Webster's Dictionary
Pastor
P`ASTOR, n. [L. from pasco, pastum, to feed.]
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds.
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of a church and congregation, whose duty is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the christian religion.
Strong's Concordance
Greek 4166
ποιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
New Testament
Ephesians 4:11-12 "And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
Some years ago I was discussing this verse with a small group of fellow-believers who were fellowshipping after our Sunday evening church service. I mentioned a study I had done on the meaning of the word "perfecting" as it is used in this passage which, according to Vine's Expository Dictionary, carries with it a sense of "completely furnishing" something or someone for a particular purpose.
Our pastor, who had been in the navy, commented that he knew of this and likened it to a naval expression. He informed us that when navy ships are fitted with guns they are said to be "furnished", and he went on to explain his thoughts on why the saints comprising the church needed to be furnished with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
At the time I pictured a fully armed warship with large guns extending from a number of turrets and understood the point being made was that of the purpose of these five God ordained offices as a protective covering for the ministering saints as they build up the body of Christ.
With regard to pastors, by definition they are to watch over the flock and provide the sheep with good pasture, also making sure they are safely watered. By promoting the spiritual health and growth of the saints in their care, pastors can be sure that the work of ministry will not be neglected and as a result the church will be built up.
However, sometimes the shepherd and the sheep don't get along too well and both become stressed, frustrated, and impatient, or even worse, hostile towards each other. There is often fault on both sides, but it is well to be warned that the church can be a dangerous place as Paul pointed out.
Acts 20:28-30 "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with his own blood. (29) For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) Also from your own selves will men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
Full Version: And God Provided Pastors
QUOTE (Michael Coldham-Fussell @ Nov 29 2008, 06:50 AM) 
Webster's Dictionary
Pastor
P`ASTOR, n. [L. from pasco, pastum, to feed.]
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds.
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of a church and congregation, whose duty is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the christian religion.
Strong's Concordance
Greek 4166
ποιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
New Testament
Ephesians 4:11-12 "And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
Some years ago I was discussing this verse with a small group of fellow-believers who were fellowshipping after our Sunday evening church service. I mentioned a study I had done on the meaning of the word "perfecting" as it is used in this passage which, according to Vine's Expository Dictionary, carries with it a sense of "completely furnishing" something or someone for a particular purpose.
Our pastor, who had been in the navy, commented that he knew of this and likened it to a naval expression. He informed us that when navy ships are fitted with guns they are said to be "furnished", and he went on to explain his thoughts on why the saints comprising the church needed to be furnished with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
At the time I pictured a fully armed warship with large guns extending from a number of turrets and understood the point being made was that of the purpose of these five God ordained offices as a protective covering for the ministering saints as they build up the body of Christ.
With regard to pastors, by definition they are to watch over the flock and provide the sheep with good pasture, also making sure they are safely watered. By promoting the spiritual health and growth of the saints in their care, pastors can be sure that the work of ministry will not be neglected and as a result the church will be built up.
However, sometimes the shepherd and the sheep don't get along too well and both become stressed, frustrated, and impatient, or even worse, hostile towards each other. There is often fault on both sides, but it is well to be warned that the church can be a dangerous place as Paul pointed out.
Acts 20:28-30 "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with his own blood. (29) For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) Also from your own selves will men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
Pastor
P`ASTOR, n. [L. from pasco, pastum, to feed.]
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds.
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of a church and congregation, whose duty is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the christian religion.
Strong's Concordance
Greek 4166
ποιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
New Testament
Ephesians 4:11-12 "And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
Some years ago I was discussing this verse with a small group of fellow-believers who were fellowshipping after our Sunday evening church service. I mentioned a study I had done on the meaning of the word "perfecting" as it is used in this passage which, according to Vine's Expository Dictionary, carries with it a sense of "completely furnishing" something or someone for a particular purpose.
Our pastor, who had been in the navy, commented that he knew of this and likened it to a naval expression. He informed us that when navy ships are fitted with guns they are said to be "furnished", and he went on to explain his thoughts on why the saints comprising the church needed to be furnished with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
At the time I pictured a fully armed warship with large guns extending from a number of turrets and understood the point being made was that of the purpose of these five God ordained offices as a protective covering for the ministering saints as they build up the body of Christ.
With regard to pastors, by definition they are to watch over the flock and provide the sheep with good pasture, also making sure they are safely watered. By promoting the spiritual health and growth of the saints in their care, pastors can be sure that the work of ministry will not be neglected and as a result the church will be built up.
However, sometimes the shepherd and the sheep don't get along too well and both become stressed, frustrated, and impatient, or even worse, hostile towards each other. There is often fault on both sides, but it is well to be warned that the church can be a dangerous place as Paul pointed out.
Acts 20:28-30 "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with his own blood. (29) For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) Also from your own selves will men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
The church can be a dangerous place....especially if one puts the words of that leader before the Words of our Father. We trust our leaders, we trust our pastors to feed us truth.....not all do. Christ warned us to "take heed lest any man deceive you," but for some reason we don't believe that "man" could possibly be our pastor. We are trusting sheep....some being led to the slaughter !
And there are good men of the Lord...appointed and called according to his purpose..who sometimes trip...but we the flock shall hold them up in prayer..least we join the wolf and turn it from one, into a gnarling pack.
We must maintain that the modern church system does not follow the intent of the word. The gift of pastor is not what we see on Sunday morning "services." A pastor, firstly, is a gift and not a paid position. A gifted pastor goes to the lost sheep and brings them back...singly. His heart is for every soul in the flock. This is the very opposite of modern practice. The closest role of the modern pastor that we see is the biblical bishop or overseer....this is not a gifting but an office based on character qualification. An overseer is one who sees to proper order in the meeting...he does not do all the talking. He merely keeps order. The gifts flow from all. An overseer does not keep people in their place, but the enemy out of it. We leave the Holy Spirit largely unemployed. Is He not grieved at our practices?
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks!
<><
John
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks!
<><
John
the problem i see is this the sheep today especialy in cyberland who come to on line forums think that they can do a better job
god holds pastors responsible if a sheep is hurt or if a sheep leavs or if a sheep is abused god wil deal with that pastor
yet a point was made by miki we sheep should pray over our pastors
do the sheep in america pray over their pastors pray over the elders pray over their leaders pray over the youth pastor pray over the sunday school teachers pray over the worship leader and the worship team do you pray over the ones who serve and have no formal roll do you pray over the ones who set up the sound set up the chairs and then the faith full ones who come in through the week clean the church up
what hurts me since i have been a member i am amazed what i am hearing when it comes to on line forums
we dont judge our pastor or our elders or our leaders or the youth pastor or the worship leader or the workers who help out
we dont tell our pastor he is not allowed to show his human side or do we tell him what to preach
we love our pastor and his wife and his family we are very protective we shield our pastor as best as we can we thank him every day i see how hard my pastor works and every sunday when i see him before the sunday morning service starts i give him a hug kiss him on both sides of the face and say i love you as a brother i thank you for the hard work you do i thank you for giving up your free time i thank you for the preaching i thank you for your committment
my pastor holds no one back he encourages new christians to use their gifts and if a new christian does not know his or her gifts he wil guide them he wil listen to them and he wil watch over them
Australian pastors dont allow what i have seen hear to destroy them or do they allow a cynical christian to have their way
my pastor is stepping back and allowing the assistant pastor and my pastors wife and a new leader to take over he is going to guide them from the side lines
i like my pastor he is an old army chaplin been in the front line prayed with wounded soldiers supported wounded soldiers and their familys always thinks of others and never focuses on his personal needs he knows he has the support from us and he knows we are keeping an eye out on him were he does not burn out and he knows if we see that he is about to burn out we tell him to take some time for him self and he knows we can do the job its not a one man show in my church everyone is involved we all help out when our pastor cant be their he has a team under him that can preach
we hold training days for potential preachers and evangelists we even have our own bible collage we get students from all over the world comming to the bible collage the bible collage students are welcomed and are treated like we treat our family members they become part of our family while they are studying and are away from their familys we do what we can also when it comes to meeting their needs and we open up our homes when we hold our confrences
who asks his or her pastor are you ok do you need prayer who says to his pastor you can be your self i know you are human or do the sheep demand that the pastor be all perfect were the pastor is not allowed to show his human side
the sheep involved in this forum are not doing their country they belong to any favors all i have seen has shown me you dont really care about your pastor you think you can do a better job
Damo
god holds pastors responsible if a sheep is hurt or if a sheep leavs or if a sheep is abused god wil deal with that pastor
yet a point was made by miki we sheep should pray over our pastors
do the sheep in america pray over their pastors pray over the elders pray over their leaders pray over the youth pastor pray over the sunday school teachers pray over the worship leader and the worship team do you pray over the ones who serve and have no formal roll do you pray over the ones who set up the sound set up the chairs and then the faith full ones who come in through the week clean the church up
what hurts me since i have been a member i am amazed what i am hearing when it comes to on line forums
we dont judge our pastor or our elders or our leaders or the youth pastor or the worship leader or the workers who help out
we dont tell our pastor he is not allowed to show his human side or do we tell him what to preach
we love our pastor and his wife and his family we are very protective we shield our pastor as best as we can we thank him every day i see how hard my pastor works and every sunday when i see him before the sunday morning service starts i give him a hug kiss him on both sides of the face and say i love you as a brother i thank you for the hard work you do i thank you for giving up your free time i thank you for the preaching i thank you for your committment
my pastor holds no one back he encourages new christians to use their gifts and if a new christian does not know his or her gifts he wil guide them he wil listen to them and he wil watch over them
Australian pastors dont allow what i have seen hear to destroy them or do they allow a cynical christian to have their way
my pastor is stepping back and allowing the assistant pastor and my pastors wife and a new leader to take over he is going to guide them from the side lines
i like my pastor he is an old army chaplin been in the front line prayed with wounded soldiers supported wounded soldiers and their familys always thinks of others and never focuses on his personal needs he knows he has the support from us and he knows we are keeping an eye out on him were he does not burn out and he knows if we see that he is about to burn out we tell him to take some time for him self and he knows we can do the job its not a one man show in my church everyone is involved we all help out when our pastor cant be their he has a team under him that can preach
we hold training days for potential preachers and evangelists we even have our own bible collage we get students from all over the world comming to the bible collage the bible collage students are welcomed and are treated like we treat our family members they become part of our family while they are studying and are away from their familys we do what we can also when it comes to meeting their needs and we open up our homes when we hold our confrences
who asks his or her pastor are you ok do you need prayer who says to his pastor you can be your self i know you are human or do the sheep demand that the pastor be all perfect were the pastor is not allowed to show his human side
the sheep involved in this forum are not doing their country they belong to any favors all i have seen has shown me you dont really care about your pastor you think you can do a better job
Damo
Adullam:
Says who??
You've been to every church in America or the world perhaps to make that judgement? Or is this an opinion based on hear say.
We take care of our Pastor so he can give his full time attention to the flock. He gives twice as much and maybe even three times as much as he's paid..
If you really think about it...compared to what he gives, his pay is but a stypen..
QUOTE
We must maintain that the modern church system does not follow the intent of the word.
Says who??
You've been to every church in America or the world perhaps to make that judgement? Or is this an opinion based on hear say.We take care of our Pastor so he can give his full time attention to the flock. He gives twice as much and maybe even three times as much as he's paid..
If you really think about it...compared to what he gives, his pay is but a stypen..
QUOTE
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks!
I don't see this at all in my church.
We are a loving family that has grown up together. We've gone through many things a family goes through. People have come and gone but the core remains faithful and true.
You've got some serious grudge issues to work our concerning the church John. Humble yourself. Consider yourself less than others. Submit and wait on the Lord. Turn the other cheek...Let God work it out with the Pastor the way we women have to wait for the Lord to work it out with our husbands.
Learn humility from women...
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Nov 30 2008, 01:09 AM)
QUOTE (Michael Coldham-Fussell @ Nov 29 2008, 06:50 AM)
Webster's Dictionary
Pastor
P`ASTOR, n. [L. from pasco, pastum, to feed.]
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds.
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of a church and congregation, whose duty is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the christian religion.
Strong's Concordance
Greek 4166
ποιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
New Testament
Ephesians 4:11-12 "And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
Some years ago I was discussing this verse with a small group of fellow-believers who were fellowshipping after our Sunday evening church service. I mentioned a study I had done on the meaning of the word "perfecting" as it is used in this passage which, according to Vine's Expository Dictionary, carries with it a sense of "completely furnishing" something or someone for a particular purpose.
Our pastor, who had been in the navy, commented that he knew of this and likened it to a naval expression. He informed us that when navy ships are fitted with guns they are said to be "furnished", and he went on to explain his thoughts on why the saints comprising the church needed to be furnished with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
At the time I pictured a fully armed warship with large guns extending from a number of turrets and understood the point being made was that of the purpose of these five God ordained offices as a protective covering for the ministering saints as they build up the body of Christ.
With regard to pastors, by definition they are to watch over the flock and provide the sheep with good pasture, also making sure they are safely watered. By promoting the spiritual health and growth of the saints in their care, pastors can be sure that the work of ministry will not be neglected and as a result the church will be built up.
However, sometimes the shepherd and the sheep don't get along too well and both become stressed, frustrated, and impatient, or even worse, hostile towards each other. There is often fault on both sides, but it is well to be warned that the church can be a dangerous place as Paul pointed out.
Acts 20:28-30 "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with his own blood. (29) For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) Also from your own selves will men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
Pastor
P`ASTOR, n. [L. from pasco, pastum, to feed.]
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds.
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of a church and congregation, whose duty is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the christian religion.
Strong's Concordance
Greek 4166
ποιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
New Testament
Ephesians 4:11-12 "And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
Some years ago I was discussing this verse with a small group of fellow-believers who were fellowshipping after our Sunday evening church service. I mentioned a study I had done on the meaning of the word "perfecting" as it is used in this passage which, according to Vine's Expository Dictionary, carries with it a sense of "completely furnishing" something or someone for a particular purpose.
Our pastor, who had been in the navy, commented that he knew of this and likened it to a naval expression. He informed us that when navy ships are fitted with guns they are said to be "furnished", and he went on to explain his thoughts on why the saints comprising the church needed to be furnished with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
At the time I pictured a fully armed warship with large guns extending from a number of turrets and understood the point being made was that of the purpose of these five God ordained offices as a protective covering for the ministering saints as they build up the body of Christ.
With regard to pastors, by definition they are to watch over the flock and provide the sheep with good pasture, also making sure they are safely watered. By promoting the spiritual health and growth of the saints in their care, pastors can be sure that the work of ministry will not be neglected and as a result the church will be built up.
However, sometimes the shepherd and the sheep don't get along too well and both become stressed, frustrated, and impatient, or even worse, hostile towards each other. There is often fault on both sides, but it is well to be warned that the church can be a dangerous place as Paul pointed out.
Acts 20:28-30 "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with his own blood. (29) For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) Also from your own selves will men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
The church can be a dangerous place....especially if one puts the words of that leader before the Words of our Father. We trust our leaders, we trust our pastors to feed us truth.....not all do. Christ warned us to "take heed lest any man deceive you," but for some reason we don't believe that "man" could possibly be our pastor. We are trusting sheep....some being led to the slaughter !
Thanks for your comment, Whirlwind. You are right on target when you cite trust as an issue.
Psalm 118:8-9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (9) It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
When I find myself being asked to accept everything a pastor says or does without question I begin to think of cults where this seems to be rule number one. Some well-meaning and mature saints adhere to an unbiblical teaching that anything short of blind, unquestioning obedience to leaders is contentious, negative, rebellious and sinful behaviour. The Bible teaches that there is a curse attached to "pastor-worship" and trusting in man.
Jeremiah 17:5-6 "Thus says the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD. (6) For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good comes; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited."
I find the acronym DIMS helpful when discerning the motives and methods of church leaders who come to my attention. Where one or more of the following elements of control is being cultivated the spiritual light of the Holy Spirit "dims" accordingly:
D - domination
I - intimidation
M - manipulation
S - seduction
My concern for the sheep in a fellowship my wife and I attended for 11 years before leaving a few years ago, still remains because in my opinion the pastor and his leadership team cannot see how elitist they have become, some even trying to persuade the flock that they are perfect and never sinning, something which numerous cult leaders resort to when their egos overrule their intelligence.
3John 1:9 "I wrote to the church: but Diotrephes, who loves to have the pre-eminence among them, receives us not."
It can be very disappointing when, having started well, a church loses its way and authorises the preaching of false doctrines by heretics and seducers. The close ties and relationships of many years become strained, ministries are undermined, and the nourishment of loving support begins to dissipate, but it is better to follow Jesus Christ the Chief Shepherd to greener pastures than to remain "cast" as the Holy Spirit "dims" under the contol of hirelings motivated by personal ambitions.
Luke 22:24-27 "And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. (25) And He said to them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them, are called benefactors. (26) But you shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that does serve. (27) For which is greater, he that sits at table, or he that serves? is not he that sits at table? but I am among you as He that serves."
QUOTE (Michael Coldham-Fussell @ Nov 30 2008, 02:33 AM)
Thanks for your comment, Whirlwind. You are right on target when you cite trust as an issue.
Psalm 118:8-9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (9) It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
When I find myself being asked to accept everything a pastor says or does without question I begin to think of cults where this seems to be rule number one. Some well-meaning and mature saints adhere to an unbiblical teaching that anything short of blind, unquestioning obedience to leaders is contentious, negative, rebellious and sinful behaviour. The Bible teaches that there is a curse attached to "pastor-worship" and trusting in man.
Jeremiah 17:5-6 "Thus says the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD. (6) For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good comes; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited."
I find the acronym DIMS helpful when discerning the motives and methods of church leaders who come to my attention. Where one or more of the following elements of control is being cultivated the spiritual light of the Holy Spirit "dims" accordingly:
D - domination
I - intimidation
M - manipulation
S - seduction
My concern for the sheep in a fellowship my wife and I attended for 11 years before leaving a few years ago, still remains because in my opinion the pastor and his leadership team cannot see how elitist they have become, some even trying to persuade the flock that they are perfect and never sinning, something which numerous cult leaders resort to when their egos overrule their intelligence.
3John 1:9 "I wrote to the church: but Diotrephes, who loves to have the pre-eminence among them, receives us not."
It can be very disappointing when, having started well, a church loses its way and authorises the preaching of false doctrines by heretics and seducers. The close ties and relationships of many years become strained, ministries are undermined, and the nourishment of loving support begins to dissipate, but it is better to follow Jesus Christ the Chief Shepherd to greener pastures than to remain "cast" as the Holy Spirit "dims" under the contol of hirelings motivated by personal ambitions.
Luke 22:24-27 "And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. (25) And He said to them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them, are called benefactors. (26) But you shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that does serve. (27) For which is greater, he that sits at table, or he that serves? is not he that sits at table? but I am among you as He that serves."
Psalm 118:8-9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (9) It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
When I find myself being asked to accept everything a pastor says or does without question I begin to think of cults where this seems to be rule number one. Some well-meaning and mature saints adhere to an unbiblical teaching that anything short of blind, unquestioning obedience to leaders is contentious, negative, rebellious and sinful behaviour. The Bible teaches that there is a curse attached to "pastor-worship" and trusting in man.
Jeremiah 17:5-6 "Thus says the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD. (6) For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good comes; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited."
I find the acronym DIMS helpful when discerning the motives and methods of church leaders who come to my attention. Where one or more of the following elements of control is being cultivated the spiritual light of the Holy Spirit "dims" accordingly:
D - domination
I - intimidation
M - manipulation
S - seduction
My concern for the sheep in a fellowship my wife and I attended for 11 years before leaving a few years ago, still remains because in my opinion the pastor and his leadership team cannot see how elitist they have become, some even trying to persuade the flock that they are perfect and never sinning, something which numerous cult leaders resort to when their egos overrule their intelligence.
3John 1:9 "I wrote to the church: but Diotrephes, who loves to have the pre-eminence among them, receives us not."
It can be very disappointing when, having started well, a church loses its way and authorises the preaching of false doctrines by heretics and seducers. The close ties and relationships of many years become strained, ministries are undermined, and the nourishment of loving support begins to dissipate, but it is better to follow Jesus Christ the Chief Shepherd to greener pastures than to remain "cast" as the Holy Spirit "dims" under the contol of hirelings motivated by personal ambitions.
Luke 22:24-27 "And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. (25) And He said to them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them, are called benefactors. (26) But you shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that does serve. (27) For which is greater, he that sits at table, or he that serves? is not he that sits at table? but I am among you as He that serves."
I'm not a normal "church goer" but a few months ago my in-laws invited my husband and me to attend a newly organzing church, non-denominational, that a retired pastor felt "led by God" to begin. He is a wonderful speaker....interesting and educational. He does seem to be led by God.
I have been deeply into the Bible for the past three years so much of what he taught was milk but I did learn from him. I attend mainly for my husband as he will listen to and learn from the pastor. A few weeks ago he began to preach on rapture. My heart dropped. I looked around at all the folks believing everything he was saying and just shook my head.
Oddly he, as most do, quoted from 1 Thessalonians and then went to 11 Thessalonians and even read the scripture that refuted rapture and didn't pause. Of course I explained to my husband why he shouldn't believe what was taught...through scripture. But, how many others in this world believe that lie? I wonder if that is the lie spoken of here.....
11 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they shouldBELIEVE A LIE:
But...it is difficult to be believed, even when showing Scripture, when one in authority says something else. Many that I know believe the rapture because it is what they are taught. Once, when gently trying to explain to a sister-in-law why it couldn't be she said..."oh, but you should listen to my Pastor." I said but Christ said in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.... She just shook her head and said, "My Pastor explains it...I'll send you a tape."
So, I believe we should learn what we can from others for the Holy Spirit could be speaking through them but we MUST always test what is taught from His Word.
MF says:
Sorry Michael..I must respond too. See I've never been asked to do this by my Pastor. He's admittedly a humble man who reminds us of his mistakes and sometimes ours as well. He says he feels embarrassed sometimes when he looks back on some of his sermons..But all that shows me is, he's growing like the rest of us. I don't expect him to be any more than he is.
People who look to the Pastor to be perfect are the ones that walk out the door.
On the rapture...My Pastor is pre..He doesn't preach on it. He talks about it but always includes what other think on the contrary and my church is totally mixed. My Sunday school teacher is a Dr. and Professor and he's mid...There's a women that's a retired doctor that is post and one of the most legalistic women in the church... along time member also is post...But l only know about a hundred of the 400 or so that attend. Hardly anybody discusses there position. We are mixed.I know two families that voted Obama.
Whirlwind.. It's true about milk. There is a lot...But what l said on another string: I've come to the conclusion that the Pastor mostly ministers to the babes and lukewarm. He has to. Those of us mature in Christ must take responsibility for our own study...relying heavily on the Holy Spirit but with the availability of someone to question. One of the teachers is to busy to answer questions. Then another one, with a bigger heart, will answer it to exhaustion. We're all different in our stages of development.
You folks shouldn't generalize what you think is going on in the church as a whole... You don't know..Help your Pastor. If his position is different than yours oh well...Don't talk about it if you know what you believe. I lean heavily to pre but have seen much evidence to mid...I've never believed post.
There will be believers spread through out the 7 years..Some will be taken out first...some loose their heads and some will struggle on to the end. So for each of those groups different portions of scripture will apply. These scriptures will bring hope through the word through the entire 7 years.
QUOTE
When I find myself being asked to accept everything a pastor says or does without question I begin to think of cults where this seems to be rule number one. Some well-meaning and mature saints adhere to an unbiblical teaching that anything short of blind, unquestioning obedience to leaders is contentious, negative, rebellious and sinful behaviour. The Bible teaches that there is a curse attached to "pastor-worship" and trusting in man.
Sorry Michael..I must respond too. See I've never been asked to do this by my Pastor. He's admittedly a humble man who reminds us of his mistakes and sometimes ours as well. He says he feels embarrassed sometimes when he looks back on some of his sermons..But all that shows me is, he's growing like the rest of us. I don't expect him to be any more than he is.
People who look to the Pastor to be perfect are the ones that walk out the door.
On the rapture...My Pastor is pre..He doesn't preach on it. He talks about it but always includes what other think on the contrary and my church is totally mixed. My Sunday school teacher is a Dr. and Professor and he's mid...There's a women that's a retired doctor that is post and one of the most legalistic women in the church... along time member also is post...But l only know about a hundred of the 400 or so that attend. Hardly anybody discusses there position. We are mixed.I know two families that voted Obama.
Whirlwind.. It's true about milk. There is a lot...But what l said on another string: I've come to the conclusion that the Pastor mostly ministers to the babes and lukewarm. He has to. Those of us mature in Christ must take responsibility for our own study...relying heavily on the Holy Spirit but with the availability of someone to question. One of the teachers is to busy to answer questions. Then another one, with a bigger heart, will answer it to exhaustion. We're all different in our stages of development.
You folks shouldn't generalize what you think is going on in the church as a whole... You don't know..Help your Pastor. If his position is different than yours oh well...Don't talk about it if you know what you believe. I lean heavily to pre but have seen much evidence to mid...I've never believed post.
There will be believers spread through out the 7 years..Some will be taken out first...some loose their heads and some will struggle on to the end. So for each of those groups different portions of scripture will apply. These scriptures will bring hope through the word through the entire 7 years.
QUOTE (damo7 @ Nov 29 2008, 02:26 PM)
the problem i see is this the sheep today especialy in cyberland who come to on line forums think that they can do a better job
god holds pastors responsible if a sheep is hurt or if a sheep leavs or if a sheep is abused god wil deal with that pastor
yet a point was made by miki we sheep should pray over our pastors
do the sheep in america pray over their pastors pray over the elders pray over their leaders pray over the youth pastor pray over the sunday school teachers pray over the worship leader and the worship team do you pray over the ones who serve and have no formal roll do you pray over the ones who set up the sound set up the chairs and then the faith full ones who come in through the week clean the church up
what hurts me since i have been a member i am amazed what i am hearing when it comes to on line forums
we dont judge our pastor or our elders or our leaders or the youth pastor or the worship leader or the workers who help out
we dont tell our pastor he is not allowed to show his human side or do we tell him what to preach
we love our pastor and his wife and his family we are very protective we shield our pastor as best as we can we thank him every day i see how hard my pastor works and every sunday when i see him before the sunday morning service starts i give him a hug kiss him on both sides of the face and say i love you as a brother i thank you for the hard work you do i thank you for giving up your free time i thank you for the preaching i thank you for your committment
my pastor holds no one back he encourages new christians to use their gifts and if a new christian does not know his or her gifts he wil guide them he wil listen to them and he wil watch over them
Australian pastors dont allow what i have seen hear to destroy them or do they allow a cynical christian to have their way
my pastor is stepping back and allowing the assistant pastor and my pastors wife and a new leader to take over he is going to guide them from the side lines
i like my pastor he is an old army chaplin been in the front line prayed with wounded soldiers supported wounded soldiers and their familys always thinks of others and never focuses on his personal needs he knows he has the support from us and he knows we are keeping an eye out on him were he does not burn out and he knows if we see that he is about to burn out we tell him to take some time for him self and he knows we can do the job its not a one man show in my church everyone is involved we all help out when our pastor cant be their he has a team under him that can preach
we hold training days for potential preachers and evangelists we even have our own bible collage we get students from all over the world comming to the bible collage the bible collage students are welcomed and are treated like we treat our family members they become part of our family while they are studying and are away from their familys we do what we can also when it comes to meeting their needs and we open up our homes when we hold our confrences
who asks his or her pastor are you ok do you need prayer who says to his pastor you can be your self i know you are human or do the sheep demand that the pastor be all perfect were the pastor is not allowed to show his human side
the sheep involved in this forum are not doing their country they belong to any favors all i have seen has shown me you dont really care about your pastor you think you can do a better job
Damo
god holds pastors responsible if a sheep is hurt or if a sheep leavs or if a sheep is abused god wil deal with that pastor
yet a point was made by miki we sheep should pray over our pastors
do the sheep in america pray over their pastors pray over the elders pray over their leaders pray over the youth pastor pray over the sunday school teachers pray over the worship leader and the worship team do you pray over the ones who serve and have no formal roll do you pray over the ones who set up the sound set up the chairs and then the faith full ones who come in through the week clean the church up
what hurts me since i have been a member i am amazed what i am hearing when it comes to on line forums
we dont judge our pastor or our elders or our leaders or the youth pastor or the worship leader or the workers who help out
we dont tell our pastor he is not allowed to show his human side or do we tell him what to preach
we love our pastor and his wife and his family we are very protective we shield our pastor as best as we can we thank him every day i see how hard my pastor works and every sunday when i see him before the sunday morning service starts i give him a hug kiss him on both sides of the face and say i love you as a brother i thank you for the hard work you do i thank you for giving up your free time i thank you for the preaching i thank you for your committment
my pastor holds no one back he encourages new christians to use their gifts and if a new christian does not know his or her gifts he wil guide them he wil listen to them and he wil watch over them
Australian pastors dont allow what i have seen hear to destroy them or do they allow a cynical christian to have their way
my pastor is stepping back and allowing the assistant pastor and my pastors wife and a new leader to take over he is going to guide them from the side lines
i like my pastor he is an old army chaplin been in the front line prayed with wounded soldiers supported wounded soldiers and their familys always thinks of others and never focuses on his personal needs he knows he has the support from us and he knows we are keeping an eye out on him were he does not burn out and he knows if we see that he is about to burn out we tell him to take some time for him self and he knows we can do the job its not a one man show in my church everyone is involved we all help out when our pastor cant be their he has a team under him that can preach
we hold training days for potential preachers and evangelists we even have our own bible collage we get students from all over the world comming to the bible collage the bible collage students are welcomed and are treated like we treat our family members they become part of our family while they are studying and are away from their familys we do what we can also when it comes to meeting their needs and we open up our homes when we hold our confrences
who asks his or her pastor are you ok do you need prayer who says to his pastor you can be your self i know you are human or do the sheep demand that the pastor be all perfect were the pastor is not allowed to show his human side
the sheep involved in this forum are not doing their country they belong to any favors all i have seen has shown me you dont really care about your pastor you think you can do a better job
Damo My dear Damo,
We do not condemn people, only practices. If we went only on the possible effect of truth on people we would never advance but be stuck in a place where we wouldn't want to offend any person based on their practice.
If a person tries to write with a non-sharpened pencil...we do not condemn the potential writer, but merely point out that the pencil should be sharpened. If a person is insulted by the suggestion...well we are only trying to help.
Truth has no friends. Truth is! We come together within the truth....that is true unity. Being in error together has no real merit. We must obey the word and the Spirit on any matter.
Many pastors are very devoted and well meaning. Many do a good job with what they have. But it is the system we are talking about. We believe in a powerful God...not a powerful system.
<><
John
QUOTE (Miki @ Nov 29 2008, 07:17 PM)
QUOTE
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks!
I don't see this at all in my church.
We are a loving family that has grown up together. We've gone through many things a family goes through. People have come and gone but the core remains faithful and true.
You've got some serious grudge issues to work our concerning the church John. Humble yourself. Consider yourself less than others. Submit and wait on the Lord. Turn the other cheek...Let God work it out with the Pastor the way we women have to wait for the Lord to work it out with our husbands.
Learn humility from women...
Miki,
One must accept that the pastoral system is biblical first. Why not all return to the Catholic church and at least be unified? Why don't we just pray for the pope? To half-reform a system and then call for a moratorium on discernment is not playing fair. Are we bound...or free in Christ?
If we are going to play putting up with what we have...why not all become Jewish? We can submit to a rabbi and pray he meet Christ one day. Then we can all get along. Should we move backwards or remain at our present level, or can we grow and move forward?
<><
John
Some "grow" right off of the road and into the ditch .... and then take the magic carpet ride
QUOTE (Stephen @ Nov 30 2008, 12:05 PM)
Some "grow" right off of the road and into the ditch .... and then take the magic carpet ride
Others confuse the status quo with the kingdom of heaven and call it holy.
QUOTE (Miki @ Dec 1 2008, 02:45 AM)
MF says:
Sorry Michael..I must respond too. See I've never been asked to do this by my Pastor. He's admittedly a humble man who reminds us of his mistakes and sometimes ours as well. He says he feels embarrassed sometimes when he looks back on some of his sermons..But all that shows me is, he's growing like the rest of us. I don't expect him to be any more than he is.
People who look to the Pastor to be perfect are the ones that walk out the door.
QUOTE
When I find myself being asked to accept everything a pastor says or does without question I begin to think of cults where this seems to be rule number one. Some well-meaning and mature saints adhere to an unbiblical teaching that anything short of blind, unquestioning obedience to leaders is contentious, negative, rebellious and sinful behaviour. The Bible teaches that there is a curse attached to "pastor-worship" and trusting in man.
Sorry Michael..I must respond too. See I've never been asked to do this by my Pastor. He's admittedly a humble man who reminds us of his mistakes and sometimes ours as well. He says he feels embarrassed sometimes when he looks back on some of his sermons..But all that shows me is, he's growing like the rest of us. I don't expect him to be any more than he is.
People who look to the Pastor to be perfect are the ones that walk out the door.
Thanks for your insights, Miki. You are truly blessed in your church.
I am pleased to learn of your humble pastor who admits to his mistakes. He would not forget that Christ came to serve and would not use Scripture to convince his flock that he "has got it all", is perfect, doesn't need to pray for anything, and has no further use for repentance now that he is saved.
Nor, I hope, would your pastor contradict Scripture by saying that "all things DON'T always work together for good for those who love God and are the called according to His purpose so we CAN'T unreservedly believe Romans 8:28 ".
Also, if your pastor understands the Scriptures sufficiently and doesn't mix them up with gnostic philosophies, he would not preach and teach that Christ didn't really die, when Christ Himself tells us that He did.
Revelation 1:18 "I am He that lives, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
A faithful pastor and Bible-believing preacher would search for and carefully study some of these Scriptures regarding Christ's death before discounting its significance or completely denying that it actually was a real physical, human death, as are some heretics and false prophets in my neck of the woods.
Romans 5:6-8 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die. (8) But God commends His love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 5:10 "For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son; much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Romans 6:3-5 " Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into His death? (4) Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:"
Romans 6:9-10 "Knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more; death has no more dominion over Him. (10) For in that He died, He died to sin once: but in that He lives, He lives to God."
1Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show the Lord's death till He shall come."
Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross."
Philippians 3:10 "That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death;"
Colossians 1:21 " And you, that were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has He reconciled, (22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in His sight:"
Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
Hebrews 9:15-17 "And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they who are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. (17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator lives."
1Peter 3:18 "For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:"
When the weight of Scripture says that Christ died a very real and eternally significant death but the pastors and elders of a church condone the preaching of doctrines which disagree with this and expect church members to honour both them and the heretics they support, it is time for discerning Bible-believers to voice their concern.
Praise God for Bible-believing pastors who feed their flocks on the truth of Scripture rather than heretical garbage and apostate nonsense.
Michael...I've never heard that people don't believe that Christ really died. Curious...Really? That's an argument? However I never knew people argued about the trinity either. Maybe l should be more worldly so l know what people fight about? 
All things working together for good? Well...yes...However to qualify that. We do loose some battles... but win the war. God uses our losses.
My Pastor reminds us...that life isn't fair.. My thought is...that
God provides a Way...
in a manger
"gnostic philosophies" There are plenty of those around but the powerful drawing force of the Lord will suck those truely seeking him out of the quicksand.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adullam...you're not grasping at straws. You're grasping at something that doesn't even exist.
Learn to respect and submit. That's your problem and you're looking for a way out by trying to say that scripture says we shouldn't have Pastors nor support them financially. We take care of our own...Our Pastor lives like one of us..They've done with out many many times for the sake of the flock.
You've got issues. Love people with your tithes...It will come back to bless you.
All things working together for good? Well...yes...However to qualify that. We do loose some battles... but win the war. God uses our losses.
My Pastor reminds us...that life isn't fair.. My thought is...that
God provides a Way...
in a manger
"gnostic philosophies" There are plenty of those around but the powerful drawing force of the Lord will suck those truely seeking him out of the quicksand.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adullam...you're not grasping at straws. You're grasping at something that doesn't even exist.
Learn to respect and submit. That's your problem and you're looking for a way out by trying to say that scripture says we shouldn't have Pastors nor support them financially. We take care of our own...Our Pastor lives like one of us..They've done with out many many times for the sake of the flock.
You've got issues. Love people with your tithes...It will come back to bless you.
QUOTE (Michael Coldham-Fussell @ Dec 1 2008, 02:14 AM)
Thanks for your insights, Miki. You are truly blessed in your church.
I am pleased to learn of your humble pastor who admits to his mistakes. He would not forget that Christ came to serve and would not use Scripture to convince his flock that he "has got it all", is perfect, doesn't need to pray for anything, and has no further use for repentance now that he is saved.
Nor, I hope, would your pastor contradict Scripture by saying that "all things DON'T always work together for good for those who love God and are the called according to His purpose so we CAN'T unreservedly believe Romans 8:28 ".
Also, if your pastor understands the Scriptures sufficiently and doesn't mix them up with gnostic philosophies, he would not preach and teach that Christ didn't really die, when Christ Himself tells us that He did.
Revelation 1:18 "I am He that lives, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
A faithful pastor and Bible-believing preacher would search for and carefully study some of these Scriptures regarding Christ's death before discounting its significance or completely denying that it actually was a real physical, human death, as are some heretics and false prophets in my neck of the woods.
Romans 5:6-8 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die. (8) But God commends His love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 5:10 "For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son; much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Romans 6:3-5 " Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into His death? (4) Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:"
Romans 6:9-10 "Knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more; death has no more dominion over Him. (10) For in that He died, He died to sin once: but in that He lives, He lives to God."
1Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show the Lord's death till He shall come."
Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross."
Philippians 3:10 "That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death;"
Colossians 1:21 " And you, that were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has He reconciled, (22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in His sight:"
Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
Hebrews 9:15-17 "And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they who are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. (17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator lives."
1Peter 3:18 "For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:"
When the weight of Scripture says that Christ died a very real and eternally significant death but the pastors and elders of a church condone the preaching of doctrines which disagree with this and expect church members to honour both them and the heretics they support, it is time for discerning Bible-believers to voice their concern.
Praise God for Bible-believing pastors who feed their flocks on the truth of Scripture rather than heretical garbage and apostate nonsense.
I am pleased to learn of your humble pastor who admits to his mistakes. He would not forget that Christ came to serve and would not use Scripture to convince his flock that he "has got it all", is perfect, doesn't need to pray for anything, and has no further use for repentance now that he is saved.
Nor, I hope, would your pastor contradict Scripture by saying that "all things DON'T always work together for good for those who love God and are the called according to His purpose so we CAN'T unreservedly believe Romans 8:28 ".
Also, if your pastor understands the Scriptures sufficiently and doesn't mix them up with gnostic philosophies, he would not preach and teach that Christ didn't really die, when Christ Himself tells us that He did.
Revelation 1:18 "I am He that lives, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
A faithful pastor and Bible-believing preacher would search for and carefully study some of these Scriptures regarding Christ's death before discounting its significance or completely denying that it actually was a real physical, human death, as are some heretics and false prophets in my neck of the woods.
Romans 5:6-8 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die. (8) But God commends His love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 5:10 "For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son; much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Romans 6:3-5 " Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into His death? (4) Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:"
Romans 6:9-10 "Knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more; death has no more dominion over Him. (10) For in that He died, He died to sin once: but in that He lives, He lives to God."
1Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show the Lord's death till He shall come."
Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross."
Philippians 3:10 "That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death;"
Colossians 1:21 " And you, that were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has He reconciled, (22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in His sight:"
Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
Hebrews 9:15-17 "And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they who are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. (17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator lives."
1Peter 3:18 "For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:"
When the weight of Scripture says that Christ died a very real and eternally significant death but the pastors and elders of a church condone the preaching of doctrines which disagree with this and expect church members to honour both them and the heretics they support, it is time for discerning Bible-believers to voice their concern.
Praise God for Bible-believing pastors who feed their flocks on the truth of Scripture rather than heretical garbage and apostate nonsense.
Someone, a pastor, teaches Christ didn't die?
1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: And I WOULD NOT THAT YE SHOULD HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH DEVILS.ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and the table of devils.
10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils:
Having a dispute on the meaning of certain scriptures is one thing but.....on the death of Christ !
I would run....not walk to the nearest exit and take everyone I could with me.
QUOTE (Miki @ Dec 1 2008, 07:42 AM)
Michael...I've never heard that people don't believe that Christ really died. Curious...Really? That's an argument? However I never knew people argued about the trinity either. Maybe l should be more worldly so l know what people fight about?
All things working together for good? Well...yes...However to qualify that. We do loose some battles... but win the war. God uses our losses.
My Pastor reminds us...that life isn't fair.. My thought is...that
God provides a Way...
in a manger
"gnostic philosophies" There are plenty of those around but the powerful drawing force of the Lord will suck those truely seeking him out of the quicksand.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adullam...you're not grasping at straws. You're grasping at something that doesn't even exist.
Learn to respect and submit. That's your problem and you're looking for a way out by trying to say that scripture says we shouldn't have Pastors nor support them financially. We take care of our own...Our Pastor lives like one of us..They've done with out many many times for the sake of the flock.
You've got issues. Love people with your tithes...It will come back to bless you.
All things working together for good? Well...yes...However to qualify that. We do loose some battles... but win the war. God uses our losses.
My Pastor reminds us...that life isn't fair.. My thought is...that
God provides a Way...
in a manger
"gnostic philosophies" There are plenty of those around but the powerful drawing force of the Lord will suck those truely seeking him out of the quicksand.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adullam...you're not grasping at straws. You're grasping at something that doesn't even exist.
Learn to respect and submit. That's your problem and you're looking for a way out by trying to say that scripture says we shouldn't have Pastors nor support them financially. We take care of our own...Our Pastor lives like one of us..They've done with out many many times for the sake of the flock.
You've got issues. Love people with your tithes...It will come back to bless you.
God bless the pope!?!?
What are you talking about? What does my Pastor or any good Pastor have to do with the Pope?
QUOTE (Miki @ Dec 2 2008, 12:27 AM)
What are you talking about? What does my Pastor or any good Pastor have to do with the Pope?
"What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together,
everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction,
a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation." 1 Cor 14:26
While young, and over the years, I have attended hundreds, if not over a thousand "Church services"
under the auspices of the Methodist, Baptist [Southern, Northern, MidWestern, Hardshell, Softshell, and no Shell] , Episcopalian, and even attended 2 RC services.
NONE of these "Church services" were conducted in accord with 1 Cor 14. NONE
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?
37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted,
let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
Naturally, all the leaders of these "Church services" [ie pastors] baptized in WATER.
Whereas Jesus's baptism in Jesus's Spirit is the ONE baptism we all need.
"I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.
For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words;
and not satisfied with this,
he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so
and puts them out of the church." 3 John 1:9-10
Evidently the apostle John ran across a "pastor" who was something of a "prima donna"
Fact is: some/many "pastors" act very much like "popes" of their little fiefdoms.
What do you think Jeremiah was saying, "I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee. . ."?
Jeremiah 17
5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
15Behold, they say unto me, Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.
16As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
QUOTE (Adullam @ Nov 29 2008, 11:46 AM)
We must maintain that the modern church system does not follow the intent of the word. The gift of pastor is not what we see on Sunday morning "services." A pastor, firstly, is a gift and not a paid position. A gifted pastor goes to the lost sheep and brings them back...singly. His heart is for every soul in the flock. This is the very opposite of modern practice. The closest role of the modern pastor that we see is the biblical bishop or overseer....this is not a gifting but an office based on character qualification. An overseer is one who sees to proper order in the meeting...he does not do all the talking. He merely keeps order. The gifts flow from all. An overseer does not keep people in their place, but the enemy out of it. We leave the Holy Spirit largely unemployed. Is He not grieved at our practices?
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks!
<><
John
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks!
<><
John
John :
I am serious, about this question ?
Help me, understand !
What do you think Jeremiah was saying, "I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee. . ."?
Jeremiah 17
5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
15Behold, they say unto me, Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.
16As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
QUOTE (Adullam @ Nov 29 2008, 11:46 AM)
We must maintain that the modern church system does not follow the intent of the word. The gift of pastor is not what we see on Sunday morning "services." A pastor, firstly, is a gift and not a paid position. A gifted pastor goes to the lost sheep and brings them back...singly. His heart is for every soul in the flock. This is the very opposite of modern practice. The closest role of the modern pastor that we see is the biblical bishop or overseer....this is not a gifting but an office based on character qualification. An overseer is one who sees to proper order in the meeting...he does not do all the talking. He merely keeps order. The gifts flow from all. An overseer does not keep people in their place, but the enemy out of it. We leave the Holy Spirit largely unemployed. Is He not grieved at our practices?
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks! John
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks!
JohnQUOTE (crownsevenalphabet @ Dec 3 2008, 11:54 AM)
John : I am serious, about this question ? Help me, understand !
What do you think Jeremiah was saying, "I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee. . ."?
..................................
16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee:
neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
Jeremiah 17:16
What do you think Jeremiah was saying, "I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee. . ."?
..................................
16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee:
neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
Jeremiah 17:16
I looked at this verse in multiple translations, as no doubt you did, ..........
..... it looks to me like Jeremiah is reminding the Lord that Jeremiah has been a faithful servant
and has cared about the welfare of the people that God ordained/sent Jeremiah to speak to/warn.
QUOTE (crownsevenalphabet @ Dec 3 2008, 05:50 PM)
What do you think Jeremiah was saying, "I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee. . ."?
Jeremiah 17
5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
15Behold, they say unto me, Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.
16As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
Jeremiah 17
5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
15Behold, they say unto me, Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.
16As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
Thanks for asking this question, CSA; it very much ties in with our expanding discussion.
I think John P. is right when he says Jeremiah is reminding God of the faithful servant he has been. According to an old Bible commentary I use, in Old Testament times the word "pastor" was applied to anyone in leadership, be it kings, rulers, priests or government officials.
The following 8 verses lend support to this assertion and indicate that throughout the book that bears his name, Jeremiah shows a God-given concern about the corrupt ministrations of Israel's backslidden "pastors".
Jeremiah 2:8 "The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit."
Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to my heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."
Jeremiah 10:21 "For the pastors have become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered."
Jeremiah 12:10 "Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness."
Jeremiah 22:22 "The wind shall eat up all your pastors, and your lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shall you be ashamed and confounded for all your wickedness."
Jeremiah 23:1-2 "Woe be to the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! says the LORD. (2) Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, says the LORD."
Compare the prophet's words in:
Jeremiah 17:16 "As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow you: neither have I desired the woeful day; you know: that which was uttered by my lips was right before you."
with the dialogue in the opening verses of this book:
Jeremiah 1:4-10 "Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, (5) Before I formed you in embryo I knew you; and before you were born I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations. (6) Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. (7) But the LORD said to me, Say not, I am a child: for you shall go to all that I shall send you, and whatever I command you this you shall speak. (8) Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with you to deliver you, says the LORD. (9) Then the LORD put forth His hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said to me, Behold, I have put my words in your mouth. (10) See, I have this day set you over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant."
Obviously Jeremiah did not ask to become a prophet, or pastor, or leader, but God knew he would not decline the vocation and ordained him so to be. There is a strong sense of God's calling in Jeremiah which he does not deny, even though it seems to bring him nothing but heartache and trouble...and isn't it often the same for those who move in a similar spiritual gifting today?
Thank you, John P. & Michael :
The beginning of the month of November, the Lord dealt with me about Jeremiah.
And below I have posted the excerpts to blend, with this topic :
~And God Provided Pastors, The Purpose of The Pastor~
THE SUMMARY I WAS GRANTED IS :
Cast out the broken cisterns that cannot hold water, seek the rebirth
of your first love, Jesus Christ our Messiah, bridegroom.
And I think John P. had a great answer :
..... it looks to me like Jeremiah is reminding the Lord that Jeremiah has been a faithful servant
and has cared about the welfare of the people that God ordained/sent Jeremiah to speak to/warn.
And Michael, such truth in these words :
Obviously Jeremiah did not ask to become a prophet, or pastor, or leader, but God knew he would not decline the vocation and ordained him so to be. There is a strong sense of God's calling in Jeremiah which he does not deny, even though it seems to bring him nothing but heartache and trouble...and isn't it often the same for those who move in a similar spiritual gifting today?
I end my thought, sharing the message (Jeremiah 17) by
reposting the verse:
16As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
Pray, we all know as Adullam expressed, this message :
Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God.
crownsevenalphabet
Nov 2 2008, 07:32 PM
Jeremiah Roped Down Into Muddy Cistern [parallel's], Joshua’s spies roped down Rahab’s wall
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...t=0&start=0
The Water :
Jeremiah 2:13
My people have committed two sins :
() They have forsaken me,
the spring of living waters,
() . . . and have dug their own cisterns,
broken cisterns that cannot hold water.
We read clearly that IHVH is described, as :
THE SPRING OF LIVING WATERS
Note:
Just as the water brakes, to allow the womb to give forth the life of
the child, bring forth the knowledge of `the spring of living waters`, for eternal life.
Do not forsake the spring of living waters [IHVH].
Cast out the broken cisterns that cannot hold water, seek the rebirth
of your first love, Jesus Christ our Messiah, bridegroom.
Preaching
The preacher was wired for sound with a lapel mike, and as he preached, he moved briskly about the platform, jerking the mike cord as he went.
Then he moved to one side, getting wound up in the cord and nearly tripping before jerking it again.
After several circles and jerks, a little girl in the third pew leaned toward her mother and whispered, "If he gets loose, will he hurt us?"
QUOTE (crownsevenalphabet @ Dec 3 2008, 12:22 PM)
Preaching
The preacher was wired for sound with a lapel mike, and as he preached, he moved briskly about the platform, jerking the mike cord as he went.
Then he moved to one side, getting wound up in the cord and nearly tripping before jerking it again.
After several circles and jerks, a little girl in the third pew leaned toward her mother and whispered, "If he gets loose, will he hurt us?"
The preacher was wired for sound with a lapel mike, and as he preached, he moved briskly about the platform, jerking the mike cord as he went.
Then he moved to one side, getting wound up in the cord and nearly tripping before jerking it again.
After several circles and jerks, a little girl in the third pew leaned toward her mother and whispered, "If he gets loose, will he hurt us?"
The sad fact is....some hurt you more by being wired for sound.
QUOTE (Michael Coldham-Fussell @ Dec 3 2008, 06:18 AM)
QUOTE (crownsevenalphabet @ Dec 3 2008, 05:50 PM)
What do you think Jeremiah was saying, "I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee. . ."?
Jeremiah 17
5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
15Behold, they say unto me, Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.
16As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
Jeremiah 17
5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
15Behold, they say unto me, Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.
16As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
Thanks for asking this question, CSA; it very much ties in with our expanding discussion.
I think John P. is right when he says Jeremiah is reminding God of the faithful servant he has been. According to an old Bible commentary I use, in Old Testament times the word "pastor" was applied to anyone in leadership, be it kings, rulers, priests or government officials.
The following 8 verses lend support to this assertion and indicate that throughout the book that bears his name, Jeremiah shows a God-given concern about the corrupt ministrations of Israel's backslidden "pastors".
Jeremiah 2:8 "The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit."
Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to my heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."
Jeremiah 10:21 "For the pastors have become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered."
Jeremiah 12:10 "Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness."
Jeremiah 22:22 "The wind shall eat up all your pastors, and your lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shall you be ashamed and confounded for all your wickedness."
Jeremiah 23:1-2 "Woe be to the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! says the LORD. (2) Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, says the LORD."
Compare the prophet's words in:
Jeremiah 17:16 "As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow you: neither have I desired the woeful day; you know: that which was uttered by my lips was right before you."
with the dialogue in the opening verses of this book:
Jeremiah 1:4-10 "Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, (5) Before I formed you in embryo I knew you; and before you were born I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations. (6) Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. (7) But the LORD said to me, Say not, I am a child: for you shall go to all that I shall send you, and whatever I command you this you shall speak. (8) Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with you to deliver you, says the LORD. (9) Then the LORD put forth His hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said to me, Behold, I have put my words in your mouth. (10) See, I have this day set you over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant."
Obviously Jeremiah did not ask to become a prophet, or pastor, or leader, but God knew he would not decline the vocation and ordained him so to be. There is a strong sense of God's calling in Jeremiah which he does not deny, even though it seems to bring him nothing but heartache and trouble...and isn't it often the same for those who move in a similar spiritual gifting today?
I just "googled" you because of your style of writing and truly interesting name. I enjoyed the "naturalist" essay.
QUOTE (Adullam @ Nov 29 2008, 11:46 AM)
We must maintain that the modern church system does not follow the intent of the word. The gift of pastor is not what we see on Sunday morning "services." A pastor, firstly, is a gift and not a paid position. A gifted pastor goes to the lost sheep and brings them back...singly. His heart is for every soul in the flock. This is the very opposite of modern practice. The closest role of the modern pastor that we see is the biblical bishop or overseer....this is not a gifting but an office based on character qualification. An overseer is one who sees to proper order in the meeting...he does not do all the talking. He merely keeps order. The gifts flow from all. An overseer does not keep people in their place, but the enemy out of it. We leave the Holy Spirit largely unemployed. Is He not grieved at our practices?
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks!
<><
John
Rather the modern pastor replaces the Catholic priest...and before that the pagan priest who performed ceremonies for all the people while they watched. The pagan spectacle has infiltrated the church order to a large extent. Even in the Jewish system, the more sacred things were done in secret...before a living God. The pagan knows that he must make the people happy above all. Sound familiar? Get your program, folks!
<><
John
Do you remember this ?
Trapped In A Church
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...=21442&st=0
This is how we no we got a good preacher from the lord, brother and sisters.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Ecclesiastes 12:9 - And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
Ecclesiastes 12:10 - The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
Pay attention, brother and sisters
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Ecclesiastes 12:9 - And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
Ecclesiastes 12:10 - The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
Pay attention, brother and sisters
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
QUOTE (Bro.Tan @ Dec 3 2008, 05:37 PM)
This is how we no we got a good preacher from the lord, brother and sisters.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Ecclesiastes 12:9 - And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
Ecclesiastes 12:10 - The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
Pay attention, brother and sisters
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Ecclesiastes 12:9 - And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
Ecclesiastes 12:10 - The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
Pay attention, brother and sisters
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Very choice/select scriptures.
Thank you, Bro. Tan !
"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"
>A must for the student and teacher of the Lord's Word
>There is no other way that works
>A must for the student and teacher of the Lord's Word
>There is no other way that works
QUOTE (crownsevenalphabet @ Dec 3 2008, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (Bro.Tan @ Dec 3 2008, 05:37 PM)
This is how we no we got a good preacher from the lord, brother and sisters.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Ecclesiastes 12:9 - And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
Ecclesiastes 12:10 - The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
Pay attention, brother and sisters
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Ecclesiastes 12:9 - And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
Ecclesiastes 12:10 - The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
Pay attention, brother and sisters
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Very choice/select scriptures.
Thank you, Bro. Tan !
Praise the Lord
peace in jesus name
We tend to think as the world thinks. God's way is inversely proportional to volume and numbers. I don't like the use of microphones in a church meeting. That is unless all are issued them...which is of course out of the question. People learn much more from a dialogue than a monologue, anyway. The microphone is useful for crowd control and in a performance/entertainement role....but in the assembly?!??
If there are so many people that want to be taught...then do it in smaller more intimate gatherings. It just seems that the more bibles, teachings, volume and numbers we have, the less faith we have. Or is it just Jesus (and possibly a few followers ) that notices these things? 
<><
John
If there are so many people that want to be taught...then do it in smaller more intimate gatherings. It just seems that the more bibles, teachings, volume and numbers we have, the less faith we have. Or is it just Jesus (and possibly a few followers
) that notices these things? <><
John
QUOTE (Adullam @ Dec 4 2008, 06:12 PM)
We tend to think as the world thinks. God's way is inversely proportional to volume and numbers. I don't like the use of microphones in a church meeting. That is unless all are issued them...which is of course out of the question. People learn much more from a dialogue than a monologue, anyway. The microphone is useful for crowd control and in a performance/entertainement role....but in the assembly?!??
If there are so many people that want to be taught...then do it in smaller more intimate gatherings. It just seems that the more bibles, teachings, volume and numbers we have, the less faith we have. Or is it just Jesus (and possibly a few followers ) that notices these things?
<><
John
If there are so many people that want to be taught...then do it in smaller more intimate gatherings. It just seems that the more bibles, teachings, volume and numbers we have, the less faith we have. Or is it just Jesus (and possibly a few followers
) that notices these things? <><
John
John :
I have noticed that organized religion, always requires a creed.
Not any organization ( that I know of ), will allow any one to teach or promote Jesus, until
you JOIN the association.
So that is why so many, are home based gatherings. They are tired of the structured
creed requirements.
If other's reading this are allowed to teach, without pledging a membership to the
name on the building, please tell me about it. So I can be praising the Lord, for it !
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