A friend of a good friend of mine wrote this. Tell me what you think- if you take the time to read through all of it.

Hey brother, I listened to the Wednesday night teaching you gave me about the rapture. I listened to it twice. He mentions five reasons for what he believes proves the pre-trib rapture. I wanted to share with you some thoughts on why I think all five reasons he shared do not necessitate a pre-trib rapture of the church. I am open to the study of the scriptures pertaining to eschatology and especially the return of Christ. I honestly find little biblical support for a pre-trib rapture based on his following five reasons. Please carefully consider each of the following:

1) No one knows the day or hour (mid or post-trib the day and hour is known)

2) He comes like a thief in the night (mid or post-trib cannot be possible for this)

3) We are told to look for Christ, not antichrist

4) Between Revelation 4-19 there is no mention of the church

5) The church never is punished for the sins of the world

I want to take each one of these and individually explain why each one does not demand a pre-trib rapture. Although you know my heart, I will still say that none of what I say is to be divisive or taken the wrong way on any level. I am just hungry for truth and would like to share with you what I feel is a biblical refutation of these five statements. Before I get to these five statements, I want to start by saying a few things about the rapture subject in general. The passage of scripture that was referenced in the teaching from Wednesday was 1Thess.4:13-17. There are a few things I would like to expound on in this passage of scripture

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Honestly, just reading the scripture for what it says, does it sound like it is describing a secret snatch into heaven or the highly visible and climatic return of the Lord. I want to expound on the three things that are highlighted and how they shed light on the meaning of this passage. Before going any further, the fact that we make reference to the rapture as a separate event from the coming of the Lord creates a problem. Paul himself said that at the coming of the Lord we would be caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. Rather than debating the timing of the rapture (pre, mid, or post), we need only ask when does Jesus return (Matt.24:3,29-31). The rapture is what happens at the coming of the Lord. You cannot have the coming of the Lord without a rapture and more importantly, you cannot have a rapture without the coming of the Lord. They are biblically inseparable. AT THE COMING OF THE LORD WE WILL BE CAUGHT UP.

I find it interesting that one of the most detailed passages describing the highly visible and climatic second coming of the Lord is reduced to a passage that speaks of a secret and silent "snatch" in which Jesus himself does not even come as Paul declares, but secretly and quietly peeks himself through the clouds and catches us upward and quickly retreats back to heaven. As we will see, the very words used in this passage refute this idea of a "peek a boo" appearance. The first word I want to expound on is the word coming. It is the Greek word Parousia. This is one of the several Greek words used interchangeably to speak of Christ's return to earth. The very word is used in Matthew 24:3 when the disciples asked Jesus what would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age. It is used in several other passages such as Matt.24:27,37; 1Cor.15:23; 1Thess.2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; 2Thess.2:1-9; Jas.5:7-8; 2Pet.3:4; 3:12 for examples. The word literally means "presence" in reference to the return of Christ. My question is this. How do you have a catching away (rapture) without a "parousia" if it is at the "parousia" that we are caught up (raptured)? Once again, they are inseparable.

It is at this "parousia" that Jesus will DESCEND FROM HEAVEN TO INVADE EARTH. It is highly important to take note that at this time of invasion from the King, he comes forth with a "cry of command" (ESV translation). Other translations read "a shout". This Greek word is "keleuma" and literally means "war cry". Very appropriate word to be used in describing the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS invading earth and inflicting vengeance on the ungodly while at the same time deliverance for the righteous (2Thess.1:6-10; Rev.19:11-16).

Moving on, the next word is "meet". This word comes from the Greek "apantesis" and literally means "a meeting". What is worth taking note is the fact that this word was used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. The special idea of the word was the official welcome a of a newly arrived dignitary which is of course also highly appropriate for us welcoming Christ the King. "Apantesis" is used only three times in scripture. That is in Matt.25:1,6; Acts28:15; and 1Thess.4:17. In all three accounts, it is a meeting and returning with. Having looked at these words thus far, we must understand how they are used together with a biblical understanding. The king would come in his parousia in which citizens would go out to apantesis (that is meet and return with) him. The citizens would meet, greet, and usher back into the village the coming king. That is how scripture itself portrays the use of this word in all three examples.

Scriptural example #1 (Matt.25:1-10)

1"Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet (apantesis) the bridegroom... at midnight there was a cry, 'Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet (apantesis) him... the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
Notice the bridegroom didn't meet the virgins and then turned around and went back from the direction he came with the virgins, but continued in his original direction escorted with the virgins.

Scriptural example #2 (Acts 28:15)

14There we found brothers and were invited to stay with them for seven days. And so we came to Rome. 15And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet (apantesis)us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage. 16And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier that guarded him.

Notice that Paul and companions did not meet the brothers and then turn around and take them to the direction from which they came, but were escorted back by the brothers.

Scriptural example #3 (1Thess.4:16-17)

16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Notice that Jesus the King is on His way to earth in His "parousia" in which we will have an "apantesis" in the air and He will continue in His downward descent to earth with us at His "war cry" and triumphant procession. This is accompanied by the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God.

So we can see here that Paul has in mind the highly climatic and visible return of the Lord in which we will be caught up (raptured) to meet Him in the air. According to pre-trib teaching, the second coming is really the third coming of which scripture gives no support. Only the second coming of the Lord is spoken of.

This is not everything that can be said about 1Thess.4:13-17 but a few things to ponder in light of the study of the catching away.

Now, to expound on the five statements from the Wednesday nights teaching.

#1) No one knows the day or hour (In mid or post-trib the day and hour is known)

I believe that text out of context is only pretext. Context is the key to understand any passage of scripture. On that we should all agree. Having said that, I honestly feel much pre-trib teaching is text out of context resulting in pretext. Statements like this one made is a perfect example. If I were to say "no one knows the day or hour of Jesus' return" and leave it at that. Than yes, that sounds pre-trib. Although, If I read this passage in context it completely does away with the thought of a pre-trib rapture. Especially since we now know that Paul relates the rapture and the second coming together in one event. In context we read...

29"Immediately after
(A the tribulation of those days
(B the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and
(c the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then
(D will appear in heaven(E) the sign of the Son of Man, and then
(F all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and
(G they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
(H with power and great glory. 31And
(I he will send out his angels with a loud
(J trumpet call, and they will
(K gather
(L his elect from
(M the four winds,
(N from one end of heaven to the other.
32"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near,
(O at the very gates. 34
(P Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35
(Q Heaven and earth will pass away, but
(R my words will not pass away. 36"But concerning that day and hour
(S no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,
(T nor the Son,[a]
(U but the Father only.

Concerning what day and hour? The day and hour Jesus returns which a few verses earlier Jesus says is "immediately after the tribulation of those days". Every reference Jesus made to His coming was his highly visible climatic second coming. Pre-trib teaching says Jesus will come first "secret and silent" for the church and then his "second coming" seven years later. This is lacking strong biblical support. Jesus himself warned against false teaching concerning his coming and even warned against the idea of a secret coming.

24For
(A false christs and
(B false prophets will arise and
(c perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See,
(D I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, 'Look,
(E he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27
(F For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be
(G the coming of the Son of Man.

He is making the point that there will be no mistake, people will know when he comes.

7Behold,
(A he is coming with the clouds, and
(B every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail[a] on account of him. Even so. Amen.


#2) He comes like a thief in the night (mid or post-trib cannot be possible for this)

First off, it is interesting to take note of the fact that Jesus' first coming was preceded by many prophecies, signs, etc. There were those anticipating the coming Messiah and recognized him when he arrived. On the other hand, there were many religious leaders who not only did not recognize the Messiah that came in fulfillment of prophecies. They completely rejected him altogether not knowing of their day of visitation. If that is true of his first coming, why not his second coming as well. Pre-trib says that if all the "signs" are taking place during the tribulation period, how can he come by surprise like a thief in the night? The answer is as follows... The thief in the night concept applies to the wicked and godless people of this age, not the people of God. That day will never be like a thief in the night for the church but always for the wicked.

2For you yourselves are fully aware that
(A the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then
(B sudden destruction will come upon them
(C as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you
(D are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. We will be here for that day, but not surprised.

Paul distinguishes between "people" "them" "they" and "you". "You" being the church while "people" "them" and "they" refer to the unregenerated people of this age. It is for them that the day of the Lord will come like a thief which speaks of Jesus' climatic second coming.

It is also worth taking note how Peter makes reference to the "thief in the night".

10But
(A the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then
(B the heavens will pass away with a roar, and
(C the heavenly bodies[a] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11Since all these things are thus to be dissolved,
(D what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12
(E waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and(F the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!

How do we wait for and hasten the coming day of God if we vanished 7 years earlier?

Here Peter refers to what even pre-trib teaching says is the final second coming of the Lord and says it will come like a thief in the night. The thief in the night concept is not so much a secret or silent event (heavenly bodies burned up and earth exposed) as much as it is quick and sudden destruction. Not so much a secretive burglar as we know today, but a wild bandit that comes through town and takes suddenly and violently unto himself (Lk.21:34-35).

Even in the book of Revelation when speaking of the seven bowls and God's wrath we read the following from Jesus himself.

15("Behold,
(A I am coming like a thief!
(B Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on,
(C that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!")
This is clearly after the tribulation has begun. Jesus himself speaking of his coming like a thief.

[b]3) We are told to look for Christ, not Antichrist

If a child is promised dessert, does that mean they automatically skip their meal and just eat the dessert. Of course, a child that is promised dessert will still have to eat their meal. I understand this is not a perfect analogy altogether but the point is made none the less. Although we are to look or wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ does not mean we "skip the meal" so to speak. The child promised dessert may still have to endure the vegetables and full meal before indulging his sweet tooth. In the same way we are told to look for Christ but that does not negate the fact that certain things will still take place prior to our coming King i.e. tribulation. This may even include the revealing of the Antichrist first and then Christ. That is why many will be deceived thinking he is Christ.

1Now concerning
(A the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our
(B being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,[a] 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or
(C alarmed, either(
D by a spirit or a
(E spoken word, or
(F a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3
(G Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come,
(H unless the rebellion comes first, and
(I the man of lawlessness is revealed,
(J the son of destruction...

2 things precede the coming of the Lord:

1 A great rebellion

2 The revealing of the Antichrist

These two things take place prior to "the coming of the Lord and our being gathered together to him". This gathering together is another way of explaining the catching away in his first letter to the Thessalonians. Jesus himself spoke of this gathering as well (Matt.24:29-31).


Why are we repeatedly warned in scripture about the Antichrist and told to be alert and on guard? In fact why do we have all that is recorded in the book of Revelation? The answer is very important.

16(A) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things
(B for the churches. I am
(C the root and
(D the descendant of David,
(E the bright morning star."

The reason for recording Revelation was not for some different group of "tribulation saints" or for "Israel". It is for the church that will be here until the end that they may be equipped and ready to be overcomers.

I am with you always, to the end of the age."


4) The church is not mentioned between Revelation 4-19

All through the letters by the apostles we read of the "saints" which are synonymous with the "church". Just take two of Paul's opening letters as examples.

2To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those
(A sanctified in Christ Jesus,
(B called to be saints together with all those who in every place
(C call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

1Paul,
(A an apostle of Christ Jesus
(B by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and
(C are faithful[a] in Christ Jesus: 2
(D Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we see that where there is the church there are saints and where the saints are, there is the church. Having said that, why do all the references in Revelation 4-19 to "saints" speak of some other group of people who are saved after the church vanishes. One argument for pre-trib teaching is that God would not put the church through the tribulation period. However, would not those who truly come to faith during the tribulation period be regarded as fellow brothers and sisters in the faith. What we know and call the church of God… His people. This is why we read the following verses in Revelation.


Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues…

This passage verifies two important things for us. That is that "His people" are still here, and "His people" can still be here and yet not be affected by His wrath. More of this on statement # 5

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under
(A the altar
(B the souls of those who had been slain
(C for the word of God and for
(D the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord,
(E holy and true,
(F how long
(G before you will judge and
(H avenge our blood on
(I those who dwell on the earth?" 11Then they were each given
(J a white robe and
(K told to rest a little longer,
(L until the number of their fellow servants[a] and their brothers
(M should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged,and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,and those who fear your name,both small and great,and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,and you have given them blood to drink.It is what they deserve!"
And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,and of all who have been slain on earth."

10(A
If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
(B if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.

(C Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

12
A Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who
(B keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.[a]
This sounds similar to the exhortation from Jesus himself to his disciples.

19By your
(A endurance you will gain your lives.

You can take a look in a concordance and see all references to the "saints" through Revelation 4-19 and see that the people of God are here. Just because the word "church" is not used does not mean it is not there. With that logic what do we make of all the chapters in other New Testament books were the word "church" is not found? Does that mean that the church is not there anymore? The reason the word "church" is used so much in Revelation 2-3 is simply because John wrote these letters to seven local congregations (churches). He was addressing the 7 churches. After this he deals with the apocalyptic writings which does include the church universally. He calls them "saints".

On another note. With this pre-trib logic of the absence of the church on earth because the word is not used. The church must be completely annihilated and vanished altogether. This is because we read a lot in Revelation not only about what is happening on earth but also in heaven in which the word "church" is not found. If all the church is in heaven as supposed by pre-trib teaching why no mention of the church nor a record of how or when they got there? There is no record of a "rapture" in Revelation, just the second coming of the Lord as triumphant King.

[b]5) The church is never punished for the sins of the world

This line of thinking is that if the church is here during the tribulation period, God would pour out His wrath on them as well as the wicked of this world. When we look at how God has done things in the past i.e. the plagues in Egypt we see that there are a lot of parallels. We see that indeed he can pour out his wrath on the wicked while keeping his own safe in the midst of it. Not to mention, much of the wrath is pinpointed to the wicked and unrepentant people. Not the "saints". The following few scriptures are examples.


2So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful
(A sores came upon the people who bore
(B the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

9They were scorched by the fierce heat, and
(A they cursed[a] the name of God who had power over these plagues.
(B They did not repent
(C and give him glory.

10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on
(A the throne of the beast, and
(B its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11and cursed
(C the God of heaven for their pain and
(D sores.
(E They did not repent of their deeds.

These scriptures are good examples of God pouring out His wrath on the wicked while preserving His own as He did with the plagues in Egypt.


1Or else, if you will not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies on you and your servants and your people, and into your houses. And the houses of the Egyptians shall be filled with swarms of flies, and also the ground on which they stand. 22But on that day(A) I will set apart the land of Goshen, where my people dwell, so that no swarms of flies shall be there,( that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.[a] 23Thus I will put a division[b] between my people and your people. Tomorrow this sign shall happen."'" 24And the LORD did so.© There came great swarms of flies into the house of Pharaoh and into his servants' houses. Throughout all the land of Egypt the land was ruined by the swarms of flies.

He will keep His people safe as He has done in the past. This does not necessitate a pre-trib evaporation of believers.

10
(A Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try
(B those who dwell on the earth.

Some will say that this demands a pre-trib rapture. However, this is a promise made to a local church and had application to them in their day. Even if we apply this promise to us (which we can). It can simply mean that he will keep (preserve) the church through this time. We need only see where else this phrase is used and how it is used in context. John the author of Revelation uses this same phrase "Keep from" in his Gospel.

5I
(A do not ask that you
(B take them out of the world, but that you
(C keep them from
(D the evil one.[a]

The same Greek phrase used by Jesus while at the same time praying that they not evacuate the earth.

It is also important to understand the difference between God's wrath and tribulation. The word tribulation as mentioned numerous times in the New Testament is the Greek word thilipsis which speaks of anguish, pressure, persecution and trials (Jn.16:33; Acts 14:22). This same word is used in reference to "the great tribulation" John himself said the following…

9I, John, your brother and
(A partner in
(B the tribulation and
(C the kingdom and
(D the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos
(E on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

The wrath we are not appointed to is God's eternal judgment. Not a time of tribulation with the activity of the Antichrist. We see this throughout the pages of the New Testament.

7He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him,
(A "You brood of
(B vipers! Who warned you to flee from
(C the wrath to come?

8but
(A God shows his love for us in that
(B while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore,
(C we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from
(D the wrath of God.

9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of
(A reception we had among you, and how( you turned to God
(C from idols to serve the living and
(D true God, 10and
(E to wait for his Son
(F from heaven,
(G whom he raised from the dead, Jesus
(H who delivers us from
(I the wrath to come.

8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober,
(A having put on the breastplate of
(B faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for
(C wrath, but
(D to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

This wrath we are delivered from is that which Jesus himself inaugurates at His second coming…that is eternal judgment and condemnation.


15
(A From his mouth comes a sharp sword
(B with which to strike down the nations, and
(C he will rule them with a rod of iron.
(D He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

The context in all these passages deal with eternal salvation, not eternal damnation. This is different than the tribulation and Antichrist's work which we see all through Revelation has "saints" involved in.

1And
(A they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for
(B they loved not their lives
(C even unto death.

Jesus makes it clear when we are delivered. It is the same day of destruction for the wicked. Remember I taught a few Wednesday nights ago on the second coming. Jesus discussed "the day" that he was revealed two things would happen. Deliverance and destruction just as Noah and Lot. The deliverance He provides is not from dispensational teaching of a seven year period of tribulation, but His vengeance when he returns in flaming fire (2Thess.1:7).


26
(A Just as it was in the days of
(B Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27
(C They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28Likewise, just as it was in the days of
(D Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29
(E but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30so will it be(F on the day when the Son of Man is revealed (Does not sound like a secret to me).


Jesus is saying that just as judgment (wrath) was brought the same day Noah and Lot were delivered. It will be the same when he returns. We see this clearly in Paul's teaching on eschatology as well. He is in perfect harmony with Jesus' teaching on his return. Both speak of a highly visible climatic return.


5This is
(A evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be
(B considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6since indeed God considers it
(C just
(D to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to grant
(E relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when
(F the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven
(G with his mighty angels 8
(H in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those
(I who do not know God and on those who
(J do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the punishment of
(K eternal destruction,
(L away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10
(M when he comes on
(N that day
(O to be glorified in his saints (the same saints we read of in Revelation), and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our
(P testimony to you
(Q was believed.

Both Jesus and Paul speak of "the day" of "affliction" and "relief" when he is "revealed". No seven year gap is here indicated in any way. It is the same day!!!


This turned out a bit longer than I planned on but hopefully some good food for thought. Just some thoughts to ponder. As I stated earlier, I am open to the Word on this subject, but the more I study the topic. The more evidence I see for a single second coming of the Lord. No secret or silent vanishing. This whole study only pertains to the five statements he made that demand a pre-trib teaching. There is plenty of scripture that is not covered in this study pertaining to escatology. WoW! there is so much in the Word of God. It truly is an amazing God-breathed book.

God bless,

A fellow brother in Messiah.

When Jesus resurrected physically He stayed on earth 40 days...

What is after His return Jesus now stays with us 40 years?

Every pre-tribber will deny the return of Jesus on earth because they have been taught the physical rapture....
So they will miss their hour of visitation...

The mountain will be split in 2 (the body of Christ)...Those who believe His return and those who deny His return because they are here on earth with Jesus, you gotta love the irony of it all.

I believe that the church is going to be "gathered up" . I also believe that Christ will one day "return". But when he does "return", he is coming with the saints. How do I know this to be true ? The scritpures tell me so - II Thess. 1:7 - 10

IN Christ - M M

If such an event is to take place, why doesn't the word Rapture appear in the Bible? People have accepted this myth for a very long time. Also, the religious teachers have perpetuated this myth for just as long.

All of the Prophets, even David, a man after the Lords' own heart does not speak of a rapture, but instead discusses the wilderness (the place of safety during the Great Tribulation) which is right here on the earth. Exactly what does Rapture mean anyway? ("Ecstasy, Intense Spiritual or Emotional Ecstasy") Webster's Dictionary

Lets go to Daniel and see the saint here on earth and what they up against. Keep in mind the saint are the church.

Danile 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

I don't see no rapture, this is the saints we talking about, on earth falling by the sword.

Now lets take a quick look at the saints that got in the wilderness. All this is future.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The woman represents the church or Israel, israel is God's name, but that another lesson, so theres no rapture.
We learned that the saint are going to be here on earth, some fallen by the sword and some fled in the wilderness, all on earth.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I know - "I said" - "gathered up" < Is it in the Word of God ? Answer: Yes it is !!

IN Christ - M M

actually the wor rapture is in a bible

John 20:20
So saying, He showed them His hands and His side. And when the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with joy (delight, exultation, ecstasy, rapture).

I now....... lol







Yes it is,,,but is has absolutly nothing to do with a rapture....

It has everything to do with a "gatherin up" of the saints to meet the Lord in the air - pre-trib.

How do I know ? The scriptures tell me so !

IN Christ - M M

A friend of a good friend of mine wrote this. Tell me what you think- if you take the time to read through all of it.

>You already know what I think on the subject, but I will comment briefly [I am not going to add scriptural references, but only commentary because of the length of this post .... if one has specific questions I will provide further detail and supporting scripture] with response at the > where appropriate:

Hey brother, I listened to the Wednesday night teaching you gave me about the rapture. I listened to it twice. He mentions five reasons for what he believes proves the pre-trib rapture. I wanted to share with you some thoughts on why I think all five reasons he shared do not necessitate a pre-trib rapture of the church. I am open to the study of the scriptures pertaining to eschatology and especially the return of Christ. I honestly find little biblical support for a pre-trib rapture based on his following five reasons. Please carefully consider each of the following:

1) No one knows the day or hour (mid or post-trib the day and hour is known)

2) He comes like a thief in the night (mid or post-trib cannot be possible for this)

3) We are told to look for Christ, not antichrist

4) Between Revelation 4-19 there is no mention of the church

5) The church never is punished for the sins of the world

>All support the pre-T except for 4 and 5 .... this is a very limited selection for this discussion

>These two statements are not correct in the first place and the one who uses them to support a pre-T is on the wrong track

>The immortalized church is seen in chapters 4, 5, and 7 .... including 11, 12, 17, 19, and 20

>The word "punished" used is misleading ..... there is a difference between human religious persecution against others and the Lord's coming judgment for unbelief. The Lord never "persecutes" the believer

I want to take each one of these and individually explain why each one does not demand a pre-trib rapture. Although you know my heart, I will still say that none of what I say is to be divisive or taken the wrong way on any level. I am just hungry for truth and would like to share with you what I feel is a biblical refutation of these five statements. Before I get to these five statements, I want to start by saying a few things about the rapture subject in general. The passage of scripture that was referenced in the teaching from Wednesday was 1Thess.4:13-17. There are a few things I would like to expound on in this passage of scripture

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Honestly, just reading the scripture for what it says, does it sound like it is describing a secret snatch into heaven or the highly visible and climatic return of the Lord. I want to expound on the three things that are highlighted and how they shed light on the meaning of this passage. Before going any further, the fact that we make reference to the rapture as a separate event from the coming of the Lord creates a problem. Paul himself said that at the coming of the Lord we would be caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. Rather than debating the timing of the rapture (pre, mid, or post), we need only ask when does Jesus return (Matt.24:3,29-31). The rapture is what happens at the coming of the Lord. You cannot have the coming of the Lord without a rapture and more importantly, you cannot have a rapture without the coming of the Lord. They are biblically inseparable. AT THE COMING OF THE LORD WE WILL BE CAUGHT UP.

I find it interesting that one of the most detailed passages describing the highly visible and climatic second coming of the Lord is reduced to a passage that speaks of a secret and silent "snatch" in which Jesus himself does not even come as Paul declares, but secretly and quietly peeks himself through the clouds and catches us upward and quickly retreats back to heaven. As we will see, the very words used in this passage refute this idea of a "peek a boo" appearance. The first word I want to expound on is the word coming. It is the Greek word Parousia. This is one of the several Greek words used interchangeably to speak of Christ's return to earth. The very word is used in Matthew 24:3 when the disciples asked Jesus what would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age. It is used in several other passages such as Matt.24:27,37; 1Cor.15:23; 1Thess.2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; 2Thess.2:1-9; Jas.5:7-8; 2Pet.3:4; 3:12 for examples. The word literally means "presence" in reference to the return of Christ. My question is this. How do you have a catching away (rapture) without a "parousia" if it is at the "parousia" that we are caught up (raptured)? Once again, they are inseparable.

>Let me say that this writer is very presumptious about many things

>The Lord is present and observing today, but we just cannot see Him

>He will call today's Body of Christ [immortalize them] both the living and the dead first before He brings His coming judgment upon a world of unbelief

>He will not visibly appear to mortals on the earth until after His hour of trial is over

>The error here is thinking that the Lord's "harpazo" action and His post-tribulation visible appearance to the world are the same event .... not true

It is at this "parousia" that Jesus will DESCEND FROM HEAVEN TO INVADE EARTH. It is highly important to take note that at this time of invasion from the King, he comes forth with a "cry of command" (ESV translation). Other translations read "a shout". This Greek word is "keleuma" and literally means "war cry". Very appropriate word to be used in describing the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS invading earth and inflicting vengeance on the ungodly while at the same time deliverance for the righteous (2Thess.1:6-10; Rev.19:11-16).

>Again failure to differentiate between His initial intervention and His appearance on the earth at the end of the tribulation

>His command is the same as recorded in Revelation 18:4 which will remove living believers just before the destruction of the great city part of MBG

>It is the same command as recorded in Matthew 25:1-13

Moving on, the next word is "meet". This word comes from the Greek "apantesis" and literally means "a meeting". What is worth taking note is the fact that this word was used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. The special idea of the word was the official welcome a of a newly arrived dignitary which is of course also highly appropriate for us welcoming Christ the King. "Apantesis" is used only three times in scripture. That is in Matt.25:1,6; Acts28:15; and 1Thess.4:17. In all three accounts, it is a meeting and returning with. Having looked at these words thus far, we must understand how they are used together with a biblical understanding. The king would come in his parousia in which citizens would go out to apantesis (that is meet and return with) him. The citizens would meet, greet, and usher back into the village the coming king. That is how scripture itself portrays the use of this word in all three examples.

>This statement is based upon speculative interpretation and attempts to put "meeting" and "returning" into one event which the scriptures do not tell at all

Scriptural example #1 (Matt.25:1-10)

1"Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet (apantesis) the bridegroom... at midnight there was a cry, 'Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet (apantesis) him... the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
Notice the bridegroom didn't meet the virgins and then turned around and went back from the direction he came with the virgins, but continued in his original direction escorted with the virgins.

Scriptural example #2 (Acts 28:15)

14There we found brothers and were invited to stay with them for seven days. And so we came to Rome. 15And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet (apantesis)us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage. 16And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier that guarded him.

Notice that Paul and companions did not meet the brothers and then turn around and take them to the direction from which they came, but were escorted back by the brothers.

Scriptural example #3 (1Thess.4:16-17)

16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Notice that Jesus the King is on His way to earth in His "parousia" in which we will have an "apantesis" in the air and He will continue in His downward descent to earth with us at His "war cry" and triumphant procession. This is accompanied by the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God.

So we can see here that Paul has in mind the highly climatic and visible return of the Lord in which we will be caught up (raptured) to meet Him in the air. According to pre-trib teaching, the second coming is really the third coming of which scripture gives no support. Only the second coming of the Lord is spoken of.

>This idea completely ignores the one and only intervention by the Lord which will begin His day of judgment, the 70th week of the tribulation period which will last for 7 years

>His intervention will bring judgment of which He will personally be in command even though the world under judgment will not see Him

>He does not just show up at the end of the tribulation period

>Revelation refutes this idea hands down .... the Lord will be executing the judgments Himself

>And just before He begins His hour of trial, He will immortalize today's church as He has promised

This is not everything that can be said about 1Thess.4:13-17 but a few things to ponder in light of the study of the catching away.

Now, to expound on the five statements from the Wednesday nights teaching.

#1) No one knows the day or hour (In mid or post-trib the day and hour is known)

I believe that text out of context is only pretext. Context is the key to understand any passage of scripture. On that we should all agree. Having said that, I honestly feel much pre-trib teaching is text out of context resulting in pretext. Statements like this one made is a perfect example. If I were to say "no one knows the day or hour of Jesus' return" and leave it at that. Than yes, that sounds pre-trib. Although, If I read this passage in context it completely does away with the thought of a pre-trib rapture. Especially since we now know that Paul relates the rapture and the second coming together in one event. In context we read...

>No one knows the moment of the Lord's coming intervention in the affairs of men .... no one

>His judgment will come without warning or signs

29"Immediately after
(A the tribulation of those days
(B the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and
(c the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then
(D will appear in heaven(E) the sign of the Son of Man, and then
(F all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and
(G they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
(H with power and great glory. 31And
(I he will send out his angels with a loud
(J trumpet call, and they will
(K gather
(L his elect from
(M the four winds,
(N from one end of heaven to the other.
32"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near,
(O at the very gates. 34
(P Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35
(Q Heaven and earth will pass away, but
(R my words will not pass away. 36"But concerning that day and hour
(S no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,
(T nor the Son,[a]
(U but the Father only.

>This is the line up of the setting at the end of the tribulation period .... not at the beginning

>And it is ridiculous for one not to see that the beginning will come without warning ... "a time you can not know" .... and many events will take place that anyone will be able to observe during the tribulation period that will lead up to "a time that one can know" and will be anticipating

>No one knows when the Lord will bring His judgment that is coming upon the whole world .... this is the time that no one knows, or can know

Concerning what day and hour? The day and hour Jesus returns which a few verses earlier Jesus says is "immediately after the tribulation of those days". Every reference Jesus made to His coming was his highly visible climatic second coming. Pre-trib teaching says Jesus will come first "secret and silent" for the church and then his "second coming" seven years later. This is lacking strong biblical support. Jesus himself warned against false teaching concerning his coming and even warned against the idea of a secret coming.

>Not true

>There is no resurrection scheduled for the time just after the tribulation .... but a gathering of mortals who will survive the tribulation period .... those found believing will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth

>This is where post-T falls apart and has no answer for the presence of mortal believers of the millennium

>There would be no mortal believers [sheep] to populate the millennium if they were all immortalized before

24For
(A false christs and
(B false prophets will arise and
(c perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See,
(D I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, 'Look,
(E he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27
(F For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be
(G the coming of the Son of Man.

He is making the point that there will be no mistake, people will know when he comes.

>No .... otherwise He would be contradicting His insistence that no one can know the time of His sudden intervention

>In fact, the signs and events recorded in His discourse are all scheduled to take place during the tribulation period, and not before it begins

7Behold,
(A he is coming with the clouds, and
(B every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail[a] on account of him. Even so. Amen.

#2) He comes like a thief in the night (mid or post-trib cannot be possible for this)

First off, it is interesting to take note of the fact that Jesus' first coming was preceded by many prophecies, signs, etc. There were those anticipating the coming Messiah and recognized him when he arrived. On the other hand, there were many religious leaders who not only did not recognize the Messiah that came in fulfillment of prophecies. They completely rejected him altogether not knowing of their day of visitation. If that is true of his first coming, why not his second coming as well. Pre-trib says that if all the "signs" are taking place during the tribulation period, how can he come by surprise like a thief in the night? The answer is as follows... The thief in the night concept applies to the wicked and godless people of this age, not the people of God. That day will never be like a thief in the night for the church but always for the wicked.

>So are people anticipating His intervention today and have been for a long time .... but no one knows the time .... there will be no signs given .... otherwise one could anticipate by the signs

>Many attempts have been made to project the beginning of the time of the end and all have failed .... guess why?

2For you yourselves are fully aware that
(A the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then
(B sudden destruction will come upon them
(C as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you
(D are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. We will be here for that day, but not surprised.

Paul distinguishes between "people" "them" "they" and "you". "You" being the church while "people" "them" and "they" refer to the unregenerated people of this age. It is for them that the day of the Lord will come like a thief which speaks of Jesus' climatic second coming.

It is also worth taking note how Peter makes reference to the "thief in the night".

10But
(A the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then
(B the heavens will pass away with a roar, and
(C the heavenly bodies[a] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11Since all these things are thus to be dissolved,
(D what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12
(E waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and(F the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!

How do we wait for and hasten the coming day of God if we vanished 7 years earlier?

>The writer is waiting right now ... this comment makes no sense

>Peter's statement is compressed and covers a very long period of time .... 7 years of tribulation and 1,000 years of the Lord's personal reign on the earth .... many things will take place according to scripture within this time frame

Here Peter refers to what even pre-trib teaching says is the final second coming of the Lord and says it will come like a thief in the night. The thief in the night concept is not so much a secret or silent event (heavenly bodies burned up and earth exposed) as much as it is quick and sudden destruction. Not so much a secretive burglar as we know today, but a wild bandit that comes through town and takes suddenly and violently unto himself (Lk.21:34-35).

>It is the destruction of the tribulation period with many events that scripture tells of which will begin without warning .... and this period will require time lapse for all of the prophecied events to take place

Even in the book of Revelation when speaking of the seven bowls and God's wrath we read the following from Jesus himself.

15("Behold,
(A I am coming like a thief!
(B Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on,
(C that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!")
This is clearly after the tribulation has begun. Jesus himself speaking of his coming like a thief.

>This statement is parenthetical and a comment by the Lord to warn the reader to be ready and to avoid the tribulations of His wrath .... a full 7years .... not just His destruction of the beast and his followers at the end of the period

[b]3) We are told to look for Christ, not Antichrist

If a child is promised dessert, does that mean they automatically skip their meal and just eat the dessert. Of course, a child that is promised dessert will still have to eat their meal. I understand this is not a perfect analogy altogether but the point is made none the less. Although we are to look or wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ does not mean we "skip the meal" so to speak. The child promised dessert may still have to endure the vegetables and full meal before indulging his sweet tooth. In the same way we are told to look for Christ but that does not negate the fact that certain things will still take place prior to our coming King i.e. tribulation. This may even include the revealing of the Antichrist first and then Christ. That is why many will be deceived thinking he is Christ.

>No believing christian with Biblical knowledge would ever be deceived by the beast ... in fact, those who become believers during the tribulation period will not submit and will be killed

>On the other hand, there will be many who will not repent and they will be killed in the tribulation and lost forever

>The writer is already deceived about many things and, if alive at the time, will face a very high risk of being confused, deceived, and lost in the tribulation period

1Now concerning
(A the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our
(B being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,[a] 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or
(C alarmed, either(
D by a spirit or a
(E spoken word, or
(F a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3
(G Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come,
(H unless the rebellion comes first, and
(I the man of lawlessness is revealed,
(J the son of destruction...

2 things precede the coming of the Lord:

1 A great rebellion

2 The revealing of the Antichrist

These two things take place prior to "the coming of the Lord and our being gathered together to him". This gathering together is another way of explaining the catching away in his first letter to the Thessalonians. Jesus himself spoke of this gathering as well (Matt.24:29-31).


Why are we repeatedly warned in scripture about the Antichrist and told to be alert and on guard? In fact why do we have all that is recorded in the book of Revelation? The answer is very important.

16(A) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things
(B for the churches. I am
(C the root and
(D the descendant of David,
(E the bright morning star."

>The interpretation of Paul's corrective instruction has two parts .... the gathering .... and the beginning of the day of the Lord .... the tribulation period .... these are not the same events

>The Thessalonian believers had a reason for their concern about the false teaching that was prevalent and that the day of the Lord was in process

>The writer does not see the purpose of the passage at all

The reason for recording Revelation was not for some different group of "tribulation saints" or for "Israel". It is for the church that will be here until the end that they may be equipped and ready to be overcomers.

>The reason for the Lord's Revelation is for the reader to understand His intentions and future actions .... now .... and prior to His coming judgment .... a warning to be ready for avoidance

>The world will not be ready including those who only profess christianity

>The coming tribulation period is the Lord's vengeance against intransigence and unbelief .... not against believers who are ready

I am with you always, to the end of the age."

4) The church is not mentioned between Revelation 4-19

>Yes it is

>And this is another grave error of omission of both the pre-T and post-T camps

All through the letters by the apostles we read of the "saints" which are synonymous with the "church". Just take two of Paul's opening letters as examples.

2To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those
(A sanctified in Christ Jesus,
(B called to be saints together with all those who in every place
(C call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

1Paul,
(A an apostle of Christ Jesus
(B by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and
(C are faithful[a] in Christ Jesus: 2
(D Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we see that where there is the church there are saints and where the saints are, there is the church. Having said that, why do all the references in Revelation 4-19 to "saints" speak of some other group of people who are saved after the church vanishes. One argument for pre-trib teaching is that God would not put the church through the tribulation period. However, would not those who truly come to faith during the tribulation period be regarded as fellow brothers and sisters in the faith. What we know and call the church of God… His people. This is why we read the following verses in Revelation.

>Revelation 4, 5, and 7 contain views of the immortalized church in heaven before the tribulation period begins

>It is after the period begins that some will turn and repent on the earth and will be saved .... most humans will not do this

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues…

This passage verifies two important things for us. That is that "His people" are still here, and "His people" can still be here and yet not be affected by His wrath. More of this on statement # 5

>Wrong .... this is the Lord's removal of living believers just prior to the destruction of MBG's great city part that will occur at the beginning of the tribulation period

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under
(A the altar
(B the souls of those who had been slain
(C for the word of God and for
(D the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord,
(E holy and true,
(F how long
(G before you will judge and
(H avenge our blood on
(I those who dwell on the earth?" 11Then they were each given
(J a white robe and
(K told to rest a little longer,
(L until the number of their fellow servants[a] and their brothers
(M should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

>These will be those who become believers and are killed during the tribulation period and will have to wait until all of such are killed .... the Lord's "harpazo" action for the church of today is a totally different experience and it will take place just before the period of the Lord's wrath begins ….... not the same experience of the tribulation martyrs at all

The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged,and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,and those who fear your name,both small and great,and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,and you have given them blood to drink.It is what they deserve!"
And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,and of all who have been slain on earth."

10(A
If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
(B if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.

(C Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

12
A Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who
(B keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.[a]
This sounds similar to the exhortation from Jesus himself to his disciples.

19By your
(A endurance you will gain your lives.

You can take a look in a concordance and see all references to the "saints" through Revelation 4-19 and see that the people of God are here. Just because the word "church" is not used does not mean it is not there. With that logic what do we make of all the chapters in other New Testament books were the word "church" is not found? Does that mean that the church is not there anymore? The reason the word "church" is used so much in Revelation 2-3 is simply because John wrote these letters to seven local congregations (churches). He was addressing the 7 churches. After this he deals with the apocalyptic writings which does include the church universally. He calls them "saints".

>The immortalized church will be observing from heaven as the tribulation unfolds and is seen several times during Revelation’s unfolding of the period .... both pre-T and post-T views excluding the immortalized church during the tribulation period are in error and for different reasons

On another note. With this pre-trib logic of the absence of the church on earth because the word is not used. The church must be completely annihilated and vanished altogether. This is because we read a lot in Revelation not only about what is happening on earth but also in heaven in which the word "church" is not found. If all the church is in heaven as supposed by pre-trib teaching why no mention of the church nor a record of how or when they got there? There is no record of a "rapture" in Revelation, just the second coming of the Lord as triumphant King.

[b]5) The church is never punished for the sins of the world

This line of thinking is that if the church is here during the tribulation period, God would pour out His wrath on them as well as the wicked of this world. When we look at how God has done things in the past i.e. the plagues in Egypt we see that there are a lot of parallels. We see that indeed he can pour out his wrath on the wicked while keeping his own safe in the midst of it. Not to mention, much of the wrath is pinpointed to the wicked and unrepentant people. Not the "saints". The following few scriptures are examples.

>There is no promise of protection for those who become believers during the tribulation period .... in fact just the opposite is true

>The beast will hunt large numbers of them down and kill them and few will survive .... the Lord will not protect some and leave others to the objectives of the beast

>Unless you are one of the 144,000 Israelites, part of the believing remnant of national Israel that will flee the beast and his followers, or the Lord's two Israelite prophets .... you will be out of luck ... no protection guaranteed

>Only those of the believing remnant part of national Israel will be protected for His purposes

2So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful
(A sores came upon the people who bore
(B the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

9They were scorched by the fierce heat, and
(A they cursed[a] the name of God who had power over these plagues.
(B They did not repent
(C and give him glory.

10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on
(A the throne of the beast, and
(B its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11and cursed
(C the God of heaven for their pain and
(D sores.
(E They did not repent of their deeds.

These scriptures are good examples of God pouring out His wrath on the wicked while preserving His own as He did with the plagues in Egypt.

>These scriptures define His turning on the beast and His followers at the end of the tribulation period only .... this action will be just a part of the tribulation period

1Or else, if you will not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies on you and your servants and your people, and into your houses. And the houses of the Egyptians shall be filled with swarms of flies, and also the ground on which they stand. 22But on that day(A) I will set apart the land of Goshen, where my people dwell, so that no swarms of flies shall be there,( that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.[a] 23Thus I will put a division[b] between my people and your people. Tomorrow this sign shall happen."'" 24And the LORD did so.© There came great swarms of flies into the house of Pharaoh and into his servants' houses. Throughout all the land of Egypt the land was ruined by the swarms of flies.

He will keep His people safe as He has done in the past. This does not necessitate a pre-trib evaporation of believers.

>Revelation's events are not based upon the past and it is very clear about who will be protected and who will not be

10
(A Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try
(B those who dwell on the earth.

Some will say that this demands a pre-trib rapture. However, this is a promise made to a local church and had application to them in their day. Even if we apply this promise to us (which we can). It can simply mean that he will keep (preserve) the church through this time. We need only see where else this phrase is used and how it is used in context. John the author of Revelation uses this same phrase "Keep from" in his Gospel.

>Wrong .... the message of the Lord's evaluation of the sample churches is the same today .... nothing has changed

>The hour of trial that is coming upon the "whole world" did not take place for the church at the time of the existence of the early churches of Asia Minor

5I
(A do not ask that you
(B take them out of the world, but that you
(C keep them from
(D the evil one.[a]

The same Greek phrase used by Jesus while at the same time praying that they not evacuate the earth.

>He is merely stating the He is not asking for the immortalization of the church before the time, …. but, until the time .... to keep them from being deceived by satan and losing their salvation

It is also important to understand the difference between God's wrath and tribulation. The word tribulation as mentioned numerous times in the New Testament is the Greek word thilipsis which speaks of anguish, pressure, persecution and trials (Jn.16:33; Acts 14:22). This same word is used in reference to "the great tribulation" John himself said the following…

Yes it is and this is another grave error of post tribulational thinking. The Lord’s coming judgment of the tribulation period is not recognized for what it will be

>Religious persecution by humans is one thing .... the Lord's coming judgment is a totally different matter

9I, John, your brother and
(A partner in
(B the tribulation and
(C the kingdom and
(D the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos
(E on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

The wrath we are not appointed to is God's eternal judgment. Not a time of tribulation with the activity of the Antichrist. We see this throughout the pages of the New Testament.

>Wrong. The writer takes this out of the context of Paul's discussion .... the Lord's coming wrath is exactly what living believers will be kept from

7He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him,
(A "You brood of
(B vipers! Who warned you to flee from
(C the wrath to come?

8but
(A God shows his love for us in that
(B while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore,
(C we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from
(D the wrath of God.

9For they themselves report concerning us the kind of
(A reception we had among you, and how( you turned to God
(C from idols to serve the living and
(D true God, 10and
(E to wait for his Son
(F from heaven,
(G whom he raised from the dead, Jesus
(H who delivers us from
(I the wrath to come.

8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober,
(A having put on the breastplate of
(B faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for
(C wrath, but
(D to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

This wrath we are delivered from is that which Jesus himself inaugurates at His second coming…that is eternal judgment and condemnation.

>But it will start at the beginning of the tribulation period against an unbelieving world .... and believers living at the time will be kept from it

>His eternal judgment is a totally different matter and involves the resurrection to the second death of the spirits of all unbelievers just after His millennial kingdom on the earth

15
(A From his mouth comes a sharp sword
(B with which to strike down the nations, and
(C he will rule them with a rod of iron.
(D He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

The context in all these passages deal with eternal salvation, not eternal damnation. This is different than the tribulation and Antichrist's work which we see all through Revelation has "saints" involved in.

>No .... He will rule His millennial kingdom of mortals on the earth with a rod of iron

>And the wine press will be His a physical destruction of unbelievers at Armageddon

>The rest of this statement above by the writer makes no sense at all

1And
(A they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for
(B they loved not their lives
(C even unto death.

Jesus makes it clear when we are delivered. It is the same day of destruction for the wicked. Remember I taught a few Wednesday nights ago on the second coming. Jesus discussed "the day" that he was revealed two things would happen. Deliverance and destruction just as Noah and Lot. The deliverance He provides is not from dispensational teaching of a seven year period of tribulation, but His vengeance when he returns in flaming fire (2Thess.1:7).

>Way off base here for the Lord says nothing of the kind .... the writer fabricates this one

>His coming judgment will last a full 7 years just as it is described in Daniel's visions of the 70 weeks of years .... guess who gave Daniel the visions?

>483 years of this prophetic time frame have transpired and did so at about 33 A.D.

>There are 7 years still pending for Daniel's people, national Israel .... and the Lord will execute the process Himself

26
(A Just as it was in the days of
(B Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27
(C They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28Likewise, just as it was in the days of
(D Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29
(E but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30so will it be(F on the day when the Son of Man is revealed (Does not sound like a secret to me).

Jesus is saying that just as judgment (wrath) was brought the same day Noah and Lot were delivered. It will be the same when he returns. We see this clearly in Paul's teaching on eschatology as well. He is in perfect harmony with Jesus' teaching on his return. Both speak of a highly visible climatic return.

>This is speculation and the twisting and misapplication of scriptures

5This is
(A evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be
(B considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6since indeed God considers it
(C just
(D to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to grant
(E relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when
(F the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven
(G with his mighty angels 8
(H in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those
(I who do not know God and on those who
(J do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the punishment of
(K eternal destruction,
(L away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10
(M when he comes on
(N that day
(O to be glorified in his saints (the same saints we read of in Revelation), and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our
(P testimony to you
(Q was believed.

Both Jesus and Paul speak of "the day" of "affliction" and "relief" when he is "revealed". No seven year gap is here indicated in any way. It is the same day!!!

>All of Revelation's events will not take place in one day as the author attempts to prove ... a total riddling of the prophetic scriptures is contained in this presentation

>This writer has very limited knowledge of O.T. prophecy related to the time of the end of this present age and the events that must take place over the time of the 70th week decreed

>This author is teaching falsehood and is obviously very deceived as well

>One who is parroting the movers and shakers of the post-T rant

This turned out a bit longer than I planned on but hopefully some good food for thought. Just some thoughts to ponder. As I stated earlier, I am open to the Word on this subject, but the more I study the topic. The more evidence I see for a single second coming of the Lord. No secret or silent vanishing. This whole study only pertains to the five statements he made that demand a pre-trib teaching. There is plenty of scripture that is not covered in this study pertaining to escatology. WoW! there is so much in the Word of God. It truly is an amazing God-breathed book.

>Not only that, but he uses a pre-T thinker who is also miss-informed for proving his stand

….... adding error upon error .... and going no where

>It appears to me that this author is presenting the trickle down heresy promoted specifically by Hank Hanegraaff and David Macpherson. This false teaching is also convinent for the numerous pied pipers of the latter rain manifestation cults and others for inserting their proprietary dogmas into the scriptures. All of them hold a post-T view

>Pure pre-T interpretation does not allow for these pied pipers to play with the scriptures and if studied and understood properly provides and air tight account of the Lord's intended immortalization of today's Body of Christ .... just before the beginning of His coming judgment period of the tribulation ... and many other related truths of the Lord's Word