Most of the difficulties interpreting Romans would vanish if Bible scholars would only use the KJV Bible, and then applied simple logic to understand it.

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"Blindness in part" means that only part of Israel was permanently blinded, not that all of Israel was "partially" blinded. Only those Israelites, during the Gospel era, were blinded who steadfastly refused to acknowledge who Jesus really was, and tried to drag fellow Jews down with them. As 2 Thes. reveals, they were blinded and doomed.

"Fulness of the Gentiles be come in" is nothing at all as modern translations say. It has noting to do with "full number of Gentiles coming into the Church," or anything like that. "Fullness of the Gentiles be come in" means that the times of Israel ceased, and the times of the Gentiles began. This happened after Jerusalem was finlly destroyed in AD70.

A complicated series of events took place in the years before the holocaust of AD70.
First, Jesus was anointed Messiah to confirm God's covenant with Israel for seven years, culminating in the deliverance of Israel's kingdom back to the nation.
Israel rejected Him and the kingdom, and crucified Him. That was the midst of the week, when He was cutoff, and thereby ending the sacrifice and oblations. The Bible ignores the remainder of the week, because the prospect of the kingdom being delivered was no longer a prospect; the second half was no longer relevant.
The Baptism of Fire was initiated, probably on the day of Pentecost. That would be a time of trial for all Jews who received Christ, to purge out the unbelievers, and confirm the salvation of the believing remnant. That trial would continue, and be a time of tribulation, lasting until just before the second, Great Tribulation began.
At that time, Michael defeated Satan and his angels, and cast them out of heaven. They were cast to earth for the purpose of leading the heathen Roman armies to invade Jerusalem.
All the Old Testament Israelites were spiritually resurrected and taken to heaven.
All the New Testament believers were raptured, the dead in Christ first, then those who were alive and remained.
The Apostles today rule and reign over the twelve tribes in the New Jerusalem, with Jesus Christ. That will continue for "one thousand years," the present Church Age, which is not 1000 years, but a period of time as such. Satan is bound in the "Bottomless Pit."
At the end of the "thousand years," (not yet happened) Satan will be released from the bottomless pit, for one last act of rebellion.

This, very briefly, is the Roman's story of Israel.

Patrick

www.Biblefacts.net

So basically you are a preterist and a KJV onlyer.

What do modern translations have to do with this?
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 4138 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
plhvrwma from (4137)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pleroma 6:298,867
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
play'-ro-mah Noun Neuter

Definition
that which is (has been) filled
a ship inasmuch as it is filled (i.e. manned) with sailors, rowers, and soldiers in the NT, the body of believers, as that which is filled with the presence, power, agency, riches of God and of Christ that which fills or with which a thing is filled
of those things which a ship is filled, freight and merchandise, sailors, oarsmen, soldiers completeness or fulness of time fulness, abundance a fulfilling, keeping

King James Word Usage - Total: 17
fulness 13, full 1, fulfilling 1, which is put in to fill up 1, pierce that filled up 1



OK. I agree that the 70th week was fulfilled by Jesus.



That is a novel interpretation. I would say that the war in heaven happened either when Jesus died on the cross or it is yet to happen in the future, just before the rise of the antichrist.



There is no evidence that anyone was raptured in the first century. We would have had plenty of written accounts of this had it happened. This is an effort to force the Bible to fit your otherwise seemingly workable interpretation. If we are reigning the earth with the devil bound, than why is there so much evil on the earth? How can the Zazi holocaust happen without any demons involved? It can't.

"Most of the difficulties interpreting Romans would vanish if Bible scholars would only use the KJV Bible, and then applied simple logic to understand it"

The preterist certainly picked the wrong verse to support "it all happend in 70 A.D."

...... and has taken it out of context as well

Your attack here can easily be turned against you

Much difficulty resides in the interpretive rant of preterism

How about explaining Zechariah 14 from a preteristic view?

This prophet destroys you view hands down

I didn't use any verse from Zechariah 14. So which verse are you referring to?

Patrick

The prophet's entire view of the time of the end in the passage ..... which is still future

All of the prophets refute preterism with their forecasts of the time of the end .... including the Lord

ZECHARIAH 14:
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. The Day of The Lord began with Gabriel announcing the birth of Jesus. It ended in AD70. It is also the Day of Christ.


2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. This was fulfilled. God did gather "all nations" against Jerusalem to battle. The Roman Empire was composed of virtually all the little nations in the Great Sea area. This is the biblical picture of the "Great Tribulation." Futurists see Christ Second Coming to rescue Israel from the armies of the "Antichrist." But the Bible says that half the city shall go into captivity, etcetera. Futurists should have said that Christ will rescue only half the city . The following passage in Isaiah is almost a word for word repeat of Zechariah 14:

Isaiah 6:
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.
The tenth here is the relatively small remnant that returned to the Lord during the first tribulation. Why they had to return is given in Romans 11:32, where God concluded all Israel in unbelief, so that they all had to receive Christ in order to return to the Lord (be graffed back into the good Olive tree).

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. I personally suspect that this is an ongoing battle against all Gentile nations, which Christ fights using the preaching of the Word of God. (But don't condemn me if that is wrong. I'm only guessing.)


4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. This one is tough. All I know is that Christ, at His first Advent, literally stood on the mount of Olives. I don't believe that you can literally interpret the rest of the passage, unless you're a dispensationalist, and they can do anything.


5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. This, I am sure, is a picture of Christ's people fleeing the city, just as He had warned them. Some may see this as the future Second Coming, but the Bible nowhere makes that clear, so I wouldn't bet my life on it.



6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. I'm willing to wager a Confederate dollar that this speaks of the thirty-five some odd years while the believers of Israel were going through the fitst tribulation, the severe trial period, the Baptism of Fire, not knowing for sure whether they were saved or not. But maybe some Bible scholars, if they ever get off that futurism kick, can figure it out.


8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ---, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain ; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Some of these are things and events which might have happened had Israel not rejected and not crucified Christ. But now they won't happen, and never will. If these are to happen, then Christ and His Salvation, and the Church, would have to be replaced by the rebellious and unbelieving nation Israel. I shudder at the thought!

As it happened, the believing remnant of N.T Israel was raptured "immediately after the tribulation of those days," the twelve tribes of O.T. Israel were raised up and taken to heaven. I'm sure they live in the New Jerusalem, and are ruled by Christ with His disciples for the "thousand years," which are not a literal 1000 years, but a relatively long period of time. Meanwhile there are "Jews" on earth today, but they are "Pseudo-Jews." whose ancestors have some 2000 years ago, been turned into "unbelieving" Gentiles. They are not blinded, and can come to God through faith in Jesus Christ any time they wish. Rather than Christians accepting their ways of belief and worship, which rejects Christ, we should be teaching them the biblical truth.

I wouldn't worry too much about God not fulfilling His promise of the land and all of that to Abraham and the Israelites. They are living in a city with streets of gold. I doubt if they are bitter about not getting to keep the dry, rocky, dusty land of Palestine, as promised. Because Christ came, God has given them something far better.

I don't think that faithful Gentiles will be any the worse off, either. At the end of the thousand years, the Church Age, Satan will be released to cause chaos, but we (if it happens in our lifetime) will be pretected by the Seal of God.

There is no evidence that anyone was raptured in the first century. We would have had plenty of written accounts of this had it happened. This is an effort to force the Bible to fit your otherwise seemingly workable interpretation.

Not necessarily This Rapture applied only to the Jews, and only for the purpose of taking them out of this world, and away from Gentiles. Their misson was completed, the Gospel was passed on to Gentiles, and would go forth into the world. This was the time when God would fulfill His promises to Abraham and all his faithful descendants.

Only those concerned needed to see the rapture take place. It would happen in the twinkling of an eye. I think that there was a reason for making it so fast. It would be a secret event
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord. I think that all the believers had to profess faith in Christ, and show evidence of it by enduring to the end, in order to be able to see Him. So, ABC; CBS; CNN; NY TIMES; and even FOX, would not have seen anything to write about .

Patrick

"But now they won't happen, and never will"

>What a rant you present

>Picking and choosing the visions of the Bible prophets that you think will happen ..... and will not happen

>This behavior is forbidden by the Lord

>You are in the business of "adding" and "taking away" from scripture in order to prove your falsehoods of preterism

Stephen:
I would like to accuse you of "adding" and "taking away" from Scripture in order to prove your falsehoods of (whatever system you go by) but I can't. You never use any Scriptures, and you never try to prove anything; you simply rant, and accuse me of "attacking." I didn't realize that I was attacking anyone or anything.

If futurism is your thing, then you are engaging in behaviour which is forbidden by the Lord. You ignore or belittle the words of Christ. Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. He spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD70, but you say it isn't true.

Deut. 7:
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

You espouse doctrines which say that nearly all of God's covenants with Israel were unconditional, yet totally ignore such Scriptures as the above, and accuse Him of being unfair in dealings with Israel, punishing and rewarding a generation thousands of years removed from the actual generation in question. The truth is, God actually did reward, and punish, the deserving generation.

By the way, you seem to be hung up on sticking labels on everyone, but you never reveal what your label might be.

Try analyzing Deuteronomy 7:9, and say it isn't so.

Patrick

www.biblefacts.net

"You never use any Scriptures"

>Nonsense

>Your debating tactics will not work on me

>Preterism is one of the most aberrant teachings around

>I know Gary Demar and he has jumped into satan's frying pan of deception

The whole problem with Preterists is a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching in regard to 'the dual application of prophecy'. Many Bible prophecies have historic, as well as future fulfillments. Thus, any argument in regard to past, partial fulfillments is beside the point. This prophetic double application from the Scriptures may be easily proven from the Bible.. It also reveals how widespread the Preterist view has been throughout Christian history. The principle of double application changes how we view other prophecies ( in the Book of Daniel for example) once the principle is properly and fully extended.

What a premillennialist (armed with the Biblical principle of double application) calls only a "partial" fulfillment in history past, the Preterist calls a "full" and complete fulfillment. The premillennialist awaits the "full" fulfillment in the future. The Preterist sees nothing left for the future in the prophecy. But how does the Preterist account for the missing details that were not fulfilled in history past? He simply maintains that the details were never meant to be fulfilled literally. Thus, the Preterist must take some details literally and others figuratively. The problem is that many of these details are found in the same Bible verse.

Concerning Israel:

35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Jeremiah 31:35-37


The heaven is immeasurable by man as are the foundations of the earth.
The Sun, moon and stars, as ordinance remain.

Thus God's covenant with Israel remains ... forever.

My debating tactics cannot to be outdone by your "hit-and-run" tactics, right?
What club do you belong to, Preterist, or Futurist?
But, Stephen, why so much anger?

Patrick

I am never angry ..... just direct

Your presumptious evaluation here is another debating tactic

Your preterism and my rendering of the scriptures are miles apart

Really no common ground .... I would go so far as to say none at all .... 0

So, in your rendering of Scriptures, is this covenant conditional, or unconditional?
As you can see, I'm not making any presumptious evaluation. In fact I'm not making
any evaluation at all.

Deut. 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God,
which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and
keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Patrick

Another conspiracy theory. If the Jewish believers were raptured in the first century, than who wrote Revelation? John is Jewish. Revelation was written long after 70 AD.

Also, you can't say that the elect of Mat 24 are Jews only.

Who Are The Elect?

When Daniel was writing his book, the "mystery of the church" was not revealed yet. That is why there is no specific mentioning of the church in the Old Covenant prophets' writings.

"4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs (with the believing Jews) , members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Eph 3:4-6.

After Pentecost, the gentiles were welcomed into the New Covenant made with Israel and thus, they also became "the elect."

Since the blood of Messiah was shed on the cross, there is no division in God between believing Jews and believing Gentiles. We are all in one body. Think about this:

"11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." Eph 2:11-22.

Therefore, in light of this, we can see that Paul's idea of "the elect" was the church consisting of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. So Paul would have naturally understood that "the elect," whom Jesus said would be gathered "immediately after the tribulation," are the church of believing Jews and Gentiles, not just Jews alone. There is simply only one "elect." The "elect" are now the new phenomenon of spiritually united Jews and gentiles that the New Testament calls the church.

"So, in your rendering of Scriptures, is this covenant conditional, or unconditional?"

>You already know what I am going to tell you

>Volumes of scripture tell that the Lord's intent is to restore the kingdom to national Israel

>His insistence on this issue is the very thing that you as a preterist refute

>He says it over and over again throught the entire Bible without reserve

>I know where all of the details are recorded in scripture on this matter .... all of them

>So I can never agree with your modified version of interpretation

>His punishments of the nation for intransigence are His temporary responses only and He even makes this fact very clear

>His ultimate commitment is "unconditional" ..... and for His purposes

>Not for Israel's, yours, or mine

>When you say no to His intentions on this issue .... you are standing against Him

>Not a good place to be

>What you are doing is trashing His authority and direct intent on this matter by carving the volumes of His stated objective out of the Bible because you apply "conditional" out of context

>I would have to say that your view here is one of direct blasphemy against Him

There is no substantial evidence that John wrote Revelation after AD70.
Futurists only have external "hearsay" evidence, which is not at all reliable, but they push it for all it's worth.

I can't argue with you there. But if all the saved were raptured, who would be left on earth to preach the Gospel and evangelize the world?

The old covenants were meant for Israel. So was the New Jerusalem created by God for Israelites. I don't know how Gentiles would fit in, but again, I can't argue.

Patrick

Stephen:
Your answer doesn't hold water, so to speak, If Deuteronomy 7:9 doesn't mean what it says, then your volumes of scripture which tell that the Lord's intent is to restore the kingdom to national Israel don't mean what they say, either.

By the way, in case you missed the whole point of my posts, God did indeed restore the kingdom to Israel. Jesus told His disciples that in His Father's house were many mansions, and that they would rule the twelve tribes of Israel from twelve thrones. That is taking place in heaven, even as we speak.

But only the saved Israelites are there. Not the Pseudo-Jews and their descendants who hate God and Jesus Christ. They will receive no kingdom.

Christ came to confirm the covenant with many in Israel, and to offer the kingdom to the nation. But they rejected Him, and didn't accept the Kingdom. So, if God had intended to restore the kingdom to Israel, come what-cha-may-call-it or high water, they should be in their kingdom today. But they don't have the kingdom. Why? Because the covenant was conditional, exactly as Deuteronomy says. If they had loved God, and obeyed His commandments, they would have "owned" the kingdom for a thousand generations, not just a thousand years. A "thousand generations," I percieve, means all eternity. But if not, even a thousand generations is quite a long time.

Futurists, who seem to have some kind of mysterious stake in convincing the world that Israel will receive the kingdom no matter what they do, have concocted this off-the-wall "postponed kingdom" theory, saying that because they rejected the kingdom, it has been postponed until He returns. That flies in the face of all possible logic, and every word of Scripture. If the covenant had been unconditional, then God could not have cancelled the kingdom, nor postponed it. A kingdom postponed for some 2000 years might as well not be a kingdom at all.



No it is not.
Just read the Bible, and take what it says as the "Gospel Truth." God, in times past, put up with the foolishness of Israel for His Name's sake, but rejecting His only begotten Son, and killing Him, was the last straw. Matthew 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. They didn't! and notice. it says "last of all." That was the last time God would try to restore the old nation of Israel.


And let Christ have the preeminence in all things. He sometimes seems to overrride the O.T. Let Him. He wrote both Testaments, so He knows what He is talking about. Luke 21:22 makes it clear that all Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled by th end of the war in AD70.

Patrick

www.biblefacts.net

"Your answer doesn't hold water, so to speak, If Deuteronomy 7:9 doesn't mean what it says, then your volumes of scripture which tell that the Lord's intent is to restore the kingdom to national Israel don't mean what they say, either"

>Your statements here are in direct conflict with the Lord Himself

>And the scriptures involved are His .... not mine

>You have a very serious and deep seated problem and you had better get it resolved before it is too late for you

>It is fearfull thing to fall into the hands of an angry God you know

>Are you just deceived .... or are you intentionally and knowingly refuting the Lord's Word?

................. or both?

>Come clean and do tell if you dare

>Just what is your MO?

>I have always pondered about your type and whether you really know what you are doing or not

The Lord's intent to restore to Israel the kingdom was "go" until they refused the kingdom. Does that clear it up for you?

Patrick

No clearing at all

All scriptures related to this subject tell an entirely different story

You will need to find another who does not know this fact in order to sell your story

Preterism is not a valid interpretation of the Bible at all

The Day of the Lord
Though some expositors consider the locusts in Joel 2 as literal locusts, it is probable that they described an army which devastates like the locusts did in chapter 1. It was typical of military invasions that they would ruin everything which they conquered. In any case, the destruction was described as an event of the Day of the Lord. This was fulfilled in the Assyrian captivity, not future.

You can't argue with that, can you Steven?
On second thought, I'm sure you can.

Patrick

3] First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. [4] They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." [5] But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. [6] By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. [7] By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

[8] But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. [9] The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.



he will return and as scripture makes clear and you said you could not argue the point, the elect that await the return of the Messiah Yeshua are both believing Jews and gentiles together as one body of believers.
It does not have to meet all our logic. In fact is was considered a mystery by all until Yeshua revealed what that mystery was. That the gentiles would be ingrafted into the promises of Abraham WITH the jews, not separate.
The reason the long wait is A. he is patient as said before, and B. the jews have had a partial hardening of their peoples hearts toward their Messiah for denying him as such, the first time he came.
Why is there a long period other than what i just gave. Because the MEssiah had to come once as a suffering servant. and next he will return as King of Kings.
and on another note, the great tribulation by Yeshua's own words is the worst time in history never equaled before or never to be equaled again. This most certainly would have to be the most known and recored events in the history of the entire planet. This would be more talked about than all the wars of the world. this would overshadow the holocaust and wwii, wwi, the dark ages, antiochus epiphanes reign or horror, Nero's reign or horror.
But instead it is not even recorded.
All we have is the roman invasion of Israel due to the rebellion of the Isreali people against their rule. This was in Gods plan as punishment by covenant against the nation of Israel by denying Gods Savior as fortold by moses and the prophets of old. this had to happen so that the mystery of gentiles being ingrafted could come about.
Israel's plunder and conquering was not even the worst the Israelis have faced in thier histories, much less the worst time in human history


these are yet to be fulfilled,but soon to come about

Stephen:
Your continuous hammering against preterism is becoming a bore. Please explain what preterism really is, so I can be as mad at it as you are.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This is in the KJV Bible. I don't know whether it is just like that in the Greek, because I don't read Greek. Is it a good translation, or a bad one? If good, explain it to us. If bad, explain why.

Patrick

"Stephen:
Your continuous hammering against preterism is becoming a bore. Please explain what preterism really is, so I can be as mad at it as you are"

>Preterism is a bore

>Get tired of it

>You know very well what preterism is

>My advice to you is to nail your preteristic views to the wall and to start your search for truth over

>You will find it in the scriptures of the Bible

>Come clean and do tell if you dare Dude I use to talk like that when I had a paper sword and a sheet tied around my neck......

Stephen:
I took your advice, and found the truth in the Scriptures of the Bible. It's great! You ought to try it yourself, sometime.

Patrick

"I took your advice, and found the truth in the Scriptures of the Bible"

Better look again son

if all the saved were raptured, who would be left on earth to preach the Gospel and evangelize the world?

That is exactly the point there. If the end had truly come, than all the nations would have had a clear witness of the gospel preached and demonstrated to them. This has likely not even happened yet to this very day.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Mat 24:14.



So, if God had intended to restore the kingdom to Israel, come what-cha-may-call-it or high water, they should be in their kingdom today.

Not so. It was fortold by the prophets that they would go through an extended period of being set aside under God's judgment upon their sin.

"14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear and go away;
I will carry off, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to my place,
until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face,
and in their distress earnestly seek me.

6:1 “Come, let us return to the Lord;
for he has torn us, that he may heal us;
he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.
3 Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord;
his going out is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth.” Hoseah 5:14- 6:3.

"4 For the children of Israel shall dwell many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or pillar, without ephod or household gods. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their king, and they shall come in fear to the Lord and to his goodness in the latter days." Hoseah 3:4-5.

"12 He said therefore, "A nobleman went into a far country to receive a kingdom and then return." Luke 19:12.

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property... Then he went away... 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them." Mat 25:14-15, 19.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Mat 23:37-39.

All of these scriptures assert that there would be a long season of Israel experiencing the absence of God's presence, kingdom and Messiah while they remained in the sin of unbelief. In Hoseah, God said:

"I will return again to my place,
until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face,
and in their distress earnestly seek me."
Notice the word "until." This says that there will be a long period of time that Israel does not acknowledge their guilt and seek His face. Jesus reiterated this when he said
"Jerusalem... I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Mat 23:37,39.

Also, Paul further explained the purpose of this long delay.

"23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved." Rom 11:23-26.

Part of this period of Israel being under judgement for their unbelief is that the "fullness of the Gentiles" must "come in." This seems to imply a substantal number of the righteous remnants of all nations as well as possibly a spiritual quality or condition that will be realized among this mulit-national remnant of all nations called the church. Paul also said that the purpose of their being a church age at all is thus:

"11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!" Rom 11:11-12.

This means that the phenomenon of Gentiles being added into the kingdom of God that was promised to Israel is a temporary thing that is a by-product of Israel's judgement for their unbelief. The nations are benefiting from Israel's temporary hardened hearts. Those who do repent and receive Jesus as Israel's Messiah are called to be a gospel witness to the unbelieving in Israel until the end of the age. Paul quoted from Deut 32:21.

"21 They have made me jealous with what is no god;
they have provoked me to anger with their idols.
So I will make them jealous with those who are no people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation."



How can you say that? Let's be reasonable here.
The old covenant was indeed conditional for Israel to receive the Law's promised blessings. But God's promises to Abraham did not have conditions. This is where futurism comes into play. The New Covenant was cut with Israel, both with the believers and unbelievers. Carefully observe how Jeremiah did not single out that there would be a certain remnant that the New Covenant would be cut with, but that it would be made with all of the Israelites, indescriminately:

“31 Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jer 31:31-34.

This is why Hebrews says that the external regulations of the Law were no longer required of Israel.

"According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, 10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation." Hebrews 9:9-10.

This "reformation" was that the way into the presence of God was made "new and living."

"11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance ," Hebrews 9:11-15.
"19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh," Hebrews 10:19-20.

Now, the unbelievers in Israel are being called by God to repent and believe the gospel. God will not ever abandon them because He has promised that the entire nation would experience the fullfillment of Abraham's blessing that can only be given through Jesus. That day obviously has not come. The reason that many of us futurists have a stake in the restoration of national Israel to God is because this event is the fuller and further demonstration of God's faithfulness to His promises to Abraham. This is a very significant revelation of God's very glory to the world. We are saved out of the historic fulfillment of God's faithfulness to His promises to Abraham, when Jesus died and rose again, by our putting faith in Jesus for salvation. Our faith also rests on the resolve of God to deal with the people of Israel and bring every last one of them into righteousness through the New Covenant in Jesus' blood. He will not give these blessings to those in Israel who reject His Son. That is a big part of the reason for the final "great tribulation" that Jesus, Jeremiah, Daniel and all the prophets spoke of.

What about all the obstinate unblievers in Israel? In the end, there will have to be a culling of these. They will (by the mercy of God) not die without some sort of genuine gospel witness being shown to them through the church. They will have their fair chance at repentance. Carefully read these passages with special attention to the emboldened words.

"20:1 In the seventh year, in the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, certain of the elders of Israel came to inquire of the Lord, and sat before me. 2 And the word of the Lord came to me: 3 “Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God, Is it to inquire of me that you come? As I live, declares the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you. 4 Will you judge them, son of man, will you judge them? Let them know the abominations of their fathers, 5 and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: On the day when I chose Israel, I swore to the offspring of the house of Jacob, making myself known to them in the land of Egypt; I swore to them, saying, I am the Lord your God. 6 On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most glorious of all lands. 7 And I said to them, Cast away the detestable things your eyes feast on, every one of you, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the Lord your God. 8 But they rebelled against me and were not willing to listen to me. None of them cast away the detestable things their eyes feasted on, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt.
“Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them and spend my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt. 9 But I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made myself known to them in bringing them out of the land of Egypt. 10 So I led them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live. 12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness. They did not walk in my statutes but rejected my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; and my Sabbaths they greatly profaned.

“Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them in the wilderness, to make a full end of them. 14 But I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out. 15 Moreover, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land that I had given them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most glorious of all lands, 16 because they rejected my rules and did not walk in my statutes, and profaned my Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless, my eye spared them, and I did not destroy them or make a full end of them in the wilderness.

18 “And I said to their children in the wilderness, Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor keep their rules, nor defile yourselves with their idols. 19 I am the Lord your God; walk in my statutes, and be careful to obey my rules, 20 and keep my Sabbaths holy that they may be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God. 21 But the children rebelled against me. They did not walk in my statutes and were not careful to obey my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; they profaned my Sabbaths.

“Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them and spend my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 But I withheld my hand and acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Moreover, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them through the countries, 24 because they had not obeyed my rules, but had rejected my statutes and profaned my Sabbaths, and their eyes were set on their fathers' idols. 25 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the Lord.

27 “Therefore, son of man, speak to the house of Israel and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: In this also your fathers blasphemed me, by dealing treacherously with me. 28 For when I had brought them into the land that I swore to give them, then wherever they saw any high hill or any leafy tree, there they offered their sacrifices and there they presented the provocation of their offering; there they sent up their pleasing aromas, and there they poured out their drink offerings. 29 (I said to them, What is the high place to which you go? So its name is called Bamah to this day.)

30 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go whoring after their detestable things? 31 When you present your gifts and offer up your children in fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, declares the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you.

32 “What is in your mind shall never happen—the thought, ‘Let us be like the nations, like the tribes of the countries, and worship wood and stone.’

The Lord Will Restore Israel
33 “As I live, declares the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out I will be king over you.
34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples,
and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face.
36 As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you, declares the Lord God.
37 I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant.
38 I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel.
Then you will know that I am the Lord."
Ezekiel 20:1-38.

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So we see that there is to be a final scattering and judgment of Israel. Notice the order of events:

1. "I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out."
I and many others submit that this is the current gathering of Jews into the modern state of Israel.

2. "I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples,"
This is a future scattering of many of the Jewish people, both out of the state of Israel and most or all other nations where they currently find security and refuge. Those in the state of Israel's borders will flee from that land out of fear for their lives at the hands of their enemies.

3. "there I will enter into judgment with you face to face."
This is an allusion to Exodus 33:11.
"Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend."
God will finally begin to encounter the nation of Israel in a very real and intimate manner, comparable to the personal encounters God had with Moses, while they are in flight in the "wilderness of the peoples/nations." This history changing encounter will happen only through the true church's witness to them during that time. The true church will, at the time, also be experiencing the persecution from the antichrist coupled with the "great falling away/rebellion" against Jesus.

"3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed," 2 Thes 2:3.

The two groups will be placed in the same predicament together: hiding from the persecution of the antichrist. This will provide the last opportunity for the church to be a martyre witness to Israel as the church will inevitably be laying down their lives for the survival of the Jewish people. This will be done out of God's faithfulness to the promised made to Abraham. The hard hearted unbelievers in Israel will be culled off during this time. The rest will either have come to faith in Jesus or will do such shortly after His return. Those who came to faith after his return will be the populace of the promised, Jesus ruled, Israelite theocracy during the millennium.

4. "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant"
This is using pastoral imagery. God is likened to a caring shepherd, personally counting each animal by name. Israel's righteous remnant will be personally gathered again unto God. This means that they will begin to enter into the fullness of blessing that was promises to Abraham. This can only happen through a relationship with Jesus, their promised Messiah, the son of David. The covenant refered to is the New Covenant. I say this because the New Covenant places the laws of the Old Covenant into the very nature of the people, their hearts. Of course, the Old Covenant's external regulations concerning washings, food and drink are no longer required of Israel because of the sacrifice of Jesus. So this covenant is the new one. It requires an obediant faith in Jesus as Israel's Messiah, not outward conformity to Old Covenant, Messiahless Judaism.

5. "I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel."
This is the final culling of the willfully rebellious unbelievers in the population of the people of Israel. They will also attempt to flee for their lives, but this will inevitably prove to be a doomed effort. The forces of the antichrist, as the appointed agents of God's wrath against sin, will find them and destroy them. It is a very harsh future that is promised to the willfull unbelievers. This time to come will eclipse the magnitude of the Nazi holocaust. I say that because the curses upon disobediance described in the Law prescribe an ever increasing measure of wrath outpoured after each judgment goes unheeded with no repentance. The holocaust was the last time God opened the windows of heaven and poured out a limited but severe judgment upon the unbelief of Israel. The future holocaust will be worse, but it will be the final season of God's wrath upon Israel and thewonderful result will be far more glorious than any other period of Jewish history combined. The cross was the most terrible and ugly experience for God's Son, but the final outcome of that dreadful time is the glorious kingdom of God that the resurrected Messiah is going to be king over, beginning in the millennial reign and ending in the eternally renewed creation.

Excellent rendering above of the truth from scripture regarding national Israel and the nation's future involvement at the time of the end of this present age .... in fact, air tight

Dump the Futurism.


Patrick

I will never dump the truth

Israel rejected Him and the kingdom, and crucified Him. That was the midst of the week, when He was cutoff, and thereby ending the sacrifice and oblations. The Bible ignores the remainder of the week, because the prospect of the kingdom being delivered was no longer a prospect; the second half was no longer relevant.

The second 3.5 years or times had to be fulfilled in the end time.

There are 7 apointed times of God Jesus a "week" of feasts during a 7 month period.

Jesus fulfilled 3 feasts (times) Passover, Unleavened bread, firstfruits and Pentacost (half a time as only the bride is visible and not Jesus).

Jesus had now to fulfill the last 3.5 years or feasts, "He will come like the former (Pentacost) and Latter rains Ingathering of the Harvest"

Deu 11:14 then I will give you the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your grain, your new wine, and your oil.

On the 7 th months we find the remainder of the last 3 feasts (times). The latter feast
s are fulfilled in the spirit, as Jesus brought salvation to earth He had to bring salvation to Heaven... To redeem heaven.

Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Jesus also had to pay for Heaven with spiritual blood, NEW wine. (Atonement).


Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. 3.5 years.... Or times

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

When Salvation came to earth we heard a voice in the wilderness, John now hears a voice in heaven....

Jesus redeems all creation, the heavens and the earth. so the last 3.5 years are fulfilled in the Spirit in revelation.
They represent the fulfillment of Trumpets (the beginning of the 2nd work of Jesus in the spirit or in heaven).

The He is caught up to the throne of God Atonement (as the high priest "Melchizadec" or Jesus enters the Holy of Holies, in God's presence. Then a war breaks out when Jesus overcomes Satan in heaven like He did on earth...

Jesus then fulfills Tabernacles, Jesus being revealed as the bridegroom, Unleavened bread and Tabernacles are 2 "wedding feasts" as they last 7 days....

Like Jacob paid for Leah, and got Rachel the following Sabbath but He had to pay for her as well. likewise the first Adam got Eve on the first creationnal day (carnal bride), and in that the 7th creationnal day the Sabbath, Jesus gets the last Eve....
But has to pay for His heavenly bride (of the spirit), New Jerusalem which proceeds from God.

So the last part of the week finds fulfillment in heaven actually.

God opens our understanding because it is happening NOW in this "day"...

Hope this helps.

You are way off course with your rendering