I've been thinking about this all day and last night. It's really been heavy in my heart though for a long time. If there is one truth, one Word, one Bible, one Messiah, one God...then why are we so divided, for the most part? Do you guy's stop for one moment between breaths to really ponder and pray and consider that what you are perceiving is the truth?

For example: We all pretty much agree we worship or atleast love the Lord God of Abraham, right? So if we all worship and love the very same and only God ever and ever will be..then why are we at odd's regarding His word? What if you are wrong and the person you are battling is presenting you the truth but you refuse to let go of what you think is right?

I know...I know, it's a lot of questions and I don't expect anyone to answer them all, it's not really a questionnaire, just something I would like to discuss if you're interested? I know this much, I do love Yahweh and His Word and I am not perfect as I've stated numerous times; but I believe He has been leading me for some time and teaching me about His Word and I've no doubts at all that He is leading many other's...but being there is only one of Him, then why do some of us have such oppositional views regarding His Word? And what makes you know you are right and the other person is wrong? Maybe...we are both right?

There are seven spirits and seven churches...?

1Jn 2:27 And the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and as He taught you, abide in Him.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth:

That's it. The only way we can know any thing for sure.

John
14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


This is the beginning of truth and what one must focus upon and believe before the Lord will give further revelation and understanding

We are living in very difficult and confusing conditions today and one must understand that the professing church has become infested with falsehood

The Lord is the only one who can bring clarity and meaning to the scriptures and He will for any who diligently seek Him without self gaining motives

He will withhold nothing from those who do this

He will with hold much from those who attempt any other approach

One must apply themselves and must be willing to make their seeking the most important mission of their life

It takes effort, dedication, time, and self discipline

One must also develop a solid foundation of understanding by keeping their focus upon Him each and every day of their life .... and not to follow others and every whim of leading

Do not let others take charge of your destiny as a believer

You are accountable and must do it yourself

It is not necessary to understand all there is to know about the things recorded in His Word .... your salvation does not depend upon this

But, you must strive to seek all that your are capable of

This is the essence of following Him in truth and expectation

One must build a knowledge of the Lord and His Word step by step with ever increasing awareness

Then one can truly say they are standing on His Word, His promises, and His intent

All of this He has given and all of it can be learned and understood by those who seek it from Him alone


2Timothy
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It is because I can not know the truth, not in this life time, but only believe in the truth as I live. That is all Christ expects out of me.

I am fully in agreement with those passages researcher. And I do feel He is teaching me. Do you feel the same? I know I certainly cannot take credit for the change He has been making in me, when I look back even 2-3 years ago I hardly recognise that person as me.

This might be a little off topic, but I'll try and guide it back as a point:
I used to believe and think that the "wheat and tares" or the "sheep and the goats" were separate individuals ( and that made still apply ) However, I pondered upon some things last night and this passage came to mind:
Luke 17:34
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
And this passage:
Matthew 24:18
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
*clothes could also be considered inner/outer garment* Strongs #2440

So what I am getting at is: Are there two of me and two of you? Part of us is wheat and another part is tare? Consider the reapers who come before the Day of the LORD:
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Now again; I still consider a possibility that wheat and tares are separate individuals living along side one another in this world. Except when you apply the above passages, it actually seems more that the tares are in us or part of us?

Was I clear enough? I'm really not good at explaining things on line.

Yes, and, Yes. Lol.

I believe tares = sin in the flesh, and, that sin is a spirit.

2 Thess 2:10"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."


Looks like "love of the truth" is something we should all want.

How to get it ?


Matt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you;

seek, and ye shall find;

knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Quit watching TV and read the Bible...

That is the solution to the lie...perpetuated in every media.

Seek God and you will find Him. Don't let go and don't give up. Hold on to the Word.

Stop judging, start forgiving, and allow grace to be your adornment.

Bless God. Don't curse yourself by cursing your neighbor, and if at all possible
live in peace within your means and be satisfied.

Then God will bring you a crown...that no man can take.


Shalom,
Signet

Wow Stephen, I must say, I'm quite impressed. This was not only a very humble response but also I think I may have sensed a twinkle of love Your response was also sobering because these are very confusing and difficult times; even more so for those of us who still believe in Jesus Christ, so many people have fallen away from Him, for this reason or that reason. And I'm sympathetic to the fact that unfortunately, false teaching's and false doctrines have been a leading culript in causing many to fall. I really feel that I've been fortunate or blessed not have been subjected to so many various teachings. I was raised Baptist and remained as such until more recent years when I just left the church scene and went into the Bible. I prefer the intimacy and purety that comes when I just sit and read His word(s) and seek Him in such manner. I've learned more in these recent years about Him then I learned attending Sunday school and Sunday service.




I really appreciate the words you wrote here; they are very solid grounded in Yahshua and helpful in many way's, most especially regarding certain issues that have really been heavy in my heart over the past year even. In essence like you stated, we really cannot and/or should not hold anyone else asside from ourselves, accountable for or to our salvation. Meaning if I know Him and yet I continue to read false teachings regarding Him, then it is not the person teaching it's fault, it is mine for not being more faithful to Yahshua and seeking a teaching that is comfortable or tickling to my ears..you agree? What looks good and seems right may not always be as such.



This verse hit's me everytime I read it, to be not only confident in the Lord Yahshua, but also test myself and be sure that I'm not falling into this ever learning catagory without ever reaching the knowledge of Truth. I know we're all decent at testing one another, but we ought to also test ourselves, peek into our hearts periodically and check that we're not becoming overly comfortable or proud or complacent.


Thanks again; you're entire response and passages were very uplifting, inspiring and helpful.

Well I definitely love Truth; that is, His Truth. Do I want all the answers? Honestly..I just want Him. I was talking to my Mom tonight and she said something to the effect that everyone wants to go to heaven and/or live forever, but hardly anyone anymore wants to see God there. And she's right! Just looking around at some of the garbage people are believing, particularly the new age type stuff and the "god within" buddah, brahma tao stuff..yeah, these people all want a eutopia (sp?) but they want it their way and where they are god's. I told my Mom that I would forego heaven just to be with my King Jesus; He is all I want, He is Heaven to me.





That is double or even triple confirmation because I'm driving to the store this evening and one of the churches had that exact verse on their little sign

(This thread has turned out a little different than I'd expected, and that's awesome)

I agree with you 1000%. And I stopped watching TV, reading the paper and reading world headlines a long time ago. It's all distracting and loud to me. And you never know what is true and what is fabricated or rumoured. So why put ourselves through that fire? I do watch some movies every now and then...but most times; they are not impressive and I'd much rather be reading the Bible or discussing Yahshua.

Good advice signet; that all of us should adhere to.

We should make a discussion/topic about wheat and tares, sheep and goats and reapers? I know I don't SEE angels around me and in the world; but I honestly feel some things being plucked out of my mind. I mean; let's face it, I can change my mind (I'm a woman hehe) but I cannot, nor do I have power to change or renew my perception...which is much more awakening and sobering than even three years ago.

God has been freeing me from "tares" for quite a while. Lol.
This is probably one of the best examples of God taking something "out" that I have up.
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...c=15625&hl=
I had so much freedom after that, it was unreal, but, more was to follow!

Very good question and it is a critical question which every individual must face. In fact there are two questions.
1. Is there an absolute truth?
2. If there are so many religions then how can I be sure that the one that I was born into is speaking the truth?

It is essential that we do not gloss over these questions. We have faith yes thats true. But so do Muslims Hindus and Pagans. How do we know that our faith is true and theirs is false. Absolutely critical question.

There are other questions.
3. Did God intend for us to be divided or did he intend us to be in unity of belief?


What if indeed. Very true.


There are seven spirits and he has millions of angels but these all come from the One God. Does the One God have seven different truths one for each church. Or does he have one truth which he sends throughout the world by his Spirit. Did God have one Son which he sent into the world speaking the truth or did he have seven Sons which all spoke different things and were in disagreement with one another. And did Jesus start seven churches all of which teach different things. And did he build the seven churches on seven different rocks.

No he gave one set of keys to one disciple and built one church upon one rock teaching one truth. In doing so that every opposition of the satanic realm would array itself against that one church and yet despite these attacks the one church would prevail until the return of Christ.

So which is that one true church?

Well to help us, lets examine some of the characteristics of this true church. In fact there are four main markers of the true church. They are
1. The true church is ONE and is in unity. We have already discussed this marker in length. Jesus said ""I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd."(John 10:16). The other sheep were the gentiles which he brought into the fold and they become one flock, one church, with one shepherd. Jesus also said "John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;" 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. "
The church is Christs body. Does he have one body or 7 bodies?

2. The true church is Holy or Sanctified. Set apart for a specific purpose by Christ "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church," Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. And the specific purpose Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mark 16 Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. The church is the vehicle by which the gospel of salvation by grace is carried to the entire world.

3. Universal. The church is universal meaning that it exists for all nations, races and people. It exists in every part of the world and excludes nobody regardless of their race, class or gender. This is what the term catholic means. It simply means that the church is universal. "Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:18-20) Christ sent His apostles to preach to the whole world - to all mankind. Notice all nations are to receive the gospel of peace and be baptised.

4. Apostolic. This means that the true church must exist in a continued and unbroken body from the time of the apostles all the way through to the current time. This is where the concept of apostolic succession is extremely important. Apostolic succession means that the apostles handed on their office and authority to other men who were custodians of these offices and authority and then passed them down to still more men in each generation and that this has been going on in an unbroken chain through to the current day. This concept is explained in the scripture "So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone." (Ephesians 2:19-20)

These principles have been understood since the earliest times which is why the Nicene Creed dated 381 AD states
I believe - In one holy catholic and apostolic Church;

Now which church and which church alone exhibits all of these characteristics. There is only one church on all the earth which has these characteristics entirely and that is the Roman Catholic Church.
At one time the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches were united in one. However over a period of time they split off from the Roman church and seperated themselves so that there was no longer one church but several. To this day the Eastern churches are not one even amongst themselves they all have their own Popes and are seperated eg. Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox. Therefore despite having all the other three characteristics they fail on the first one.
Then came the protestant reformation which seperated from the One Holy Catholic church. Clearly it is not one. It has thousands of different sects, cults, denominations and is so divided that there is no way that it can be called one. Also it does not have Apostolic succession. Its founding bishops were excommunicated from the One Holy Catholic church for teaching heresy and illegally ordained its own bishops. To this day the protestants spend their days protesting against the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church. So although they have a certain amount of sanctification in that they preach the gospel they come up terribly short on the other characterstics. Some of these churches are universal in nature but others are very selective. They only exist in certain regions of the world. They may only admit certain races. They may highly favour individuals from a certain socio-economic background, or who have a certain identifying ideology. In reality there are very few truly universal protestant denominations.

Many protestant denominations try to get around their terrible lack in these areas by trying to argue that although visibly we are divided and not universal we are nevertheless one with the invisible universal church. This concept of the visible and invisible church is however itself an innovation of the reformation. Nowhere in scripture is it to be found therefore it should be rejected under the very sola scriptura rule which the reformation also concocted as an excuse for its division and seperation from the one holy apostolic catholic church. Does Christ have an invisible body or a visible body?

Invariably where division and seperation occurs we see the work of the enemy the devil. It is he who desired to divide and conquer. It is the work of God to seek unity. Where division and seperation exists there also exists rebellion. The scripture condemns rebellion teaching that rebellion is the sin of witchcraft. Korah rebelled against Moses and the ground swallowed him up. Luther rebelled against the Pope as did Zwingli and Knox and the other protestants. What has become of their churches which they raised up on a different foundation other than the foundation of Christ and the apostles? They all fell apart and today have split into a bewildering array of splinter groups which are hotbeds for every imaginable heresy. Their demise is proof that they were never the one holy catholic apostolic church for if they had been then they would not have failed. And which church throughout all the years is still standing with identical doctrines to those held throughout all the ages of Christians? There is but one. The Roman Catholic Church.

I was a protestant born and raised into a protestant church and ideology. Just as you are doing now I had to examine the very same questions you are facing today and these are my deliberations and my conclusions which I offer to you now for your reflection and consideration.

All the best with it Selah

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jesus said the Father words are truth

Jesus told the Father to sanctify(separate us with his truth)

Jesus also said

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

that your truth and you end it there!!!!!

if you have any doubt this is where faith is being tested.

who do you believe?

if you stop watching tv or reading the newpapers how will you follow this command

Mt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mk 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

1Thes 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

the Lord said

Jn 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

the Lord had written

Rv 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

now since Satan is here among us

this is what we have

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

and another doctrine


1Tm 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

what we have today is the doctrine of men.

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

and the Lord said

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35: For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36: And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37: He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38: And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Satan has changed the doctrine of God by using men

we have another Jesus
we have another doctrine
contrary to the truth which is the word of God!

This topic is so interesting. For some time Researcher has been teaching that different sins in each of us are different spirits that must be removed. I agree in part and yet see tares and wheat as different entites.

However....the scripture you mentioned....

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

....Does make me wonder. Does it mean only the good wheat is taken and the tare part left behind? Or is it more literal than that? Are there two different entities being spoken of...actually two separate men and two separate women grinding.


And too, I wonder....at the 7th trump, when the elect are gathered. Is it automatic? Will the gathering be upon our death...when the witnesses die? Are we given a choice...to stay with family (return to get clothes) and is this the reason Peter was given as our example....he denied Christ. Will we in that moment?

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for My sake shall find it.

I don't know....I need to think more about this. Hopefully He will open more understanding for now it is just me trying to see. But....very interesting thoughts from both Researcher and Selah. Wow...lot's to think about.

With regard to sin and the tares and wheat, would should not neglect the instruction Jesus gives about the various sowing of "the seed".
Jesus very clearly makes the distinction between 2 separate entities apart from each other. Not the indwelling of the 2 in one body.


Matthew 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "


In His Love,
Suzanne

"I told my Mom that I would forego heaven just to be with my King Jesus; He is all I want, He is Heaven to me"

>What you have stated here is precept number one ..... nothing else matters

>Build on this one and keep your focus upon Him

>Never, never, never move away from this truth

>Take His Word [the Bible] in your hand and ask Him for understanding

>You will get it ..... but you alone must seek Him without interference

>One must approach Him by themselves and if you do .... He will respond

>He speaks very softly and on His schedule .... so you must persist in your seeking

>With your Bible in your hand .... He will always speak through His written Word

>We must also realize that it will be a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God

>This same Lord who gives truth expects one to believe Him and to take Him at His word

>Wheat and tares, virgins with lamps filled and those without, those who are ready .... and those who are not, one taken .... one left, one on fire for the Lord .... another lukewarm, sheep on the right hand .... goats on the left hand, the resurrection to life .... the resurrection to the second death .............

>The Lord is a "Separator" ..... and this He will do

>He knows His own ..... and He knows those who pretend, and or are following something else

>He has drawn the line .... nothing in between

>All humans must decide who they will choose to follow

>There is only one way .... He has said this

>Only the Lord Jesus Christ can save and there is no other way

>And do not .... let me say it again .... do not let your guard down to the call of false prophets and false teachers

>If you do, you can lose the game [this is possible ... He has warned about this] .... beware of those who would steal your crown

Amen, Stephen.

Couldn't agree more!

In His Love,
Suzanne

You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The truth is Jesus Christ. He is the one we must know. We must know his character and nature until we are him! Completely immersed and identified with him! Then we will be free.
So the truth is progressive. It has a beginning and an end. This we know, albiet in the interim we toil with our shakles and chains.

That certainly seems to have answered the question....Thank you.

You're welcome.




In His Love,
Suzanne

Maybe when God made "skins" for Adam and Eve, it wasn't animal skins as many suppose. It doesn't say anywhere that it was animal skins. Maybe God clothed their souls/spirits with flesh, and, anything that was in them at that time (sin), was also enclosed with it. Thus, sin in the flesh. I don't know!

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins, and clothed them.

They already had clothed themselves with fig leaves, so, they knew how to make themselves clothes, why would God make them clothes right after?

Hi Excubitor (what does that mean btw?)
Thank you very much for your response! To be honest I'd not ever considered some of* the things you pointed out and I felt a bit of sorrow for her (The Roman Catholic Church) Look at the state she's in today. Has she always had Mary/rosery worship and saint worship? Do you know what pope means? Father or "papa", and people call the pope; holy father. That is not a placing for any man upon this earth EVER. Infact we are told:

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

So although you've given many informative things/thoughts and facts to consider; there is no way, just no way that the Roman Catholic Church is THE Church spoken of here:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(I'd say by observation that the gates of hell have prevailed against the RCC) So she cannot be the rock where the church is built.

I would say this; I was a Baptist but today I am person in Christ that can not be labeled. I just believe and that cannot be stamped nor labeled with this denomination or that sect or religion. It drives people absolutely bonkers when they demand you to tell them what religion or sect you are of and where you obtained your "belief" or faith and you say from the Bible; that is not good enough for enough people, it's like they just have to know and then they accuse you of being from some cult.
I say..OK if you want to call the Bible a 'cult' then that is between you and God. Human beings have to have something to pin or stamp upon you..why? Why can I not just be a faithful believer in The Word of God/The Son of God? When did that suddenly become non sufficiant? Or not enough?

OH! I just recalled this passage:
Luke 12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

So again...I'm not altogether sure about that unity here on earth. We're told too that He Himself will gather us together. But what happened is man gathered together before the time appointed

Excubitor is Latin for guardian or watchman.


Have you even considered actually asking the church whether or not these things are true or what the explanation is for the things they teach? Have you listened to their arguments with an open mind and a believing heart. Most of us here have preconceived ideas about what the RCC teaches which have been fed to us from the cradle by our protestant parents who have been driven by an irrational dislike and suspicion bordering on hatred. In this forum I have dealt with each of these issues in great depth and explained the truth of the matter on each of the points you have raised.

I haven't got time to do it all again but if you want to raise one point at a time I can show you the relevant thread on this forum where we have discussed the issue.
Suffice it to say that as a Catholic you would not be asked to go against your conscience and pray to Mary or the Saints. These reasons are not adequate for the churches not to be in communion. And if you make an effort not to meet the Pope you will not ever be in a position of having to call him Holy Father.


If that is the case then the gates of hell have indeed prevailed against the church. Because the RCC is the ONLY one holy apostolic universal church in the world which has an unchanging doctrine for 2000 years. I refuse to believe that Christ was wrong when he declared that hell would not prevail against the church. In fact the Bible talks about a great falling away in the last days. For that to occur there must be a large number of people in a visible church from which to fall away from, still existing in the last days.


Yes it drives me bonkers too. Saying that you are a Bible believer gives you no identifier with any group or sect. Because all of these various churches, sects and cults all believe in the Bible. Not being identified with any church or sect you therefore become invisible without any identity. The church is not invisible. It is visible to the world like a city set upon a hill. It is recognisable for its doctrines and traditions and its deeds. It is recognisable as a body of people in fellowship and love with one another in unity of belief. I believe / We believe is the theme of the Catholic Catechism to reflect that the church is unified in its belief. It is an utterly incredible document. Even now (assuming you are a fairly conservative Baptist), opposed to the RCC as you are, I doubt that there would be more than 20 paragraphs out of 2863 paragraphs which you would find any disagreement on.

Struck with this tiny disparity I worked openly and honestly through those 20 paragraphs and came to see where the Catholic church was coming from on those issues and was able to reconcile them to my beliefs from the scripture. It was not easy, but to me it was evident that the church was not asking me to believe anything heretical, nor is it asking me to do anything which is against my conscience. It is not easy to overthrow a lifetime of prejudice. I grew up in a sect believing that the Catholic church was the harlot of Revelation and that all the christian churches were the whoring bastard daughters of the RCC. Having come to see the daughters were not bastard whores after all I was then forced to question whether or not their mother was a whore also. So is there only whoring women in the Bible upon which we model churches or are there also Holy pure and precious mothers upon which we prefigure churches (Mary - the eschatological icon of the church is the correct theological term) ?

So whereas we all believe that the RCC is the whore of Babylon, the RCC regards us as daughters of the mother church sadly seperated. What a contrast in belief.

The same RCC that charged for forgiveness of sins and whose priests are child molesters?

I hear a lot of people saying this very thing. But consider John; he received all of the revelation of Yahshua whilst he was exiled to the Isle of Patmos. What makes a person believe that God cannot speak to them about His Son without man-made devices, that in my opinion are distracting to Yahweh's Word.

We watch in the Spirit, pray in the Spirit and be awake and sober in the Spirit. For God Himself is a Spirit and the true worshipers whorship Him in:
Spirit
Truth

That is all it takes and that to me is faith. Faith is turning off the TV, turning off the world and sitting in the silence reading His Word and hearing Him speak in that soft still voice; the voice that is unheard in the sea of masses of the world to date.

What you said in your first response was awesome and true, but it goes in opposition to the response you gave above.

Yes this topic IS interesting because it has turned into something I actually was not intending it to turn into...and that leaves me to believe that it was not me who was necessarily thinking of these things; but Him within me. I was really floored at some of the responses here. I began seeing some real amazing and godly fruits between some of the words from some of you all. And also very helpful in our journey toward the finish line

As for the wheat and tares: I'm still reading and praying about it, for understanding and if Yahshua is willing then it will be revealed. I do think there are individuals in the world today that are of this entity:
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

But I also think, if I understand properly the Scriptures, that in each of us is also two people; one might be considered Cain and the other Abel. How did they get there? I don't believe it was done by an act of pro-creation as many believe. I believe it is a seed; but just like Yahshua say's here:
Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
But somehow, and at some point, the enemy came in sowed his seeds and went his way. And those seeds are in the word, with the *good* seed. And I don't limit it to the Bible; because the enemy sowed them in the field, which is the world.

So far that's all I can think to add about this. I need to pray about this more.

Agree, nothing "in" me, would be sin.




Not quite so in agreement. Ha, LOL. Then again, I don't know everything.

Hi Selah,


There is a literal seed too. Not just the Word of God but seed as in posterity. The enemy that sowed that seed sowed his literal offspring....not words.

I'm worn out today so will say goodnight....I look forward to talking with you tomorrow.

Man of sin. Yep; prince of this world.




Yeah well neither do I Researcher. It's not about knowing everything though, is it? And when you start talking about seedlines and stuff it get's so obscure and complicated and confusing and frustrating and plain ole..not worth it. Like Yahshua say's here-through Paul:
1 Timothy 1:4
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

It does become endless and fruitless to discuss bloodlines. Maybe we're all serpent seeds and thus is why God sent His Son to save us Nevertheless...who of us can search bloodlines in order to identify who is who? So it becomes an endless discussion in my opinion. Although...I have met some I would consider from the father of lies; I believe not genetically, but because they choose him over Father in Heaven

They did not charge for the forgiveness of sins. They abused the concept that giving in alms is beneficial for the restitution of sins. This is along the lines of
Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Prov 6:30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry; 31 But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house.

Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. 9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Restitution for sin is a moral requirement and the church had the role of advising how restitution should be made and those things which could be done to repay the damage that the Christian formerly did. All sin is toward God and is utterly forgiven, but sins to our neighbours are remedied through restitution. Where it was not possible to restitute the offended the sinner could give alms to the church for the distribution to the poor. Jesus himself and his disciples had this system in place whereby Judas carried the bag of money and contributions for distribution to the poor. Now Judas was corrupting the system and skimming, diverting the funds to himself. Sadly there were certain individuals in the Catholic church who abused the system as well as did Judas. But does this make the concept itself sin. No it just means that the abuse of the concept is sin.

Now Pope Leo I think it was during Luthers time was spending up big on a grand new cathedral ( like protestants don't do that) he also had a fairly opulent lifestyle, however one of his virtues was that he was also extremely generous. He was renowned for his gifts to the poor. It seems though that many were seeking his favour by collecting funds and were putting undue pressure on the poor church members in so doing. This is of course reprehensible but does not altar the fact that the underlying concept of giving alms to the church for the restitution of sins is a just and proper principle.

Nevertheless the Catholic church in order to absolve itself and remedy this abuse changed its rules at the Council of Trent so that money could no longer be given as alms for the restitution of sins (the name given for these payments and deeds was indulgences). Indulgences are given now for other pious deeds but not for gifts of money. You can't as more than that from them. What more can they do?

But with protestants there is no forgiveness, no the crimes of 400 years ago are amplified and distorted becoming more fanciful and exaggerated with each passing generation.

Meanwhile you can go to the catholic church and never hear a plea for money all year, and yet you go to the protestant church and every week get berated for not giving enough money in the same breath as the catholic church is condemned in the manner you just have. They spew forth hatred against the RCC as they drive in their limousines to their five star hotels and restaurants. They collect thousands of dollars for their appearance at conventions and appear on television raking in contributions for their latest building program. What hypocrisy.

And then the protestant church goer sees this hypocrisy and hardens his heart and buckles his wallet and becomes a miser of his money.

As for the abuse of children by priests. It is a mortal sin and priests found in this sin and have and will be excommunicated. The church cannot be condemned for the sins of its members or clergy. Homosexuality is rife in protestantism. Does this alone make the protestant religion false? No, you wouldn't say that. So why do you condemn the catholic religion by that very principle.

Excubitor-Watchman
I'm reading everything you're stating here as it is definitely wisdom to consider and ponder. The RCC reminds me of this woman:

John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

There may have been a time before the Son of God's walk, ministry and preaching of the Kingdom coming, that men would have stoned the woman; but notice they did not and they all walked away. This ensample can go for a literal person and also I feel it can be applied to RCC..so many throw stones at her today; and yet...look at the state they are in (speaking of the break off religion(s) ) *and others*

I appreciate your tender and merciful manner and it is one of the very core anchors that are the Gospel teaching and one that is not seen much by people today at all...unfortunately. Many people have allowed lawlessness to wax their love cold and frozen.

I'll contine reading your words and carefully considering. All though I have no intention on going back to a "church" I am where Yahshua has me for now; and who knows where I might be tomorrow or even 10 minutes from now..except He

Well I see your analogy and I think its valid. Individuals in God's church have committed many sins in the past and very often people can transfer the crimes of those individuals to the entire church, even to its doctrines, sacraments and traditions. Therefore the church needs forgiveness just as we all do. After all the church is a collection of sinful men some of which are tares and wolves sent in by the enemy deliberately to destroy the church. Remember the parable of the wheat and the tares. The Lord said Don't pull out the tares lest you pull out some of the wheat with it. Therefore the church has historically shown a reluctance to excommunicate ie. throw stones. Many commentaters attribute the reformation was partly due to the Pope and his bishops tardiness in that they should have excommunicated Luther years earlier for his divisive attitude and teachings.

You asked in your OP How do we know we are in the truth? Then you said in your last post "I am where Jesus wants me to be". So I ask you back. How do you know that you are where Jesus wants you to be? Does he want you to be unchurched or does he want you to go to church. And if he wants you to go to church, which church does he want you to go to? Drifting along waiting for the divine winds to change is not the answer. Earnest seeking and door knocking, prayer to the gates of the heavenly kingdom is. You set off down that path with your OP but your last post showed a hint of "what will be will be". Jesus said "Seek and you will find"

I was going to talk to you about the fact that you are not going to church and whether or not that was Jesus' will for you to go to church or not, but it was just coming out like a lecture. I think if you seek him as I describe above you will find out the answer to that one soon enough.

Well I know I must be where He wants me to be, otherwise I'd be somewhere else. LOL Ok that sounds goofy. But seriously this is why:
1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

I began to actually develop a "relationship" or intimacy with God when I began one on one in His Word. I thought you know all the years I'd say things like "I'm a Christian" and "I love Jesus Christ" but I asked myself.."Do I"? Do I even know the one I am going betrothed to? I needed some guidance that I did not have in the church scenerio, I needed to know, "Do I love this building and preacher or God"?

So there you have it. I was "called" in His Word and this is where I stay until He moves me or comissions me elsewhere. I have to know His voice first before I can discern the voices in the wind etc..

By the way...I have gone to a few services. I was very disappointed I heard some songs, a prayer and a story about the pastor and his son pertaining to football or something or other (see I cannot even remember, it did not even retain) My reason to go to church would be for fellowship IN Yahshua, and praising Him and hearing meat in due season, I did not find that in the past church services I attended. Does that mean they all have lights out? No, but I am not in a position to go seek through over 600 churches in my area...Yet!!!

Also consider:
Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.