The Time of The End
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel, is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago, and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago. It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System. That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later, during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
We Gentiles will have another time of the end which hasn't happened yet. The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much.
Patrick
www.Biblefacts.net
"If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end"
The events themselves .... not the words and understanding ..... are sealed until the time of the end
Daniel is given explanations for his visions .... all of them
And one can know and understand what is recorded today
Your idea about these particular visions being fulfilled in the past and or cannot be understood is absurd
There is no record of these events having taken place in recorded history .... none of them
All are for the "time of the end" just as Daniel is told multiple times through out the prophet's encounters with divine inspiration
You are following the scoffers of preterism and I would suggest that you move away from this aberrant teaching
The devil is telling you these lies .... and your own salvation is at risk because of it
The events themselves .... not the words and understanding ..... are sealed until the time of the end
Daniel is given explanations for his visions .... all of them
And one can know and understand what is recorded today
Your idea about these particular visions being fulfilled in the past and or cannot be understood is absurd
There is no record of these events having taken place in recorded history .... none of them
All are for the "time of the end" just as Daniel is told multiple times through out the prophet's encounters with divine inspiration
You are following the scoffers of preterism and I would suggest that you move away from this aberrant teaching
The devil is telling you these lies .... and your own salvation is at risk because of it
The teaching of preterism is a lie
The Lord's Word through His prophets regarding Israel and the time of the end is truth
Isaiah
11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
Jeremiah
30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:
36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
The Lord's Word through His prophets regarding Israel and the time of the end is truth
Isaiah
11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
Jeremiah
30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:
36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Oct 27 2008, 11:09 AM) 
The teaching of preterism is a lie
The Lord's Word through His prophets regarding Israel and the time of the end is truth
Isaiah
11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
Jeremiah
30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:
36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
The Lord's Word through His prophets regarding Israel and the time of the end is truth
Isaiah
11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
Jeremiah
30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:
36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Stephen:
What are you trying to say?
Patrick
www.biblefacts.net
QUOTE (Stephen @ Oct 27 2008, 10:50 AM)
"If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end"
The events themselves .... not the words and understanding ..... are sealed until the time of the end
Daniel is given explanations for his visions .... all of them
And one can know and understand what is recorded today
Your idea about these particular visions being fulfilled in the past and or cannot be understood is absurd
There is no record of these events having taken place in recorded history .... none of them
All are for the "time of the end" just as Daniel is told multiple times through out the prophet's encounters with divine inspiration
You are following the scoffers of preterism and I would suggest that you move away from this aberrant teaching
The devil is telling you these lies .... and your own salvation is at risk because of it
The events themselves .... not the words and understanding ..... are sealed until the time of the end
Daniel is given explanations for his visions .... all of them
And one can know and understand what is recorded today
Your idea about these particular visions being fulfilled in the past and or cannot be understood is absurd
There is no record of these events having taken place in recorded history .... none of them
All are for the "time of the end" just as Daniel is told multiple times through out the prophet's encounters with divine inspiration
You are following the scoffers of preterism and I would suggest that you move away from this aberrant teaching
The devil is telling you these lies .... and your own salvation is at risk because of it
Stephen:
You're scaring me! I say what the Bible says, which is that the Book of Daniel was sealed until the time of the end, and you're saying it was not. Where is your revelation coming from?
QUOTE
There is no record of these events having taken place in recorded history .... none of them
I disagree. Let's look at only one verse, Dan. 9:27:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Modern translators "retranslate" this, and many understand that it speaks of the "Antichrist" making a covenant with Israel. Where they get that from is a mystery, because Scriptures support the truth that this was Jesus Christ confirming God's covenant with Israel for one week. In the midst of that week, He ended the sacrifice and the oblation. That was His doing, not the Romans'. That was what He came to do. Futurists may argue that the sacrifices continued until the temple was destroyed in AD70. They did. But show me anywhere in the Scriptures where those sacrifices did anyone any good. They were hollow gestures of unbelieving reprobates.
And here's a question which you cannot answer from the futurist's viewpoint:
"for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..." Who was going to make it desolate? You say the Antichrist. Why was he going to make it desolate? For the overspreading of abominations? But the antichrist is himself the epitome of abominations. Tell me, what caused him to
have such an attack of righteous indignation that he would destroy a city because of their abominations? I think he would have been right at home there, like a pig in a mud puddle.
The only answer is that this "He" was the Lord Jesus Christ, not some Antichrist. It was Christ who put hooks in the jaws of the Roman generals, and led them, willy-nilly, to carry out His judgement on the reprobates of Israel.
Patrick
www.biblefacts.net
Let's stop now Patric
I know preteristic teaching as well or better than you do .... and it is false .... hands down
The scriptures do not support what you are pushing on the forum
"Stephen:
You're scaring me!"
I hope so .... maybe you will wake up to the truth .... maybe you will not
Unless you are willing to recant your present position there is nothing I can do to convince you
And I do not need to
You are accountable for your own behavior with regard to the Lord's Word
I know preteristic teaching as well or better than you do .... and it is false .... hands down
The scriptures do not support what you are pushing on the forum
"Stephen:
You're scaring me!"
I hope so .... maybe you will wake up to the truth .... maybe you will not
Unless you are willing to recant your present position there is nothing I can do to convince you
And I do not need to
You are accountable for your own behavior with regard to the Lord's Word
QUOTE (Stephen @ Oct 27 2008, 03:48 PM)
Let's stop now Patric
I know preteristic teaching as well or better than you do .... and it is false .... hands down
The scriptures do not support what you are pushing on the forum
"Stephen:
You're scaring me!"
I hope so .... maybe you will wake up to the truth .... maybe you will not
Unless you are willing to recant your present position there is nothing I can do to convince you
And I do not need to
You are accountable for your own behavior with regard to the Lord's Word
I know preteristic teaching as well or better than you do .... and it is false .... hands down
The scriptures do not support what you are pushing on the forum
"Stephen:
You're scaring me!"
I hope so .... maybe you will wake up to the truth .... maybe you will not
Unless you are willing to recant your present position there is nothing I can do to convince you
And I do not need to
You are accountable for your own behavior with regard to the Lord's Word
You seem to be your own source of ultimata truth. You preach hell-fire and brimstone, but you don't show relevant Scriptures, nor do you explain your Scriptures if you have any.
Let's narrow this discussion down to one verse, if possible, and see if we can come to some kind of agreement on that one verse. You pick the verse, any verse.
Patrick
www.biblefacts.net
No thanks
I see what you are up to and have no desire to play your preterist game
Maybe you can get Eli, G, NM, and JP to come and play with you ... but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you while waiting
Any further discussion between us would be an exercise in futility for you and a waste of time for me
I see what you are up to and have no desire to play your preterist game
Maybe you can get Eli, G, NM, and JP to come and play with you ... but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you while waiting
Any further discussion between us would be an exercise in futility for you and a waste of time for me
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 02:34 PM)
The Time of The End
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel, is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago, and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago. It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System. That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later, during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
We Gentiles will have another time of the end which hasn't happened yet. The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much.
Patrick
www.Biblefacts.net
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel, is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago, and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago. It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System. That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later, during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
We Gentiles will have another time of the end which hasn't happened yet. The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much.
Patrick
www.Biblefacts.net
If you haven't noticed there are Jews back over there pretending again.
The end hasn't come yet not even according to the books of Daniel.
The seals on the books of Daniel have been opened by the Spirit of God through his endtime messengers.
The problem is that the devil has planted so many errors and false doctrine in the average scholars foundation that they don't know who or what God and Christ is anymore.
In Short "They have to be shown because they are debased and can't understand.
They will even blaspheme Gods messengers to their face when they are shown because their god, their vanity, "the devil" has led them astray.
QUOTE (Stephen @ Oct 27 2008, 08:17 PM)
No thanks
I see what you are up to and have no desire to play your preterist game
Maybe you can get Eli, G, NM, and JP to come and play with you ... but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you while waiting
Any further discussion between us would be an exercise in futility for you and a waste of time for me
I see what you are up to and have no desire to play your preterist game
Maybe you can get Eli, G, NM, and JP to come and play with you ... but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you while waiting
Any further discussion between us would be an exercise in futility for you and a waste of time for me
Expositing the Bible is tougher than just preaching, isn't it?
Patrick
www.biblefacts.net
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 06:26 PM)
QUOTE (Stephen @ Oct 27 2008, 03:48 PM)
Let's stop now Patric
I know preteristic teaching as well or better than you do .... and it is false .... hands down
The scriptures do not support what you are pushing on the forum
"Stephen:
You're scaring me!"
I hope so .... maybe you will wake up to the truth .... maybe you will not
Unless you are willing to recant your present position there is nothing I can do to convince you
And I do not need to
You are accountable for your own behavior with regard to the Lord's Word
I know preteristic teaching as well or better than you do .... and it is false .... hands down
The scriptures do not support what you are pushing on the forum
"Stephen:
You're scaring me!"
I hope so .... maybe you will wake up to the truth .... maybe you will not
Unless you are willing to recant your present position there is nothing I can do to convince you
And I do not need to
You are accountable for your own behavior with regard to the Lord's Word
You seem to be your own source of ultimata truth. You preach hell-fire and brimstone, but you don't show relevant Scriptures, nor do you explain your Scriptures if you have any.
Let's narrow this discussion down to one verse, if possible, and see if we can come to some kind of agreement on that one verse. You pick the verse, any verse.
Patrick
www.biblefacts.net
Patrick you are joking with all this right.
thats funny I think you had some of these guys thinking you were serious.
QUOTE (1st john 5:11 @ Oct 27 2008, 09:39 PM)
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 06:26 PM)
QUOTE (Stephen @ Oct 27 2008, 03:48 PM)
Let's stop now Patric
I know preteristic teaching as well or better than you do .... and it is false .... hands down
The scriptures do not support what you are pushing on the forum
"Stephen:
You're scaring me!"
I hope so .... maybe you will wake up to the truth .... maybe you will not
Unless you are willing to recant your present position there is nothing I can do to convince you
And I do not need to
You are accountable for your own behavior with regard to the Lord's Word
I know preteristic teaching as well or better than you do .... and it is false .... hands down
The scriptures do not support what you are pushing on the forum
"Stephen:
You're scaring me!"
I hope so .... maybe you will wake up to the truth .... maybe you will not
Unless you are willing to recant your present position there is nothing I can do to convince you
And I do not need to
You are accountable for your own behavior with regard to the Lord's Word
You seem to be your own source of ultimata truth. You preach hell-fire and brimstone, but you don't show relevant Scriptures, nor do you explain your Scriptures if you have any.
Let's narrow this discussion down to one verse, if possible, and see if we can come to some kind of agreement on that one verse. You pick the verse, any verse.
Patrick
www.biblefacts.net
Patrick you are joking with all this right.
thats funny I think you had some of these guys thinking you were serious.
Patrick is just a preterist looking to get some attention. For a good many Christians in the world, this position is both heretical and an insult to one's intelligence.
Like any other cult, Preterists feed on those who are unlearned and untaught. Indoctrination can be a horrible thing, and when one becomes indoctrinated into the precept of men, escaping its grip can become extremely difficult. As you know, it's important for all of us to read our Bibles as much as we can. So we can know the truth and so we can defend ourselves against the false teachers in today's world. We should all remember that part of proclaiming the truth...is exposing these falsehoods.
God's Blessings!!
Rob
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 09:34 PM)
The Time of The End
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel, is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago, and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago. It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System. That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later, during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel, is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago, and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago. It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System. That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later, during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
Basicly agree with you that the Jews had their "end" nearly 2000 years ago.
Hate to quibble, but I'd say the "end" came the day the Temple was destroyed.
I believe a lot happened during these end time events that I would not expect secular history to tell us about.
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 09:34 PM)
We Gentiles will have another time of the end which hasn't happened yet.
The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much. Patrick www.Biblefacts.net
The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much. Patrick www.Biblefacts.net
I don't why you discount the Revelation information about our coming "Gentile" end time events.
The doctrine of preterism is one of convinence thereby opening up the possibility for all sorts of inserted falsehoods
This process is a washout of many Biblical truths which can then be replaced by human theologies
One of the primary holders of preteristic teaching is the RCC
Not the only one for sure
Many protestant denominations including fundamentals, and the "christian" cults do the same
The devil walks in the halls of professing christianity when the door is open to him
This process is a washout of many Biblical truths which can then be replaced by human theologies
One of the primary holders of preteristic teaching is the RCC
Not the only one for sure
Many protestant denominations including fundamentals, and the "christian" cults do the same
The devil walks in the halls of professing christianity when the door is open to him
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 10:34 AM)
The Time of The End
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel, is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago, and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago. It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System. That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later, during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
We Gentiles will have another time of the end which hasn't happened yet. The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much.
Patrick
www.Biblefacts.net
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel, is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago, and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago. It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System. That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later, during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
We Gentiles will have another time of the end which hasn't happened yet. The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much.
Patrick
www.Biblefacts.net
Jesus fulfilled the time of the Jews, His first words were "the time if fulfilled the kingdom of God is at hand."
When Jesus redeemed the world He fulfilled the time of the Jews at Passover, on the cross. When they handed Him over to the Romans, the gentiles. Thus begins the time of the gentiles.
Jesus said when the gospel is preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations the end will come.
He also said whent the time of the gentiles are fulfilled the end would come.
These two events are one in the same (one end).
The time of the gentiles is fulfilled when Jesus redeems heaven (Atonement.)
Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
When Salvation came to the world, we heard a voice in the wilderness, now the voice is in heaven, to proclaim salvation in heaven.
Jesus was on earth to make an end to the time of the Jews, He must be here again to make an end to the time of the gentiles.
Funny thing is Tabernacles will be celebrated by peoples from all nations, biblically Tabernacles is a representation of the times of the gentiles. (all nations). To fulfill a feast is to keep a feast.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Oct 28 2008, 06:27 AM)
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 09:34 PM)
The Time of The End
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel, is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago, and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago. It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System. That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later, during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel, is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago, and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago. It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System. That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later, during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
Basicly agree with you that the Jews had their "end" nearly 2000 years ago.
Hate to quibble, but I'd say the "end" came the day the Temple was destroyed.
I believe a lot happened during these end time events that I would not expect secular history to tell us about.
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 09:34 PM)
We Gentiles will have another time of the end which hasn't happened yet.
The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much. Patrick www.Biblefacts.net
The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much. Patrick www.Biblefacts.net
I don't why you discount the Revelation information about our coming "Gentile" end time events.
QUOTE
Hate to quibble, but I'd say the "end" came the day the Temple was destroyed
. I agree 100%QUOTE
I believe a lot happened during these end time events that I would not expect secular history to tell us about.
Exactly. I believe the rapture of the Jews happened then, which happened so fast (twinkling of an eye) that no one saw it. This was a secret coming (and going) which may not have been anybody's business but those concerned. But everyone saw Christ's return with the heathen Romans to judge rebellious Israel. Even the ones who pierced Him saw. They were of the generation that was still alive.I don't discount Revelation. There is past history there, and also some prophecy of the future.
what I am saying is that there is not as much written about our future as there was about Israel's future demise --- which happened a few years after Revelation was written.
Chapters 8, 9, and 10, are among them. In chapter nine, Satan is released from the bottomless pit, at the end of the thousand years, as is given in Revelation 20. I haven't worked out some of the other chapters to my own satisfaction, but Chapter 12, I know, is an abreviated history of Israel, up to some point in time time before AD70.
Chapter ten shows that Revelation was written before AD70, because John is still young enough to prophesy before many peoples, etc. In this chapter, John also saw the angel announce that in the days of the seventh trump, time would not be much longer.
Patrick
www.biblefacts.net
QUOTE (Stephen @ Oct 27 2008, 10:50 AM)
"If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end"
The events themselves .... not the words and understanding ..... are sealed until the time of the end
Daniel is given explanations for his visions .... all of them
And one can know and understand what is recorded today
Your idea about these particular visions being fulfilled in the past and or cannot be understood is absurd
There is no record of these events having taken place in recorded history .... none of them
All are for the "time of the end" just as Daniel is told multiple times through out the prophet's encounters with divine inspiration
You are following the scoffers of preterism and I would suggest that you move away from this aberrant teaching
The devil is telling you these lies .... and your own salvation is at risk because of it
The events themselves .... not the words and understanding ..... are sealed until the time of the end
Daniel is given explanations for his visions .... all of them
And one can know and understand what is recorded today
Your idea about these particular visions being fulfilled in the past and or cannot be understood is absurd
There is no record of these events having taken place in recorded history .... none of them
All are for the "time of the end" just as Daniel is told multiple times through out the prophet's encounters with divine inspiration
You are following the scoffers of preterism and I would suggest that you move away from this aberrant teaching
The devil is telling you these lies .... and your own salvation is at risk because of it
QUOTE
"If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end, then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end"
Exactly! That's what I said.QUOTE
The events themselves .... not the words and understanding ..... are sealed until the time of the end
Pray tell, how is that supposed to make any sense?QUOTE
Daniel is given explanations for his visions .... all of them
I believe that's true.QUOTE
There is no record of these events having taken place in recorded history .... none of them
Check out the New Testament. The whole record is there.QUOTE
All are for the "time of the end" just as Daniel is told multiple times through out the prophet's encounters with divine inspiration
Precisely! Just as I have said. Daniel received the visions some 500 years before the "time of the end." QUOTE
You are following the scoffers of preterism and I would suggest that you move away from this aberrant teaching
I follow no one. It's all in the Bible. If you can read simple English, you, too, can understand it, without following anyone.QUOTE
The devil is telling you these lies .... and your own salvation is at risk because of it
Now that's kinda strong. But I'm not above checking it out. Give me Scriptures.Patrick
You know that I can read simple, or even complex English
Your preteristic view of Bible Prophecy is flawed to the core in my opinion
Believing what you do and say that you do places you at great risk because you deny the very foundational precepts of the Lord's second advent and related actions presented in His Word
I have to say that one who is saved and spirit led does not do this
This is a definite indication to me that you are either deceived unknowingly .... or you know what you are doing by intent
One does not have to understand Bible prophecy in order to be saved, but when one goes to the extent of developing and or following a false setting like the one that preterism provides .... this is different
The very essence of the teaching is against the Lord and His purposes
This is your situation as I see it
If you have specific question in regard to your risk, I may discuss .... but I will not debate preterism with you on this forum
Your preteristic view of Bible Prophecy is flawed to the core in my opinion
Believing what you do and say that you do places you at great risk because you deny the very foundational precepts of the Lord's second advent and related actions presented in His Word
I have to say that one who is saved and spirit led does not do this
This is a definite indication to me that you are either deceived unknowingly .... or you know what you are doing by intent
One does not have to understand Bible prophecy in order to be saved, but when one goes to the extent of developing and or following a false setting like the one that preterism provides .... this is different
The very essence of the teaching is against the Lord and His purposes
This is your situation as I see it
If you have specific question in regard to your risk, I may discuss .... but I will not debate preterism with you on this forum
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 09:34 PM)
The Time of The End
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end,
then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know
from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel,
is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago,
and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago.
It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System.
That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later,
during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (Dan. 12:9).
If the book was closed up and sealed till the time of the end,
then no one would be able to understand any of it before the time of the end.
Many Christian scholars are still waiting for the time of the end.
But at the same time, it's funny how much of God's Word they seem to know
from the book of Daniel. For years they have been publishing commentaries on Daniel.
But waiting for the time of the end is contradictory to understanding Daniel.
The reason that people generally are able to read, and (should) understand the book of Daniel,
is that the time of the end has already come and gone.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted from it 2000 years ago,
and invited anyone who would read the book to understand it.
So, the time of the end happened 2000 years ago.
It was the time of the end of Israel, the Jewish System.
That system had its beginning with Abraham, and ended 42 generations later,
during the time of Christ. (Matthew 1:17). That time was for the Jews.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Oct 28 2008, 06:27 AM)
Basicly agree with you that the Jews had their "end" nearly 2000 years ago.
Hate to quibble, but I'd say the "end" came the day the Temple was destroyed.
I believe a lot happened during these end time events
that I would not expect secular history to tell us about.
Hate to quibble, but I'd say the "end" came the day the Temple was destroyed.
I believe a lot happened during these end time events
that I would not expect secular history to tell us about.
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 27 2008, 09:34 PM)
We Gentiles will have another time of the end which hasn't happened yet.
The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much. Patrick www.Biblefacts.net
The Bible doesn't elaborate on that much. Patrick www.Biblefacts.net
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Oct 28 2008, 06:27 AM)
I don't why you discount the Revelation information about our coming "Gentile" end time events.
Hate to quibble, but I'd say the "end" came the day the Temple was destroyed
. Hate to quibble, but I'd say the "end" came the day the Temple was destroyed
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 29 2008, 03:10 AM)
I agree 100%
.QUOTE (John Prewett @ Oct 28 2008, 06:27 AM)
I believe a lot happened during these end time events
that I would not expect secular history to tell us about.
that I would not expect secular history to tell us about.
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 29 2008, 03:10 AM)
Exactly. I believe the rapture of the Jews happened then, which happened so fast
(twinkling of an eye) that no one saw it. This was a secret coming (and going)
which may not have been anybody's business but those concerned.
But everyone saw Christ's return with the heathen Romans to judge rebellious Israel.
Even the ones who pierced Him saw. They were of the generation that was still alive.
I don't discount Revelation.
There is past history there, and also some prophecy of the future.
what I am saying is that there is not as much written about our future
as there was about Israel's future demise
--- which happened a few years after Revelation was written.
(twinkling of an eye) that no one saw it. This was a secret coming (and going)
which may not have been anybody's business but those concerned.
But everyone saw Christ's return with the heathen Romans to judge rebellious Israel.
Even the ones who pierced Him saw. They were of the generation that was still alive.
I don't discount Revelation.
There is past history there, and also some prophecy of the future.
what I am saying is that there is not as much written about our future
as there was about Israel's future demise
--- which happened a few years after Revelation was written.
IMosoHO,
no poster on this forum gives the Revelation the nearly
exclusive focus the Revelation deserves/demands.
Especially on the first 3 verses and from ch 13-20.
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 29 2008, 03:10 AM)
Chapters 8, 9, and 10, are among them.
In chapter nine, Satan is released from the bottomless pit,
at the end of the thousand years, as is given in Revelation 20.
In chapter nine, Satan is released from the bottomless pit,
at the end of the thousand years, as is given in Revelation 20.
I do not know WHEN the ch 9 + 11 events occured.
However,
The events of ch 9 are not same as the events of ch 20.
[for instance,
in chapter 9 a huge human army kills a lot of people,
in chapter 20 fire from heaven does all the killing]
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 29 2008, 03:10 AM)
I haven't worked out some of the other chapters to my own satisfaction,
but Chapter 12, I know, is an abreviated history of Israel,
up to some point in time time before AD70.
Chapter ten shows that Revelation was written before AD70,
because John is still young enough to prophesy before many peoples, etc.
but Chapter 12, I know, is an abreviated history of Israel,
up to some point in time time before AD70.
Chapter ten shows that Revelation was written before AD70,
because John is still young enough to prophesy before many peoples, etc.
Several bible examples of God giving certain persons extra years.
We don't know how old John was when he transcribed Jesus's Revelation.
QUOTE (Patrick @ Oct 29 2008, 03:10 AM)
In this chapter, John also saw the angel announce that in the days of the seventh trump,
time would not be much longer. Patrick www.biblefacts.net
time would not be much longer. Patrick www.biblefacts.net
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants
[whosoever aspires to be a servant of Jesus, take to heart]
things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Who bare record of the word of God,
and of the testimony of Jesus Christ,
and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth,
[whosoever desires to be blessed, take to heart]
and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
and keep those things
which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 1:1-3
[no other book in the bible begins with such an explicit promise
of blessing to whosoever will heed that particular book]
[Jesus's sheep hear Jesus's word,.... which includes Jesus's Revelation]
John, www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett
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