DAVE HUNT CONTRADICTS CALVINISM.

DAVE'S OSAS IS WRONG, BUT DAVE RIGHTLY REJECTS CALVINISM.


http://www.thebereancall.org/node/2685

question: [similar to several others]:

While I was in a Baptist church I heard nothing but "whosoever will may come," "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved," "as many as received Him..."-all of this from man's standpoint. I don't remember any emphasis on the sovereignty of God, election, foreknowledge, predestination or the work of the Spirit drawing to salvation. When our Baptist pastor came under the teaching of some Presbyterians and began teaching these things, it caused a stir in our church. I asked, "God, which am I supposed to believe?"

I was helped greatly by Horatius Bonar's God's Way of Holiness and by Jonathan Edward's view of the will. That man has been endowed with a free will by his Creator is undeniable. But what makes the will make its choices? According to Edwards...our choices are determined by what we think is the most desirable....

[But] the mind of the sinner never thinks God to be a good choice....So unless the Spirit of God moves upon the person and the mind is changed through the miracle of the new birth, our mind...will lead us away from God. Yes, Jesus invites us to come to Him (John 7:37)...but who is it that wills to come? Only...the Father and the Holy Spirit [can] cause...the renewed sinner [to] embrace the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. Even Jesus said, "No man can come to me unless the Father...draws him" (John 6:44).

In view of this, the controversy between brothers in Christ...could be put to rest....I appreciate your stand for the truth [but] am grieved with the ongoing controversy over Calvinism and the free will of man.

response:

I respect your earnest concern. Bonar and Edwards were highly esteemed Christian leaders, but the Bible, not any man, is our authority.

You say that God gave us "free will"-but then you ask, "what makes the will make its choices?" If something or someone "makes the will make its choices," free will is not free. You say that no one has a desire to come to Christ until they are regenerated and "the Father and the Holy Spirit...cause...the renewed sinner to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior." Surely you see the grave contradiction!

If Calvinism is true, God mocks the vast majority of mankind. He calls, "Come unto me," to those who can't respond because He doesn't cause them to come. Yet He will send them to the Lake of Fire for not coming, even though He could have caused them to come! The literally hundreds of times in the Bible that God calls men to repent and weeps over Israel through His prophets are a further mockery. And He damns forever in the Lake of Fire for not believing the gospel those who can't believe unless He regenerates them and gives them the faith-and yet He refuses to do so? Is this the "God" in whom you believe? I hope not.

Of course, God is sovereign and can do whatever He pleases, and we cannot complain. But He assures us that He loves the entire world (Jn 3:16) and would "have all men to be saved" (1 Tm 2:4). Indeed, "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8,16). But this Calvinist God damns multitudes He could save. The biblical God does all He can to bring all men to Himself, but each one must choose. Of Israel, He laments, "What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it?" (Is 5:4). Jesus wept, "How often would I...and ye would not!" (Lk 13:34).

The word "freewill" appears 17 times in the Old Testament. Calvinists deny free will. They say that only those whom God causes to repent and believe the gospel will do so. Only after He has "regenerated" the sinner can God supposedly, by "irresistible grace," give him faith to believe. But the Bible says, "Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely" (Rv 22:17).

Calvinism says we must be regenerated before God can cause us to believe. The Bible says we are regenerated by believing the gospel: "being born again (‘regenerated')...by the word of God...which by the gospel is preached..." (1 Pt 1:23-25). John writes, "that believing ye might have life [i.e., be regenerated] through his name" (Jn 20:31). The Bible teaches a new birth through believing the gospel. Calvinism teaches that "regeneration" comes by an act of God before the sinner even believes the gospel. That is clearly not biblical.

This is not "hyper-Calvinism" but the Calvinism of "moderates" such as John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, John Piper, D. James Kennedy, et al. They say that God loves all men-but has a "different love" toward those for whom Christ didn't die and does not want in heaven and thus will not regenerate. That is hardly love, which is why we titled my book, What Love Is This? Have you read it? In it I deal with your question in depth. You would benefit from its thorough treatment of the subject.

Does God really want all mankind to be saved (as the Bible says) or just a select elect? Did Christ die for all (as the Bible says) or just for a select group? These are vital questions that deserve our attention. On our radio programs (Search the Scriptures Daily), all available on our website, and in our articles and Q&As of the past 20 years, you won't find an undue emphasis on Calvinism.

You say I deal with Calvinism too much. Yet you complain that only Calvinists talk about the sovereignty of God, election, foreknowledge, predestination, or the work of the Spirit drawing to salvation. Must we remain silent in the face of false views that are presented on these important subjects? Everywhere I go, Christians tell me that Calvinism is causing confusion and division in increasing numbers of churches.

I appreciate your concern and often tell the staff that I prefer not to mention Calvinism-but we try to answer the questions we are asked. I have attempted to avoid direct reference to Calvinism unless absolutely necessary. Ironically, you have caused me to respond to these things once again.

Clearly Calvinism is wrong.
But who is right? Arminianism?
The methodists realised the Calvinism was wrong and swung back towards what a more traditional teaching.
And what would that more traditional teaching be? Catholicism.
If you come to realise that Calvinism is right up the creek because you have studied the Bible and come to understand that it is wrong then like it or not, you are moving toward a Catholic belief system.
It happened to me. Every one of the pillars of Calvinism turned out to be made out of straw.
Until recently virtually all protestants were Calvinists. Then the fundamentalists who themselves were in rebellion against their protestant teachers from the mainline churches started reading the scriptures with fresh eyes. Guess what? They start ending up teaching and believing doctrines from the Bible which suprise, suprise the Catholic church has been teaching for 2000 years.

Ironic isn't it. Even though they rail against Catholics as the whore of Babylon, they are in fact closer in many ways to the teachings of the traditional Catholic church than they would dare to admit. Their love of scripture invariably drawing them back closer to that one truth of God.

The reason there is chaos and division amongst brothers is simple. An enemy with a false teaching comes into the church teaching a new doctrine specifically for the purpose of sowing discord and enmity in the body of Christ. Tolerance of one anothers differing beliefs is a noble cause but time and experience has proved that it does not work.

There is only one truth, only one faith, only one doctrine of the church. If we all believe it then we will all be united as Jesus prayed to his Father that they may be one even as he and the Father are one.

Not that I am endorsing Dave Hunt. What we have today in many modern churches is a psuedo-christianity, a horrible misch masch of christianity, new age, protestantism, calvinism, modernism. Dave Hunts statement that all men will be saved is so far off base that it is laughable. So we find that there is scarcely any theologian in protestantism today who can be relied upon to teach the truth. He may be mostly right but you can't trust everything he says or teaches. Why not? Because every man teaches what he thinks is right in his own eyes. He learns from nobody unless it suits him. He never subordinates his beliefs or whims to the higher power of church teaching. In fact he never even admits that there is such a power which governs over our beliefs. And so instead of being united, the church has become a battleground of ideas to such an extent that it bears little resemblence to the church of ages ago.

So let's consult a higher authority than ourselves on this issue.

The necessity of faith
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

Perseverance in faith
162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith."44 To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith;45 it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

Case closed. Those who have been appointed to bring order and harmony to the church have spoken and ruled on the matter. Let's humble ourselves, move on, and be at peace with our brother.

As the Catechism rightly points out it is not enough to say "I believe" it is also essential that we can say "We believe". Its when we all come to believe the same thing that we move in unity against the forces of this darkened world. Surely we all know the principle. United we stand. Divided we fall. Let not the enemy win. By saying "I believe, They believe". Let's all strive to believe in unity and stand before God saying "I believe, We believe"

you said:
Clearly Calvinism is wrong.
But who is right? Arminianism?
The methodists realised the Calvinism was wrong and swung back towards what a more traditional teaching.
And what would that more traditional teaching be? Catholicism.


my thoughts:

you're preaching Catholicism on a Christian Forum

i'm reporting you to the mods.

we don't call the pope the Name of the Heavenly Father (HOLY FATHER),,,,,,,,,,,,and you knew that.

we're not blasphemers

we don't want blasphemy on this forum.

Yeah right. Standard fare for you Dennis. Run for the mods when someone knocks your little sand castle over.
No doubt Chrio39 will jump in at your cue and slash and burn my posts. Do you think that Chrio39 is a puppet that you can dangle on the end of your string do you? I have not broken any rules of the forum as even Chrio39 was forced to concede at our last exchange. This is the debates forum as you well know.

If there is any particular point here that you can refute about anything that I have said then please feel free to answer with a rational argument instead of hiding behind your typical anti-Catholic rhetoric.

Excubitor said "If you come to realise that Calvinism is right up the creek because you have studied the Bible and come to understand that it is wrong then like it or not, you are moving toward a Catholic belief system."

Who are trying to fool. If you study the bible it is not even slightly possible to come up with Catholicism. Give us a break. The traditions of Catholicism that separate it from non idolatrous Christianity do not exist in the bible, but only in the extrabiblical rulings of the various vatican councils and decrees of so called infallable popes. Absolutely none of which is found in the holy scriptures. Vatican 2 even says Muslims are saved, yet they (the muslims) deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Roman Catholicism has moved so far off of the foundation of the Christian faith, that by the 3rd or 4th century AD it was already a corrupted and separate religious system.

Cathloics, on the other hand, are a different story. Many love Jesus and are saved. Though multitudes practice idolatry by praying to dead saints, etc., (which is not altogether different from protestants of different stripes following their own extrabiblical traditions and believing wrong doctrines) they have come into real and meaningful relationship with God the Father through the shed blood of Jesus Christ - they are born again despite the teachings of Roman Catholicism. To their credit, at least Catholics are the leading proponents of the sanctity of human life and will not tolerate homosexuality within their institution.

Well you proved me wrong Chrio. You did not delete and hack about my post this time. So credit goes to you on this one. Also I was pleased to read the positive statements which you made toward Catholics, that not all Catholics are idolators. Perhaps this generosity of spirit can be a bridge of peace between us and a platform upon which we can build an understanding.

You are under a misconception regarding Vatican 2 and the Islamic religion. V2 makes little mention of Islam. Document Lumen Gentium is 77 pages long and only one sentence mentions the Islamic religion. It simply says.
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to
the People of God in various ways.[18] There is, first, that people to
which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was
born according to the flesh (cf. Rom. 9 :4-5): in view of the divine
choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for
* the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Rom. 11:29-29). But the
* plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in
* the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold
* the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one,
* merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

Now is this saying that God has a plan of salvation for muslims is not the same thing as saying that muslims are saved. This passage is no different to the Bible statement in John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. What Lumen Gentium is doing is using the Muslim love for the one God, who judges mankind on the last day and the love for of the faith of Abraham as bridges by which Catholics reach out to muslims in the hope that muslims will be drawn to believe on Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no inference that the muslim without Christ will be saved. The purpose is to say that muslims are further along the path of revelation than the heathen in that they understand the principle that God is merciful, one and the judge of mankind.

V2 document Nostra Aetate [Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions
states
* 3. The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship
* God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the
* Creator of heaven and earth,[1] who has also spoken to men. They
* strive to submit themselves without reserve to the bidden decrees of
* God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose faith
* Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God,
* they worship Jesus as a prophet, his virgin Mother they also honor,
* and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of
* judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead.
* For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God,
* especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting.
*
* Over the centuries many quarrels and dissensions have arisen between
* Christians and Muslims. The sacred Council now pleads with all to
* forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve
* mutual understanding; for the benefit of all men, let them together
* preserve and promote peace, liberty, social justice and moral values.

This is simply a bridge which seeks to build peace amongst men. Is it not a Christian attribute to foster peace and understanding? It seeks to point out the many positive and good points of Islam, but again there is not a hint of a suggestion that muslims without Christ are saved.

A Protestant unaware of Catholic teaching will examine OSAS and conclude that it is wrong and will decide that perseverence and endurance until the end of life is required for salvation. Therefore he has moved to a Catholic belief system on the subject. That is simply a bald and obvious fact. I am not saying that he is becoming Catholic and is going to adopt all Catholic teachings. I simply said that he is unconciously moving closer to the Catholic teaching which Luther and his followers rejected all those years ago. No need to get all hot under the collar about it.

REAL christians are neither RCC Catholic nor OSAS nor Calvinist

and REAL christians don't call the pope the NAME OF GOD.....(HOLY FATHER, READ JOHN 17)

EX refuses to call God by His Real Name (which is HOLY FATHER).........and Ex refuses to admit that the pope is NOT the HOLY FATHER.........EX IS A BLASPHEMER

the pope is a blasphemer

in OT times, blasphemers were stoned to death.
in NT times, blasphemers are "cut off from the Vine (Jesus)"............John 15;1-2..........and blasphemers are burned forever in the lake of fire

of course,,,,,,,,the pope and Ex can get saved today, if they believe God and repent

Kind of extreme don't you think? Are you saying that nobody who believes OSAS can be saved? Woa!!
That every Calvinist is lost and damned because he is not a real Christian.
And what about all the Christians before the reformation. Are they all lost as well because they were Roman Catholics.
Seems like you have condemned just about everyone in your sweeping curse Dennis. Is anybody saved under your belief system?
And there you sit ranting and raving, cursing me and calling me a blasphemer and condemned to death and the lake of fire.
Think about what you are saying Dennis. The Bible says "Bless and Curse not".
The fact is that if you reject OSAS and start to believe in the perseverance of the Saints then you have adopted a Catholic belief on the subject. I posted the RCC catechism on the subject in a recent post.
Read it and weep.

Ok Ex, I can accept your point as you delineated it in your response to me, but it did not read as such in your original post. As for your comments on Dennis's comments, I get his meaning, and I get yours too. You both can be quite dogmatic, and such a response is hardly suprising. I do agree that Dennis' statements are sweeping and personally maintain that Jesus is the only righteous judge who can separate the sheep from the goats. Obviously many in those groups that Dennis named meet the biblical qualifications for salvation, though their doctrines won't pass the fire test. Sorry Dennis, you know I love you, but I've got to give this one to Ex.

quoted from EX:

Kind of extreme don't you think? Are you saying that nobody who believes OSAS can be saved? Woa!!


DENNIS'S RESPONSE:
JESUS GAVE US 2 CHOICES.........REPENT OR PERISH
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
OSAS CONTRADICTS JESUS
AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE OSAS TO PREACH........."REPENT OR PERISH"



That every Calvinist is lost and damned because he is not a real Christian.



DENNIS'S RESPONSE:
JESUS GAVE US 2 CHOICES.........REPENT OR PERISH
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
CALVINISM CONTRADICTS JESUS AND REPENTANCE
AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT

ONE OF THE 5 POINTS OF CALVINISM IS ......PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS (= OSAS)

CALVIN CLAIMS THAT GOD WANTS TO LOVE ONLY A RANDOMLY SELECTED FEW,,,,,,,,AND HATE A RANDOMLY SELECTED MANY...........THAT'S A SLANDER AGAINST THE LOVE OF GOD

CALVIN'S GOD IS NOT MY GOD............
IT'S 2 DIFFERENT GODS

AND CALVIN'S GOD IS REALLY A DEMON, MASQUERADING AS GOD





And what about all the Christians before the reformation. Are they all lost as well because they were Roman Catholics.



THE RCC CALL THE POPE THE NAME OF GOD,,,,,,,,SO THEY CAN'T BE SAVED

THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN REAL CHRISTIANS, SINCE CHRIST
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.



Seems like you have condemned just about everyone in your sweeping curse Dennis. Is anybody saved under your belief system?





I CONDEMN NOBODY...........
THEIR BELIEFS AND DEEDS CONDEMN THEM
THEIR CONSCIENCES CONDEMN THEM
THE SCRIPTURES CONDEMN THEM






And there you sit ranting and raving, cursing me and calling me a blasphemer and condemned to death and the lake of fire.
Think about what you are saying Dennis. The Bible says "Bless and Curse not".



I CURSED NOBODY
YOU CURSED YOURSELF WHEN YOU CALLED THE POPE THE NAME OF GOD

IN THE COUNCIL OF TRENT,,,,,,,THE POPE CURSED ALL NON-RCC

ALL THE RCC COUNCILS ARE STILL IN FULL FORCE TODAY





The fact is that if you reject OSAS and start to believe in the perseverance of the Saints then you have adopted a Catholic belief on the subject. I posted the RCC catechism on the subject in a recent post.
Read it and weep.


I REJECT OSAS CALVIN AND RCC

I ACCEPT CHRIST AND BIBLE

YOU HAVE DESTROYED YOUR CREDIBILITY A THOUSAND TIMES
YOU ALWAYS TWIST THE SCRIPTURE AND MY WORDS AND THE TRUTH

Yeah, twist again like we did last summer
Come on, let's twist again like we did last year
Do you remember when things were really hummin'?
Come on, let's twist again, twistin' time is here

Yeah Baby!!

You are right though in that I incorrectly used the term "Perseverence of the Saints" As you say that is the term used to describe the Calvin doctrine which we both agree is false. So thanks for correcting me on that.

Notice this from Wikipedia
"[T]he power of perseverance is neither in the human will alone nor in God's grace solely, but in the combination of both, i.e., Divine grace aiding human will, and human will co-operating with Divine grace."

The Catholic view differs from that of the Calvinists less than it may first appear, for Calvinists claim that they do not reduce man to a volitionless puppet and can thus agree that, after regeneration, divine grace aids human will and human will cooperates with that grace (compare Phil. 2:12b-13). The point of distinction is in whether God permits men to "fall away." Roman Catholics affirm that they can, and Calvinists, as described above, deny that they can if they are truly regenerate because, it is claimed, God keeps them from it.

So do you agree with the Roman Catholic view on this subject Dennis or the Calvinist view?

there is no RCC view on this subject, since RCC is not Christian Bible-belief

the Bible says:
we christians can lose our salvation, and become CASTAWAY REPROBATES...........1 Cor 9;27

we can be "cut off from the Vine (Jesus)", if we stop producing fruit........John 15;1-5

Calvin claimed that only the Elect can be saved,,,,,,,and the Elect can't avoid being saved (it's "ir-resistable Grace").........but the bible is filled with people who God wanted to save,,,,,,but they rejected God-belief

we have "assurance of salvation", if we believe.......
If we stop believing, we lose our salvation
Salvation is THROUGH FAITH

Yes this part of your post was well written. Well done Dennis Mann. I think that you and the RCC are in agreement on this point. You must feel pleased that your teachings here are aligned with 2,000 years of Christians who believed exactly as you do that we can lose our salvation. I am pleased that you have rejected the false teachings of the reformation on this point where Martin Luther and later John Calvin introduced a new idea never before heard of.

It is a wonderful thing when we can say that we are in community of belief with the writers of the Holy Scripture, the traditional teachings of Christians, and the doctrine of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I don't think I have ever been happier for you Dennis.

the RCC is not HOLY, CATHOLIC NOR APOSTOLIC,,,,,,,,,and it's not the real Church.........it is "another gospel and another (false) church".........read Galatians

the RCC is far worse than the Judaizers ever were

the pope is not the HOLY FATHER,,,,,,,,,

the God of Jesus is the HOLY FATHER.........JOHN 17

Jesus Christ would never call the pope the HOLY FATHER

the curses that the RCC hurled at me in their everlasting COUNCILS have returned to strike the RCC's own head

Yes that's right Dennis.
When the going gets tough and you are unable to provide a rational argument you can always fall back to the failing position of spouting forth your standard diatribe of anti-Catholic rhetoric.
Oh how so droll of you Dennis.
Yes, their everlasting councils, which never fail and stand the test of time. How apt of you Dennis. Droll and apt in the one post. You really are an amazing character Dennis.