Have you ever read an opinion so many times that you just kinda go along assuming it is correct?



I see a lot of repeated assumptions that the "elect" can only be the Church - Gentiles or MAINLY Gentiles - that this phrase can only refer to the Church. It does apply to the Church at times, but not ALL times.



When you consider that the tribulation is JACOB'S Trouble, that it begins with the signing of the "covenant of death", according to Isaiah 28 (and leading to a decree from God for destruction of the whole earth), everything centers around ISRAEL, does the word "elect" not also apply to the 144,000 sealed of Israel? The Jews who listen to God?



Anyways, since a lot of assumptions are based on that one tiny word, I thought it'd be a good one to study. In a way, that word is the jumping off point of a whole big ole theory about the timing of the rapture being AFTER the Second Coming.



If NO assumption is made about who this word pertains to, the whole picture starts to change.

If NO assumption is made about the parties Jesus was addressing in Matthew 24, the whole picture starts to change.

If Old Testament prophecies are studied and included instead of EXcluded, the whole picture starts to change.



The Old Testament prophet Isaiah called God's chosen people "the elect". We know that we are grafted in - the Church is also the "elect", but that title is not to EXCLUDE the Jews.

Jesus is also spoken of as "elect".



Here is what Isaiah wrote:



Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.



Isaiah 45:4

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.



Isaiah 65:9

And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.



Isaiah 65:22

They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.



What is the GOAL and PURPOSE of the Seventy Sevens as spoken of by the prophet Daniel in chapter 9 verse 24?



24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.



So the purposes are fivefold and they ALL are directed towards "thy people" - the Jews:

1. to finish transgression

2. to make an end of sins

3. to make reconciliation for iniquity

4. to bring in an age of righteousness

5. to seal up vision and prophecy



All of those things refer to ISRAEL. The purpose is not geared towards Gentiles, though the persecutors of Jews certainly have God's wrath directed AT them.



So when we see Jesus speaking to the Jews, of events foretold in the OT that pertain TO the Jews, events CONCERNING JEWS that must occur before the Second Coming of Christ, why do so many say "That's us!"

Is it?



Who is this referring to:



Matthew 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Leaving off the debate over the gathering of the heavens (which is really interesting too!), this final gathering AFTER the Second Coming of Christ, if the elect spoken of were the Jews, is a fulfillment of prophecy!

The final restoration of Israel was spoken of by the OT prophets as not occuring til AFTER the Second Coming.

We all know that the Jews, despite the existence of Israel as a nation, are still dispersed, and many worldwide have no plans to relocate to Israel. The dispersion continues.



This time, that comes AFTER the tribulation, appears to include ALL of the OT saints, as it is mentioned repeatedly "from one end of the heavens to the other". Even Daniel was was told that he would stand at the end of days:



Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and shalt stand in thy lot, at the end of the days.



In Isaiah 27 the words of Jesus are prophesied:



12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Jehovah will beat off his fruit from the flood of the River unto the brook of Egypt; and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great trumpet shall be blown; and they shall come that were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and they that were outcasts in the land of Egypt; and they shall worship Jehovah in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.



I don't even know how it got started, the generally held opinion that there is only ONE elect and that Jesus couldn't POSSIBLY be addressing and referring to the Jews who are to be saved, God's chosen holy ones. I will follow this post with one that shows the scriptures pertaining Matthew 24 and final gathering of the "elect".



Mark 13:25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



Here's some further background of Matthew 24 and also Mark 13:27 that is found in the Old Testament, beginning WAY back in Deuteronomy. All of Chapter 29 and 30 are pretty interesting, but I am only copying in a portion of 30 that relates to what is spoken in Mark.



These scriptures speak of the final regathering of the Jews, which has NOT yet occurred (there are Jews all over the place) prior to the commencement of the Millenial Kingdom:



Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither Jehovah thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto Jehovah thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul;

3 that then Jehovah thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither Jehovah thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine outcasts be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will Jehovah thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee



See that this also refers to the Jews being gathered in Heaven and on Earth, no matter where they may be. And then the end results:



5 and Jehovah thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.



Now, at what time in history were ALL faithful Jews in HEAVEN and on earth, to be regathered by God (or to be more precise, God's angels)? Only at the end will this happen - before the Millenial Kingdom. So this is an unfulfilled prophecy until that time.



Isaiah 11:11 to 12:6 - (I'm only going to copy in Isaiah 11:11+, but there IS more)

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord will set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, that shall remain, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.



12 And he will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.



13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and they that vex Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.



14 And they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines on the west; together shall they despoil the children of the east: they shall put forth their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.



15 And Jehovah will utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his scorching wind will he wave his hand over the River, and will smite it into seven streams, and cause men to march over dryshod.



16 And there shall be a highway for the remnant of his people, that shall remain, from Assyria; like as there was for Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.



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Isaiah 43:5 Fear not; for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;



6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the end of the earth;



7 every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yea, whom I have made.



And in Jeremiah, the regathering for the Millenial Kingdom:



5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.



6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.



7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that they shall no more say, As Jehovah liveth, who brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;



8 but, As Jehovah liveth, who brought up and who led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all the countries whither I had driven them. And they shall dwell in their own land.

---

31:7 For thus saith Jehovah, Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout for the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Jehovah, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.



8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the uttermost parts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall they return hither.



9 They shall come with weeping; and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by rivers of waters, in a straight way wherein they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my first-born.



10 Hear the word of Jehovah, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off; and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as shepherd doth his flock.



11 For Jehovah hath ransomed Jacob, and redeemed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.



12 And they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow unto the goodness of Jehovah, to the grain, and to the new wine, and to the oil, and to the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.



13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old together; for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.



14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith Jehovah.



--------------



And then Ezekiel (does it seem like the Old Testament prophets were REALLY trying to drive hom a point about the final regathering of Israel?)



11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Whereas I have removed them far off among the nations, and whereas I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them a sanctuary for a little while in the countries where they are come.



17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.



18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.



19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;



20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.



21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord Jehovah.



And more from Ezekiel in Chapter 20:40-42



40 For in my holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them, serve me in the land: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the first-fruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.



41 As a sweet savor will I accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you in the sight of the nations.



42 And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country which I sware to give unto your fathers.



And there is more if anyone cares to follow it along. I think some of these passages get overlooked because it is assumed that Israel's rebirth as a nation was the end of the story, but these Old Testament prophecies foretell a COMPLETE regathering and describe the conditions of the Millenial Kingdom - not just the partial regathering in unbelief that has thus far occurred. In other words, these are not fulfilled to completion:



Ezekiel 36: 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye went.



23 And I will sanctify my great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, saith the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.



24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.



25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.



26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.



27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.



28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.



29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the grain, and will multiply it, and lay no famine upon you.



30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye may receive no more the reproach of famine among the nations.



31 Then shall ye remember your evil ways, and your doings that were not good; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.............................benny

Failure to distinguist between the "elect" of the believing remnant part of national Israel at the time of the end and the "elect" of the church is a major flaw of replacement theology thinking

This view will never return a correct rendering of the prophetic scriptures and it holds the seeds of extreme potential deception by those who follow it

Dedicated To Nightmare: Who Are The Elect ?
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...c=23310&hl=

There is a "replacement theology" that permeates those that embrace the Pri-trib view. Just because the Lord Deals with the Jewish nation in the final seven under the new covenant doesn't mean this is an exclusive situation, and the church is Gone.

[/indent]It is quite apparent that the Gospel will be preached to ALL NAtions in the final Seven, to finish the great commission.[indent]

Ezekiel 38 Proves this. The Lord puts hooks in the Jaws of this army, and brings them against the mountains of Israel "so the Heathen may know HIm." is He addressing the Jews Here? If I said Yes, then I would be guilty of establishing a "replacement theology," One which replaces National Israel, with "whosoever". I don't deny the Lord Is dealing with His people in the final seven year period, but salvation Is available to all through this period of time. I don't see anywhere that believers in the tribulation period are exlusively National Israel.

Joshleet,where in Ezekial does it state that the Ezekial battle hapopens during the trib?
Second question,...You you believe this will result in a nuclear war?
The tribulation period is the time of Jacobs trouble, not the Brides trouble.
But yes, there are those gentiles that did not make the pre-trib rapture, that can still make heaven, but the cost! Saved” After the Rapture; But, Oh, the Cost!
by Joseph Chambers

This is a dangerous subject.

Hard people will hate me for telling others that people can be saved after the Rapture of the espoused bride. Yet, the truth of Holy Scripture leaves no doubt. I think that we can prove this truth beyond question of reasonable minds.

But, I must warn you that being saved after the Rapture comes with incredible cost.

There is clear evidence that almost every soul (maybe all) that wash themselves in the blood of Jesus after He catches away the overcoming saints will die a horrible death of martyrdom. If you think that suicide murderers are vicious and that death on the top floors of the world trade center, where over 1,700 persons were reduced to bits of pieces or ashes, was horrible; the death of Tribulation saints will be many times worse.

Satan and his army of spirits will invade this world.

The mother of harlots and her religious helpers from the Charismatic Joel’s Army, Jesuit priests, Moslem terrorists, plus others will all be united to demand submission to the new religion and her mark. That mark is what the Bible calls the “Mark of the Beast.”

What is even more breathtaking is the fact that nobody that is saved after the Rapture can have the honor of being in the Bride of Christ.

The Bride of Christ is the highest honor available to the saints. If everyone saved is a part of the Bride, then the whole idea of rewards falls on its face.

When James and John’s mother asked Jesus for her sons to sit on His right hand and His left hand, His answer was revealing. He said, “And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.” “And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.” (Matthew 20:21, 23).

Apostle Paul dealt with this subject when speaking of carnal members in the Corinthian church that never matured into sainthood, but remained babes in Christ. He said of these spiritual babes,

“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (Greek Interlinear: trough).” (I Corinthians 3:11-15).

It would require incredible imagination to see these carnal babes sitting upon thrones of power in the eternal brideship of the Lord Jesus. In fact, it will not happen.


Saved After The Rapture

All of my Christian life, I have heard ministers preach that no one could be saved after the Rapture. At the same time, I have studied the Bible and especially the Book of Revelation and seen the inconsistency of this mindset.

Over and over there is this picture of people being slain for the Word of God, pursued by Satan’s cohorts or crying out for their blood to be avenged on Satan clearly occurring after the Rapture. The Bible is a perfect whole and no truth is ever truly questionable when you rightly divide the Word of God. I think this idea began from the false teaching of “Jesus Only” and/or “Latter Rain” doctrines. The idea that the outpouring of the Holy Ghost over the last one hundred years was the “Latter Rain” outpouring appears to be the source.

Actually, the “Latter Rain” does not begin until Israel is saved at the end of the seven years and will continue through the Millennium. We are actually at the closing of the “Former Rain,” which is clearly called “Moderate Rain.”

The tribulation period is a bridge between the Early and the Latter Rain. Apostle Peter plainly stated that the Latter Rain will be “upon all flesh” (Acts 2:17), not just the moderate work of the Holy Ghost presently affecting the world.

The Glorious Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Both from the dead and the living, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the grand event for the espoused bride of our Lord Jesus Christ. There will be millions of lukewarm, indifferent, and carnal people that will miss this glorious moment.

The church is full of worldly, careless people professing Jesus Christ, but possessing almost nothing of spiritual life and Christ-centered surrender. They live for the flesh, they are enemies of the cross because Jesus is not allowed to be the Lord of their lives. There has been such a bombardment of cheap preaching, which promises so much for so little that a sermon like this serves to anger and disturb this careless crowd. I dare not fail in telling you the truth.

Listen to the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He appears to be screaming out these words of warning. “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” (Luke 21:33-36).

There is no question to a reasonable reader of what Jesus was discussing. Luke chapter 21 deals with the Lord’s great message of the end time events and the Great Tribulation time of His earthly wrath against wickedness.

We can escape that wrath and He instructs us how to escape.

The only way He warns us is if we are constantly vigilant in our consecration, that we allow nothing, not even the normal cares of life, to limit our Spirit-filled living. He warns us of being “overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness.” He is not talking to sinners, but He is talking to the believers. His Olivet discourse is to the people of His kingdom, both Jews and the church. Those words indicate in order as He presented them, “gluttoning on the world and intoxicated with the world.” It is a perfect picture of the majority of today’s church.

Most churches do not have a Sunday night or Wednesday night service because it is too embarrassing to try. But, the problem is not the absence of these services, but it is the matter of the heart. The world’s interest and even legitimate interests have often robbed the hearts of the people. The real problem is that we claim to be His espoused bride, while our courtship is with money, things, gourmet meals, pleasures, hobbies, vacations, and a multitude of other desires.

This is exactly what Jesus was saying in the breathtaking words I just printed for you.

If we are “overcharged” with the cares of the world, we are going to miss the Rapture and be left for “that day” as Jesus called the coming years of wrath.


Espoused To One Husband

The Bride of Jesus Christ is “espoused to one husband” and one husband alone. Under no other circumstances will you be raptured with the Bride and miss the horrible years of wrath.

Apostle Paul said this to the church at Corinth.

“For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (II Corinthians 11:2-3).

Every person that is raptured before the Tribulation will be a Biblical virgin and full of the oil of the Spirit. Their lamps will be burning brightly as presented in the Words of Jesus Christ. He spoke of ten virgins, of which five were wise and were raptured, while the other five were foolish (careless) and were left behind.

“Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. The foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” (Matthew 25:1-13).

This is an incredible picture of the coming Rapture and shows most clearly what is required to be a part of His Bride.

All ten virgins had vessels that had previously held oil. Once they all had oil to be consumed, but the fire had gone out of the five foolish virgins’ vessels.

They were all expecting to go, but five of them suddenly realized the misery of being left.

The greatest wailing and screaming of all human history will occur immediately after the Rapture among the Bible-believing world.

Please note what the Lord said, “I know you not.” That does not mean that He did not know who they were and their names. He knows the name of every living person and even the stars are known and named by Him.

The words “I know” were words of inspection.


A Multitude of Martyred Saints

Immediately after the Rapture of the espoused Bride, repentant men and women will begin to die for their newfound faith and saintliness. The fifth seal of Revelation six reveals the holocaust that envelops anyone representing fundamental Christianity. The seven-sealed book in the Father’s hand is the entire transaction of the total seven years. The fifth seal is a picture of what the Antichrist kingdom will plan and execute against the remnant of Biblical Christianity.

The first thing the devil and his entire evil kingdom will do after the raptured saints have escaped his reach is to go after every expression of the true but unprepared church. Unsaved young people and lukewarm church members will immediately be attacked and made to deny Christianity or die. A multitude will realize their fate and missed privilege, but will now find an altar and wash their souls in the blood of the Lamb. Many will do it at the same moment that they are being killed for refusing to deny the faith they have learned.

Look at what we see in that fifth seal, “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” (Revelation 6:9-11).

Remember, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture has occurred only a short time prior to this scene.

The overcomers were raptured, but a large company of those that had allowed the oil to be depleted or had been overcharged with the cares of this life or had courted worldly goods have paid the ultimate price for their failure. They have now been killed because they would not recant. They are told to wait under the altar in Heaven until their brethren have paid the same price of martyrdom.

In what appears to be near the middle of the seven years, all the martyrs up to that time will be raptured up to the throne of God, where they will receive their reward. Look at this extremely clear picture of that event.

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:9-17).

This passage leaves no question that a multitude will be saved after the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

They are from “nations and kindreds, and people and tongues.”

They are not mainly Jews being saved, but Gentiles being saved.

While there will be Jews saved during the seven years, the majority will be saved after Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist in Megiddo. Apostle Paul prophesied of this in his letter to the Romans, saying, “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.” (Romans 11:26).

The Tribulation is going to be a harvest time out of the nations of the earth. Isaiah prophesied of this incredible truth. “…for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9).

God’s judgment during this period will be so incredible that every inhabitant of this earth will recognize this action as the acts of the true God and creator of this earth and His Son, the Lamb of God. If any living person has the capacity to repent and turn to God, they will be received and converted and then be hated and martyred for the glory of God. Right down to the end of the years of God’s wrath, souls will repent and gain the victory over the Beast.

John the Revelator wrote at the very last hour as the Millennium is being announced of those who had been converted. “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4).

An Entire Company of Souls Beyond Hope

It’s terribly important for every person reading this article to know that there will be a multitude that cannot be saved when the Pre-Tribulation Rapture has occurred.

Anyone that would dare to say, “I’m going to wait until after the Rapture to be saved” probably has gone beyond repentance. That attitude is exactly the kind of action, which suggests someone that meets Apostle Paul’s description of the hopeless. Look at his words.

He first described the Antichrist and then what happens after he is revealed. “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (II Thessalonians 2:9-12).

The religious world is full of people who love almost any doctrine over the literal truth of God’s Word. They want their ears tickled, so they can be a “Christian” and still do as they please. We have a generation of religious people that are Biblically apostate.

Their systems of doctrines are more precious than the beautiful and pure Word of God.

They cannot hear because their system has built a wall around their minds.

There are many religious people too busy to get on their knees in front of the Word of God. They have never taken time to fall in love with the “truth.”

The above Scripture says that anyone that rejects the “love of truth” will be hopelessly deluded and lost to the Antichrist world.

It is not truth that saves the soul. It is the “love of truth” that saves.

The false anointing that has gripped the church world is the result of experience and feeling that has pre-empted the “love of truth.” Men and women would rather have an emotional picnic than a feast of truth. Such people will be in trouble on that day. The Charismatic world has spawned a generation of religious people that could care less about doctrines, just sing them a song and give them a shout. If you can slay the seekers, it does not matter whether you can preach. This is Satan’s lie to cause a multitude to be rejected of the Lord. The Antichrist will have a ready following from these sad souls.

Immediately, in the opening of the seven-sealed book, there is evidence of people that are beyond repentance.

They pray to the mountains instead of the Father because they know this judgment action is His wrath against wickedness. The truth says, “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” (Revelation 6:15-16).

Instead of repenting, they are seeking death.

Four times in Revelation the Scripture states, “and they repented not…” or an equivalent statement.

First, the Scripture stated, “And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.” (Revelation 9:20-21).

This was speaking of the general population.

Second, he speaks of the Antichrist kingdom itself, “And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.” (Revelation 16:9).

Then, he stated, “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain. And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.” (Revelation 16:10-11).

Can you imagine a day so wicked that men lose the ability to repent?


Conclusion

I am grateful to the Creator that Scripture reveals His mercy even in judgment. The only crowd that cannot find mercy are those that themselves choose to turn from truth to love and embrace error. These are not sheep without a shepherd or people who never heard the truth, but arrogant and haughty individuals that reject the plain truth of the Word of God.

The multitudes that had little truth or maybe none will now see the Biblical God in a way that shows His awesome glory and breathtaking holiness. Millions will repent and willingly die for their newfound faith. Do not be so hard as to think that our God will ever reject one soul that turns to Him with all their heart ready to pay the full price for His love and mercy.
......................................................benny

What is the "believing remnant part of national Israel at the time of the end?" What do they believe?

Patrick

www.biblefcts.net

What is the "believing remnant part of national Israel at the time of the end?" What do they believe?

Patrick

www.biblefacts.net

In their Messiah and King Jesus Christ

A remnant part of ethnic national Israel will turn to the Lord and accept Him as their Messiah during the tribulation period

This turning will begin with the 144,000 Israelites from each tribe

These will then take the gospel first to Israel and then to the nations during the tribulation period

Both the prophets of Israel of the O.T. and the Lord in His discourse in the N.T. tell of this truth

Romans 11:24
After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Anyone from then to know that believes *still* is elect

1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,..."

All of us who believe in the Testimony given by the SAINTS of the witness of Jesus Christ; are elect
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Anyone who believes there is a separation of Jew and Greek etc..; is not listening to the Bible/Saints and thus is not an elect...Now do you understand why the day's MUST be cut short?

I can establish that ezekiel 38 occurs in the 70th week. To do so, I need to ask you a question... When Does the Sixth seal occur?

I must say that JS is correct on this issue

All of the unfulfilled portion of the visions of the Bible prophets is reserved for the 70th week decreed for national Israel

Ezekiel's vision has two psrts

The invasion of Israel at midweek

And the subsequent battle of Armageddon

His vision does not cover a describtion of the 42 month rule of the beast and his followers

The vision's time lapse is breached between the invasion and Armageddon

Zechariah 14 has the same view and breach .... the invasion ... and then the battle of Armageddon

You are 100% Right on. And for those who who embrace the Pre-trib view have to run the other direction screaming "replacement theology", when in reality, it is them that are trying to establish a replacement theology themselves. The Lord does Deal with National Israel, and it is the focal point of events, but it is under the new Covenant when events occur. The very reason certian events occur is because of this.

[/indent]The Lord puts "hooks in the jaws of an invading army, and brings them down on His own Land....Why? What have they Done to bring on such action? The Lord tells us why the Ezekiel 38 event occurs. He is very Clear on it,

QUOTE

Ez. 38:16 ....I will bring thee against my Land, that the HEATHEN MAY KNOW ME, WHEN I SHALL BE SANCTIFIED IN THEE O Gog, before their eyes.

Now, considering Israel, was STILL Israel, and Heathen were Still Heathen, when this was penned, who is the Lord talking about Here?? How Does the Heathen, (or Israel for that matter) KNow God???? There is only one way, Through our Lord Jesus Christ. The very reason why this war occurs is because the Jews have restarted Sacrifices in The temple again. Think about what the Islamic world will think and do, when this happens. However, it is the Lord behind this action, because He puts "hooks" in their Jaws. Amos 5:20 reveals God's Heart attitude about when the sacrifices will be restarted Just prior to the day of the Lord. This army comes against the mountians of Israel, to stop the sacrifices. Daniel 11:27-31 also covers this event. Another "doctrine" that "blows out of the water" the Supposed Seven year "tribulation" period theory, that is to say that this is All of Gods Judgement and wrath, is ones proper understanding of What exactly the final seven year period is for. It is so the "heathen may know Him. It is the Messiah who will confirm His covenant, the new covenant with many for one week, and in the "midst of the week, he is stopping the sacrifices, because this is nothing but a total slap in the face of God, and a total rejection of What Christ completed on the cross. Yup! the Lord's focus will be On Israel. But not for the reasons Most think.[indent]

I find it amazing How most "Christians" eagerly await the rebuilding of the Temple. They don't have a clue what this event will bring on.

They believe in Christ as the Messiah from God or they don't belong to God. God doesn't have anything but contempt for a nation of antichrists.

1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

The scriptures clearly tell us the dead saints are in Heaven, those that have died in Christ and those of Old Teestament faith. For such the tribulation Martyrs are also seen in Heaven. Absent in the body is to be present with Christ.

Matthew 27:52-3
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53:And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Those who are worthy to obtain the resurrection from the dead at Christs return are clearly written in the palm of God's hand to be brought back to life, just as Christ was brought back to life.
Never to die again.
So in that sense they are in heaven because their resurrection from the dead can not be annulled.
Since there is no conscientiousness in death they will just wake up in the resurrection. In a moment in a flash of lightning they will be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

4 "...These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

If they were the firstfruits, doesn't that mean they were redeemed during the early years of the Church that Christ established in the first century AD?

Patrick
www.biblefacts.net

"These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. If they were the firstfruits, doesn't that mean they were redeemed during the early years of the Church that Christ established in the first century AD?"

>No

>These of the 144.000 members of the nation of Israel have yet to appear on the earth and will just at the beginning of the tribulation period

>They will be the first converts on the earth to the Lord [the first mortals to be saved in the tribulation period]

>Saved and sealed for service through out the period

>Their presence will emerge just after today's Body of Christ of both the living and the dead are immortalized by the Lord's "harpazo" action

>The Lord's two prophets will also be Israelites and obviously believers

>These will be the first of national Israel to turn to the Lord

>There will be others of the nation who will believe and specifically those who flee Judea [Israel] from the invasion of the beast

Good point, This was done at Passover, it foreshadows the resurrection of the souls when Jesus fulfills the fall feasts, Trumpets and atonement.

Jesus fulfills in heaven what He fulfilled on earth. When this has happened then the resurrected saints will be {{seen}} by many.

These of the 144.000 members of the nation of Israel have yet to appear on the earth and will just at the beginning of the tribulation period.

Exactly "After 2 {{days}} He will revive us and on the 3rd {{day}} raise us....

And Jesus returns with the saints...

Selah's answer here is Biblical and perfectly sound. It is the only answer to the pre-tribbers who insist that there are two elects, Israel and the church. There is no seperation of Messiah's people. Either you are redeemed by the blood or you are not. No elect will be going to hell.

Eli,..are you still pick and choosing in desperation to fit in a false doctrine?

I believe the elect in Matthew 24 is a reference to the Jewish remnant who will come to faith in the Messiahship of Jesus during the tribulation period. Commentators generally recognize that " elect" " may refer to Israel, to the Church, or to both." [11] The context is the determinative factor in any attempt to discover which nuance the author intended. The contextual usage of Matthew supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage. " Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom (24:14), the holy place (24:15), the Sabbath (24:20), and the Messiah (24:23-24) indicate that Israel as a nation is in view," [12] observes Dr. Stanley Toussaint. Dr. Renald Showers provides a more focused explanation:


The elect are the faithful, believing Israelite remnant in contrast with the unbelieving sinners within the nation. In Isaiah 65:7-16 God drew a contrast between these two groups and their destinies. In verse 9 He called the believing remnant " mine Elect," and in verses 17-25 He indicated that in the future Millennium His elect remnant of the nation will be blessed greatly on the earth.[13]


Since the term " elect" is used three times in Matthew 24 (verses 22, 24, 31; see also Mark 13:20, 22, 27), it is most likely that the author uses it to refer to the same entity all three times. Dr. McAvoy says, " The rule of context precludes understanding ' elect' in 24:22, 24 as referring to Israel and then nine verses later as referring to the church. Without some indication of transition from one intended meaning to another ' elect' in 24:21 must mean the same as it does in 24:22, 24." [14]

........................................................benny

"The context is the determinative factor"

Always

The Lord's discourse in Matthew 24, mark 13, and Luke 21 speaks of national Israel surrounded by the other nations of the world

The church is not in this context at all

For example, Judah and Jerusalem are literal places ..... neither is the home of the church

All of His discourse is about the time of the end and Israel's position..... all of it

He was asked about the time of the end .... and this time did not take place in the first century .... none of it

He does tell His followers what would happen to them in their day, but he makes the distinction by saying .... but before all of these things .........

He then proceeds with describing the 70th week decreed for national Israel

This time frame is still pending fulfillment

Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Yeah!...I like that verse too!

....................................................benny

It would seem that from this verse the elects are scattered.........That means it will be all kinds of people that will not bow to baal......It wont be many but they will be of all different colors and races,,,,,,,and they will stand against satan/antichrist what will you be doing??????