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benny balerio
Revelation 20:4

(1) Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. (2) And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded (3) because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, (4) and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, (5) and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and (6) they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

1. Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them = begins another vision report by John. This vision concerns other events connected with this one thousand-year period alluded to in connection with the imprisonment of the dragon. John indicates that he saw thrones, plural. The thrones are occupied when John sees them. Those seated are given judgment – the ability and right to judge.

The identity of these throne-sitters is not explicitly indicated. In the context of the millennial reign of Christ, these individuals must be the faithful saints of the ages. Otherwise, there is no mention of the saints in general connected with the 1000-year reign of Christ at this point in the Revelation. However, unlike the beheaded martyrs to follow, these individuals are already seated on the thrones when John sees them. They have already received the right to render judgments. Therefore, their resurrection must have preceded John’s sighting of them. This accords with Revelation 11:18, which indicated the rewarding of the saints preceded the final wrath of God through the bowl judgments. Since the millennial reign follows the bowl judgments, the saints will have been judged already and anticipating the reign of Christ to begin.

2. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded = begins a description of a second group of individuals connected with the 1000-year reign of Christ. While many commentators generalize this group into the whole of saints throughout the ages, there is no textual basis for this conclusion. John specifically indicates that this group was beheaded. Pelikizein meaning "to behead with an axe" is very specific. Some try to make Revelation 6:9, which refers to martyrs and Revelation 20:4 refer to the same group. However, this again is a case of over generalizing the similarities to the neglect of the differences.

For John to refer to all believers as martyrs would indicates a gross abuse of both language and truth. To behead with an axe limits the application of Revelation 20:4 to those so killed. However, Revelation 6:9 uses a term that could describe death resulting from many different possibilities. This simply is not the case in Revelation 20:4. There are two groups described in Revelation 20:4—the throne-sitters and the beheaded faithful.

3. Because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God = gives a positive explanation for why this group of individuals was killed. They continued to witness to the fact that Jesus is Lord. The word of God refers to God’s commands. These "Christians" did not deny the Lord, but remained faithful to the word of God.

4. And those who had not worshiped the beast or his image = continues the description of the beheaded martyrs. However, the author turns to some negative reasons for their death. The conjunction and in Greek can be translated even giving the meaning in addition to. Thus, John is not introducing a third group of individuals resurrected at this point. Rather, John continues to describe the beheaded martyrs by giving additional reasons for their death. In their obedience to God, they naturally offended the beast. To remain faithful to Jesus Christ automatically put one in opposition to the beast.

The beheaded faithful refused to worship the beast or his image, which is the expressed requirement to live on the earth during the reign of the dragon. The gravity of one’s refusal to worship the beast can be seen in the consequence—beheading. Scripture does not indicate why decapitation is the preferred method of capital punishment for the beast. Down through the history of the church, several methods have proved favorites: (1) burning alive; (2) crucifixion; (3) exposure to wild animals; (4) to be shot; (5) starvation; and (6) decapitation to name a few. Decapitation proves to be the least labor intensive. All one needs is a sharp axe.

5. And had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand = continues the descriptive reason why the beheaded lost their lives during the reign of the dragon. Commitment to Christ naturally forestalls the acceptance of a brand of allegiance to the beast. The outcome is naturally death.

The fact that the beheaded faithful faced the persecution of the beast and the false prophets clearly limits the historical referent. The reign of the beast is limited to three and a half years just prior to the Lord’s parousia. Therefore, the beheaded saints cannot refer to believers throughout the ages. They must be limited to the great persecution at the hands of Satan/Antichrist/beast during the second half of Daniel’s Seventieth Week. Equally, they must be limited to believers following the Rapture of the saints, else they would have been taken during the Rapture. Therefore, these people died after the Rapture, but before Armageddon.

This fosters a question: will anyone be saved after the Rapture? Obviously, there must be people saved after the Rapture. Matthew 25:31ff indicates that there will be a sheep and goat judgment, just prior to the Kingdom. The only way there can be "sheep" is that salvation occurred after the Rapture.

6. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years = indicates the point of this vision. The beheaded came to life. Zan is the Greek verb used here, which carries the meaning to live. In context, this word can only mean, "to raise from the dead, or resurrection." It refers to the resurrection of Jesus in Revelation 2:8. It has this sense in Acts 9:41 and Matthew 9:18. In relationship to the dead, it always refers to a physical restoration of life.

The amillennialists, in a never-ending quest to subvert the literal plain sense of Scripture, argue that a spiritual resurrection is intended here. That is, the saints begin their reign with Christ at salvation in a Pauline sense (Eph 2:6, Col 3:1). However, this conclusion is directly contradicted by the context that follows. These folks are indicated to reign with Christ for a thousand years. Many make the false assumption that Psalms 90:4 repeated in 2 Peter 3:8 that "one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day" is grounds to spiritualize Revelation 20:4. This is obviously a figure of speech. It does not say that one day is a thousand years. Secondly, this reference to time is from God’s perspective, not man’s.

There is nothing in Revelation 20:4 that supports a figurative interpretation. To say that the reign of the believer is spiritual, one must also say that Satan is presently bound and locked away, which is laughably absurd. Only the naive or theologically biased would argue that Satan has been bound for the last 2000 years. The apostle Paul states that unbelievers are blinded (deceived) continually concerning the gospel (2 Cor 4:4). Acts 5:3 explicitly states that Satan inspired Ananias to lie to the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 20:5

(1) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. (2) This is the first resurrection.

1. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed = contrasts with the martyrs resurrected in Revelation 20:4. If in fact, only one group of believers is identified in Revelation 20:4, then one must conclude that only martyrs are resurrected. Revelation 3:18 declares that overcoming believers will sit with Christ on his throne. Therefore, Revelation 20:4 must refer to at least two groups. Whom then, does "the rest of the dead" refer to?

The premillennialists would argue that "the rest of the dead" refers to unbelievers. The saints of the ages who died before the sixth seal are resurrected between seals six and seven and those beheaded after the Rapture are resurrected near/on the beginning of the 1000-year period. The general resurrection of the wicked occurs at the end of the 1000-year kingdom. The amillennialists must argue that "the rest of the dead" refers to the wicked and perhaps some righteous. However, this causes a major problem. If "come to life" is spiritual in Revelation 20:4, then it must be spiritual in Revelation 20:5. Problem: how do the wicked come to life in a spiritual sense? If "come to life" is spiritual in Revelation 20:4, how can the same verb refer to physical life in Revelation 20:5 without any textual clues to help the reader understand this change? Such "doings" are unnatural to the text!

2. This is the first resurrection = clarifies the significance of the resurrection of the beheaded faithful. Their resurrection is a part of a larger event that can correctly be described as "the first resurrection." Since only the beheaded dead are described as resurrected in Revelation 20:4, this must be a part of a greater whole. For the resurrection will include all the saints of all the ages. The only biblical solution is to recognize the explanation of the apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 states,

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Paul clearly delineates several groupings, all of which constitute "the first resurrection." Christ is described as the first fruits. Metaphorically, if Christ is the first fruits, then the rest of the harvest follows later. Paul is using the figure of speech taken from agriculture. Any farmer knows that a crop does not ripen all at once. Usually, a small portion ripen first, then the largest portion ripens and lastly a small portion ripens late. In keeping with Paul’s figure of speech, whether one is taken as the first fruits, the general harvest or the last of the harvest, all fruit would be considered part of the harvest. There is one harvest regardless of when the fruit is picked.

The next gathering of ripened fruit (resurrection of the dead) will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia). The apostle Paul describes it as a "snatching away" of the righteous living and dead. Paul indicates that this event will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia) (1 Thess 4:16). Revelation 20:4 indicates a final group (the late harvest) will finish the harvest begun with the resurrection of Jesus. This harvest from Christ to the beheaded dead constitutes "the first resurrection."

Revelation 20:6

(1) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; (2) over these the second death has no power, (3) but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

1. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection = is the fifth of seven beatitudes in the Revelation. The beatitude announces the importance of having a part in "the first resurrection." All of those who have a part in it are blessed and holy. This clearly limits "the first resurrection" to the righteous. Even if the Revelation does not label a resurrection after the 1000 years as "the second resurrection," this beatitude makes such a conclusion an absolute necessity. There must be a resurrection in which those who have a part are devoid of holiness.

2. Over these the second death has no power (authority) = offers another reason those who have a part in the first resurrection are blessed. The second death has no authority. The phrase second death occurs in the Revelation four times. Revelation 20:14 defines the second death as the lake of fire or eternal punishment. All of those who partake in the first resurrection have no fear of eternal punishment. This can only mean that no one who partakes in the first resurrection is unholy or is damnable. This confirms that the first resurrection will only involve the righteous.

This is not the case for the general resurrection that comes at the end of the 1000-year kingdom. This resurrection will involve both the wicked and those righteous ones who died during the 1000-year kingdom. The second death will have authority during this resurrection to claim those who belong to it. Physical death separates man from any opportunity to experience God’s presence. The second death will do it again, but for eternity.

3. But they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years = is a powerful contrast. Instead of separation from the presence of God (the second death) those who have a part in the first resurrection will serve as priests of God and of Christ. This is just the opposite of the second death. Not only will the resurrected be in God’s presence they will literally work for Him as priests.

God has always had a priestly representative on the earth. The first priest we meet in the Scriptures is Melchizedek (Gen 14:18-20). In what is truly one of the great mysteries of Scripture, Melchizedek appears and disappears without a beginning or an end. Subsequently, Israel becomes "a kingdom of priests." The priestly function was to represent man before God. Through sacrificial mediation, the priest communicated to God on behalf of man. In what sense then will the resurrected faithful serve as priests to God and Christ? During the millennial kingdom, the saints will reign with Christ. Their job description, if you will, will involve their representation of Christ to the millennial constituents and visa versa.

The fact that the reign of the resurrected is limited to 1000 years signals an important detail. This reign cannot involve a spiritual reign in heaven. The Lord’s promise to the overcomers in Revelation 2:26-27 makes no sense if a spiritual reign is the goal. There is no appreciable effect on the nations, if the saints are reigning in heaven in the sense intended in Revelation 2:26-27. To use 1000 years to describe the present reign of the saints (now 2000 years for some and may be less than six months for those killed just prior to the Lord’s return) renders the whole concept nonsensical. Revelation 5:10 explicitly states that those purchased by the blood of Christ "will reign upon the earth."

..................................................benny cool.gif
Stephen
Good post Benny

Well stated and very clear on what the scriptures teach
Joshleet
I see you have established a very clear order of events in revelation. We witness the 1260 day reign of the false Messiah. (In chtrs, 11, 12, 13), the vials of the wrath of God (chtrs 14, 15, 16) Followed by the millineil reign. Why then, does one try to take what is described Before the 42 month reign of the false Messiah (the seals and first six trumpets, In ch. 6-9) and claim this is only a Foreshadowing or a preview of Yet future events? How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???
[/indent]AS I STATED BEFORE, THERE IS A REASON WHY EVENTS ARE ORDERED AS THEY ARE. The seals and first six trumpets do occur Prior to the false messiah's reign. On another Post you stated that the 42 month reign is being described three different ways, this is correct, because the Lord wants us to see the time period from three different perspectives.
The problem with the more commonly held view of end time events, LEAVES NO ROOM, FOR ANYTHING BAD TO OCCUR PRIOR TO THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, when in reality, one witnesses the seals, and the first six trumpets occuring prior to his reign. [indent]
We witness things getting progressively worse prior to the reign of the false messiah. half of humanity is already "cut off" prior to HIs reign. It is these events, the "birthpains" (seals and trumpets) that set the stage for the world to accept the false messiah as the true. This is why Jesus gave us the warning, "but the end is not yet". The reason Satan is going to be able to pull this off, is no one has heeded the warning Jesus gave. They have accepted events Prior to the reign of the false Messiah, AS THE END. Ask those in the sixth seal who hide from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne. They are accepting an event that appears to be the day of the Lord, but isn't.
benny balerio
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 22 2008, 10:13 AM) *
I see you have established a very clear order of events in revelation. We witness the 1260 day reign of the false Messiah. (In chtrs, 11, 12, 13), the vials of the wrath of God (chtrs 14, 15, 16) Followed by the millineil reign. Why then, does one try to take what is described Before the 42 month reign of the false Messiah (the seals and first six trumpets, In ch. 6-9) and claim this is only a Foreshadowing or a preview of Yet future events? How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???
[/indent]AS I STATED BEFORE, THERE IS A REASON WHY EVENTS ARE ORDERED AS THEY ARE. The seals and first six trumpets do occur Prior to the false messiah's reign. On another Post you stated that the 42 month reign is being described three different ways, this is correct, because the Lord wants us to see the time period from three different perspectives.
The problem with the more commonly held view of end time events, LEAVES NO ROOM, FOR ANYTHING BAD TO OCCUR PRIOR TO THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, when in reality, one witnesses the seals, and the first six trumpets occuring prior to his reign. [indent]
We witness things getting progressively worse prior to the reign of the false messiah. half of humanity is already "cut off" prior to HIs reign. It is these events, the "birthpains" (seals and trumpets) that set the stage for the world to accept the false messiah as the true. This is why Jesus gave us the warning, "but the end is not yet". The reason Satan is going to be able to pull this off, is no one has heeded the warning Jesus gave. They have accepted events Prior to the reign of the false Messiah, AS THE END. Ask those in the sixth seal who hide from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne. They are accepting an event that appears to be the day of the Lord, but isn't.

You quote:How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???

Benny reply:
Only those who are wise and have the gift of discernment.
Ask for this gift, and you shall see too!
..................................................benny cool.gif
Joshleet
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 22 2008, 10:21 AM) *
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 22 2008, 10:13 AM) *
I see you have established a very clear order of events in revelation. We witness the 1260 day reign of the false Messiah. (In chtrs, 11, 12, 13), the vials of the wrath of God (chtrs 14, 15, 16) Followed by the millineil reign. Why then, does one try to take what is described Before the 42 month reign of the false Messiah (the seals and first six trumpets, In ch. 6-9) and claim this is only a Foreshadowing or a preview of Yet future events? How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???
[/indent]AS I STATED BEFORE, THERE IS A REASON WHY EVENTS ARE ORDERED AS THEY ARE. The seals and first six trumpets do occur Prior to the false messiah's reign. On another Post you stated that the 42 month reign is being described three different ways, this is correct, because the Lord wants us to see the time period from three different perspectives.
The problem with the more commonly held view of end time events, LEAVES NO ROOM, FOR ANYTHING BAD TO OCCUR PRIOR TO THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, when in reality, one witnesses the seals, and the first six trumpets occuring prior to his reign.
We witness things getting progressively worse prior to the reign of the false messiah. half of humanity is already "cut off" prior to HIs reign. It is these events, the "birthpains" (seals and trumpets) that set the stage for the world to accept the false messiah as the true. This is why Jesus gave us the warning, "but the end is not yet". The reason Satan is going to be able to pull this off, is no one has heeded the warning Jesus gave. They have accepted events Prior to the reign of the false Messiah, AS THE END. Ask those in the sixth seal who hide from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne. They are accepting an event that appears to be the day of the Lord, but isn't.

You quote:How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???

Benny reply:
Only those who are wise and have the gift of discernment.
Ask for this gift, and you shall see too!
..................................................benny cool.gif

Fortunately, I do have the Gift of discernmemt. For one to omitt certian events occuring prior to the reign of the false messiah, One has to overlook the following...
1. The progressiveness of events... We witness 1/4 of humantiy effected in the seals, 1/3 in the trumpets, ALL in the vials.
2. One must "overlook" and not Heed the warning Jesus gave, You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet.
3. One must then establish a justifiable reason as to why the false messiah comes to power. Instead of taking God at His word. The convorted and twisted explanation that it will be the rapture that causes His rise to power, is a fairy tale, with no scripural evidence to back it up. It will be the "wars and rumors of wars that set the stage for the false Messiah.
4. One then must establish a starting point for THEIR "Seven year tribulation". MANY lOOK AND WAIT FOR SOME FORM OF 7 YEAR AGREEMENT TO BEGIN THIS TIME FRAME, why? Show me in God's word where JESUS told us to look for this... The disciples asked the Lord a question about what we should look for. Jesus told us what to look for. This agreement you seek is not part of it. This opens a very wide door for deception, for mankind has been making and breaking agreements for Millia.
You see, you will get your 7 year peace agreement, (although it will not have any prophetical significance whatsoever.) This will include the rebuilding of the temple, for it must be present when the sacrifices are stopped in the midst of the week. It will be built long before the false messiah comes on the scene. You will get 3 1/2 years of Peace, followed by 3 1/2 years of War. This is the seventieth week everyone is looking for. This however is not the TRUE ORDER OF EVENTS in the real 70th week.
The true 70th week consists of 3 1/2 years of birthpains, followed by the 42 month reign of the false Messsiah. The first half of the REAL 70th week,(the birthpains) will be accepted and construed as the LAST HALF of a seven year period, all will accept as fulfilled prophecy. Thus the warning from Jesus. What one doesn't realize, For those who teach that the seven year peace agreement starts the supposed 7 year tribulation period, which is then followed, by 3 1/2 years of peace, then 3 1/2 years of war, is unknowinlngly leading Many right into the arms of the False Messiah. [indent] Ones inability to see, or want to see and accept the "birthpain wars" occuring prior to the reign of the false messiah, WILL LEAD MANY into the arms of the false messiah. As I stated before, the Ezekiel 38 war, IS ACCEPTED as the final battle. This however, only "Sets the stage" for the antichrist. It is quite easy to see why satan wants to blind you to this truth. If he can, then you too, will accept him as the returned messiah.
Stephen
"Fortunately, I do have the Gift of discernmemt"

>Impossible based upon your claims

>You present too many errors in your renderings and interpretations

>Decernment comes with paying attention to details

>You currently over look many

> Press on and learn more than you currently know
Joshleet
QUOTE (Stephen @ Oct 22 2008, 11:13 AM) *
"Fortunately, I do have the Gift of discernmemt"

>Impossible based upon your claims

>You present too many errors in your renderings and interpretations

>Decernment comes with paying attention to details

>You currently over look many

> Press on and learn more than you currently know

I find it quite astounding how you continue to attack me, instead of what I establish with God's word. Your inability to reconcile Your view that the Seven years is God's wrath, but the earth is being prepared to face the wrath of God only AFTER THE 42 MONTH REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, which also according to your own words, occurs in the LAST HALF of the 70th week, Reveals your exercise in futility to establish a pre 70th week harvest. Your own words have tripped you up, and proven your doctrine wrong. You are correct that the earth is prepared for the Wrath of God in Rev 14, because up untill now, it hasn't occured. It is you that overlook the many details , that would lead to an understanding to what is actually occuring in the end time. You however, have to do this, and void in your understanding, is the doctrine you embrace leads one right into the arms of the enemy.
Gideon7620
Precisely, the harvest comes in the end of the seasons, never before the end. For such the good servant was told to leave teh wheat with the tares and not pull them out.
NIGHTMARE
QUOTE (Gideon7620 @ Oct 22 2008, 10:38 AM) *
Precisely, the harvest comes in the end of the seasons, never before the end. For such the good servant was told to leave teh wheat with the tares and not pull them out.


Or better translated,,,,the angels where told not to pull/kill the kenites (sons of satan) but they will be dealt with at the return of Christ.......
Gideon7620
QUOTE (NIGHTMARE @ Oct 22 2008, 10:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Gideon7620 @ Oct 22 2008, 10:38 AM) *
Precisely, the harvest comes in the end of the seasons, never before the end. For such the good servant was told to leave teh wheat with the tares and not pull them out.


Or better translated,,,,the angels where told not to pull/kill the kenites (sons of satan) but they will be dealt with at the return of Christ.......


Yes they will be, and the winepress of his wrath awaits them. The angels gather the wheat and tares, while Christ prepares the winepress for the wicked and barn for the siants.
Stephen
G, JS, and NM should all get together, discuss their compatibilities, and form a new religion
benny balerio
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 22 2008, 11:07 AM) *
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 22 2008, 10:21 AM) *
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 22 2008, 10:13 AM) *
I see you have established a very clear order of events in revelation. We witness the 1260 day reign of the false Messiah. (In chtrs, 11, 12, 13), the vials of the wrath of God (chtrs 14, 15, 16) Followed by the millineil reign. Why then, does one try to take what is described Before the 42 month reign of the false Messiah (the seals and first six trumpets, In ch. 6-9) and claim this is only a Foreshadowing or a preview of Yet future events? How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???
[/indent]AS I STATED BEFORE, THERE IS A REASON WHY EVENTS ARE ORDERED AS THEY ARE. The seals and first six trumpets do occur Prior to the false messiah's reign. On another Post you stated that the 42 month reign is being described three different ways, this is correct, because the Lord wants us to see the time period from three different perspectives.
The problem with the more commonly held view of end time events, LEAVES NO ROOM, FOR ANYTHING BAD TO OCCUR PRIOR TO THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, when in reality, one witnesses the seals, and the first six trumpets occuring prior to his reign.
We witness things getting progressively worse prior to the reign of the false messiah. half of humanity is already "cut off" prior to HIs reign. It is these events, the "birthpains" (seals and trumpets) that set the stage for the world to accept the false messiah as the true. This is why Jesus gave us the warning, "but the end is not yet". The reason Satan is going to be able to pull this off, is no one has heeded the warning Jesus gave. They have accepted events Prior to the reign of the false Messiah, AS THE END. Ask those in the sixth seal who hide from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne. They are accepting an event that appears to be the day of the Lord, but isn't.

You quote:How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???

Benny reply:
Only those who are wise and have the gift of discernment.
Ask for this gift, and you shall see too!
..................................................benny cool.gif

Fortunately, I do have the Gift of discernmemt. For one to omitt certian events occuring prior to the reign of the false messiah, One has to overlook the following...
1. The progressiveness of events... We witness 1/4 of humantiy effected in the seals, 1/3 in the trumpets, ALL in the vials.
2. One must "overlook" and not Heed the warning Jesus gave, You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet.
3. One must then establish a justifiable reason as to why the false messiah comes to power. Instead of taking God at His word. The convorted and twisted explanation that it will be the rapture that causes His rise to power, is a fairy tale, with no scripural evidence to back it up. It will be the "wars and rumors of wars that set the stage for the false Messiah.
4. One then must establish a starting point for THEIR "Seven year tribulation". MANY lOOK AND WAIT FOR SOME FORM OF 7 YEAR AGREEMENT TO BEGIN THIS TIME FRAME, why? Show me in God's word where JESUS told us to look for this... The disciples asked the Lord a question about what we should look for. Jesus told us what to look for. This agreement you seek is not part of it. This opens a very wide door for deception, for mankind has been making and breaking agreements for Millia.
You see, you will get your 7 year peace agreement, (although it will not have any prophetical significance whatsoever.) This will include the rebuilding of the temple, for it must be present when the sacrifices are stopped in the midst of the week. It will be built long before the false messiah comes on the scene. You will get 3 1/2 years of Peace, followed by 3 1/2 years of War. This is the seventieth week everyone is looking for. This however is not the TRUE ORDER OF EVENTS in the real 70th week.
The true 70th week consists of 3 1/2 years of birthpains, followed by the 42 month reign of the false Messsiah. The first half of the REAL 70th week,(the birthpains) will be accepted and construed as the LAST HALF of a seven year period, all will accept as fulfilled prophecy. Thus the warning from Jesus. What one doesn't realize, For those who teach that the seven year peace agreement starts the supposed 7 year tribulation period, which is then followed, by 3 1/2 years of peace, then 3 1/2 years of war, is unknowinlngly leading Many right into the arms of the False Messiah. [indent] Ones inability to see, or want to see and accept the "birthpain wars" occuring prior to the reign of the false messiah, WILL LEAD MANY into the arms of the false messiah. As I stated before, the Ezekiel 38 war, IS ACCEPTED as the final battle. This however, only "Sets the stage" for the antichrist. It is quite easy to see why satan wants to blind you to this truth. If he can, then you too, will accept him as the returned messiah.

Well, I hate to bring you the bad news Joshleet.
You do not have the gift of discernment.
If you had this gift there would not be flaws in your theory.
Sorry guy,but the truth is the truth.
You have it as Ezekial 38 were to happen during the tribulation which is incorrect.But you state that the temple will be built,which is a correct statement.
Here is something for you to think about.
Ezekial 38 cannot happen in the first half of the tribulation because if it did the third temple would be destroyed before the anti-christ could sit in the temple at the A.O.D.event.Read Ezekial 38;20 and notice that every wall shall fall down.
Also you state that there will be 3 1/2 years of peace at the beginning of Daniels 70th week,which is an incorrect statementThe two wittnesses will cuse plagues at will,.....cause it not to rain,locusts come out of the bottomless pit,a third of the grass and trees are burned,...a asteroid cause's a third of the rivers and springs to become poisonous.
That is just in the first half.Yes it does start out as peace, but as soon as they cry peace and safety,they shall not escape.
Rev 6 is an overall view of the 7 year tribulation.
But it is true that the birth pains that you referr too, is a correct statement, and the pains will progress in intensity as the tribulation continues.
The 7 bowl judgement happen just before Armegeddon.
After Armageddon, the Angels grab the False prophet and the ac and cast them both into the lake of fire alive.Once everything settles down then a resurrect of all the tribulation martyred comes to pass.So as you can see, there is not a rapyure of the dead and alive as the Lord is descending from heaven at the end of the Tribultion Period.

....................................................benny cool.gif
Gideon7620
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 22 2008, 10:49 AM) *
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 22 2008, 11:07 AM) *
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 22 2008, 10:21 AM) *
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 22 2008, 10:13 AM) *
I see you have established a very clear order of events in revelation. We witness the 1260 day reign of the false Messiah. (In chtrs, 11, 12, 13), the vials of the wrath of God (chtrs 14, 15, 16) Followed by the millineil reign. Why then, does one try to take what is described Before the 42 month reign of the false Messiah (the seals and first six trumpets, In ch. 6-9) and claim this is only a Foreshadowing or a preview of Yet future events? How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???
[/indent]AS I STATED BEFORE, THERE IS A REASON WHY EVENTS ARE ORDERED AS THEY ARE. The seals and first six trumpets do occur Prior to the false messiah's reign. On another Post you stated that the 42 month reign is being described three different ways, this is correct, because the Lord wants us to see the time period from three different perspectives.
The problem with the more commonly held view of end time events, LEAVES NO ROOM, FOR ANYTHING BAD TO OCCUR PRIOR TO THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, when in reality, one witnesses the seals, and the first six trumpets occuring prior to his reign.
We witness things getting progressively worse prior to the reign of the false messiah. half of humanity is already "cut off" prior to HIs reign. It is these events, the "birthpains" (seals and trumpets) that set the stage for the world to accept the false messiah as the true. This is why Jesus gave us the warning, "but the end is not yet". The reason Satan is going to be able to pull this off, is no one has heeded the warning Jesus gave. They have accepted events Prior to the reign of the false Messiah, AS THE END. Ask those in the sixth seal who hide from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne. They are accepting an event that appears to be the day of the Lord, but isn't.

You quote:How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???

Benny reply:
Only those who are wise and have the gift of discernment.
Ask for this gift, and you shall see too!
..................................................benny cool.gif

Fortunately, I do have the Gift of discernmemt. For one to omitt certian events occuring prior to the reign of the false messiah, One has to overlook the following...
1. The progressiveness of events... We witness 1/4 of humantiy effected in the seals, 1/3 in the trumpets, ALL in the vials.
2. One must "overlook" and not Heed the warning Jesus gave, You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet.
3. One must then establish a justifiable reason as to why the false messiah comes to power. Instead of taking God at His word. The convorted and twisted explanation that it will be the rapture that causes His rise to power, is a fairy tale, with no scripural evidence to back it up. It will be the "wars and rumors of wars that set the stage for the false Messiah.
4. One then must establish a starting point for THEIR "Seven year tribulation". MANY lOOK AND WAIT FOR SOME FORM OF 7 YEAR AGREEMENT TO BEGIN THIS TIME FRAME, why? Show me in God's word where JESUS told us to look for this... The disciples asked the Lord a question about what we should look for. Jesus told us what to look for. This agreement you seek is not part of it. This opens a very wide door for deception, for mankind has been making and breaking agreements for Millia.
You see, you will get your 7 year peace agreement, (although it will not have any prophetical significance whatsoever.) This will include the rebuilding of the temple, for it must be present when the sacrifices are stopped in the midst of the week. It will be built long before the false messiah comes on the scene. You will get 3 1/2 years of Peace, followed by 3 1/2 years of War. This is the seventieth week everyone is looking for. This however is not the TRUE ORDER OF EVENTS in the real 70th week.
The true 70th week consists of 3 1/2 years of birthpains, followed by the 42 month reign of the false Messsiah. The first half of the REAL 70th week,(the birthpains) will be accepted and construed as the LAST HALF of a seven year period, all will accept as fulfilled prophecy. Thus the warning from Jesus. What one doesn't realize, For those who teach that the seven year peace agreement starts the supposed 7 year tribulation period, which is then followed, by 3 1/2 years of peace, then 3 1/2 years of war, is unknowinlngly leading Many right into the arms of the False Messiah. [indent] Ones inability to see, or want to see and accept the "birthpain wars" occuring prior to the reign of the false messiah, WILL LEAD MANY into the arms of the false messiah. As I stated before, the Ezekiel 38 war, IS ACCEPTED as the final battle. This however, only "Sets the stage" for the antichrist. It is quite easy to see why satan wants to blind you to this truth. If he can, then you too, will accept him as the returned messiah.

Well, I hate to bring you the bad news Joshleet.
You do not have the gift of discernment.
If you had this gift there would not be flaws in your theory.
Sorry guy,but the truth is the truth.
You have it as Ezekial 38 were to happen during the tribulation which is incorrect.But you state that the temple will be built,which is a correct statement.
Here is something for you to think about.
Ezekial 38 cannot happen in the first half of the tribulation because if it did the third temple would be destroyed before the anti-christ could sit in the temple at the A.O.D.event.Read Ezekial 38;20 and notice that every wall shall fall down.
Also you state that there will be 3 1/2 years of peace at the beginning of Daniels 70th week,which is an incorrect statementThe two wittnesses will cuse plagues at will,.....cause it not to rain,locusts come out of the bottomless pit,a third of the grass and trees are burned,...a asteroid cause's a third of the rivers and springs to become poisonous.
That is just in the first half.Yes it does start out as peace, but as soon as they cry peace and safety,they shall not escape.
Rev 6 is an overall view of the 7 year tribulation.
But it is true that the birth pains that you referr too, is a correct statement, and the pains will progress in intensity as the tribulation continues.
The 7 bowl judgement happen just before Armegeddon.
After Armageddon, the Angels grab the False prophet and the ac and cast them both into the lake of fire alive.Once everything settles down then a resurrect of all the tribulation martyred comes to pass.So as you can see, there is not a rapyure of the dead and alive as the Lord is descending from heaven at the end of the Tribultion Period.

....................................................benny cool.gif


Gideon said,
Daniel tells us the antichrist shall come in peacably in the beginning of the week. The destruction of peace is seen only after the first three and a half years of the last week or tribulation. The last three and a half days or years of the last week, is the Great Tribulation period.
benny balerio
QUOTE (Gideon7620 @ Oct 22 2008, 11:55 AM) *
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 22 2008, 10:49 AM) *
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 22 2008, 11:07 AM) *
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 22 2008, 10:21 AM) *
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 22 2008, 10:13 AM) *
I see you have established a very clear order of events in revelation. We witness the 1260 day reign of the false Messiah. (In chtrs, 11, 12, 13), the vials of the wrath of God (chtrs 14, 15, 16) Followed by the millineil reign. Why then, does one try to take what is described Before the 42 month reign of the false Messiah (the seals and first six trumpets, In ch. 6-9) and claim this is only a Foreshadowing or a preview of Yet future events? How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???
[/indent]AS I STATED BEFORE, THERE IS A REASON WHY EVENTS ARE ORDERED AS THEY ARE. The seals and first six trumpets do occur Prior to the false messiah's reign. On another Post you stated that the 42 month reign is being described three different ways, this is correct, because the Lord wants us to see the time period from three different perspectives.
The problem with the more commonly held view of end time events, LEAVES NO ROOM, FOR ANYTHING BAD TO OCCUR PRIOR TO THE REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH, when in reality, one witnesses the seals, and the first six trumpets occuring prior to his reign.
We witness things getting progressively worse prior to the reign of the false messiah. half of humanity is already "cut off" prior to HIs reign. It is these events, the "birthpains" (seals and trumpets) that set the stage for the world to accept the false messiah as the true. This is why Jesus gave us the warning, "but the end is not yet". The reason Satan is going to be able to pull this off, is no one has heeded the warning Jesus gave. They have accepted events Prior to the reign of the false Messiah, AS THE END. Ask those in the sixth seal who hide from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne. They are accepting an event that appears to be the day of the Lord, but isn't.

You quote:How can one accept the LAST HALF OF THE ORDER OF EVENTS AS CHRONOLOGICAL, BUT NOT THE FIRST???

Benny reply:
Only those who are wise and have the gift of discernment.
Ask for this gift, and you shall see too!
..................................................benny cool.gif

Fortunately, I do have the Gift of discernmemt. For one to omitt certian events occuring prior to the reign of the false messiah, One has to overlook the following...
1. The progressiveness of events... We witness 1/4 of humantiy effected in the seals, 1/3 in the trumpets, ALL in the vials.
2. One must "overlook" and not Heed the warning Jesus gave, You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet.
3. One must then establish a justifiable reason as to why the false messiah comes to power. Instead of taking God at His word. The convorted and twisted explanation that it will be the rapture that causes His rise to power, is a fairy tale, with no scripural evidence to back it up. It will be the "wars and rumors of wars that set the stage for the false Messiah.
4. One then must establish a starting point for THEIR "Seven year tribulation". MANY lOOK AND WAIT FOR SOME FORM OF 7 YEAR AGREEMENT TO BEGIN THIS TIME FRAME, why? Show me in God's word where JESUS told us to look for this... The disciples asked the Lord a question about what we should look for. Jesus told us what to look for. This agreement you seek is not part of it. This opens a very wide door for deception, for mankind has been making and breaking agreements for Millia.
You see, you will get your 7 year peace agreement, (although it will not have any prophetical significance whatsoever.) This will include the rebuilding of the temple, for it must be present when the sacrifices are stopped in the midst of the week. It will be built long before the false messiah comes on the scene. You will get 3 1/2 years of Peace, followed by 3 1/2 years of War. This is the seventieth week everyone is looking for. This however is not the TRUE ORDER OF EVENTS in the real 70th week.
The true 70th week consists of 3 1/2 years of birthpains, followed by the 42 month reign of the false Messsiah. The first half of the REAL 70th week,(the birthpains) will be accepted and construed as the LAST HALF of a seven year period, all will accept as fulfilled prophecy. Thus the warning from Jesus. What one doesn't realize, For those who teach that the seven year peace agreement starts the supposed 7 year tribulation period, which is then followed, by 3 1/2 years of peace, then 3 1/2 years of war, is unknowinlngly leading Many right into the arms of the False Messiah. [indent] Ones inability to see, or want to see and accept the "birthpain wars" occuring prior to the reign of the false messiah, WILL LEAD MANY into the arms of the false messiah. As I stated before, the Ezekiel 38 war, IS ACCEPTED as the final battle. This however, only "Sets the stage" for the antichrist. It is quite easy to see why satan wants to blind you to this truth. If he can, then you too, will accept him as the returned messiah.

Well, I hate to bring you the bad news Joshleet.
You do not have the gift of discernment.
If you had this gift there would not be flaws in your theory.
Sorry guy,but the truth is the truth.
You have it as Ezekial 38 were to happen during the tribulation which is incorrect.But you state that the temple will be built,which is a correct statement.
Here is something for you to think about.
Ezekial 38 cannot happen in the first half of the tribulation because if it did the third temple would be destroyed before the anti-christ could sit in the temple at the A.O.D.event.Read Ezekial 38;20 and notice that every wall shall fall down.
Also you state that there will be 3 1/2 years of peace at the beginning of Daniels 70th week,which is an incorrect statementThe two wittnesses will cuse plagues at will,.....cause it not to rain,locusts come out of the bottomless pit,a third of the grass and trees are burned,...a asteroid cause's a third of the rivers and springs to become poisonous.
That is just in the first half.Yes it does start out as peace, but as soon as they cry peace and safety,they shall not escape.
Rev 6 is an overall view of the 7 year tribulation.
But it is true that the birth pains that you referr too, is a correct statement, and the pains will progress in intensity as the tribulation continues.
The 7 bowl judgement happen just before Armegeddon.
After Armageddon, the Angels grab the False prophet and the ac and cast them both into the lake of fire alive.Once everything settles down then a resurrect of all the tribulation martyred comes to pass.So as you can see, there is not a rapyure of the dead and alive as the Lord is descending from heaven at the end of the Tribultion Period.

....................................................benny cool.gif


Gideon said,
Daniel tells us the antichrist shall come in peacably in the beginning of the week. The destruction of peace is seen only after the first three and a half years of the last week or tribulation. The last three and a half days or years of the last week, is the Great Tribulation period.

Your Logic is childish,
What is the point of even Identifying the first 3 1/2 years if it is all peace and no judgement mingeled with mercy to get people to repent?

6. Israel During the Tribulation
Jerusalem restored
Many people make the mistake of failing to observe Israel in the apocalyptic events of Revelation. Because of this ignorance, much of the biblical perspective on the great tribulation is lost, as well as one of the most important prophetic signs of the end of the Church’s dispensation, namely the restoration of the people of Israel and their capital city, Jerusalem.

In connection with the return of Christ, Revelation 1:7 states that “every eye will see Him, and they also who pierced Him.” This verse has the express implication that Israel must be back in their land so that they can make a decision in respect of the crucified Messiah who was rejected by their forebears during His first coming.

The status of Jerusalem is the most important single sign that the Lord Jesus gave us regarding the end of the present dispensation and the start of the tribulation period. After He outlined the physical destruction of the city of Jerusalem in Luke 19:41-44 and 21:5-6, He mentioned the world-wide dispersion of the Jews as well as the fact that Jerusalem would, during that time, be trodden down by the non-Jewish nations:

“For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (Lk. 21:23-24; emphasis added).

Paul refers to the time of Israel’s dispersion as a period of spiritual hardening, and to the concurring times of the Gentiles as the period of world evangelism: “...hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob” (Rom. 11:25-26).

The word until in Luke 21:24 does not only point to the time when Jerusalem will no longer be trodden down, but also to the end of the dispensation of the Church when the times of the nations will be fulfilled. It is expedient for us to take note of developments in and around Jerusalem in order that we may correctly interpret the signs of the times (Lk. 12:54-56).

Israel’s independence in 1948 was granted with only the new part of Jerusalem under Jewish control. This was an important indication that the prophesied time of the end was imminent. A very significant situation developed in June 1967 when the part of Jerusalem known as the Old City (Zion and the Temple Mount, that is “biblical Jerusalem”) as well as East Jerusalem, were conquered from Jordan in the Six-day War. By then, the physical restoration of Jerusalem was complete and would be followed by its political restoration as capital city. Keep in mind that the last time Jerusalem was an independent Jewish capital, was before the Babylonian captivity in the sixth century BC. During the time of Christ, the flag of the Roman Empire was flown in the city.

In August 1980, the Israeli prime minister, Menachem Begin, declared Jerusalem to be the eternal and indivisible capital of Israel, and moved his office from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem. During the two years that followed, his entire cabinet was relocated to Jerusalem as office space became available. The political restoration of the city was then complete.

The spiritual restoration of Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the temple must yet occur. Religiously speaking, the city is still being trampled by the heathen as is evidenced by the three Muslim Mosques on the Temple Mount. A major religious development in Israel will be a revival early in the tribulation period, from which 144 000 Messianic Jews will emerge. The other religious development of great significance to the Jews will be the rebuilding of the temple. References to the reconstructed temple which will be desecrated during the middle of the tribulation, can be found in Daniel 9:27 and 11:31; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2. The prophecy of John in Revelation 11 was recorded in the year 95, more than two decades after the destruction of the previous temple in 70 AD, and can therefore only refer to a future, rebuilt temple.

The spiritual rebirth of the whole nation – the remnant of Israel at the end of the great tribulation – will occur when the Messiah appears on the Mount of Olives during His second coming:

“And on that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east” (Zech. 14:4).

Many people are looking forward to this great event. The former mayor of Jerusalem, Teddy Kollek, said that his task was the most difficult of any mayor in the world, namely to prepare the city for the coming of the Messiah.

A week of trial and tribulation
Modern Israel has reinstated its biblical chronology in terms of which years are counted in multiples of seven and called year-weeks. Every six years are followed by a Sabbatical year to complete the cycle, and after seven year-weeks (49 years) a jubilee year is celebrated as the feast of the 50th year (Lev. 25:1-10). Since the tribulation will cover a period of seven years, as indicated in Daniel 9:27, much interest is focused upon Israel’s year-week cycle.

The final year-week before the coming of the Messiah on the Mount of Olives, will be a time of testing and spiritual awakening for Israel. This nation is still spiritually blinded and faces a tough time of purification during the seven years of tribulation (Jer. 30:7; Dan. 9: 27; Ezek. 22:19-21; Zech. 13:8-9). After this purification a remnant of Israel will enter the rest of the Messianic kingdom and enjoy all the promises of blessing and perfection. Although the national conversion of Israel will only take place at the end of the seven years –also called the 70th week of Daniel – a great revival will occur at the beginning of the seven years.

The Jewish tradition of year-weeks enables us to understand why the coming tribulation will be a period of exactly seven prophetic years. In a prophetic time-scale, every month is 30 days in length. Daniel 9:27 refers to this coming year-week of the false messiah’s reign, and his desecration of the temple in the middle of the week. This final year-week is therefore divided into two halves of 3½ years (42 months or 1 260 days) each. It is only against this background that we can understand the following statements in Revelation:

· Two special witnesses will minister for 1 260 days in the tribulation period (Rev. 11:3).

· The rebuilt temple in Jerusalem will be desecrated for 42 months (Rev. 11:2).

· The woman (the people of Israel) will flee to the desert where she will be sustained by God for 1 260 days (Rev. 12:6).

· The Antichrist will have absolute authority in the world as a military dictator for 42 months (Rev. 13:5).

The sealed 144 000
A very important event at the beginning of the tribulation period is a spiritual revival among the Jewish people. Revelation 7:4 clearly states that there will be 144 000 servants of God from Israel who will be sealed on their foreheads: “And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.”

There is nothing vague about this statement and it is completely unjustified to attribute the revival of Revelation 7:1-8 to the Church, or to any other group. It applies emphatically to Israel. By that time the Lord will have removed the true believers from the planet earth. He will then spiritually revive 144 000 Jews from among the restored people of Israel to be His special witnesses. Revelation 7 ties up with an extensive series of prophecies in the Bible in which the guarantee is given that the Lord will not only restore Israel physically to their land, but that they will in the latter days also experience a spiritual revival:

“Therefore say to the house of Israel... I will take you from among the nations... Then will I sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean.... I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgements, and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God” (Ezek. 36:22-28).

Today there are many thousands of Jews who have been exposed to the New Testament facts about the messiahship of Jesus, but most of them are deferring a final decision because of uncertainty, or because of the threat of persecution. A decision will only be taken after the rapture has occurred and all the Messianic Jews (those who have previously accepted Jesus as their Messiah) have been taken away with the Church of Christ. A thorough reappraisal of the facts relating to the Messiah will then have to be made by those left behind.

Because of these dramatic events a large group of Jews all over the world will, in deep repentance under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, accept Yeshua Ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah) as their Saviour. From this revival, according to Revelation 7:3, the Lord will have 144 000 of his servants sealed early in the tribulation and appoint them to a special evangelistic ministry. As happened with Daniel’s three friends they will, as chosen witnesses, be kept safely in the fire of tribulation during this particularly trying time.

The great deceiver strikes
While the scene is set for Israel’s spiritual recovery, the Devil will not let the opportunity go by to produce a false messiah. Immediately after the rapture, great fear and anxiety will prevail in Israel. The situation will be aggravated by an allied Russo-Arab attack which will enfold them from every side (Ezek. 38 and 39). In a most dramatic and unexpected way, God will intervene and save Israel supernaturally by destroying their enemies.

At the same time a dynamic, miracle-working man of Jewish descent will suddenly appear on the scene. Credit for the victory will wrongly be given to this extraordinary man who seemingly came to their rescue at a very critical moment. He will present himself as Israel’s redeemer and promised Messiah. After brief consultations, the national leaders will accept him as such. The Lord Jesus referred to this tragic decision when He said:

“I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive Me; If another comes in his own name, him you will receive” (Jn. 5:43).

This deceiver, who will imitate the true Messiah and attempt to take His place, is the rider on the white horse – the Antichrist. He won’t delay efforts to consolidate his position, and will give his consent to Israel to rebuild the temple. He will discredit the spiritual revival from which the 144 000 witnesses will have come forth, as a perfidious movement outside the will of God. In opposition to the Messianic revival he will channel all religious initiatives into an orthodox course, that will include the rebuilding of the temple and the reinstitution of sacrificial services.

For obvious reasons, there will be a tremendous polarisation between the Messianic Jews on one hand, and the orthodox Jews under the guidance of the false messiah on the other hand. The latter group will be in the majority and pledge unanimous support to their long-awaited messiah. Even when he moves out to the other nations and religions and presents himself as their messiah, and thereby draws Israel into an alliance with other religions, the majority will still be blind to his deceit and support him unconditionally.

The two witnesses
During this period of mass seduction the Lord will send two exceptional witnesses to proclaim to Israel that they should turn to the true God (Rev. 11:3-12). Indications in the Bible are that these two could be Moses and Elijah who appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt. 17:1-3). They may, however, be two modern prophets who will act in the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah. In the last two verses of the Old Testament, the following is said about the end-time ministry of Elijah:

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse” (Mal. 4:5-6).

From prince of peace to tyrant
Halfway through the tribulation period, the covenant between the false messiah and Israel will be broken when he declares himself as God in the temple:

“...there will be a time of great rebellion against God, and then the man of rebellion will come – the son of hell. He will defy every god there is, and tear down every other object of adoration and worship. He will go in and sit as God in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God” (2 Thes. 2:4 LB).

With the assistance of the false prophet he will set up an image of himself in the Holy of Holies and force everyone to worship him. He will abandon all other forms of worship, including the sacrificial services in the temple. Of this wicked ruler, Daniel says:

“This king will make a seven-year treaty with the people, but after half that time, he will break his pledge and stop the Jews from all their sacrifices and their offerings; then, as a climax to all his terrible deeds, the Enemy shall utterly defile the sanctuary of God. But in God's time and plan, His judgement will be poured out upon this Evil One” (Dan. 9:27 LB).

Daniel therefore confirms that the Antichrist will abandon all other forms of worship, including the sacrifices in the temple, after the first 3½ years of his reign.

A disillusioned Israel will refuse any continued allegiance to the counterfeit Messiah who will suddenly declare himself to be God. In so doing they will become the objects of his wrath. Now the false messiah will be the self-declared god of this world and assume the role of the rider on the red horse. He will go on the war-path and endeavour to eradicate Israel and all other dissident groups. He will kill the two witnesses who so adamantly warned the people against him (Rev. 11:7). He will also order the execution of all other people who believe in Christ. In no uncertain way, Jesus warned the Jewish people against this unprecedented persecution by the Antichrist:

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes... And pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, never ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved” (Mt. 24:15-22).

In those days of tribulation many Jews will perish. Zechariah says:

“And it shall come to pass in all the land, says the Lord, that two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die; but one-third shall be left in it” (Zech. 13:8).

The remaining third will be purified in the crucible of tribulation until the time when Jesus returns, then they will be reconciled with Him (Zech. 13:9).

The flight to the desert
Revelation 12 describes the flight of the Israelites to the desert. It will take place shortly after the desecration of the temple and the rescission of the covenant between Israel and the false messiah, halfway through the tribulation.

In the scenario of Revelation 12 it is evident that the conflict between Israel and the Antichrist will not be an isolated phenomenon, but part of the age-old struggle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. The background of events that will culminate in this confrontation, are mentioned by John:

“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days” (Rev. 12:1-6 KJV).

Here Israel is likened to a married woman – not a betrothed virgin like the Church of Christ (compare Jer. 31:1-5; Is. 54:4-8 and Hos. 2:15 for Israel, and Mt. 25:1-13 and 2 Cor. 11:2 for the Church). The woman is also identified by the twelve stars upon her head that indicate the twelve tribes of Israel, as well as the sun and the moon that point to Jacob and Rachel as ancestor and ancestress of Israel. This symbolism is clear from Joseph’s dream:

“Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said: Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me. So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him: What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?” (Gen. 37:9-10. See Jer. 31:11 and 15 where Jacob and Rachel are personified as Israel).

The pregnancy of the woman suggests the period of Christ’s birth. The dragon that draws a third of the angels with him from heaven and stands ready to destroy the child, is no other than the Devil himself. On this occasion the abettor was Herod. He demanded that the infants be murdered in an effort to take the life of Jesus. But the Lord Jesus came and fulfilled His task and He was taken back to heaven. The period when He will rule the nations with a rod of iron will commence after His second coming. According to Revelation 2:26-27, His faithful disciples will reign with Him.

Until Jesus comes again, the Devil is directing his efforts of opposing the kingdom of God against the true Church and Israel. As the spiritual restoration of Israel progresses, Satan will focus much more attention on them – first to deceive them and later to annihilate them – in order that God’s plan with His covenant people may be foiled. It is during this period that Israel is given the command to flee to a place in the wilderness, probably Petra, to survive the great tribulation. There the Lord will protect a remnant for 1 260 days – that is 3½ years.

Christian martyrs
The Antichrist will likewise persecute the Christians of the tribulation period. They will reject him and, in contravention of his explicit orders, only worship the God of Israel through the Messiah, Jesus Christ. In this respect the Christians are close relatives of the woman, Israel (Rev. 12:17). In Romans 11:15-20, Paul says that Christians from the non-Jewish nations have been grafted into the Olive Tree (Israel) and are accordingly closely associated with them. This intimate bond is the source of our love for Israel. The sincere desire and prayer of our heart is that they, too, will recognise Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and enter into the new covenant with Him (Heb. 8:8-13).

True Christians (those who are saved shortly after the rapture) will from the onset recognise the Antichrist as a false leader. They will reject him, as well as the false universal Church. For them there will be, in the brief kingdom of the beast, only one course and that is persecution, martyrdom and death. About these martyrs, John says:

“When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” (Rev. 6:9-10).

These martyrs include all those who will be converted during the tribulation period. Under the ministry of the 144 000 Jewish evangelists there will be many such converts. They will be committed to opposing the Antichrist as a counterfeit Christ and revealing the deception of his multi-faith approach.

Should you live during that time, you must keep in mind that your salvation cannot be effected merely by opposition to the Antichrist and the refusal of his mark, but only by conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ. You must confess your sins, accept Him as your Redeemer and be cleansed by His blood. Only then will you be spiritually equipped to resist the Antichrist, even at the cost of your life. You must indeed be prepared to accept the inevitability of a martyr’s death, for Christians will not survive the great tribulation.

Spiritual victory and martyrdom will go hand in hand:

“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they did not love their lives to the death” (Rev. 12:11).

In heaven they will learn that all their fellow-brothers in Jesus will also have to suffer and die as martyrs:

“And a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed” (Rev. 6:11).

When all the martyrs have been gathered in heaven, they will receive resurrection bodies and greatly rejoice in the Lord. They will no longer remember all the grief and sorrow of persecution, hunger, martyrdom and the execution they suffered because of their faith. Of this vast gathering, John writes:

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes.... These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.... the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes” (Rev. 7:9, 14, 17).

Meeting on the Mount of Olives
The sudden appearance of Christ on the world scene at His second coming is described in Revelation 19, and will take place on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. On that day the remnant of Israel will accept Him as Messiah and be saved:

“And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof towards the east and towards the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove towards the north, and half of it towards the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee” (Zech. 14:4-5 KJV).

The Lord Jesus will come, and with Him the holy ones who were caught up and united with Him seven years earlier. Now He comes to be reconciled with the remnant of Israel who, during the time of the great war of Armageddon, will take refuge in the rock-shelters in the Mount of Olives. Their meeting with Jesus will be for their salvation because, “In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness” (Zech. 13:1 KJV).

On the day of the Messiah’s crucifixion, the fountain was opened potentially for all Israel and the whole world. At the second coming of the Messiah, the fountain will be opened experientially for the Jewish nation. The spiritual cleansing of the nation is associated with Israel’s spiritual regeneration and the conclusion of the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-37; Ezek. 36:25-32; Rom. 11:26-27). “The house of David” (political leaders) and “the inhabitants of Jerusalem” include all the people of the land who need the spiritual cleansing that only the Messiah, Jesus, can graciously bestow on them.

The surviving Jews will refer to the nail-marks in His hands, and ask: “What are these wounds in your hands? Then He will answer: Those with which I was wounded in the house of My friends” (Zech. 13:6). It will be highly moving moments when the remnant of Israel will have great remorse because of their sins, and also because their forefathers rejected the Messiah during His first coming:

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; and they will look on Me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadat Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo” (Zech. 12:10-11).

The great mourning of the last days, described by Zecharaiah, refers to the repentance of the Jewish people and their deep contrition in view of their past unbelief. Under conviction of the sin of rejecting the Messiah they shall look on Him whom they have pierced, and shall mourn, and find cleansing in the fountain opened for sin and for uncleanness. “And so all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:26). Blessed are those who mourn thus (Mt. 5:4) for they shall be comforted through the pardoning mercy of our God freely remitting all their sins, and imparting peace to their souls.

Jesus will be united with the purified, fugitive and sorrowing remnant of His people and comfort them with the words: “This is My people; and each one will say: The Lord is my God” (Zech. 13:9).
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Gideon7620
Such misunderstanding indicates one suffers from delusional dementia.
Stephen
Readers of the forum need to understand this exceptional truth

If you do, you will begin to understand the Bible's presentation of a continued and existant presence of the Israelite nation at the time of the end of this present age

If you do not, you will be vulnerable to some very deceptive teaching which incorporates a flat outright rejection of this truth

Quote:

The surviving Jews will refer to the nail-marks in His hands, and ask: “What are these wounds in your hands? Then He will answer: Those with which I was wounded in the house of My friends” (Zech. 13:6). It will be highly moving moments when the remnant of Israel will have great remorse because of their sins, and also because their forefathers rejected the Messiah during His first coming:

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; and they will look on Me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadat Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo” (Zech. 12:10-11).

The great mourning of the last days, described by Zecharaiah, refers to the repentance of the Jewish people and their deep contrition in view of their past unbelief. Under conviction of the sin of rejecting the Messiah they shall look on Him whom they have pierced, and shall mourn, and find cleansing in the fountain opened for sin and for uncleanness. “And so all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:26). Blessed are those who mourn thus (Mt. 5:4) for they shall be comforted through the pardoning mercy of our God freely remitting all their sins, and imparting peace to their souls.
Joshleet
The Gospel will be preached to the Jewish nation in the end time, but this is a time the great commission will be accomplished and completed
QUOTE
Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the KingdoM (the covenant) shall be preached (shall be confirmed) in all the world for a witness unto all nations(WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK) THEN THE END SHALL COME.
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benny balerio
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 22 2008, 01:07 PM) *
The Gospel will be preached to the Jewish nation in the end time, but this is a time the great commission will be accomplished and completed
QUOTE
Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the KingdoM (the covenant) shall be preached (shall be confirmed) in all the world for a witness unto all nations(WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK) THEN THE END SHALL COME.
.

The Gospel is being preached to all nations at this time,it will even continue to be preached during the millenium, fore no one is forced to except the Lord .It must be by free will.We shall all reign as kings and priests.
In our new immortal bodies we will minister to those who have not yet choosen.
Try to imagine yourself in the millenium with the Lord ruling and reigning....Do you think that you could keep your mouth shut from lifting up His name among men?
I think not!

The one who confirms the covenant with Israel is the ac,....not the Lord.
This is not some sort of spiritual agreement as you are trying to push on this forum.The Lord has already made a covenant with Israel thru Abraham.
And the Lord has made a covenant to all the world that thru Him we can be reconciled unto God by the shedding of His blood sacifice on the Cross of Calvary.
The covenant is not some new covenant that lasts only three and a half years.
The covenant of Daniel 9;27 is a covenant between Israel and the anti-christ.

Isaiah 28:15
15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

The rider on the white horse shall destroy many through peace.

The full statement says, “the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Perhaps the best way to determine the identity of this prince is to first look at what he is prophesied to do at his arrival upon the stage of history. The people of this coming prince will destroy the city, clearly a reference to Jerusalem because of the overall context, and also the sanctuary. What sanctuary was there in Jerusalem? It could be nothing else other than the Jewish temple. Has the city and the temple been destroyed? Yes! Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in a. d. 70 by the Romans. This cannot be a reference to a future time, since, as Dr. Walvoord notes, “there is no complete destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the age as Zechariah 14:1-3 indicates that the city is in existence although overtaken by war at the very moment that Christ comes back in power and glory. Accordingly, it is probably better to consider all of verse 26 fulfilled historically.”
The subject of this sentence is “the people,” not “the prince who is to come.” Thus, it is the people of the prince who is to come that destroys the city and the sanctuary. We have already identified the people as the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in a.d. 70 under the leadership of Titus. Yet, I believe that the prince who is to come is a reference to the yet to come Antichrist. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost explains,

The ruler who will come is that final head of the Roman Empire, the little horn of 7:8. It is significant that the people of the ruler, not the ruler himself, will destroy Jerusalem. Since he will be the final Roman ruler, the people of that ruler must be the Romans themselves.

The coming prince cannot be a reference to Christ, since He is said to be “cut off” in the prior sentence. This prince has to be someone who comes after Christ. The only two viable possibilities is that it could either refer to a Roman prince who destroyed Jerusalem in a.d. 70 or a future Antichrist.
Why should we not see the prince who is to come as a reference to Titus who led the Roman conquest in a.d. 70? Because the emphasis of this verse is upon “the people,” not the subordinate clause “the prince who is to come.” This passage is apparently stated this way so that this prophecy would link the Roman destruction with the a.d. 70 event, but at the same time setting up the Antichrist to be linked to the final week of years to the first “he” in verse 27. He is not described as the prince coming with the people, but instead a detached and distant description, as one who is coming. This suggests that the people and the prince will not arrive in history together. Dr. Steven Miller adds, “but v. 27 makes clear that this ‘ruler’ will be the future persecutor of Israel during the seventieth seven. ‘The people of the rule’ does not mean that the people ‘belong to’ the ruler but rather that the ruler will come from these people.” Interestingly our amillennial friends agree that this is a reference to the Antichrist as noted by Robert Culver:

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