Post-tribulational interpretation of end time exegesis is shunted and very limiting. It is a bankrupt view of the prophetic scriptures. So is preterism which is even more removed from Biblical truths. Neither of these two theologies can match up with what the prophetic visions of the Bible prophets presented in scripture. There are a number of noted flaws that can be identified, evaluated, and proven. The teachers and members associated with these movements will always agree on what they hold in common regarding the refutation of the pre-tribulation view of interpretation …. but they will battle vigorously against each other on much of the balance of their doctrinal beliefs.

One will find these two theologies most prevalent and residing in the “christian” cults along with related false teaching and even in the major divisions of christianity. There is a reason for this in most cases and it involves a need to extract a pre-tribulation rapture and a national Israelite presence from end time exegesis. This is done so that the leaders of these organizations can insert their own proprietary falsehoods into the mix. It opens up the door for development of most any kind of selective interpretation for the purpose of supporting self serving gain in some form.

The correct and required precepts of a pre-tribulation call by the Lord for the church and the inclusion of a national presence of Israel will always shut out the ambitions of those who ignore them. The bottom line source and motivation for this behavior is satanic manipulation in many ways for the purpose of bringing confusion, division, and deception. If you are one who follows either of these two general concepts of post-tribulationalism and preterism in what ever form, be aware that you have exposure to potentially very aberrant teaching which can lead to the loss of your salvation.

What if you're the one who is being manipulated by satan to bring on confusion, division and decption? In other words...how do you discern? I know I go to the SOURCE; which is The Holy Bible, to check what I read and see if it lines up with what The Word states...if it does not, then I flee from that teaching quickly.

Just because someone is a scholar or theologian does not mean their words are factual and one should follow their teachings...a degree or diploma means very little as far as Scripture is concerned.
In fact what The Scriptures say's is we are taught not by school and you cannot buy the Spirit of truth...Here is what The Scripture say's:

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Did John and Peter go to school and obtain degrees? And what about Apostle Paul? Who taught Paul?

Who are we forewarned about all through the Scriptures ?
Jeremiah 5:31
The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

One cannot purchase The Spirit of truth and discernment. One cannot buy truth and nor can a person sell it. It has to come through the Source and through the Root and Offspring; Which has already been written and prophesied for those who believe...

Ooopsy Double post.

"What if you're the one who is being manipulated by satan to bring on confusion, division and decption?"

>What if you are?

>Do not waste any time for adjusting your current belief on this issue

>You could enter the tribulation period as you think you will before this day is over

>There is no guarantee given in scripture for your protection during the tribulation period unless you are one of the 144,000 sealed Israelites, a part of the believing remnant of national Israel, or one of the Lord’s two prophets

>Neither do you know how you will respond to the Lord’s unmitigated wrath

>Many will be killed in the period and will be lost forever

Stephen Stephen...
You already made it clear that people who are not "pre trib" are manipulated by satan:




And I already answered that question Stephen in many way's but here is where I directly answered:


So what if you are? What do you do to know if you are/are not manipulated by satan?

I know where I stand

Better check out what you have been lead to believe before it is to late for you

Let's leave it at that

You have been warned

Find the warning in you Bible

It is there

Why do you do that? Edit and add more to it? I can't answer you when you keep changing your response..?

How do YOU know I could enter the tribulation period as I think before this day is over? Did a birdie tell you that or what? Seriously Stephen.

What justification do YOU have for thinking we're not already in the tribulation? What scolar told you that? In 300 A.D, most of those scholars felt the end was imminent then, now here we are 1700+ years later in very great tribulation! Why not even the people who believe in Jesus Christ can agree on one thing! That is heavy tribulation...it's a battle for the Word over all of the false teachings mankind has formed in more than 2000 years...it was "working" in Apostle Paul's day, so do you think it just quit and we're all fine and dandy here in 2008? I'd say we're are far from being fine and dandy...people are ripping the Word of God to shreds, because rather than actually spend time reading what He say's, people these day's ( for themost part) would rather hear something from someone who has obtained a degree and has the title "Dr." before their name.

Your are way off course with your thinking

To say that the world is currently under the Lord's coming judgment is just and ignorant statement for one to make

Like telling the pre-deluvians that they were drown before the rain started

I am beginning to believe that you are either satanically deceived .... or you are just playing a game on the forum

2Peter
3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Did I say the world is under the Lord's judgment? Please point to me where I wrote that. Do you read the Bible just how you read my posts here? That's not good Stephen. I said "tribulation".

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Satanically deceived...you already stated that for those who do not believe in "pre trib".
Games, I'm not interested in. I take the Word of God very highly and I know it is no game. I like to play games, but not with salvation. Once again...you fail in the way you treat me and others in this forum. Will you ever learn? Do you know attributes of the Spirit Stephen? And if so..why do you not suffer; but rather lash out?

This is what you said:

"What justification do YOU have for thinking we're not already in the tribulation? What scolar told you that?"

So why do you lie about what you cleary state or imply?

Not the first time as I recall

My teaching is not lashing .... you just do not like it

You own the problem here ..... not I

You should determine just why the Word of the Lord rubs you the wrong way

There are reasons for this condition

If you can not take the truth in stride .... then I would suggest that you move out of the way and listen

If you do not like what you hear ... try something else

I cut no corners and do not leave any stone unturned when it comes to rightly presenting the Lord's Word

I am a "no nonsense" and very candid Bible teacher and that is the way I intend to stay

Selah,
Stephen is a proponent of the extra-biblical and false teaching that if you do not believe in the pre-trib rapture than you will likely be left behing by the Lord. He projects his own doctrinal dogmatism onto the Lord Jesus himself. He thinks that Jesus is just like him in his theology and eschatology.

[indent][/indent]When I view some one trying to establish a certian doctrine, and they use fear to do so, Red flags automaticlly go up. This is how modern day cults keep their followers in check and under their control. Usually, all one has to do is Question the validity of their belief, and those who feel they must stay empowered, move into a very defensive mode, using fear for Control. One of the most commonly used threats, is the Loss of ones salvation, if one doesn't bend their knee to their belief and control. This is nothing other than a different Gospel than what the Lord gave us. We all know what the Lord has instructed us to do, when these teachings creep in.

A perfect example of this is Stephen. Just read a bunch of his posts.

This is too much. Finally someone is applying the word "CULT" to Stephen.


JoshLeet.

Oopsy!!! Just making a point, No names needed!!! Something Else I have witnessed over many years, is this type of Person is very insecure in His walk with the Lord, and feels the need to do what they do, to establish a justification in their belief. They may have ample head knowledge about God, but have never drawn closely to the Lord in a very intamate spiritual relationship. If anything, we need to pray for them, that they can be released from this Virtual H-E double toothpicks they have created for themselves. Once one has paid the price and has been with the Master, and knows the truth, it surely does set you free to the point that you know there is no turning back to where the Lord Took you from. We can only encourage and pray for those who have yet to obtain, this degree of Relationship with the Lord that is required, if He is to trust one with the truth.

I think of that old song "Like A Rolling Stone," Bob Dylan.

The chorus goes "How does it Feel?"

Joshleet, that was quite true. You are on the money there.

I wish I would restrain myself with Stephen or others more often and do more praying and less typing for them. I take that as a nudge from the Spirit. Thanks. I will be praying now...

I didn't lie. I think you just misunderstood my question. I'm not talking about the judgment of the Lord...I'm talking about the tribulation that we as believer's are forewarned that we'll go through in our lives.



Well Stephen I have no intention of lying to you or anyone else, so if we misunderstand each other; with patience we can work through it, but if you just continually cut people off "thinking their lying" eventually you'll find that you have no one to teach. Got to have "students" in order to teach, right?


I've nothing against your teaching; when it pertains to the Bible, I'm a very willing listener. I've a problem with how you handle me, both personally and Scripturally.


I've never heard such a saying...which problem do you think I own? If you see something; please alert me, reprove me, fix me, help me..that's the duty of a teacher of the Lord.


His words do not rub me the wrong way...you do.


Good grief Stephen, not only do I own a problem but now I have a condition...you see so many things wrong with me, then why are you willing to point them all out, yet not help me get straight? Apparantly I'm a bigger mess than I thought!


If you were teaching in stride, I'm sure we'd have a very good one on one discussion. But you almost sound dictator like; like this "Here here"! "Listen to me and don't ask questions or off with your heads!" That's not how we are taught in The Word to be toward people...is it???


I like hearing anything about the Lord, once again, but you do not present His Word seasoned at all.


Maybe that's the trouble, you're about 50 paces ahead of the Spirit and anyone who doesn't agree with you in the slightest bit is either ignorant, or way behind, then why don't you stoop down to their level if you are so much greater? The Servent is not greater than the Master; remember Yahshua washed the feet of the disciples? Are my feet too dirty for you to wash?


And that's great...but no one is going to learn anything from you, nor retain it because you have a giant ego that get's in the way of something very meek and humble...which is the Word of God.

Stephen...do you ever consider that God loves you and me? And if He loves me, then why do you not love me too? Something isn't alltogether mixing properly if you lack love. God is love, so if there is no love in you for His children whom you teach, then He is not in you either...I do not know your heart and your life, but I can discern by the fruits you bear and I think you have love and you love God, but unless you can wash people's very very dirty feet, then perhaps you aren't suited for the position of Biblical teacher. I think you would be an awesome teacher actually, but you've got to be more patient and kind and compassionate. I'm not your enemy, because I know I belong to Yahshua, so stop treating me like one, please.

Let me tell you something

You do not know what I love, or anything about me

I am on this forum for one purpose only

To teach Bible prophecy .... that is it

If you do not like what I say about this comprehensive subject

That is tough

Teaching the correct approach to end time exegesis is needed in these last days

I am not here to win any contests as you imply

And teaching the prophetic word has nothing to do with ego

When one confronts my teaching as you have and do in the way you do it

I will respond for a while .... but not long

Then I must ignore your attacks

You will believe what you want .... and I really do not care

If I was the only one on the planet who believes what I believe about Bible prophecy specifically .... I would not change my stride

Not for you .... or anyone else

Is the word "Cult" such a bad word?
I know that many have used this like they were Janet Reno or something.
The word "cult" is synomonous with the word "sect"
There were the Cult of the Pharisees in Jesus day
The cult of the Nazarenes was led by the Apostle Paul
In fact the biggest "Cult" leader there ever was, was Jesus Christ!

Well, perhaps the U.S. Army Cult is the biggest. Who takes boys who are scarcely men... who would walk around a toad so they wont stain their shoe, and then brainwashes them for 8 weeks to run into flying bullets and exploding artillery shells and kill without thought or feeling under the guise of "defending their country' when it is actually someone elses country or business interests that they are actually defending.

Everything is a cult.
The word comes from the word "culture" or "cultivate"

Here in the U.S we have Suburban cults were you get fined if your lawn isn't mowed.

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
John 7:17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlz79qOLnss...feature=related

Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Luke 12:40

You're correct I don't know what you love and that sheds a great deal about you; according to Scripture:
1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


2 Corinthians 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.




Why are you "teaching" something that has already been given by a Teacher greater than all of mankind? You may discern prophecy and understand it but teaching it would actually be considered another doctrine; but you should already know this if you read the Bible rather than theology



Tough for who? Me, you, everyone else...God???



No it is not...love is what is needed in these day's, for without love you can know all the mysteries from ancient to current, but you have actually learned nothing from the Word of Yahweh.


Did I imply a game or contest? No, I think you were the one who said I was either "satanic" or "playing a game"...do you confuse your own words with me? Maybe you are talking to yourself when you react in this manner toward me or others...? Do you consider that?


So enlighten me then.....what does teaching the prophetic word have to do with?


You do not respond; you actually take every question, scripture and response to you as an attack, you are always offended and lash out...you have yet to answer my first post to you in this thread (then again, maybe you did answer by the way you've been reacting..hmmm)?


Let's see I talked about love and gave you a compliment, provided Scripture and asked questions...and you consider that as an attack??? Then you must be working for the enemy if you think I'm attacking you with the Word of Yahweh...


See that's your WHOLE problem; you don't care what people believe, so then why are you claiming to be a teacher of prophecy? You must be doing it for yourself if you could care less of those you're "teaching"...Even the Lord Jesus Christ did nothing of Himself..so are you thinking you're greater than He???

John 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.



Not asking you to change Stephen...you do what you feel in your mind is right. But you aren't a teacher and need to stop claiming to be one, most especially a teacher from or of Yahshua. You are known by your fruits:
Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?