We have one who suggests the joining of the "knee slapper" sect

In all fairness and seriousness, I would say this:

The question proposed by the preterist and the post-tribulationalist is:

"show me the scripture in the Bible that proves the Lord's early calling for the Body of Christ"

Then they use the rank and classic debating tactic of "you can't, or you never do"

They are shown a number of scriptures, passages, and sound rational logic about this truth, but continue to ignore

And then they come back and say ...."see I told you so"

This is infantile logic on their part and this behavior is fitting to their game

The only way they can respond as it seems

It also reveals their inability to support their cause and reveals their own lack of spirit led understanding of the Lord's Word

So what, in your opinion was my below reply considered? I did not ignore any of the initial pre-trib argument post. I directly responded. You are the one who is not directly responding. You only post rantings like the above example.

And talk about "extra Biblical rantings!" Psuedo Ephraem is extra Biblical. That is the evidence that you used to support your view. I clearly refuted this.
And there is nothing essentially wrong with using extra Biblical information to help bring background to the Bible. That is what every single Bible scholar does, even all the pre-trib scholars.

QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 18 2008, 06:47 PM)
We Have to Prepare for the Tribulation???
By Ray Gano
Grant Jeffrey in his book Apocalypse made a very important find from early church teachings. The discovery was from an apocalyptic sermon from the fourth century. The author is designated by the name of “Pseudo-Ephrem” because there is some question whether or not the author was really Ephrem of Nisibis circa 306 – 373 A.D. who was a prolific writer and early Syrian church father. In his sermon called “Sermon on the End of the World” he speaks very clearly of the Rapture of the church before the tribulation.

“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? … All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.” (1)

- Pseudo-Ephrem, A.D. 372


Ray is waaaaay off. I hope he is not deliberately lying. It is hard to believe that Grant is not. After reading the followsing, do you really beleive that brother Jeffrey is not outride lying on purpose?

Pseudo-Pseudo-Ephraem

Grant Jeffrey II, the Sequel!
By Tim Warner - Copyright © January 2001


Grant Jeffrey's "Mission Impossible"

Recently, Grant Jeffrey produced a translation of a sermon reportedly written by Ephraem of Syria in the fourth century. It is now heralded by other prominent pre-tribbers (including Thomas Ice of The Pre-Trib Research Center) as an "ancient pre-trib statement." This document contains a statement that Jeffrey claims is a clear reference to a pre-trib rapture. Jeffrey is demanding that post-tribulationists, in future printings of their books, recant their often stated theme, that post-tribulationism is ancient and pre-tribulationism is modern. He writes; "A number of these [post-trib] authors will have to drastically revise the next edition of their books based on the discovery of new pretribulation rapture texts from the writings of the early church." His conclusion is as follows.


"I believe Ephraem the Syrian's A.D. 373 manuscript, On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World, fully meets the challenge of Dr. William Bell and Rev. John Bray's $500.00 challenge. This new evidence clearly refutes the dogmatic declarations of many that there is no evidence that anyone ever taught the pretribulation rapture before A.D. 1830. The biblical truth of the glorious rapture of the church prior to the Tribulation was definitely taught in the early church. As I have shared in my earlier books, the truth of the pretribulation rapture is supported by the clear insistence on the imminent return of our Lord found throughout the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. In addition, as I pointed out in my Apocalypse book, the apocalyptic fourth vision of The Shepherd of Hermas from A.D. 110 declared that the elect will escape the Great Tribulation. This finding of the pretribulation rapture in Ephraem's writings illustrates that the biblical truth of God's blessed hope and deliverance of the saints was upheld by a remnant of the faithful from the beginning of the church until today."
[When the Trumpet Sounds, pg. 125]

Apparently Grant Jeffrey is quite confident he has found the smoking gun. But he also claimed that the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, Hippolytus, Cyprian, and Victorinus, all taught an 'imminent' (pre-trib) rapture. As we demonstrated in our article Grant Jeffrey's Apocalypse Debacle, all of these claims are bogus! Jeffrey has been engaged in blatant 'revisionism' of the Church Fathers. We demonstrated from these very writings that the early Church did not believe in an imminent, pre-trib rapture, and that Jeffrey manipulated the texts, by omitting key sentences that clearly show they were post-trib, in an attempt to make them appear to support 'imminence.' So far, Jeffrey has grossly overstated his evidence. It is clear, from Grant Jeffrey's own words, that he was determined to find evidence of pre-tribulationism in the early Church no matter what.


"Over the last decade I came to the conclusion that the pretribulation rapture is taught so clearly in the New Testament that it is virtually impossible that no one ever taught this doctrine in the 18 centuries before 1830."
[When the Trumpet Sounds, pg. 108]

Usually, someone that determined to find his "evidence" will eventually find it.

Ephraem of Syria? or Pseudo-Ephraem?
The quotation Jeffrey referred to is found in "Pseudo-Ephraem." The prefix "pseudo—" means "false" or "falsely ascribed to—." Scholars doubt this document is genuinely from the hand of Ephraem of Syria, or that it was written in the fourth century. It was most likely written much later by an anonymous author, who falsely ascribed it to Ephraem the Syrian. So, when Jeffrey wrote "I believe Ephraem the Syrian's A.D. 373 manuscript, On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World...", he has already mis-represented his evidence, and demonstrated the same kind of "spin" that is evident in his other claims. This sermon was neither written by Ephraem the Syrian nor was it written in A.D. 373! And Jeffrey knows this! Ephraem's genuine writings, contained in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection, display no hint of pre-tribulationism. Here is the allegedly pre-trib statement that Jeffrey provides from Pseudo-Ephraem.


"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

This quote, even if not genuinely from Ephraem of Syria, seems impressive on the surface. But based on Jeffrey's track record, we should approach this with some healthy skepticism, and carefully consider the entire sermon, as well as Ephraem's known writings.

The Real Ephraem of Syria
The well respected scholar, Dr. Robert H. Gundry, chairman of the Department of Religious studies at Westmont College and author of seminary textbooks and books on eschatology, has recently authored a book entitled, First the Antichrist. On pages 161-188, he gives several quotes from the real Ephraem of Syria which show that Ephraem believed the resurrection and translation of believers would occur after the tribulation. So, this alleged pre-trib statement, if it is indeed such, would directly contradict statements known to be genuinely from Ephraem of Syria who lived in the fourth century. (For further information regarding this aspect, see Dr. Gundry's book, First the Antichrist). Therefore, we should conclude that either the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon is not genuinely Ephraem's, or Pseudo-Ephraem did not mean to imply a pre-trib rapture, or both!

Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon
Now, lets consider the sermon to see if it consistently supports Jeffrey's claim. (The entire sermon appears at the bottom of this article for those who wish to examine it themselves).

In the first section, the author alluded to the condition of his times, seeing the corruption of the world as indicative of the end of the age.


"Dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. We have already told you that the end of the world is near, the consummation remains. Has not faith withered away among mankind? How many foolish things are seen among youths, how many crimes among prelates, how many lies among priests, how many perjuries among deacons! There are evil deeds among the ministers, adulteries in the aged, wantonness in the youths--in mature women false faces, in virgins dangerous traces! In the midst of all this there are the wars with the Persians, and we see struggles with diverse nations threatening and "kingdom rising against kingdom." When the Roman empire begins to be consumed by the sword, the coming of the Evil One is at hand. It is necessary that the world come to an end at the completion of the Roman empire."

Notice the quotation from Matthew 24:7. Also, notice what the author sees as being at hand, "the coming of the Evil One." He anticipated that the Roman Empire was about to fall, and supposed that upon its fall, the kingdom of Antichrist would arise. He continues;


"...In those days many will rise up against Rome; the Jewish people will be her adversaries. There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come."

Note again the allusion to Matthew 24. It is becoming clear that this author was using Matthew 24 as his backdrop for the sermon. Again, we have no hint as yet of a pre-trib rapture. He continues;


"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?"

Thus far, it appears that the author was not expecting a pre-trib rapture. He saw some of the signs Jesus gave in Matthew 24, hunger, plagues, violence among the nations, as already current and fulfilled. What he saw as "imminent" or "overhanging" was ONLY the arrival of the Antichrist, which Jesus spoke of in verse 15. Pseudo-Ephraem spoke as though Christians should expect the Antichrist's appearance at any time. "There is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one..." This seems to rule out a pre-trib rapture. Had he taught a pre-trib rapture, one would expect that this would be "imminent" for the believers rather than the appearance of Antichrist. He then encouraged believers to reject their earthly cares and prepare themselves so that "he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world." Some might suppose that this means a rapture to heaven. However, later we will see that Pseudo-Ephraem believed Christians would be sustained in remote locations on earth (the "woman" of Rev. 12 sustained "in the wilderness") while the rest of the world reeled under the tribulation. So, with this thought in mind, our forsaking worldly cares, and making preparation to be "drawn" away from the confusion to remote places where Christ will sustain us, is a logical inference from the above statement. Pseudo-Ephraem continues;


"Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

This is the statement that Jeffrey claims clearly teaches a pre-trib rapture. But, note that no rapture, no resurrection, and no coming of the Lord is mentioned. What is said is the elect are "taken to the Lord" prior to the tribulation for the purpose of avoiding the "confusion." Now, such terminology could fit with a pre-trib scenario. But, it does NOT require one. If Pseudo-Ephraem believed Christians would be preserved in remote earthly places, like Elijah was fed by the Lord, like the Israelites were protected in Goshen during the plagues, and fed in the wilderness with manna, and like the prophecy of Revelation 12, where the "woman" is fed by God "in the wilderness," then there is no reason to imagine a pre-trib rapture was meant! He continues;


"And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!"

True to his text, Pseudo-Ephraem alluded to the angels gathering the elect "immediately after the tribulation" [Matt. 24:29-31], and also seems to place this at the "empire of the Lord" (or Millennial Kingdom of God). He seems to be tying in the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13, where the reapers (the angels) harvest the wheat immediately before the Kingdom of God, and after the tribulation, according to Matt. 24:29-31.

In section IV, while describing the horrors of the tribulation, our author made the following interesting statement; "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them." He obviously believed Christians would still be present in the tribulation, perhaps not all prepared themselves, as he exhorted earlier, and so would not be taken to the Lord for protection in remote places.

Furthermore, his comment about dead people not being buried during the tribulation is clearly a reference to Isaiah 26. And this passage also refers to the elect being preserved from the tribulation ON EARTH!


Isaiah 26:20,21
Pseudo-Ephraem

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
(KJV)
"In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them."


Since Pseudo-Ephraem referred to this passage, it is very likely that he also had in mind the preservation of the elect on earth during the tribulation, as is indicated in the immediate context.

In the following quote, we see clearly that Psuedo-Ephraem believed Christians would be preserved in remote places even while the rest of the world starved and went without water.


"Then gold and silver and precious clothing or precious stones shall lie along the streets, and also even every type of pearls along the thoroughfares and streets of the cities, but there is not one who may extend the hand and take or desire them, but they consider all things as good as nothing because of the extreme lack and famine of bread, because the earth is not protected by the rains of heaven, and there will be neither dew nor moisture of the air upon the earth. But those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent, bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs."

Clearly, these who flee from the "face of the serpent," who "bend their knees to God," who leave the cities, who are sustained by God as nursing lambs, and have herbs to eat, are Christians. These are the ones who were "taken to the Lord" so as not to witness the destruction of the world. And it is clear from this passage, that being "taken to the Lord" is NOT a rapture to heaven. It is fleeing the cities to places where the Lord will provide for their needs, as a nursing lamb depends on its mother!

Pseudo-Ephraem's eschatology is not all that different from the Ante-Nicene Fathers, who saw Christians on earth during the tribulation. They viewed the "woman" who fled into the wilderness in Revelation 12, as the Church. Pseudo-Ephraem simply made the logical deduction that the preservation in the wilderness applied to believers who prepared themselves. Notice in the following quotes, earlier writers viewed the "woman" as the Church.

There goes Eli again

Same old song

Give me one verse that proves a post-tribulational "rapture" of the church

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24:29-31

Tell me who will be "resurrected" as you say in this passage that you present

Describe them

And prove to me that this gathering is in fact a resurrection to immortality

I only want scripture to support your interpretation

12:1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. (Mat 24:21-22 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.) But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Dan 12:1-3.

21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:21-25.

How do ya like them apples?

These are just a few of the passages I could quote. You have nothing that says that there will be a resurrection unto mortality again. That would be a novel idea. Sounds like a cult teaching if I ever heard one.

Your scripture apples do not answer the questions

.... and by the way Daniel's people are national Israelites only

And the "elect" in Matthew 24:29-31 are mortal believing Israelites only

Here is what you must explain:

There is nothing in Matthew 24:29-31 that tells of a resurrection to immortality

Nothing .... in fact there isn't one

If all mortal human believers at the time are resurrected as you say, at the end of the tribulation period, then who are the mortals that will populate the Lord's millennial kingdom?

You must answer this question

12:1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. (Mat 24:21-22 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.) But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Dan 12:1-3.

These scriptures prove that the tribulation spoken of in Daniel 12:1-3 is the same one that Jesus refered to in Mat 24:21-22. Jesus was quoting from Daniel and Jeremiah 30:6, whome Daniel was quoting from.

21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:21-25.

Here, Paul said that there will be a resurrection of those in Christ, "at his coming." That is another connecter proving that the gathering in Mat 24 includes the resurrection of the righteous.

1. Daniel put the resurrection after the tribulation in Dan 12:1-3.

2. Jesus quoted Daniel and put the gathering of the elect at the end of the tribulation in Mat 24.

3. Paul ( 1 Cor 15) put the resurrection of the righteous at the coming of the Lord, which Jesus tagged at the "immediately after the tribilation."

4. Therefore, Paul borrowed info from Daniel that the resurrection would take place after the tribulation. Jesus revealed the the living righteous would be gathered after the tribulation. Paul then combines the two things into one event in 1 Thes 4. The rapture of the livign elect and the resurrection of the elect all happen at once "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and at the "coming of the Lord."

Now stick that in your pipe and smoke it!



When Daniel was writing, the mystery of the church was not revealed yet. But after Pentecost the gentiles were welcomed into the new covenant made with Israel and thus became "the elect."

Since the blood of Messiah was shed on the cross, there is no division in God between believing Jews and believing Gentiles. We are all in one body. Think about this:

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Eph 2:11-22.



No I must not.
I already thoroughly proved how the rapture is at the end of the tribulation and it includes the resurrection of the righteous, both Jew and Gentiles are involved with all of this, not just Israel alone.

I will not jump from one topic to another so that you can be distracted from the point I am making.

I used to think the 'rapture' theory was a stumblingblock...but now, I believe it is a snare. Excellent work Eli; There is plenty of Scripture to shed light to the Biblical FACT that we're all going through the tribulation together; and why else would He have given us His Word and say's:

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rapture followers are following a liar who say's the exact opposite to what our Saviour say's.

One thing I have noticed about most of Today's Prominent Prophetic "theologians", Is they have cerian doctrine they have "set in stone" and in no possable way, will they renounce it. To do so, would put their Large ministries in Jeopardy, and expose them for what they truly are. They are not only false Prophets, But agents doing Satan's bidding for them. [indent][/indent]It would be one thing if their Eschatology could be viewed as a "view seen through the glass darkly", leaving room for New Rhema knowledge to be added the closer we get to the Lord's return, but they leave no room for this. This will be their downfall. What they don't understand though, is even though what they think they are teaching is absolute Gospel truth of the end time, it leaves no room for deeper understanding the closer we get. Many have been decieved, and have bought into this "bill of Goods", never realizing that the ultimate outcome these folks are teaching, is actually leading many sheep right into the arms of the enemy. They will stand before the Lord and be held accountable for this.

Let me answer this one... The "harvest" (rapture) occuring at the end of the 70th week, does leave a 45 day period that will follow when the vials of the wrath of God is poured out. Daniel 12:12 Speaks of a special blessing on those who make it through this time. It is those who survive this, that will go forth and repopulate the earth. There is time for a remnant to be Left, but Just as the Lord stated, He would Make man more precious than a golden wedge of Ophir (Is. 13:12) It is in this time the marriage supper takes Place. We then later return with the Lord.

That is called pre-wrath. I don't have time now to explain why I can't agree. Maybe some other day if you want to here about why I will be glad to chat about it. Pre-wrath is not that radically different than historic premillennilalism (post trib rapture). Pre wrathers do see a lot of the scriptural acrobatics that pre-triber continually come up with to support their theory. I commend them for that.

"No I must not.
I already thoroughly proved how the rapture is at the end of the tribulation and it includes the resurrection of the righteous, both Jew and Gentiles are involved with all of this, not just Israel alone"

>No, just the contrary is true .... you must

>But you cannot

>Because your post-trib view has no explanation for the believing mortals who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom

>You just failed the testing

>You did not and cannot answer this question because your post-tribulational view has no honest answer

>The scriptures will not allow your set up

>We only need this one ... but I can tell you there are some very significant others

"Let me answer this one... The "harvest" (rapture) occuring at the end of the 70th week, does leave a 45 day period that will follow when the vials of the wrath of God is poured out. Daniel 12:12 Speaks of a special blessing on those who make it through this time. It is those who survive this, that will go forth and repopulate the earth. There is time for a remnant to be Left, but Just as the Lord stated, He would Make man more precious than a golden wedge of Ophir (Is. 13:12) It is in this time the marriage supper takes Place. We then later return with the Lord"

>The "harvest that you speak of in Revelation 14 is one of judgment only

>The grapes are not believers, but unbelievers who will follow the beast

>These will be gathered and the Lord will tread the winepress of His wrath at Armageddon

>If the Lord's call for today's Body of Christ was to occur at the end of the tribulation of those days .... there would be no human believers to enter His millennial kingdom as mortals

>There will be

>You also attempt to stretch the 70th week and add an extended time frame

>None of the prophetic scriptures tell this

>The 30 days will involve the Lord's wrath against the beast and his followers

>The next 45 will involve His gathering and separating of the mortals who survive the tribulation period

>Some survivors of the tribulation will be found believing .... and some will not

>Those found believing will enter His kingdom

>Those found in unbelief will not

>This is a very clear scriptural teaching

>It looks to me like you are promoting your own end time exegesis story and it is not of the scriptures

The "harvest that you speak of in Revelation 14 is one of judgment only

>The grapes are not believers, but unbelievers who will follow the beast

>These will be gathered and the Lord will tread the winepress of His wrath at Armageddon

>If the Lord's call for today's Body of Christ was to occur at the end of the tribulation of those days .... there would be no human believers to enter His millennial kingdom as mortals

>There will be

>You also attempt to stretch the 70th week and add an extended time frame

>None of the prophetic scriptures tell this

>The 30 days will involve the Lord's wrath against the beast and his followers

>The next 45 will involve His gathering and separating of the mortals who survive the tribulation period

>Some survivors of the tribulation will be found believing .... and some will not

>Those found believing will enter His kingdom

>Those found in unbelief will not

>This is a very clear scriptural teaching

>It looks to me like you are promoting your own end time exegesis story and it is not of the scriptures
[/quote]
Stephen, what you state above is untrue and you know it!!!! You state that "the Judgement that I speak of In Rev. 14 is that of Judgement only". Rev 14:15-20 Clearly gives a picture of TWO ANGELS, each with Their own SICKLE doing two seperate harvests at the end of the age. to deny this you must also deny the Parrabel that Jesus taught, of the end time harvest in Matthew 13:37-43. In vs. 41 We witness the Lord sending forth His angels for the harvest. THESE ARE THE ANGELS WITH THE sickles of rev. 14. If you can deny this to protect your precious pre-trib doctrine, than I can truly say you have been decieved to a point of no return. I do not "stretch" the 70th week of Daniel. The Book of daniel However, does "stretch events 45 days past the abomination of desolation, which occurs at the end of the 70th week.... DEAL WITH IT! ITS THE TRUTH, ONe you are unwilling to accept, because it goes against your current understanding. I guess this is Just one passage of Scripture you will have to rip out of the Bible, or perhaps obtain a black marker, and mark out, seeing it doesn't line up with what you believe.

>The first preparing for the harvesting is the Lord

>And there are actually three angelics involved in the process of "harvesting" the "grapes"

>This is a harvest of "grapes" only

>Ripe .... for judgment

>An angelic gathers .... and the Lord comes and treads in chapter 19

>I only promote the scriptures as they stand unlike yourself

Revelation
14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man [the Lord], having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

>This entire passage is all about judgment of the beast and his followers at Armageddon

>Numerous angelics will assist the Lord in His judgment process during the tribulation period as Revelation presents

>There is no resurrection to immortality in this passage for any of the grapes

>You are taking this passage out of the context of the chapter and creating a resurrection so that you can fit it to your story

As expected, anyone who embraces the pre-trib rapture would natually have to dispute that this harvest is the rapture. How one can NOT SEE that there is two Parts of this harvest, is beyond me. How much more of the Word of God are you willing to deny, to establish YOUR doctrine??

"As expected, anyone who embraces the pre-trib rapture would natually have to dispute that this harvest is the rapture. How one can NOT SEE that there is two Parts of this harvest, is beyond me. How much more of the Word of God are you willing to deny, to establish YOUR doctrine??"

>I think you are denying the truth of the passage in question on purpose

>And there seems to be much understanding "beyond" you

>I have to say at this point that you have just destroyed your own credibility by deliberately skewing Revelation 14:14-20

>You show a major lack of descernment .... combined with your own unwillingness to bend from your newly proposed interpretations

>Your view just does not match up with what is plainly given in scripture

>You have painted yourself into a corner on this one

I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS INGATHERING IS. And it is you that have painted yourself in the Corner my Friend!!!!

[/indent]You state that this "harvest" is for nothing more than the Judgement of God. You are correct!!

QUOTE

REv. 14:19 And the angel thrust in His sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it INTO THE GREAT WINEPRESS OF THE WRATH Of GOD.

Now, I know this may be hard for a pre-tribber to swallow, but up to this point, God's wrath has yet to be poured out. This is what we are told, we are not destined for.

QUOTE

I thess 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

You even admitt this!!!! This "harvest' does prepare the World for the wrath of God. everything that has occured in revelation PRIOR To this preperation, The seals, the first six trumpets, and the 42 month reign of the false Messiah, is not part of God's wrath being poured out!

Understanding this totally decimates any "pre-tribulation rapture view", because you even agree that up untill now, God's wrath has not been poured out!!! How can you state, what you accept as God's Judgement , then state the preperation for God's wrath and Judgement, doesn't occur untill now???

It is at the Last trump this occurs, when the Kingdoms of the World become the Kingdoms of Our Lord. This occurs after the 42 month reign of the false Messiah, at the end of the age, Just as Jesus stated. [indent]

If one has eyes to see, it is quite evident that the one that "sat upon the clouD "like unto the Son of Man IS JESUS" This is what you call the "rapture" before the vials of God are poured out. Yes you are right, both Harvesters prepare for God's wrath to be poured out.. The first one is of believers, and the second is those cast into the great winepress of the WRATH OF GOD.

You do not see this one

And it is very obvious to one who descerns correctly

The passage has two actions only

The "cutting" [reaping of the grapes]

And the "gathering" [into the wine press] of the same

This passage is one of judgment .... not a resurrection

There is no one ounce of an indication of a resurrection in this passage

You are putting it there

Again, you demonstrate your own lacking of what you always claim

That you have spiritual eyes to see

You do this to impress and to promote your story

Oh really? Then what is the wheat the Lord Collects (reaps), at the same time the tares are cut down?? (Gathered)?? The good Crop is always reaped (harvested). while the bad is (Gathered) and burned. It is you who are trying to make this something that it isn't. [indent][/indent]You also have yet to respond to the cunundrum you got yourself into, about How can this Be NOW preparing for God's wrath and Judgement, Which according to you, Started seven years prior to this?? The vials are filled up with God's wrath, and anything that has occured prior to this, is not God's Judgement...

There is no wheat in the passage .... only grapes

You are importing the wheat into the context

The parable of the wheat and tares is a totally different projection and time frame

The spirits of all unbelievers [tares] will be gathered and burned in the lake of fire .... after the Lord's millennial kingdom

The wheat ..... the spirits of all believers .... will enter the "barn" ..... of eternity beginning in chapter 21

The Lord is looking long here .... this is not the gathering of the grapes in chapter 14

Chapter 14 presents a gathering of unbelievers that will take place at Armageddon and refers to the physical destruction of the little horn and his followers ..... 1,000 years before the Lord's projection of the wheat and the tares

You are a terribly confused guy

Or maybe a very presumptious one who is desperately trying to fit scripture into your pre-conceived story

This cannot be done .... the scriptures, when understood properly, prevent your attempt

You have once again omitted clarifying how the World is being prepared to face the wrath of God in Rev 14, but you then state that the entire Seven year period is part of God's wrath.

[/indent]It is very apparent that this cannot occur untill after the 42 month reign of the false messiah, which you yourself have established, by stating that his reign is in the last half of the 70th week, and this falls on those who have accepted and worshipped Him as God. You own words have established what I have been sharing. The true Day of the Lord, when His wrath is poured out, Follows the 70th week, and If God is Just,Has to follow the Seven year period.

You then have to redefine the Wheat/tare harvest ocurring at the end of the World, When Jesus clearly establishes it occurs at the end of THIS AGE.[indent]

Granted, the tares will be destroyed, but this only occurs at the Great white throne Judgement, but the harvest already occured 1000 years earlier. The destruction of the tares, doesn't change the timing of the harvest. The rest of the dead (the tares) Have already been harvested.

"You then have to redefine the Wheat/tare harvest ocurring at the end of the World, When Jesus clearly establishes it occurs at the end of THIS AGE"

>Wrong

>The tares [the spirits of unbelieving humans] will be gathered burned in the lake of fire "after" the Lord's millennial kingdom .... not after the tribulation period

>This same earth will be used for the Lord's millennial kingdom and will be one of mortals

>He is obviously speaking of the time [end] after the millennium when He will create a new heavens and earth as recorded in chapter 21

>Humans intransigents [the grapes] killed at Armageddon will lose their physical lives at the end of the tribulation period, but their spirits will not burn until the end of the millennial kingdom

>This is quite clear as presented in scripture

>The Lord's parable is longer reaching and congruent with Revelation 20

>You are the one redefining here and your conclusions are innacurate

>They do not fit what the scriptures teach

>And again, chapter 14 is the reaping and gathering of those consumed in the winepress of Armageddon .... there is no resurrection of believers in the passage

>This correct rendering is totally compatible with the Lord's parable and Revelation 19, 20, and 21