Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

by Thomas Ice
"And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."

-Deuteronomy 30:7-8

God's purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God's plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord's plans for His elect nation-Israel.


The Tribulation Focuses on Israel
The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:

The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and

the oblation" of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2


The Church is Absent from the Tribulation
Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.

If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:

However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the se

ven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3


Tribulation on a Christ-Rejecting World
Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God's wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.

Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God's judgment upon Christ-rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8), shall herself "be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18:8). The "cities of the nations" shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20:3). God's judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9). Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel--these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).4

Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God's focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern:

1) then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3)

2) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall posses

s it . . . (Deut. 30:5a)

3) And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8)

Zechariah speaks of the Lord's retribution upon the nations as a time when "the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:8-9) Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church.

The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God's judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called "earth dwellers." As God prosecutes His judgment upon the "earth dwellers," John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Un like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the "earth dwellers" do not relent in the wake of "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the "earth dwellers" would "not repent of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshipping Christ, "the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast" (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they "blasphemed God" (Rev. 16:21). Finally, "all the nations were deceived" (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the santanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God's city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to resue Israel from the world's armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revovles around God's plan for Israel, not the church.


Conclusion
Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes,

Never are tribulation saints given the special and perculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint.5

Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha! W

...............................................benny

Tom Ice is a very knowledgeable and respected Bible teacher

It does not take a page of writing to prove this dude wrong........

9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

These are the elects that will speak against satan,,,the same elects God shortened the time of the tribulation for....

20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Do not say to yourself that this is only dealing with jews,,,or Israel........for::::

Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As you can see,,,hopefully,,,,that the elects will be gathered from the earth,,,,,they are not going anywhere......They will remain here fighting against the system/antichrist until the return of the true Lord......

Oh my goodness! Not Dr. Ice Paleeeeeeeze read the Bible Benny before you post someone elses false teaching. Atleast if you're going to share with the class here another teaching, why don't you make sure and make certain it's not deceptive material first. Don't try and prove a deceptional teaching is acurate by a deceiver, prove it with and by the Truth, The Word of God. Seriously.

Laziness is another one of satans greatest tools.

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Dear Selah,....Please enlighten us to what you find false in post number 1 written by Ice?
.................................................benny

Dear Benny, I think there is plenty of light shed on that already. Search the Scriptures and then you will find that light. Don't search someone 'rooted' in Tim LaHaye. Search the source and ROOT.

Romans 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Dear Selah,....I have done this long ago and I find nothing false in Dr Ice's teaching,.....So please point out what you find false, so that all may benefit.
If not,your excusing Dr Ice is without reason.
.................................................benny

This could be long winded or I could be straight to the point:
Tim LaHaye, you know the "left behind NOVEL author" equates to this passage:

John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

See, not many people are listening to Jesus, which is The Word and source and True Shepherd and ROOT, no, just like He said, they shut His voice out and are listening to the "prince of this world".

I'd like for you to go to that Source and then provide some passages that line up with what Ice and LaHaye teach. LaHaye is nothing more than a Judas Iscariot. Making $$$$$$ off the Word, twisting it to suit the masses and tickle the ears that itch.

http://www.pre-trib.org/about-ice.php

Therein lies why I refuse to listen to Ice and his LaHaye Shepherd.

Mark 15:24
And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.



Main Entry: 1lot
Pronunciation: \ˈlät\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hlot; akin to Old High German hlōz
Date: before 12th century
1: an object used as a counter in determining a question by chance
2 a: the use of lots as a means of deciding something b: the resulting choice
3 a: something that comes to one upon whom a lot has fallen : share b: one's way of life or worldly fate : fortune
4 a: a portion of land b: a measured parcel of land having fixed boundaries and designated on a plot or survey c: a motion-picture studio and its adjoining property d: an establishment for the storage or sale of motor vehicles <a used car lot>
5 a: a number of units of an article, a single article, or a parcel of articles offered as one item (as in an auction sale) b: all the members of a present group, kind, or quantity —usually used with the<sampled the whole lot of desserts>
6 a: a number of associated persons : set <fell in with a rough lot> b: kind , sort
7: a considerable quantity or extent <a lot of money> <lots of friends>

John 14:30 commentary:
Christ raises the expectations of his disciples to something beyond what they thought was their greatest happiness. His time was now short, he therefore spake largely to them. When we come to be sick, and to die, we may not be capable of talking much to those about us; such good counsel as we have to give, let us give while in health. Observe the prospect Christ had of an approaching conflict, not only with men, but with the powers of darkness. Satan has something in us to perplex us

with, for we have all sinned; but when he would disturb Christ, he found nothing sinful to help him. The best evidence of our love to the Father is, our doing as he has commanded us. Let us rejoice in the Saviour's victories over Satan the prince of this world. Let us copy the example of his love and obedience.

Selah,Are you getting something eles different out of this other than what stated out of this commentary?
Also, obviously you are pointing out the word "LOT"...as in the parting of the Lord's garments.What do you believe is falsely stated by Dr. Ice?
You put out a link,...but I do not intend to take the next two hours of searching, unless you can at least post his whole topic, so that I may study and compare to your complaint to decide if it warrants validity of your statement.I hope that you can understand this.

.......................................benny

The purpose of the tribulation is:

1.God is judging the world for its sin

2. God is judging Israel for their sin

3. God is simultaneously purging Israel of "rebels"
Ezekiel 20
33 “As I live, declares the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out I will be king over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face. 36 As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you, declares the Lord God. 37 I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. 38 I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

4. God is using the church as a witness to Israel.

Rom 11:11-12,15,25.
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!...
15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?...
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved

The church will fulfill her purpose and "provoke Israel to jealousy." Israel will want Jesus as a result of the church's witness. This is a part of what is meant by "the fullness of the Gentiles coming in." The church that is mature enough to be a witness to Israel is the one that will be used by God as martyre witnesses (mostly but not entirely) to Israel. When there is an authentic church living in every nation and/or locality, the end will begin. The devil will react in fear of this church and eventually send the antichrist as a last ditch effort to hold power on earth.

4. God is reaching out to Israel's remnant (going to be save yet) as they are in flight from the antichrist in the "wilderness of the nations."
Ez 20:33-3
"33 “As I live, declares the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out I will be king over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered,
This is the future time of Jacob's trouble. The Jewish people will be in flight from the forces of the antichrist.
with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples,
and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face.
God will actually encounter these people scattered all over the earth in hiding. It will be a pivotal, defining event like Mt Sinai was. "Face to face" reminds us of how God knew Moses in the tent of meeting "face to face." The church will be the face that these Jews encounter as they both are together in flight from the antichrist.
36 As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you, declares the Lord God.
37 I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant.
The covenant will be salvation in the new covenant, because the Old Covenant is no longer valid or required of the Jews. God will make them pass under the rod as a shepherd personally accounts for each of his animals.
38 I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord."
The forces of antichrist will effectually exterminate many Jewish people. These will be the "rebels" who will try to exscape the antichrist but will perish before the Lord's return.

Commentary to your reply as to what it means:

33. Here begins the second division of the prophecy. Lest the covenant people should abandon their distinctive hopes and amalgamate with the surrounding heathen, He tells them that, as the wilderness journey from Egypt was made subservient to discipline and also to the taking from among them the rebellious, so a severe discipline (such as the Jews are now for long actually undergoing) should be administered to them during the next exodus for the same purpose (Ezekiel 20:38), and so to prepare them for the restored possession of their land (Hosea 2:14,15). This was only partially fulfilled before, and at the return from Babylon: its full and final accomplishment is future.
with a mighty hand, . . . will I rule over you--I will assert My right over you in spite of your resistance (Ezekiel 20:32), as a master would in the case of his slave, and I will not let you be wrested from Me, because of My regard to My covenant.

34. The Jews in exile might think themselves set free from the "rule" of God (Ezekiel 20:33); therefore, He intimates, He will reassert His right over them by chastening judgments, and these, with an ultimate view, not to destroy, but to restore them.
people--rather, "peoples."

35. wilderness of the people--rather, "peoples," the various peoples among whom they were to be scattered, and about whom God saith (Ezekiel 20:34), "I will bring you out." In contrast to the literal "wilderness of Egypt" (Ezekiel 20:36), "the wilderness of the peoples" is their spiritual wilderness period of trial, discipline, and purification while exiled among the nations. As the state when they are "brought into the wilderness of the peoples" and that when they were among the peoples "from" which God was to "bring them out" (Ezekiel 20:34) are distinguished, the wilderness state probably answers partially to the transition period of discipline from the first decree for their restoration by Cyrus to the time of their complete settlement in their land, and the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple. But the full and final fulfilment is future; the wilderness state will comprise not only the transition period of their restoration, but the beginning of their occupancy of Palestine, a time in which they shall endure the sorest of all their chastisements, to "purge out the rebels" (Ezekiel 20:38, Daniel 12:1); and then the remnant (Zechariah 13:8,9, 14:2,3) shall "all serve God in the land" (Ezekiel 20:40). Thus the wilderness period does not denote locality, but their state intervening between their rejection and future restoration.
plead--bring the matter in debate between us to an issue. Image is from a plaintiff in a law court meeting the defendant "face to face." Appropriate, as God in His dealings acts not arbitrarily, but in most righteous justice (Jeremiah 2:9, Micah 6:2).

36. (Numbers 14:21-29). Though God saved them out of Egypt, He afterwards destroyed in the wilderness them that believed not (Jude 1:5); so, though He brought the exiles out of Babylon, yet their wilderness state of chastening discipline continued even after they were again in Canaan.

37. pass under the rod--metaphor from a shepherd who makes his sheep pass under his rod in counting them (Leviticus 27:32, Jeremiah 33:13). Whether you will or not, ye shall be counted as Mine, and so shall be subjected to My chastening discipline (Micah 7:14), with a view to My ultimate saving of the chosen remnant (compare John 10:27-29).
bond of . . . covenant--I will constrain you by sore chastisements to submit yourselves to the covenant to which ye are lastingly bound, though now you have cast away God's bond from you. Fulfilled in part, Nehemiah 9:8,26,32-38, 10:1-39; fully hereafter (Isaiah 54:10-13, 52:1,2).

38. (Zechariah 13:9, 14:2).
purge out--or, "separate." Hebrew, barothi, forming a designed alliteration with "berith," the covenant; not a promise of grace, but a threat against those Jews who thought they could in exile escape the observation and "rule" of God.
land of Israel--Though brought out of the country of their sojourn or exile (Babylon formerly, and the various lands of their exile hereafter) into the literal land of Palestine, even it shall be to them an exile state, "they shall not enter into the land of Israel," that is, the spiritual state of restored favor of God to His covenant people, ,which shall only be given to the remnant to be saved (Zechariah 13:8,9).

39. Equivalent to, "I would rather have you open idolaters than hypocrites, fancying you can worship Me and yet at the same time serve idols" (Amos 5:21,22,25,26; compare 1 Kings 18:21, 2 Kings 17:41, Matthew 6:24, Revelation 3:15,16).
Go ye, serve--This is not a command to serve idols, but a judicial declaration of God's giving up of the half-idol, half-Jehovah worshippers to utter idolatry, if they will not serve Jehovah alone (Psalms 81:12, Revelation 22:11).
hereafter also--God anticipates the same apostasy afterwards, as now.

40. For--Though ye, the rebellious portion, withdraw from My worship, others, even the believing remnant, will succeed after you perish, and will serve Me purely.
in mine holy mountain--(Isaiah 2:2,3). Zion, or Moriah, "the height of Israel" (pre-eminent above all mountains because of the manifested presence of God there with Israel), as opposed to their "high places," the worship on which was an abomination to God.
all--not merely individuals, such as constitute the elect Church now; but the whole nation, to be followed by the conversion of the Gentile nations (Isaiah 2:2, "all nations;" Romans 11:26, Revelation 11:15).
with--rather, "in all your holy things" [MAURER].

41. with--that is, in respect to your sweet savor (literally, "savor Or, I will accept you (your worship) "as a sweet savor" [MAURER], (Ephesians 5:2, Philippians 4:18). God first accepts the person in Messiah, then the offering (Ezekiel 20:40, Genesis 4:4).
bring . . . out from . . . people, &c.--the same words as in Ezekiel 20:34; but there applied to the bringing forth of the hypocrites, as well as the elect; here restricted to the saved remnant, who alone shall be at last restored literally and spiritually in the fullest sense.
sanctified in you before . . . heathen--(Jeremiah 33:9). All the nations will acknowledge My power displayed in restoring you, and so shall be led to seek Me (Isaiah 66:18, Zechariah 14:16-19).

43. there--not merely in exile when suffering punishment which makes even reprobates sorry for sin, but when received into favor in your own land.
remember--(Ezekiel 16:61,63). The humiliation of Judah (Nehemiah 9:1-38) is a type of the future penitence of the whole nation (Hosea 5:15, 6:1, Zechariah 12:10-14). God's goodness realized by the sinner is the only thing that leads to true repentance (Hosea 3:5, Luke 7:37,38).

44. The English Version chapter ought to have ended here, and the twenty-first chapter begun with "Moreover," &c. as in the Hebrew Bible.
for my name's sake--(Ezekiel 36:22). Gratuitously; according to My compassion, not your merits. After having commented on this verse, CALVIN was laid on his death bed, and his commentary ended.

45-49. An introductory brief description in enigma of the destruction by fire and sword, detailed more explicitly in Ezekiel 21:1-32.

46. south . . . south . . . south--three different Hebrew words, to express the certainty of the divine displeasure resting on the region specified. The third term is from a root meaning "dry," referring to the sun's heat in the south; representing the burning judgments of God on the southern parts of Judea, of which Jerusalem was the capital.
set thy face--determinately. The prophets used to turn themselves towards those who were to be the subjects of their prophecies.
drop--as the rain, which flows in a continuous stream, sometimes gently (Deuteronomy 32:2), sometimes violently (Amos 7:16, Micah 2:6, Margin), as here.
forest--the densely populated country of Judea; trees representing people.

47. fire--every kind of judgment (Ezekiel 19:12, 21:3, "my sword"; Jeremiah 21:14).
green tree . . . dry--fit and unfit materials for fuel alike; "the righteous and the wicked," as explained in Ezekiel 21:3,4, Luke 23:31. Unsparing universality of the judgment!
flaming flame--one continued and unextinguished flame. "The glowing flame" [FAIRBAIRN].
faces--persons; here the metaphor is merged in the reality.

49. Ezekiel complains that by this parabolic form of prophecy he only makes himself and it a jest to his countrymen. God therefore in Ezekiel 21:1-32 permits him to express the same prophecy more plainly.

.........................................................benny

Benny! Do you also understand that Jesus Christ IS? When He "was" talking to His disciples; He also IS talking us, the one's reading. You can't really hear His voice can you if someone else is standing between you and He?





I don't understand what this has to do with anything? Jesus Christ is Alive! And are we not brought to life with Him?




Great thinking and Christian advice! So why are you not heeding that yourself??



The link was Dr. Ice, you mean to tell me you quote teachings and don't even know the foundation?
Now THAT is perplexing! And quite alarming too!

I'm trying to tell you "Biblically" that Dr Ice and Lahaye are not preaching/teaching the Word, sure they take a little here, add a little there, remove a little there and before you know it BOOM, a new doctrine! And many people follow them, yet we are specifically warned NOT to go after them:


Luke 17:23'34
And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24: For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

My question is this; why are you following men who only want $$$ and thus is why they have their own little doctrine going on. If they had been faithful to the Word, then no one would be buying their stuff would they? Why buy something that's already available to all and FREE? Think about it Benny.

So you disrespectfully ignore what I actually took the time to write (off of the top of my head)?

Is this copied commentary supposed to correct me about something? I would take issue with a fre things he surmised. I have good reason to from the scriptures. Fist of all, he allegorized the land of Israel when it is convenient for his beliefs. Then he takes the land of Israel literally in the rest of the very same verse!

Typical pre-trib juggling...

Tim Lahaye encourages people to masterbate in his marraige book. I read it.
He said that masterbating helps people to get to know themselves sexually. He said masterbating helps you learn to be better in bed with your spouse. Real Christian there....

He teaches falsehood.

The book is called The Act of Marraige.

Selah, excuse me,we have an emergency at my house.
....................................................benny

Thomas Ice is in the same boat of misleaders as Hal Lindsey, J.R. Church, Tim Lahaye, and a host of others. My very most unfavorite of all the big shots, John Hagee and Hal who have nothing good to say about post tribulationist. They are misleading and deceiving millions by teaching a doctrine of false hope which leads to a failure of christians to prepare for the difficult times to come. All because they teach the cop-out that the churh will not be here. Most of these pretribulationist and revived Roman Empirist big shots teach the myth that the antichrist will be a global dictator. And many still teach that Rome (Pope) will unite the world's religions into the religion of the beast. I don't like what these people do and they don't like me.

SW

Yes Selah,...I do understand who Jesus is.I have quite a history of Him dealing with me,....even through signs.
You and others have made some statements against Dr Ice and Tim.
Do you go against their teaching because they teach pre-trib?
Just exactly what verses have they stated that you believe to be false?
I do seem to be having some difficulty in persuading you to reveal what you believe is a false teaching.
I suspect that you do not believe in pre-trib?
Soory I could not reply back eatlier, but our dog was killed and the grandkids were all crying.
......................................benny

What was the emergency?? Everything alright??

*edit* Just saw your last reply now I'm sorry about your dog

You suspect wrongly. I believe just what the Scriptures say:
Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

notice the words all of them..."as was not SINCE...."

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Gotta listen to the Shepherd and the "founding Fathers" Not those that come afterwards selling Truth, which you can't sell nor can you purchase...I do hope you can understand.

No not really,....Our dog was killed and the grandkids were all crying.
they are digging a hole for the dog at this moment.
I know that there are animals in heaven,maybe if we ask,....the Lord will grant that the dog could be a companion to us all in heaven.

......................................................benny

What happened? Was the dog older? I really am sorry. It's tough to lose anyone and animals are included; they're like family members too And read this verse and you decide if they'll be in Heaven.

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Take a break Benny...comfort your grandchildren with Yahshua's Words...atleast if adults don't understand, it is sure that children do, for they are more wiser than us all..

Benny,

We lost a little dog recently and this is a tragic thing. Get a new one as soon as possible. This works. And the Lord is capable and will preserve your dog's spirit for a reunion .... nothing is impossible for the Lord.

So sorry to hear about your dog, Benny. Take Stephen's advice.

May the Lord bring peace and joy to you and your family.

Sorry about the dog.
Tell the kids we feel bad and are sorry about it too.

I hope the dog had a peaceful death.
I hope to see our animals in the world to come also.