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benny balerio
Read Matt 25:31-46 and immediately four questions come to mind, and answering them correctly takes a little doing. In fact, a number of respected commentators have missed the mark. As usual with the Bible, a careful reading combined with some logical deduction will go a long way toward bring the answers to light. The four questions are:

1. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs?

2. Who is being judged?

3. Who are "these brothers of mine?"

4. What are the consequences of the judgment?

We'll dissect the passage, address the questions as they appear, and summarize our findings at the end. First let's first clarify that this message from the Lord is technically not a parable, though it's often described as such. It does open with the Lord comparing Himself to a shepherd and the people of Earth to sheep and goats. But the rest of the account is the preview of an actual event, not a hypothetical story designed to illustrate a Biblical truth like parables are. Let's begin. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. b(Matt. 25:31-33)


The First Question Please
The first two questions come right off the bat. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs and who is being judged? The passage itself identifies the time as right after the 2nd Coming and that makes the location Earth. In Joel 3:2 the prophet speaks of a time when the Lord will restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem and gather the nations together in the Valley of Jehoshaphat to hold them accountable for the way they've treated His people. Joel's prophecy is a reference to the Sheep and Goat judgment. Since the word Jehoshaphat means "the Lord Judges" and no place by that name can be found on Earth, many believe he's making reference to the Kidron Valley which separates the Mount of Olives from the Temple, and that the name describes what He's there to do, not where He is.


Question Two
Since this judgment is clearly post 2nd Coming, the Church cannot be the answer to question 2, "Who is being judged?" No matter what your preference for the placement of the rapture in the End Times scenario, proponents of all the major positions agree it happens before the 2nd Coming. (I should mention that "Post-Tribbers" have a big problem here because if the rapture occurs just before the Lord's return, there won't be any "sheep" left for this judgment. They would all have just been taken in the rapture.) And since one of the things that happen in the rapture is the instantaneous perfection of believers, no judgment subsequent to that would be necessary.

No, the ones being judged here are those people of Earth who've survived the Great Tribulation. As we'll see, some of them have come to faith, but were too late for the rapture. And don't let the word nations fool you. It's only used to explain that this is a worldwide event. The Lord holds everyone personally accountable for his or her behavior.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (Matt. 25:34-40)


Question Three
The most obvious choice of identity for "these brothers of mine" is the Jewish people, from among whom the Messiah first came. Although all believers will be subject to persecution during the Great Tribulation, Jewish believers will be singled out for special attention in a final effort to eliminate them from the planet once and for all. And no doubt the 144,000 specially commissioned Messianic believers will head the enemy's list for extermination. (Rev. 7:1-8) You see, according to the prophet Hosea the Jewish people have to petition the Messiah to return. (Hosea 5:15-6:2) If Satan can wipe them all out before they can do that, he's won. That's why there've been such repeated efforts to destroy them over the last 2000 years. Racial discrimination of any kind is wrong, but anti-Semitism is Satanic.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt. 25:41-46)


And The Final Question
The way the standard for judgment is explained can also be a little misleading. "Whatever you did (not) do for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did (not) do for me." On first blush it appears that people are being rewarded for their good works, and punished for their failures. But the external actions He describes are simply tangible evidence of a faithful heart. The situation for Jewish believers in those days will become progressively worse and worse until they'll be dependent on the charitable acts of others for their very survival. And those who reach out to help them will do so at their extreme peril, since they'll be aiding and abetting a declared enemy every time they do. This is a crime punishable by death.

To make matters worse there'll be snitches everywhere. What a perilous time! "It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear; as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him." (Amos 5:19)

Only those whose hearts are fully dedicated to the Lord and know that He's on His way back for them will risk their own skins to help a stranger, especially when that stranger is an officially designated enemy. Only they will remember the Lord's answer to the question, "What is the greatest commandment?"

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind," He replied, "And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself." (Matt. 22:37-39)

In helping these strangers they're fulfilling both commandments, and the Lord, seeing their faith in action, will reward them accordingly. "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

Non-believers, having fallen for the deception of the antichrist and his false prophet, will have nothing to do with their leaders' enemies, and in fact many will be proud to act as volunteer spies, informing on them or even worse. They'll fulfill the Lord's own words, "A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God." (John 16:2) They'll be sent to the place of eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels. Interesting. The place was prepared for Satan. Men have to choose to go there.

The Sheep and Goat judgment then, is not a parable, but a clear warning to Tribulation Survivors that once the Lord returns, the time for accepting Him as their Savior will have ended and the consequences are severe and eternal.

But notice how even after it's too late they call Him Lord? Read Paul's words from Philippians 2:9-11. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. And in Zechariah 14:9, The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

When He returns there will be no doubt anywhere as to Who He is. Everyone from the highest place in Heaven to those in the lowest place under the Earth, which includes Satan's domain, will bow before Him, agreeing that He's their Lord.

But those He likened to the goats will have refused to accept Him as their Savior and will be sent away to eternal punishment. Having turned down His offer of pardon in favor of making their own way, they will now have eternity to contemplate the folly of their actions. They're the ones of whom He said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 7:21). For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)

"I have told you all this in advance," the Lord says, "So that you would know." The Sheep and Goat judgment stands as an unmistakably clear look into the future so that all who will may come and be forgiven. The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. (Rev 22:17) Better do it right now, while there's time.
.......................................................benny cool.gif
Stephen
Good post Benny and very significant to understand
beloved57
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 18 2008, 01:50 PM) *
Read Matt 25:31-46 and immediately four questions come to mind, and answering them correctly takes a little doing. In fact, a number of respected commentators have missed the mark. As usual with the Bible, a careful reading combined with some logical deduction will go a long way toward bring the answers to light. The four questions are:

1. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs?

2. Who is being judged?

3. Who are "these brothers of mine?"

4. What are the consequences of the judgment?

We'll dissect the passage, address the questions as they appear, and summarize our findings at the end. First let's first clarify that this message from the Lord is technically not a parable, though it's often described as such. It does open with the Lord comparing Himself to a shepherd and the people of Earth to sheep and goats. But the rest of the account is the preview of an actual event, not a hypothetical story designed to illustrate a Biblical truth like parables are. Let's begin. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. b(Matt. 25:31-33)


The First Question Please
The first two questions come right off the bat. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs and who is being judged? The passage itself identifies the time as right after the 2nd Coming and that makes the location Earth. In Joel 3:2 the prophet speaks of a time when the Lord will restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem and gather the nations together in the Valley of Jehoshaphat to hold them accountable for the way they've treated His people. Joel's prophecy is a reference to the Sheep and Goat judgment. Since the word Jehoshaphat means "the Lord Judges" and no place by that name can be found on Earth, many believe he's making reference to the Kidron Valley which separates the Mount of Olives from the Temple, and that the name describes what He's there to do, not where He is.


Question Two
Since this judgment is clearly post 2nd Coming, the Church cannot be the answer to question 2, "Who is being judged?" No matter what your preference for the placement of the rapture in the End Times scenario, proponents of all the major positions agree it happens before the 2nd Coming. (I should mention that "Post-Tribbers" have a big problem here because if the rapture occurs just before the Lord's return, there won't be any "sheep" left for this judgment. They would all have just been taken in the rapture.) And since one of the things that happen in the rapture is the instantaneous perfection of believers, no judgment subsequent to that would be necessary.

No, the ones being judged here are those people of Earth who've survived the Great Tribulation. As we'll see, some of them have come to faith, but were too late for the rapture. And don't let the word nations fool you. It's only used to explain that this is a worldwide event. The Lord holds everyone personally accountable for his or her behavior.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (Matt. 25:34-40)


Question Three
The most obvious choice of identity for "these brothers of mine" is the Jewish people, from among whom the Messiah first came. Although all believers will be subject to persecution during the Great Tribulation, Jewish believers will be singled out for special attention in a final effort to eliminate them from the planet once and for all. And no doubt the 144,000 specially commissioned Messianic believers will head the enemy's list for extermination. (Rev. 7:1-8) You see, according to the prophet Hosea the Jewish people have to petition the Messiah to return. (Hosea 5:15-6:2) If Satan can wipe them all out before they can do that, he's won. That's why there've been such repeated efforts to destroy them over the last 2000 years. Racial discrimination of any kind is wrong, but anti-Semitism is Satanic.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt. 25:41-46)


And The Final Question
The way the standard for judgment is explained can also be a little misleading. "Whatever you did (not) do for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did (not) do for me." On first blush it appears that people are being rewarded for their good works, and punished for their failures. But the external actions He describes are simply tangible evidence of a faithful heart. The situation for Jewish believers in those days will become progressively worse and worse until they'll be dependent on the charitable acts of others for their very survival. And those who reach out to help them will do so at their extreme peril, since they'll be aiding and abetting a declared enemy every time they do. This is a crime punishable by death.

To make matters worse there'll be snitches everywhere. What a perilous time! "It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear; as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him." (Amos 5:19)

Only those whose hearts are fully dedicated to the Lord and know that He's on His way back for them will risk their own skins to help a stranger, especially when that stranger is an officially designated enemy. Only they will remember the Lord's answer to the question, "What is the greatest commandment?"

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind," He replied, "And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself." (Matt. 22:37-39)

In helping these strangers they're fulfilling both commandments, and the Lord, seeing their faith in action, will reward them accordingly. "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

Non-believers, having fallen for the deception of the antichrist and his false prophet, will have nothing to do with their leaders' enemies, and in fact many will be proud to act as volunteer spies, informing on them or even worse. They'll fulfill the Lord's own words, "A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God." (John 16:2) They'll be sent to the place of eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels. Interesting. The place was prepared for Satan. Men have to choose to go there.

The Sheep and Goat judgment then, is not a parable, but a clear warning to Tribulation Survivors that once the Lord returns, the time for accepting Him as their Savior will have ended and the consequences are severe and eternal.

But notice how even after it's too late they call Him Lord? Read Paul's words from Philippians 2:9-11. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. And in Zechariah 14:9, The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

When He returns there will be no doubt anywhere as to Who He is. Everyone from the highest place in Heaven to those in the lowest place under the Earth, which includes Satan's domain, will bow before Him, agreeing that He's their Lord.

But those He likened to the goats will have refused to accept Him as their Savior and will be sent away to eternal punishment. Having turned down His offer of pardon in favor of making their own way, they will now have eternity to contemplate the folly of their actions. They're the ones of whom He said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 7:21). For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)

"I have told you all this in advance," the Lord says, "So that you would know." The Sheep and Goat judgment stands as an unmistakably clear look into the future so that all who will may come and be forgiven. The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. (Rev 22:17) Better do it right now, while there's time.
.......................................................benny cool.gif


False teaching..The sheep are made up of Jew and gentiles..jn 10:

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Stephen
The Israelites are the "elect" [all of the believing remnant of national Israel] in Matthew 29-31

These are the Lord's "brethren" and He speaks of them in Matthew 25:31-46 .... these are gathered first

One must understand that the Lord is an Israelite by His humanity and He is still the King and Messiah of the nation of Israel

Then the Lord will gather the balance of all of the survivors of the tribulation period for separation

Those found believing will enter His kingdom

Those who are found in unbelief will not
benny balerio
QUOTE (beloved57 @ Oct 18 2008, 02:21 PM) *
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 18 2008, 01:50 PM) *
Read Matt 25:31-46 and immediately four questions come to mind, and answering them correctly takes a little doing. In fact, a number of respected commentators have missed the mark. As usual with the Bible, a careful reading combined with some logical deduction will go a long way toward bring the answers to light. The four questions are:

1. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs?

2. Who is being judged?

3. Who are "these brothers of mine?"

4. What are the consequences of the judgment?

We'll dissect the passage, address the questions as they appear, and summarize our findings at the end. First let's first clarify that this message from the Lord is technically not a parable, though it's often described as such. It does open with the Lord comparing Himself to a shepherd and the people of Earth to sheep and goats. But the rest of the account is the preview of an actual event, not a hypothetical story designed to illustrate a Biblical truth like parables are. Let's begin. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. b(Matt. 25:31-33)


The First Question Please
The first two questions come right off the bat. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs and who is being judged? The passage itself identifies the time as right after the 2nd Coming and that makes the location Earth. In Joel 3:2 the prophet speaks of a time when the Lord will restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem and gather the nations together in the Valley of Jehoshaphat to hold them accountable for the way they've treated His people. Joel's prophecy is a reference to the Sheep and Goat judgment. Since the word Jehoshaphat means "the Lord Judges" and no place by that name can be found on Earth, many believe he's making reference to the Kidron Valley which separates the Mount of Olives from the Temple, and that the name describes what He's there to do, not where He is.


Question Two
Since this judgment is clearly post 2nd Coming, the Church cannot be the answer to question 2, "Who is being judged?" No matter what your preference for the placement of the rapture in the End Times scenario, proponents of all the major positions agree it happens before the 2nd Coming. (I should mention that "Post-Tribbers" have a big problem here because if the rapture occurs just before the Lord's return, there won't be any "sheep" left for this judgment. They would all have just been taken in the rapture.) And since one of the things that happen in the rapture is the instantaneous perfection of believers, no judgment subsequent to that would be necessary.

No, the ones being judged here are those people of Earth who've survived the Great Tribulation. As we'll see, some of them have come to faith, but were too late for the rapture. And don't let the word nations fool you. It's only used to explain that this is a worldwide event. The Lord holds everyone personally accountable for his or her behavior.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (Matt. 25:34-40)


Question Three
The most obvious choice of identity for "these brothers of mine" is the Jewish people, from among whom the Messiah first came. Although all believers will be subject to persecution during the Great Tribulation, Jewish believers will be singled out for special attention in a final effort to eliminate them from the planet once and for all. And no doubt the 144,000 specially commissioned Messianic believers will head the enemy's list for extermination. (Rev. 7:1-8) You see, according to the prophet Hosea the Jewish people have to petition the Messiah to return. (Hosea 5:15-6:2) If Satan can wipe them all out before they can do that, he's won. That's why there've been such repeated efforts to destroy them over the last 2000 years. Racial discrimination of any kind is wrong, but anti-Semitism is Satanic.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt. 25:41-46)


And The Final Question
The way the standard for judgment is explained can also be a little misleading. "Whatever you did (not) do for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did (not) do for me." On first blush it appears that people are being rewarded for their good works, and punished for their failures. But the external actions He describes are simply tangible evidence of a faithful heart. The situation for Jewish believers in those days will become progressively worse and worse until they'll be dependent on the charitable acts of others for their very survival. And those who reach out to help them will do so at their extreme peril, since they'll be aiding and abetting a declared enemy every time they do. This is a crime punishable by death.

To make matters worse there'll be snitches everywhere. What a perilous time! "It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear; as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him." (Amos 5:19)

Only those whose hearts are fully dedicated to the Lord and know that He's on His way back for them will risk their own skins to help a stranger, especially when that stranger is an officially designated enemy. Only they will remember the Lord's answer to the question, "What is the greatest commandment?"

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind," He replied, "And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself." (Matt. 22:37-39)

In helping these strangers they're fulfilling both commandments, and the Lord, seeing their faith in action, will reward them accordingly. "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

Non-believers, having fallen for the deception of the antichrist and his false prophet, will have nothing to do with their leaders' enemies, and in fact many will be proud to act as volunteer spies, informing on them or even worse. They'll fulfill the Lord's own words, "A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God." (John 16:2) They'll be sent to the place of eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels. Interesting. The place was prepared for Satan. Men have to choose to go there.

The Sheep and Goat judgment then, is not a parable, but a clear warning to Tribulation Survivors that once the Lord returns, the time for accepting Him as their Savior will have ended and the consequences are severe and eternal.

But notice how even after it's too late they call Him Lord? Read Paul's words from Philippians 2:9-11. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. And in Zechariah 14:9, The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

When He returns there will be no doubt anywhere as to Who He is. Everyone from the highest place in Heaven to those in the lowest place under the Earth, which includes Satan's domain, will bow before Him, agreeing that He's their Lord.

But those He likened to the goats will have refused to accept Him as their Savior and will be sent away to eternal punishment. Having turned down His offer of pardon in favor of making their own way, they will now have eternity to contemplate the folly of their actions. They're the ones of whom He said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 7:21). For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)

"I have told you all this in advance," the Lord says, "So that you would know." The Sheep and Goat judgment stands as an unmistakably clear look into the future so that all who will may come and be forgiven. The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. (Rev 22:17) Better do it right now, while there's time.
.......................................................benny cool.gif


False teaching..The sheep are made up of Jew and gentiles..jn 10:

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Read again!,......There is not a false teaching as you stated.
Who is it do you think are those who would risk their lives and help ctoth and shelter a jew in those days? laugh.gif
Surely not a jew helping a Jew is meant here.In those days jews will be considered the number 1 enemy besides christians.There will be those who have come to the Lord in their heart,but in those days,...their works do follow them.
In other words they are not the bride.
.........................................benny cool.gif
benny balerio
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 18 2008, 02:39 PM) *
QUOTE (beloved57 @ Oct 18 2008, 02:21 PM) *
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 18 2008, 01:50 PM) *
Read Matt 25:31-46 and immediately four questions come to mind, and answering them correctly takes a little doing. In fact, a number of respected commentators have missed the mark. As usual with the Bible, a careful reading combined with some logical deduction will go a long way toward bring the answers to light. The four questions are:

1. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs?

2. Who is being judged?

3. Who are "these brothers of mine?"

4. What are the consequences of the judgment?

We'll dissect the passage, address the questions as they appear, and summarize our findings at the end. First let's first clarify that this message from the Lord is technically not a parable, though it's often described as such. It does open with the Lord comparing Himself to a shepherd and the people of Earth to sheep and goats. But the rest of the account is the preview of an actual event, not a hypothetical story designed to illustrate a Biblical truth like parables are. Let's begin. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. b(Matt. 25:31-33)


The First Question Please
The first two questions come right off the bat. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs and who is being judged? The passage itself identifies the time as right after the 2nd Coming and that makes the location Earth. In Joel 3:2 the prophet speaks of a time when the Lord will restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem and gather the nations together in the Valley of Jehoshaphat to hold them accountable for the way they've treated His people. Joel's prophecy is a reference to the Sheep and Goat judgment. Since the word Jehoshaphat means "the Lord Judges" and no place by that name can be found on Earth, many believe he's making reference to the Kidron Valley which separates the Mount of Olives from the Temple, and that the name describes what He's there to do, not where He is.


Question Two
Since this judgment is clearly post 2nd Coming, the Church cannot be the answer to question 2, "Who is being judged?" No matter what your preference for the placement of the rapture in the End Times scenario, proponents of all the major positions agree it happens before the 2nd Coming. (I should mention that "Post-Tribbers" have a big problem here because if the rapture occurs just before the Lord's return, there won't be any "sheep" left for this judgment. They would all have just been taken in the rapture.) And since one of the things that happen in the rapture is the instantaneous perfection of believers, no judgment subsequent to that would be necessary.

No, the ones being judged here are those people of Earth who've survived the Great Tribulation. As we'll see, some of them have come to faith, but were too late for the rapture. And don't let the word nations fool you. It's only used to explain that this is a worldwide event. The Lord holds everyone personally accountable for his or her behavior.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (Matt. 25:34-40)


Question Three
The most obvious choice of identity for "these brothers of mine" is the Jewish people, from among whom the Messiah first came. Although all believers will be subject to persecution during the Great Tribulation, Jewish believers will be singled out for special attention in a final effort to eliminate them from the planet once and for all. And no doubt the 144,000 specially commissioned Messianic believers will head the enemy's list for extermination. (Rev. 7:1-8) You see, according to the prophet Hosea the Jewish people have to petition the Messiah to return. (Hosea 5:15-6:2) If Satan can wipe them all out before they can do that, he's won. That's why there've been such repeated efforts to destroy them over the last 2000 years. Racial discrimination of any kind is wrong, but anti-Semitism is Satanic.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt. 25:41-46)


And The Final Question
The way the standard for judgment is explained can also be a little misleading. "Whatever you did (not) do for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did (not) do for me." On first blush it appears that people are being rewarded for their good works, and punished for their failures. But the external actions He describes are simply tangible evidence of a faithful heart. The situation for Jewish believers in those days will become progressively worse and worse until they'll be dependent on the charitable acts of others for their very survival. And those who reach out to help them will do so at their extreme peril, since they'll be aiding and abetting a declared enemy every time they do. This is a crime punishable by death.

To make matters worse there'll be snitches everywhere. What a perilous time! "It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear; as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him." (Amos 5:19)

Only those whose hearts are fully dedicated to the Lord and know that He's on His way back for them will risk their own skins to help a stranger, especially when that stranger is an officially designated enemy. Only they will remember the Lord's answer to the question, "What is the greatest commandment?"

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind," He replied, "And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself." (Matt. 22:37-39)

In helping these strangers they're fulfilling both commandments, and the Lord, seeing their faith in action, will reward them accordingly. "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

Non-believers, having fallen for the deception of the antichrist and his false prophet, will have nothing to do with their leaders' enemies, and in fact many will be proud to act as volunteer spies, informing on them or even worse. They'll fulfill the Lord's own words, "A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God." (John 16:2) They'll be sent to the place of eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels. Interesting. The place was prepared for Satan. Men have to choose to go there.

The Sheep and Goat judgment then, is not a parable, but a clear warning to Tribulation Survivors that once the Lord returns, the time for accepting Him as their Savior will have ended and the consequences are severe and eternal.

But notice how even after it's too late they call Him Lord? Read Paul's words from Philippians 2:9-11. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. And in Zechariah 14:9, The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

When He returns there will be no doubt anywhere as to Who He is. Everyone from the highest place in Heaven to those in the lowest place under the Earth, which includes Satan's domain, will bow before Him, agreeing that He's their Lord.

But those He likened to the goats will have refused to accept Him as their Savior and will be sent away to eternal punishment. Having turned down His offer of pardon in favor of making their own way, they will now have eternity to contemplate the folly of their actions. They're the ones of whom He said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 7:21). For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)

"I have told you all this in advance," the Lord says, "So that you would know." The Sheep and Goat judgment stands as an unmistakably clear look into the future so that all who will may come and be forgiven. The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. (Rev 22:17) Better do it right now, while there's time.
.......................................................benny cool.gif


False teaching..The sheep are made up of Jew and gentiles..jn 10:

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Read again!,......There is not a false teaching as you stated.
Who is it do you think are those who would risk their lives and help ctoth and shelter a jew in those days? laugh.gif
Surely not a jew helping a Jew is meant here.In those days jews will be considered the number 1 enemy besides christians.There will be those who have come to the Lord in their heart,but in those days,...their works do follow them.
In other words they are not the bride.
.........................................benny cool.gif

SOooo! who repopulates the millenium???
Why do those who erroniously believe a post trib view repeatedly avoid this one topic???
Lets get it on ant to the bottom of this!!!

......................................................benny cool.gif
Stephen
You know why Benny

They have no answer because their view is flawed for this one significant reason and many others

I just put one to the test because of the person's insistence that a pre-trib believer "never" gives scriptural evidence of the pre-tribulation view

Not only does this person lie "that there is never an answer given", but they then refuse to answer when confronted with the same type of question related to their own view

I asked for the proof of a post-tribulational "rapture" which would leave no mortal human believers for populating the millennial kingdom

Guess what the answer was ..... "I don't have to answer you"

This is standard behavior for those who are pushing false doctrines and it reveals their motivation
benny balerio
QUOTE (Stephen @ Oct 19 2008, 06:58 PM) *
You know why Benny

They have no answer because their view is flawed for this one significant reason and many others

I just put one to the test because of the person's insistence that a pre-trib believer "never" gives scriptural evidence of the pre-tribulation view

Not only does this person lie "that there is never an answer given", but they then refuse to answer when confronted with the same type of question related to their own view

I asked for the proof of a post-tribulational "rapture" which would leave no mortal human believers for populating the millennial kingdom

Guess what the answer was ..... "I don't have to answer you"

This is standard behavior for those who are pushing false doctrines and it reveals their motivation

The topic...."Post Trib Flaws" is a long read,.....But what an eye opener.
Our Lord Jesus is coming........Oh! man,....He is really coming soon to catch us up!

......................................................benny cool.gif
SecondWind
Benny said,

QUOTE
The topic...."Post Trib Flaws" is a long read,.....But what an eye opener.
Our Lord Jesus is coming........Oh! man,....He is really coming soon to catch us up!


And what are you going to do when we are in the middle of tribulation and your still here and unprepared.

Deny that we are in tribulation? Or humble yourself and admit you guy's goofed!

The most you can say to me if there is a pretrib rapture is "I told you so".
When you find yourself still here and unprepared to endure the tribulation, and possibly in still in denial, it's up to you to repent and come out of that denial and admit a colossal blunder!

SW
Stephen
"And what are you going to do when we are in the middle of tribulation and your still here and unprepared"

>We will be watching you .... but not from the earth

Revelation
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

>Tell me .... just what have you done to prepare and how much more prepared are you than we are

>I want to know

>List the things of your prepardness so that I can evaluate them one by one

>I would also like specific scriptures from the Lord Himself that state specifically the demand for you to "prepare for your experience of His wrath and judgments of the tribulation period, and what He recommends for your preparation

>I would also like to know just how much you understand about the wiles of the Lord's judgment, His hour of trial against unbelief

>What are the things that you know and why do you think you will be able to stand [against the devastations of the Lord's wrath and Satan's Islamic beast from the abyss.... Abaddon-Apollyon]?

Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
benny balerio
QUOTE (SecondWind @ Oct 19 2008, 07:13 PM) *
Benny said,

QUOTE
The topic...."Post Trib Flaws" is a long read,.....But what an eye opener.
Our Lord Jesus is coming........Oh! man,....He is really coming soon to catch us up!


And what are you going to do when we are in the middle of tribulation and your still here and unprepared.

Deny that we are in tribulation? Or humble yourself and admit you guy's goofed!

The most you can say to me if there is a pretrib rapture is "I told you so".
When you find yourself still here and unprepared to endure the tribulation, and possibly in still in denial, it's up to you to repent and come out of that denial and admit a colossal blunder!

SW

You quote:And what are you going to do when we are in the middle of tribulation and your still here and unprepared.

Hey SW,...The only ones present in the middle of the tribulation are the trib saints who were left behind at a pre-trib rapture. dry.gif
A colossal blunder?.....you should look in the mirror and tell yourself that.
You want to talk about tribulation?
I got all the tribulation you can handle,...read and learn!

“Ye shall have Tribulation.” These ominous words of caution can often cause a lot of mental trepidation, and yet they came from the very lips of Jesus Christ himself. The very same voice that said, “come unto me and I will give you rest” verbalized these words that sear the very heart, and can even torture the mind. In Jesus narrative about the impending events surrounding his crucifixion, he began his discourse in John 14 with the assuring words, “let not your heart be troubled”, yet near the end of his discourse he conveys to his disciples that gut-wrenching remark about suffering tribulation. To whom exactly was Jesus talking and what did he mean by such austere words, “ye shall have tribulation”? Were those words intended solely for the disciples? Do they have significance for every Christian? These words tend to send chills down ones spine. No one wants to hear that they might have to endure hardship. But tribulation….the mere mention of this word conjures up images of unspeakable horror. Why did our Lord Jesus use such strongly worded language?

Historically, there has been a great deal of confusion about the word “Tribulation”. Many theologians and writers have manipulated this particular word usage to teach that the church would endure the Great Tribulation era. While it might seem unfortunate that Jesus used the “t-word” in this setting, if we simply dig into the study of the trials and tribulations of Christian life, and contrast them to the terrible “time of trouble” that Israel will experience, it should clear away any confusion. The English word “tribulation” is the Greek word “thlipsis” and means to endure pressure, affliction, anguish, persecution, trouble and heavy burdens. This tribulation experience can be rendered to be literal or figurative according to the specific contextual definition. The passage of scripture where Jesus used that terrible word is found in John 16:33 and reads thusly:

John 16:32-33 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

It is obvious very quickly when reading the opening line in this verse that a new age is about ready to dawn. Jesus makes it a point to emphasize that the hour, “his hour” had finally come. Early in his ministry, Jesus had alluded to the time of his hour. To his mother in John 2:4; Mine hour has not yet come. In John 4:21-25 Jesus informs the woman at the well that the hour is coming when mankind will worship God in spirit and in truth. (an allusion to the Church) In John 13:1 Jesus is contemplating his hour of departure from the world. (“Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.) Finally while praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus concludes the following: (John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee.)

In verse 32 Jesus is clearly alluding to the events of his apprehension, isolation and crucifixion. Then it seems that he peers off past his resurrection to the era of Israel's dispersion, and the ensuing Church Age. Undoubtedly Jesus could contemplate the prophecy of Daniel 9:26 that foretold that Israel's Messiah would be cut-off, or as Revelation 12:5 depicts, being caught up into Heaven. Or perhaps he could reflect upon Zechariah 13:7 and realized that the smiting of the Shepherd would result in the scattering of the sheep. Ye shall be scattered. Israel was scattered around the world, but the church has been sent out to the uttermost parts of the world to preach the Gospel, and bring home all lost sheep. Israel rejected its shepherd, but the Disciples/Church accepted the Shepherd.

So with these few words, Jesus conveys two messages. One is to Israel, and the second is to that new entity that Jesus established through his death, burial, resurrection and ascension into Heaven. The Disciples were members of the house of Israel, but were also the foundational-rocks (Peter) upon which Jesus built the church. Thus they were recipients of both messages. Both institutions were called of God to separate themselves from the world, and to make themselves a peculiar people unto the Lord. (Exodus 19:5, Deuteronomy 14:2,II Corinthians 6:17, I Peter 2:9, Titus 2:14) Both institutions were chosen of God for a Divine mission. Israel delivered the Shepherd, then they smote the Shepherd, and thus became a nation scattered like sheep. In turn, Jesus became the sacrificial Lamb of God and arose from the dead as the Good Shepherd charging the Disciples to feed his sheep. (John 21:15-17) Thus the Church was born.

Jesus knew that just as the world had hated Israel, it would hold animosity towards the church. For it is a matter of Biblical fact that there is a natural enmity between Satan and Israel and between Satan and the Church. To be chosen of God is to become a target of Satan's devious schemes. Israel has always endured “tribulation in the world” because she was a nation separated unto God. But her epic time of “Great Trouble” would soon be prophetically parodied in the events surrounding the desolation of her Temple and the city of Jerusalem, the “Great Tribulation” or “Time of Jacob's Trouble” still lay out in the future when Jesus would return unto her. Clearly, Jesus is turning his attention away from Israel and to the Disciples themselves and the institution of the Church that they would be instrumental in shepherding. He lovingly informed them that they, like Israel, and like “He” himself would suffer tribulation because of that natural enmity between the world and God.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Jesus came into the world to call out a people for his name (Acts 15:14), and the world hated Jesus and put him to death. Jesus said that the servant is not greater than the master, and therefore if the master should suffer persecution, all his servants can expect to endure persecution also. These tribulations come upon the sheep because the world knows not the Lord that sent the Shepherd.

The hour of Jesus departure had come. He informs the Disciples that he must go away, but that he will send the “comforter” unto them and he will guide them unto all truth and sustain them in their afflictions, persecutions, anguish, burdens and tribulations. Jesus came into the world and the world knew him not and received him not, but it was his mission to send his sheep into the world. He had earlier instructed them to go like “lambs among wolves” out into this wicked world. Christians can expect to be emulators of Christ on his way to the cross while in this world. Jesus said; you must take up the cross and follow him. But in conveying the reality that Christians shall suffer tribulation in the world, Jesus did not leave his followers without hope. Irregardless of the trials or persecutions a Christian may endure, no power of the world can decimate the reality of salvation and the assurance of being with Christ.

Romans 8:35-36 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

For the Christian, he is in essence a virtual spiritual alien in a sinful world, a world that would prefer that he would simply go away. The world is made uneasy by the mere presence of Christians. Indeed a Christian is an Ambassador in a foreign land, and because he cannot be assimilated into the common culture of the land of his visitation, he is viewed as abnormal and an annoying impediment to the course of the natural man. Israel has experienced this same type of “peculiarity persona complex” in the world. Therefore a Christian will suffer anguish, distress, persecution and tribulation while in that foreign land. But every Christian has the assurance that his Lord will be with him through all these afflictions as discovered later by the Disciples and conveyed by them to all generations of Christians that have followed.

1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

The aforementioned pleasures of this natural world do not appeal to the separated brethren of Christ. The joy of an abundant life living in the richness of a righteous relationship with Christ is the commodity that makes the soul of a Christian exult with himself over the fulfillment of his heart desire for love. The master of evil and hate, Satan, is repulsed and threatened by personal emissaries of God's love in his worldly domain.

1 Peter 5:8-10 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

But while the Christian is a temporary Ambassador in the world, he need not fear tribulation while in the world. Jesus has imparted the Holy Spirit (Comforter) to sustain us and enable us to overcome the adversary. It was expedient for us that as Christ departed he sent the comforter (John 16:7) so that Christians all around the world could overcome all tribulation.

I John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children (Christians), and have overcome them: (the world) because greater is he that is in you, than he (adversary) that is in the world.

But there is a vast difference between the “tribulation” experienced by the Saints and the “Great Tribulation” that shall come upon the world in the aftermath of the glorious trumpet sound for the recalling of God's Ambassadors to this world. Jesus alluded to a much different era of tribulation that shall befall the nation of Israel. Jesus utilized the Olivet Discourse to convey to the nation of Israel signs of his imminent return to Israel. These ominous signs were compared to the birth pangs of a woman ready to be delivered in childbirth. (Revelation 12:4-5) Jesus used the terminology, “Great Tribulation” to describe the epic world events that would ensue between him and the triad of leaders under the authority of the Great Red Dragon in the day that the Lord returns to do battle in Jerusalem. The term of Great Tribulation is comparable to Jeremiah's usage of the phrase, ”Jacobs Trouble” in the Old Testament. These verses give us a glimpse into the specific difference between the times of tribulation that a Christian Ambassador of Christ experiences while serving the Lord in this world, and the Great Tribulation that the nation of Israel is prophesied to endure prior to the return of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be “great tribulation”, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

So then, what is meant by Jesus usage of the phrase “Great Tribulation”? The Great Tribulation is to be distinguished from the general tribulation a believer faces in the world. It is also to be distinguished from God's specific wrath upon the unbelieving world at the end of the age. The “Great Tribulation” is a short (3.5 years) span of time in which the judgment of God will poured out upon the nations in the midst of Satan' all out war upon the nation of Israel. The entire seven-year long span of Israel's False Covenant with a False Christ is commonly called the Tribulation. It was the woman (Israel) that gave birth to the Messiah/Christ. The Church did not give birth to Christ, but rather Jesus founded the church and purchased her as his Bride and will therefore keep his Bride from the great hour his battle with the Antichrist.

As the Disciples came to Jesus on the Mount of Olives, they came inquiring about three things. (Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?) The three inquiries were, (1) When shall the Temple and Jerusalem be destroyed, (2) What are the signs of his imminent return to the world, and (3) When shall the world come to an end? Undoubtedly the Disciples thought that all three of these things would happen together, but their questions involve three different eras of time. Thus Jesus expounded in detail about all three eras, and gave signs for all three episodes, some of which serve as prophetic paradigms. But in verse 21 of Matthew 24 Jesus conveys that Israel will endure a time of Great Tribulation after the event known as the “Abomination of Desolation” transpires. Old Testament prophet Daniel had alluded to this event 600 years earlier.

Daniel 9:27 And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This particular act of “abomination” is recalled by the Apostle Paul in his writing to the church at Thessalonica.

II Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Lords Day) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So then the act of the “Abomination of Desolation” is a sign unto Israel that the recent “peace with security” covenant that she has entered into ( 3.5 years earlier) with the Coming Prince of this world is about to wreak terrible havoc upon her. Revelation 12:13 explains the intent of Satan and his False Christ.

Revelation 12:12-13 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Yes the Devil is coming down to the earth having great wrath, and intent on finally exterminating the nation of Israel. But the Lamb of God is also coming to the earth possessed with wrath. (Revelation 6:17 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?) The book of The Revelation from chapter 4 through chapter 20 is explicit in the detail of terrible days of the Great Tribulation! The seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials are all prophetically emblematic of the wrath of God and portray the conflagration that will surround the battle for Jerusalem. But to all those who repent and reject the authority of the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation there is hope.

Revelation 7:14 These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Earlier I made reference to the reality that we as Christians and members of the faithful bride of Christ serve the Lord as Ambassadors in this world. As we have witnessed, we are not welcome in this world because we seek to shepherd people that are in the world away from the reign of Satan and into the fold of the Lamb. Someday the King of Kings shall return to this world, and we are charged to issue that call to all man-kind. The Antichrist/Satan being the enemy of Jesus Christ however wants to include as many people as possible as warriors in his Supernatural coup-de-tat. In Luke chapter 14:31-33 Jesus told a parable of a king that sent his ambassadors unto a foreign enemy country to consult with that people for the possibilities of peace. Let there be no misunderstanding; Jesus is coming back to this world to wage war against Satan and all who follow him. But before the great General and King Jesus gathers together his army and embarks upon his providentially designed mission to conquer his enemies stronghold, he will issue a recall of his Ambassadors in this world. Typically, when the leader of a nation can see no other recourse with another nation but to gather his army and engage in warfare, he will issue a diplomatic recall of all of his foreign ambassadors to that particular country. Soon that ambassadorial recall will come forth in the form of a blast on a trumpet! Our tribulations here in this battleground will be over, and we shall all go to join the great throng that is gathering for the Lord's army!

That glorious thought beckons me to return my concluding thoughts back to our initial scriptural setting.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Ahh! Jesus ended his remarks concerning all of our tribulations in this world with the victorious statement; “I have overcome the World”! This proclamation became valid with Jesus fulfilled mission upon the cross at Calvary, and his subsequent resurrection. Victory in Jesus is more than just a song. We need ever troubled in our heart because Jesus is triumphant and is coming back for us, just as he stated in the opening of his discourse to the Disciples. (John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled) But beyond the fact that Jesus has overcome the world is the fact that Christians have also overcome the world because of the Christ's victory over the world. Furthermore, as a Christian enduring tribulation while in this world, we can be cheerful in our heart because of the blissful hope that we have in him. That Blessed Hope is expressed as the certainty that all our tribulations shall melt into joy at the appearing of Jesus.

Titus 2:11-13 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ!

1 Peter 1:3-7 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

As an ambassador for Jesus Christ in this alien world, I can count it as a badge of honor when tribulation comes upon me. For I am not of this world, just as my Savior was not of this world and therefore am certain to become a vehicle that will be visited by tribulation. But through the manifold trials and fiery persecutions, all we as Christians can take solace in the promise of the Lord that it will bring praise, honor and glory to Jesus Christ. All our tribulations will only serve to multiply the extreme joy of reigning with him when he appears to.

2 Timothy 2:10-12 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:

Therefore we shall see the glory which God the father has given unto Jesus Christ, for he has loved us from before the foundation of the world. We may weep and lament in this present world, but He shall turn our sorrows and tribulations into exceeding joy.



“Ye shall have Tribulation, but”
BE OF GOOD CHEER
Let not Your Heart be Troubled
“JESUS HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD”



................................................benny cool.gif
Joshleet
IT IS QUITE EASY TO SEE WHO REPOPULATES THE MILLIMEUL KINGDOM, If one has eyes to see, and wants to see, that is.... I for one have already explained who these poeple are, but you continue to ignore the Scripturally based explanation. Here it is once again. In Daniel 12:11-12, wew are given a time event Horizon, on How events are related to one another. A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation. In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.
QUOTE
Rev 14:6 And I saw another ANGEL fly in the midst ofheaven, HAVING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL TO PREACH UNTO THEM THAT DWELL ONTHE EARTH, AND TO EVERY NATION, AND KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, saying with a loud voice FEAR GOD AND GIVE GLORY TO HIM: FOR THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGEMENT IS COME....
[indent][/indent]Now, that wasn't so hard was it??? During the Hour of God's Judgement, when His wrath is poured out in this 45 day period, heaven itself will preach the Gospel, why, Because the harvest is taking place, and the church will be gone at this time! So this is no problem at all for a Post 70th week, pre-wrath believer as I am! How ya going to twist this explanation, like you haver the others I have given you?
benny balerio
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 19 2008, 08:01 PM) *
IT IS QUITE EASY TO SEE WHO REPOPULATES THE MILLIMEUL KINGDOM, If one has eyes to see, and wants to see, that is.... I for one have already explained who these poeple are, but you continue to ignore the Scripturally based explanation. Here it is once again. In Daniel 12:11-12, wew are given a time event Horizon, on How events are related to one another. A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation. In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.
QUOTE
Rev 14:6 And I saw another ANGEL fly in the midst ofheaven, HAVING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL TO PREACH UNTO THEM THAT DWELL ONTHE EARTH, AND TO EVERY NATION, AND KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, saying with a loud voice FEAR GOD AND GIVE GLORY TO HIM: FOR THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGEMENT IS COME....
[indent][/indent]Now, that wasn't so hard was it??? During the Hour of God's Judgement, when His wrath is poured out in this 45 day period, heaven itself will preach the Gospel, why, Because the harvest is taking place, and the church will be gone at this time! So this is no problem at all for a Post 70th week, pre-wrath believer as I am! How ya going to twist this explanation, like you haver the others I have given you?

Yes,I see your lips moving but it makes no sense.
You quote:..."IT IS QUITE EASY TO SEE WHO REPOPULATES THE MILLIMEUL KINGDOM, If one has eyes to see, and wants to see, that is.... I for one have already explained who these poeple are, but you continue to ignore the Scripturally based explanation. Here it is once again. In Daniel 12:11-12, wew are given a time event Horizon, on How events are related to one another. A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation. In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.

You quote:..." A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation"
benny reply:
This statement of yours is way way out there in left field.
your quote is not scriptural and most definately taken out of context.
45 days after the A.O.D.???....Who are you getting your false info from? I would like to know your source!

Again you quote:.."In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.

SOooo what are you going to do,....hide your gift under a bushel?
Your telling me that you can keep your mouth shut about Jesus 45 days after the A.O.D. has begun?
Hey,I cannot even keep my mouth shut now! laugh.gif

Come-on...join the pre-trib believe,...you will be happy that you did, and you will be looking for Jesus to come at any time and not reserving your faith until you see the anti-christ! wink.gif

....................................................benny cool.gifP.S....You still have not explained who repopulates the millenium. biggrin.gif
John Prewett
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 19 2008, 12:50 AM) *
Read Matt 25:31-46 and immediately four questions come to mind,
..............................................
No, the ones being judged here are those people of Earth
who've survived the Great Tribulation.
As we'll see, some of them have come to faith,
but were too late for the rapture.

And don't let the word nations fool you.

It's only used to explain that this is a worldwide event.



Oh, so it's not absolutely literal.

Jesus has been and WILL separate sheep from goats. and wheat from chaff.

And the Rev tells us what the final, end time separation will really consist of.


~Selah~
"post trib" "pre trib" Is that what it's all about in this day and age? Have we forgotten John 3:16? Is it not enough to just believe with faith and wait on the Lord? Out of everything within the Scriptures, I feel that is the voice crying out the most..be patient and wait

Frankly, I just don't care anymore whether I'm raptured before, during or after a 7 year triblulation, I just want to be with Yahshua. And I feel like this existance in this secular world is a tribulation and steadily grows in power with more emnity against God's Word as the "believers" gather in some corner arguing and debating whose going to be first into the kingdom, rather than defending the Word and those attacked for His honour...Is that what the Gospel is about; whose first, whose last, whose better?? Can anyone ask themselves that and answer honestly? And from what I've seen, for the most part is that generally the people who support rapture pre trib are quite rude...and down right nasty at times, and rarely provide Scripture as a discussion. Commentaries, articles and opinions are dandy but not sufficient.
Only the Bible is infallible....Remember? The Word of God does and therefore *should* be your final "say so"...He is Alpha and Omega.

John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

I hope that we can all be found worthy to escape all the terrors in this world of darkness; but truly there is only one way to escape...

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

~
Joshleet
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 19 2008, 07:22 PM) *
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 19 2008, 08:01 PM) *
IT IS QUITE EASY TO SEE WHO REPOPULATES THE MILLIMEUL KINGDOM, If one has eyes to see, and wants to see, that is.... I for one have already explained who these poeple are, but you continue to ignore the Scripturally based explanation. Here it is once again. In Daniel 12:11-12, wew are given a time event Horizon, on How events are related to one another. A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation. In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.
QUOTE
Rev 14:6 And I saw another ANGEL fly in the midst ofheaven, HAVING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL TO PREACH UNTO THEM THAT DWELL ONTHE EARTH, AND TO EVERY NATION, AND KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, saying with a loud voice FEAR GOD AND GIVE GLORY TO HIM: FOR THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGEMENT IS COME....
[/indent]Now, that wasn't so hard was it??? During the Hour of God's Judgement, when His wrath is poured out in this 45 day period, heaven itself will preach the Gospel, why, Because the harvest is taking place, and the church will be gone at this time! So this is no problem at all for a Post 70th week, pre-wrath believer as I am! How ya going to twist this explanation, like you haver the others I have given you?

Yes,I see your lips moving but it makes no sense.
You quote:..."IT IS QUITE EASY TO SEE WHO REPOPULATES THE MILLIMEUL KINGDOM, If one has eyes to see, and wants to see, that is.... I for one have already explained who these poeple are, but you continue to ignore the Scripturally based explanation. Here it is once again. In Daniel 12:11-12, wew are given a time event Horizon, on How events are related to one another. A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation. In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.

You quote:..." A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation"
benny reply:
This statement of yours is way way out there in left field.
your quote is not scriptural and most definately taken out of context.
45 days after the A.O.D.???....Who are you getting your false info from? I would like to know your source!

Again you quote:.."In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.

SOooo what are you going to do,....hide your gift under a bushel?
Your telling me that you can keep your mouth shut about Jesus 45 days after the A.O.D. has begun?
Hey,I cannot even keep my mouth shut now! laugh.gif

Come-on...join the pre-trib believe,...you will be happy that you did, and you will be looking for Jesus to come at any time and not reserving your faith until you see the anti-christ! wink.gif

....................................................benny cool.gifP.S....You still have not explained who repopulates the millenium. biggrin.gif

I know you must deny the Word of God, especially Daniel 12:11-12 if your doctrine is going to hold up. How sad. I get my info from ther Pure word of God, discerned to me by the Holy Spirit with a Mind that isn't cluttered with preconcieved ideas from the teachings and doctrines on Man. All I ever see you do, is quote other teaching of men.
I find it simply amazing that I can Provide scripture to establish what I am stating, yet you continue to say it is a false teaching. Who are you truly Listening to.
I will not be hiding anything under a BUSHEL, for the time you speak of, the Harvest will have already occured, thus the reason why we witness an angel preaching the Gospel at this point in time. Try Reading Daniel 12 Again. The restrainer will be removed, the real identity of the one Claiming to be the returned Messiah , will be made known, and the Lords wrath will be poured out immediately after the tribulation of those Days, Just as Matthew states. [indent]"come on, Join the Pre trib believers, you would be happy that you did... I will be Looking for jesus to come at any time, and NOT RESERVING MY FAITH TO FACE ANTICHRIST????? Nice statement, But I wonder who would want me to follow this advice? Jesus Or Satan??
QUOTE
Oh, one other thing, I am still waiting for a reply from you with an explanation as to why those confused souls under the altar in the fifth seal are asking How Long will it be for the Lord to Judge those that dwell on the Earth. According to the pre-trib view, God"S Judgment has already started in the first seal. Have ya been able to get up under the throne with them, and explain to them that God's Judgment HAS already started???? Oh, and one other thing, you better tell Heaven that you have "rearranged a few events, because these souls are also told, that it would be a "little season Before God's Judgment falls, But don't tell no one in Heaven this. They don't know God's Judgement has already Begun!!
benny balerio
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 19 2008, 11:14 PM) *
QUOTE (benny balerio @ Oct 19 2008, 07:22 PM) *
QUOTE (Joshleet @ Oct 19 2008, 08:01 PM) *
IT IS QUITE EASY TO SEE WHO REPOPULATES THE MILLIMEUL KINGDOM, If one has eyes to see, and wants to see, that is.... I for one have already explained who these poeple are, but you continue to ignore the Scripturally based explanation. Here it is once again. In Daniel 12:11-12, wew are given a time event Horizon, on How events are related to one another. A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation. In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.
QUOTE
Rev 14:6 And I saw another ANGEL fly in the midst ofheaven, HAVING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL TO PREACH UNTO THEM THAT DWELL ONTHE EARTH, AND TO EVERY NATION, AND KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, saying with a loud voice FEAR GOD AND GIVE GLORY TO HIM: FOR THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGEMENT IS COME....
[/indent]Now, that wasn't so hard was it??? During the Hour of God's Judgement, when His wrath is poured out in this 45 day period, heaven itself will preach the Gospel, why, Because the harvest is taking place, and the church will be gone at this time! So this is no problem at all for a Post 70th week, pre-wrath believer as I am! How ya going to twist this explanation, like you haver the others I have given you?

Yes,I see your lips moving but it makes no sense.
You quote:..."IT IS QUITE EASY TO SEE WHO REPOPULATES THE MILLIMEUL KINGDOM, If one has eyes to see, and wants to see, that is.... I for one have already explained who these poeple are, but you continue to ignore the Scripturally based explanation. Here it is once again. In Daniel 12:11-12, wew are given a time event Horizon, on How events are related to one another. A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation. In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.

You quote:..." A special blessing is Spoke on those who make it 45 days past the abomination of desolation"
benny reply:
This statement of yours is way way out there in left field.
your quote is not scriptural and most definately taken out of context.
45 days after the A.O.D.???....Who are you getting your false info from? I would like to know your source!

Again you quote:.."In this 45 day period, the Gospel will still be preached, However, not by the Church, not by the 144,000 or the two witnesses.

SOooo what are you going to do,....hide your gift under a bushel?
Your telling me that you can keep your mouth shut about Jesus 45 days after the A.O.D. has begun?
Hey,I cannot even keep my mouth shut now! laugh.gif

Come-on...join the pre-trib believe,...you will be happy that you did, and you will be looking for Jesus to come at any time and not reserving your faith until you see the anti-christ! wink.gif

....................................................benny cool.gifP.S....You still have not explained who repopulates the millenium. biggrin.gif

I know you must deny the Word of God, especially Daniel 12:11-12 if your doctrine is going to hold up. How sad. I get my info from ther Pure word of God, discerned to me by the Holy Spirit with a Mind that isn't cluttered with preconcieved ideas from the teachings and doctrines on Man. All I ever see you do, is quote other teaching of men.
I find it simply amazing that I can Provide scripture to establish what I am stating, yet you continue to say it is a false teaching. Who are you truly Listening to.
I will not be hiding anything under a BUSHEL, for the time you speak of, the Harvest will have already occured, thus the reason why we witness an angel preaching the Gospel at this point in time. Try Reading Daniel 12 Again. The restrainer will be removed, the real identity of the one Claiming to be the returned Messiah , will be made known, and the Lords wrath will be poured out immediately after the tribulation of those Days, Just as Matthew states. [indent]"come on, Join the Pre trib believers, you would be happy that you did... I will be Looking for jesus to come at any time, and NOT RESERVING MY FAITH TO FACE ANTICHRIST????? Nice statement, But I wonder who would want me to follow this advice? Jesus Or Satan??
QUOTE
Oh, one other thing, I am still waiting for a reply from you with an explanation as to why those confused souls under the altar in the fifth seal are asking How Long will it be for the Lord to Judge those that dwell on the Earth. According to the pre-trib view, God"S Judgment has already started in the first seal. Have ya been able to get up under the throne with them, and explain to them that God's Judgment HAS already started???? Oh, and one other thing, you better tell Heaven that you have "rearranged a few events, because these souls are also told, that it would be a "little season Before God's Judgment falls, But don't tell no one in Heaven this. They don't know God's Judgement has already Begun!!

You talk about those under the altar.

In revelation 5 we see the redeemed Bride in heaven before the first seal was ever opened.Notice it never mentions that this group had come out of great tribulation.The reason is that they were raptured prior to Daniels 70th week.
In revelation 7;13....It says:..."Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes,and where did they come from?"

Here we have a scene where the bride earlier had already been raptured and participated at the judgement seat of Jesus Christ. Then later another group of people begin to show up and the elder ask who they are?

There is a clue that these two groups are not the same group.
The bride today,has been instructed by the Lord, that we are to pray for our enemies.
But in revelation 6;10 we see a group crying with a loud voice, saying, How long Holy and True, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

There is a time gap between revelation 5 and revelation 6;10
At the beginning of Daniels 70th week, the anti-christ has "NOT YET" been given power and authority to slay and overcome the trib saints.
In the first half of Daniels 70th week even the two wittnesses who qualify as saints are not killed until they have finished their testimony at the end of the first half of Daniels 70th week.
Even the jews in Israel are in the first half, are not in fear of the anti-christ, in the first half, because for the moment,...they still think that he is their messiah and are even going to the third temple daily,sacrificing animals and worshipping.
But at the midpoint of Daniels 70th week,...power and authority is granted the anti-christ to slay and overcome the trib saints and even national Israel realise that they were deceived when the anti-christ sits in the third temple and proclaims himself god,...and of course, the Jews flee for their lives and christians are now in hiding because the mark of the beast will at that time become mandatory and will be killed for not worshipping the beast.

Also,....Joshleet, you have not given a clear cut explanation as to who repopulates the millenium.Truth is,...you answer is very evasive.
Maybe in your strange way of thinking, you think you have explained, but truely you made no sense at all, and I seriously doubt that not even one post tribber would be willing to side with your statements.

..........................................................benny cool.gif
MMarc

All I know is the stars have already fallen to earth so has Satan.

For eight years I have been discerning angels walk the earth, the good the bad and the ugly.

The tribulation of the saints is already at work in the world.

Sadly those who believe in a physical rapture refuse to acknowledge what is going on in the world
because it doesn't fit in their interpretation of scriptures.

Tribulation is actually going on you don't need a degree in theology to see the martyredom of our bros and sis' in Christ.

I really don't know what people want to see in the world to know the trib. is going on.
Isn't there enough Christian blood being shed?
Isn't there enough natural disasters, pestilence, famine, wars going on?

What sign do people need to see to prove that the trib is already here?


Stephen
You have a very wierd and unrealistic view of the current conditions on the earth and what the scriptures give that will take place during the time of the end ...... which is still pending
benny balerio
QUOTE (MMarc @ Oct 20 2008, 08:56 AM) *
All I know is the stars have already fallen to earth so has Satan.

For eight years I have been discerning angels walk the earth, the good the bad and the ugly.

The tribulation of the saints is already at work in the world.

Sadly those who believe in a physical rapture refuse to acknowledge what is going on in the world
because it doesn't fit in their interpretation of scriptures.

Tribulation is actually going on you don't need a degree in theology to see the martyredom of our bros and sis' in Christ.

I really don't know what people want to see in the world to know the trib. is going on.
Isn't there enough Christian blood being shed?
Isn't there enough natural disasters, pestilence, famine, wars going on?

What sign do people need to see to prove that the trib is already here?

Has the 7 year covenant between the anti-christ and Isreal been confirmed?
Of course not!
Has a third temple been built?
Of course not!
Has one third of the global population been killed?
of course not!
Has a third of the springs and rivers been poisoned by a falling star and many men died from drinking the water?
Of course not!
Has the abomination of desolation started?
of course not!
Have national Israel ran for their lives at the A.O.D.?
of course not!
Has Isaiah 17;1 happened yet?
of course not!
Has ezekial 38 happened yet? of course not!
Are all the jews returned to Israel?
of course not.
Has the great tribulation begun?
of course not!
has the rapture happened yet?
of course not!

You are messing up big time when you try to spiritulize prophetic scriptures.
Try a literal interpretation.

Now about the word tribulation:
“Ye shall have Tribulation.” These ominous words of caution can often cause a lot of mental trepidation, and yet they came from the very lips of Jesus Christ himself. The very same voice that said, “come unto me and I will give you rest” verbalized these words that sear the very heart, and can even torture the mind. In Jesus narrative about the impending events surrounding his crucifixion, he began his discourse in John 14 with the assuring words, “let not your heart be troubled”, yet near the end of his discourse he conveys to his disciples that gut-wrenching remark about suffering tribulation. To whom exactly was Jesus talking and what did he mean by such austere words, “ye shall have tribulation”? Were those words intended solely for the disciples? Do they have significance for every Christian? These words tend to send chills down ones spine. No one wants to hear that they might have to endure hardship. But tribulation….the mere mention of this word conjures up images of unspeakable horror. Why did our Lord Jesus use such strongly worded language?

Historically, there has been a great deal of confusion about the word “Tribulation”. Many theologians and writers have manipulated this particular word usage to teach that the church would endure the Great Tribulation era. While it might seem unfortunate that Jesus used the “t-word” in this setting, if we simply dig into the study of the trials and tribulations of Christian life, and contrast them to the terrible “time of trouble” that Israel will experience, it should clear away any confusion. The English word “tribulation” is the Greek word “thlipsis” and means to endure pressure, affliction, anguish, persecution, trouble and heavy burdens. This tribulation experience can be rendered to be literal or figurative according to the specific contextual definition. The passage of scripture where Jesus used that terrible word is found in John 16:33 and reads thusly:

John 16:32-33 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

It is obvious very quickly when reading the opening line in this verse that a new age is about ready to dawn. Jesus makes it a point to emphasize that the hour, “his hour” had finally come. Early in his ministry, Jesus had alluded to the time of his hour. To his mother in John 2:4; Mine hour has not yet come. In John 4:21-25 Jesus informs the woman at the well that the hour is coming when mankind will worship God in spirit and in truth. (an allusion to the Church) In John 13:1 Jesus is contemplating his hour of departure from the world. (“Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.) Finally while praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus concludes the following: (John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee.)

In verse 32 Jesus is clearly alluding to the events of his apprehension, isolation and crucifixion. Then it seems that he peers off past his resurrection to the era of Israel's dispersion, and the ensuing Church Age. Undoubtedly Jesus could contemplate the prophecy of Daniel 9:26 that foretold that Israel's Messiah would be cut-off, or as Revelation 12:5 depicts, being caught up into Heaven. Or perhaps he could reflect upon Zechariah 13:7 and realized that the smiting of the Shepherd would result in the scattering of the sheep. Ye shall be scattered. Israel was scattered around the world, but the church has been sent out to the uttermost parts of the world to preach the Gospel, and bring home all lost sheep. Israel rejected its shepherd, but the Disciples/Church accepted the Shepherd.

So with these few words, Jesus conveys two messages. One is to Israel, and the second is to that new entity that Jesus established through his death, burial, resurrection and ascension into Heaven. The Disciples were members of the house of Israel, but were also the foundational-rocks (Peter) upon which Jesus built the church. Thus they were recipients of both messages. Both institutions were called of God to separate themselves from the world, and to make themselves a peculiar people unto the Lord. (Exodus 19:5, Deuteronomy 14:2,II Corinthians 6:17, I Peter 2:9, Titus 2:14) Both institutions were chosen of God for a Divine mission. Israel delivered the Shepherd, then they smote the Shepherd, and thus became a nation scattered like sheep. In turn, Jesus became the sacrificial Lamb of God and arose from the dead as the Good Shepherd charging the Disciples to feed his sheep. (John 21:15-17) Thus the Church was born.

Jesus knew that just as the world had hated Israel, it would hold animosity towards the church. For it is a matter of Biblical fact that there is a natural enmity between Satan and Israel and between Satan and the Church. To be chosen of God is to become a target of Satan's devious schemes. Israel has always endured “tribulation in the world” because she was a nation separated unto God. But her epic time of “Great Trouble” would soon be prophetically parodied in the events surrounding the desolation of her Temple and the city of Jerusalem, the “Great Tribulation” or “Time of Jacob's Trouble” still lay out in the future when Jesus would return unto her. Clearly, Jesus is turning his attention away from Israel and to the Disciples themselves and the institution of the Church that they would be instrumental in shepherding. He lovingly informed them that they, like Israel, and like “He” himself would suffer tribulation because of that natural enmity between the world and God.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Jesus came into the world to call out a people for his name (Acts 15:14), and the world hated Jesus and put him to death. Jesus said that the servant is not greater than the master, and therefore if the master should suffer persecution, all his servants can expect to endure persecution also. These tribulations come upon the sheep because the world knows not the Lord that sent the Shepherd.

The hour of Jesus departure had come. He informs the Disciples that he must go away, but that he will send the “comforter” unto them and he will guide them unto all truth and sustain them in their afflictions, persecutions, anguish, burdens and tribulations. Jesus came into the world and the world knew him not and received him not, but it was his mission to send his sheep into the world. He had earlier instructed them to go like “lambs among wolves” out into this wicked world. Christians can expect to be emulators of Christ on his way to the cross while in this world. Jesus said; you must take up the cross and follow him. But in conveying the reality that Christians shall suffer tribulation in the world, Jesus did not leave his followers without hope. Irregardless of the trials or persecutions a Christian may endure, no power of the world can decimate the reality of salvation and the assurance of being with Christ.

Romans 8:35-36 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

For the Christian, he is in essence a virtual spiritual alien in a sinful world, a world that would prefer that he would simply go away. The world is made uneasy by the mere presence of Christians. Indeed a Christian is an Ambassador in a foreign land, and because he cannot be assimilated into the common culture of the land of his visitation, he is viewed as abnormal and an annoying impediment to the course of the natural man. Israel has experienced this same type of “peculiarity persona complex” in the world. Therefore a Christian will suffer anguish, distress, persecution and tribulation while in that foreign land. But every Christian has the assurance that his Lord will be with him through all these afflictions as discovered later by the Disciples and conveyed by them to all generations of Christians that have followed.

1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

The aforementioned pleasures of this natural world do not appeal to the separated brethren of Christ. The joy of an abundant life living in the richness of a righteous relationship with Christ is the commodity that makes the soul of a Christian exult with himself over the fulfillment of his heart desire for love. The master of evil and hate, Satan, is repulsed and threatened by personal emissaries of God's love in his worldly domain.

1 Peter 5:8-10 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

But while the Christian is a temporary Ambassador in the world, he need not fear tribulation while in the world. Jesus has imparted the Holy Spirit (Comforter) to sustain us and enable us to overcome the adversary. It was expedient for us that as Christ departed he sent the comforter (John 16:7) so that Christians all around the world could overcome all tribulation.

I John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children (Christians), and have overcome them: (the world) because greater is he that is in you, than he (adversary) that is in the world.

But there is a vast difference between the “tribulation” experienced by the Saints and the “Great Tribulation” that shall come upon the world in the aftermath of the glorious trumpet sound for the recalling of God's Ambassadors to this world. Jesus alluded to a much different era of tribulation that shall befall the nation of Israel. Jesus utilized the Olivet Discourse to convey to the nation of Israel signs of his imminent return to Israel. These ominous signs were compared to the birth pangs of a woman ready to be delivered in childbirth. (Revelation 12:4-5) Jesus used the terminology, “Great Tribulation” to describe the epic world events that would ensue between him and the triad of leaders under the authority of the Great Red Dragon in the day that the Lord returns to do battle in Jerusalem. The term of Great Tribulation is comparable to Jeremiah's usage of the phrase, ”Jacobs Trouble” in the Old Testament. These verses give us a glimpse into the specific difference between the times of tribulation that a Christian Ambassador of Christ experiences while serving the Lord in this world, and the Great Tribulation that the nation of Israel is prophesied to endure prior to the return of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be “great tribulation”, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

So then, what is meant by Jesus usage of the phrase “Great Tribulation”? The Great Tribulation is to be distinguished from the general tribulation a believer faces in the world. It is also to be distinguished from God's specific wrath upon the unbelieving world at the end of the age. The “Great Tribulation” is a short (3.5 years) span of time in which the judgment of God will poured out upon the nations in the midst of Satan' all out war upon the nation of Israel. The entire seven-year long span of Israel's False Covenant with a False Christ is commonly called the Tribulation. It was the woman (Israel) that gave birth to the Messiah/Christ. The Church did not give birth to Christ, but rather Jesus founded the church and purchased her as his Bride and will therefore keep his Bride from the great hour his battle with the Antichrist.

As the Disciples came to Jesus on the Mount of Olives, they came inquiring about three things. (Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?) The three inquiries were, (1) When shall the Temple and Jerusalem be destroyed, (2) What are the signs of his imminent return to the world, and (3) When shall the world come to an end? Undoubtedly the Disciples thought that all three of these things would happen together, but their questions involve three different eras of time. Thus Jesus expounded in detail about all three eras, and gave signs for all three episodes, some of which serve as prophetic paradigms. But in verse 21 of Matthew 24 Jesus conveys that Israel will endure a time of Great Tribulation after the event known as the “Abomination of Desolation” transpires. Old Testament prophet Daniel had alluded to this event 600 years earlier.

Daniel 9:27 And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This particular act of “abomination” is recalled by the Apostle Paul in his writing to the church at Thessalonica.

II Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Lords Day) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So then the act of the “Abomination of Desolation” is a sign unto Israel that the recent “peace with security” covenant that she has entered into ( 3.5 years earlier) with the Coming Prince of this world is about to wreak terrible havoc upon her. Revelation 12:13 explains the intent of Satan and his False Christ.

Revelation 12:12-13 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Yes the Devil is coming down to the earth having great wrath, and intent on finally exterminating the nation of Israel. But the Lamb of God is also coming to the earth possessed with wrath. (Revelation 6:17 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?) The book of The Revelation from chapter 4 through chapter 20 is explicit in the detail of terrible days of the Great Tribulation! The seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials are all prophetically emblematic of the wrath of God and portray the conflagration that will surround the battle for Jerusalem. But to all those who repent and reject the authority of the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation there is hope.

Revelation 7:14 These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and