With the sounding of the first four trumpets (Revelation 8), John describes the destruction of 1/3 of the planet. (This I believe is the destruction of Babylon) This destruction will put so much debris into the atmosphere that it will block out the sun, fulfilling the passage:

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

This event will be so devastating that the earth will begin to wobble “"like a drunkard"....

Isaiah 24: 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

....and be knocked out of orbit ("removed out of her place").

Isaiah 13: 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

This destruction will be so devastating that all life on earth will be in jeopardy, prompting Christ’s advent.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Basically you can kiss 1/3 if the planet goodbye just 3 ½ days before the Day of the LORD.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
http://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000

I believe the portion of the 1/3rd is a signifcant part of the great city that will be destroyed in one hour .... specifically in the costal regions where most of the population concentrations will be

Enough to do tremendous massive damage where the great city is located for destroying this entity and it will not rise [recover] again

Much damage will be done to a greater part of the earth during the tribulation period in many ways, but the earth itself will remain and the Lord will recondition it for His millennial kingdom

Here is something to dwell on... Granted the first four trumpets bring on the destruction of 1/3's. Do a comparison.. Compare the destruction the first four trumpets bring on, and the vials of the wrath of God.

[/indent]There is one commonality, and two major differences between them. The trumpets sound like, and bring on the very same destruction the vials of the wrath of God does, only Lesser in scope 1/3 instead of all. The second major difference is, the first four trumpets (actually the first six trumpets) are all blown BEFORE THE DECRIPTION OF THE 42 MONTH REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH. The vials of the wrath of God on the other hand, occur AFTER THE DESCRIPTION OF THE 42 MONTH REIGN OF THE FALSE MESSIAH.

The first four trumpets will be accepted as the vials of the wrath of God by many, Setting the stage for the FALSE MESSIAH, NOT THE REAL![indent]

The blood red moon event you quoted in Joel 2:31, actually occurs in the sixth seal. This does occur BEFORE THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COMES. This event however, mustn't be confused with Joel 3:12-15, where we witness BOTH the sun and moon darkened, (not turned blood red) this event occurs in REv 14, at the time of the Harvest. These are two seperate events. One before the day of Lord, ( but Accepted AS the day of the Lord..the "strong delusion"), the other at the end of the age, at the Harvest.

Greetings in the name of Jesus:


Nice post: and I do believe you are right.

You should compare this to Ezekiel 38&39. Where 5/6 of Meshech and tubal (Russia) will be burned with " fire hail and rain"
. where it shall war with A Nation of Unwalled villages ( U.S.). Going Up over the north pole to battle. Strategic Nuclear war will destroy 1/3 of the Earths land.

Nice post.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

I do not believe that Ezekile 39, 39 is about Russia at all, but the little horn and his Middle Eastern followers

The fire that the Lord will send upon the invaders and occupiers of Israel [the kingdom of the beast in the Middle East] is different and this will occur during the battle of Armageddon

Zechariah has the same view as Ezekiel in chapter 14

So does Revelation 16

This action will trake place at the end of the tribulation period and it is not the same as the burning of MBG's great city which will take place at the beginning of the period

The Lord will re-visit the land mass where the great stood and will break it into 3rds during the battle of Armageddon with the greatest quake known to mankind

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear stephen: Based upon KJV.

Of course again you may believe as you so choose, but the terms of Meshech and tubal, are derivatives of modern day, Words of Russia. according to Hailey's bible handbook of Archaic word derivations in the Bible, and supported in Archaeology.

Mesheck is the root word of Moscow, which Muscovy comes from, and the word Tubal, is from where Tubolsk, City name is derived, not to mention, the River Tubal, named, even so, unto this day. The two major Cities of russia divided by Ural mountains. also Togarmah of the North quarters, is archaic term for land of; Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. That is pretty much an archaeology given truth, as is tubal, and Meshech.

May is ask where you are deriving your archaeology derivations? Is it true archaeology or from, denominational concepts?

It would be nice, if we did communicate, and my questions did receive actual answers.

But I can show archaeology foundation and root derivations, in Science, that supports my assertion that Meshech and tubal, are Russian derived root words.

I would also submit, that the allies of Russia today are Persia, Libya, and Ethiopia. as it is so written. Which use the same names even today.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

"Of course again you may believe as you so choose, but the terms of Meshech and tubal, are derivatives of modern day, Words of Russia. according to Hailey's bible handbook of Archaic word derivations in the Bible, and supported in Archaeology"

This is a speculative idea held by many well respected Bible teachers, but the Bible does not support it

I understand the concept completely, but do not believe it is correct for many reasons

The visions of the Bible prophets are all focused upon the Middle East and Israel for the time of the end and the scope is limited to that significant part of the world

I will post the evidence from my website in order to to save time. There is some repetiton in the following passages because there are three different sections of my site presented:



God addresses "Gog" in Ezekiel 38 and 39 with respect to Israel's return to the Land of Israel at the end of this current age.

Careful study of Ezekiel's vision and other related Scriptures are necessary in order to identify Gog and his involvement over a very broad time frame.

This includes his connection to both the spirit world, human kings, and the human organizations contained within the dominions of the human kings.

There are some identifiers and other links to be considered which will lead to the realization that Gog is not human.

This entity has angelic characteristics which can be determined by studying the identifiers and the links.

Gog is identified by other Biblical prophets as being connected with different human rulers, in different geographical areas, at different times, over periods which exceed the limitations of human life span. [Ezekiel 38:17]

God's angelic creatures do not age and are the same as they were at their creation. This angelic trait allows for perpetual involvement over vast time periods. [Ezekiel 28:11-19] [Revelation 20:1-3]

God notes that Gog is a subject of many of the prophets, yet he is referred to as "Gog" in only one other place in Scripture in the Book of Revelation. This must mean that he is identified by different profiles. [Ezekiel 38:17]

All other references refer to him or his agents by some other name or title. For example, Daniel sees the prince that is to come (Abaddon) and the little horn (human king). Both of these entities will be empowered and directed by Satan.

Gog is described as the chief prince, in this case, of Mesheck and Tubal. The term "prince" is usually applied to an angelic ruler who rules over, influences, and operates through human kings (horns). [Ezekiel 38:2]

The term "chief prince" indicates that this prince is the ruler or leader of others of the same kind. I do not believe the Hebrew word "rosh" used for chief is in reference to Russia as some teach, but should be translated as chief or head prince.

The title of "prince" is revealed to Daniel in describing angelic activity related to the archangel Michael's battle against the opposing forces of the princes of Persia and of Grecia. [Daniel 10:13-20]

The title of prince is used by God when addressing the human king of Tyre. The message goes beyond the king to another entity who apparently has interaction and control over the king. [Ezekiel 28:11-19]

Isaiah contains references addressed to the prince of Babylon and to Lucifer. These are descriptions of Satan's existence as an angelic being and his connection with humanity. [Isaiah 14:12-17]

Another prince that "shall come" will be revealed at the end of this age during Israel's 70th week. Daniel contrasts this entity with Jesus, the Messiah, the Prince that was "cut off". [Daniel 9:26-27]

This prince will stand against (oppose) the Prince of Princes, who is Jesus. The result of the conflict will be the destruction of this prince (first beast of Revelation) in the lake of fire at Armageddon. [Revelation 19:20]

Other references to Satan and his agents in the visions of the prophets include the Assyrian, prince of Persia, prince of Grecia, king of the abyss, the destroyer, man of lawless, and son of perdition.

Satan plays the role of "chief prince" when his angelic agents are functional. He is the power behind them as they do his bidding in relation to the influence and control of human kings and their dominions. [Ezekiel 38:2]

I believe that Abaddon is Satan's (Gog's) agent for all seven heads (human dominions) as they are defined in Revelation 13 and 17. He is the beast from the abyss.

It is clearly stated that "the beast (Abaddon) has seven heads". Five have fallen (are historical) and the other two will exist in sequence during the 70th week. [Revelation 17:7-13]

Abaddon's connection with the seven human king "positions" is limited to influence and control. He is "of the seven" and is connected with all of them.

This limitation will change when God allows him to become the eighth king himself by an actual incarnation. This is the "lie" and strong delusion that God will send.

It will occur during the little horn's rule in the seventh king position. "Of the seven" can also be translated "of the seventh" which more specifically describes Abaddon's connection with the little horn. [Revelation 17:11]

He will then become the 8th king himself. This manifestation will be exceptionally unique to humans who experience his presence. [2Thessalonians 2:3-12]

The little horn will expand his sixth Middle Eastern dominion toward the south, the east, and toward Israel by forming alliances and by conquest. [Daniel 8:9]

He will be occupying the seventh king position of the seventh dominion when Abaddon becomes the eighth king himself by incarnating the little horn. [Revelation 17:11]

Abaddon will rule directly as king over most of the Middle East for a 42 month period (1,260 days) which will occur during the last half of the 70th week. [Daniel 11:36-44]

He will be destroyed by God in the lake of fire at the end of the next 30 day period, and Satan will be sent to the abyss for 1,000 years. [Revelation 19:20, 20:1-3]

Revelation 20 records Satan's future release after the 1,000 years and his attempt to deceive the nations once more.

He is referred to as Gog again, and all of the nations involved are referred to symbolically as Magog. [Revelation 20:7-10]

God addresses Satan as Gog in Ezekiel and Revelation because of his early connections with the inhabitants of the Land of Magog shortly after the flood.

The focus of Bible prophecy presents the view of Satan's activities, specifically in the northern regions of the Middle East. [Ezekiel 38:15]

I believe this is because of the area's position in relation to Eden, Mount Ararat, and its northern interface with the Land of Israel.

The larger land areas of the early habitations of humans in the Middle East shortly after the flood are described in the Bible as the Land of Egypt, the Land of Canaan, the Land of Magog, and the Land of Shinar.

These lands formed a crescent shape from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf starting with the Land of Egypt and ending with the Land of Shinar in clockwise order.

The Land of Israel was developed later which replaced part of the Land of Canaan on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean.

The area of the ancient Land of Magog today would include northeastern Syria, eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, and possibly Armenia and Georgia.

It is currently inhabited by a mixed group of original ethnic tribal ancestry plus genetic lineage from the other land areas of the Middle East.

Members of Magog's descendants have also migrated to other parts of the earth over a long period of time.

The current populations located in the ancient Land of Magog are mainly Turkoman, Assyrian, Kurdish, Iranian (Medes and Persians), and Arab.

The predominant religion is Islam. This common theology may have significance with regard to end time events.

The core of the area in view is northeastern Turkey, northern Syria, northern Iraq, and northwestern Iran. This area is in a state of change as a result of the USA invading Iraq.

This is most likely where Satan's antichrist (Abaddon incarnated in the little horn) will arise to power in the Middle East at the time of the end.

Why does God addressed Satan as Gog, connect him with the Land of Magog, and identify him as the chief prince of Mesheck and Tubal?

Why does God call him out of his place in the north to attack a regathered Israel in the Land of Israel at the end of this age?

God has allowed Satan to rule over this northern geographical area, from shortly after the flood and continuously through Greek rule.

The visions of the prophets indicate his presence in the same geographical area at the time of the end.

Included are the original Land of Magog, the Akkadian/Assyrian Empire, and the subsequent empires of neo-Babylon, Persia, and Grecia.

All of these human dominions were centered in the ancient Middle East with connections to the northern area of the Fertile Crescent. This same area will be Satan's base of operation at the time of the end.

He will come from his place out of the north, the ancient area of the Land of Magog, with the objective of seizing control of the Middle East and destroying the nation of Israel.

Satan's strategy for this event will include Abaddon, the false prophet who appears in the Land of Israel, and the little horn who will become the human manifestation of Abaddon.

The little horn will emerge from the same area as "king of the north" and he will expand his rule to include much of the Middle East.

He is seen as coming out of the northern division of Alexander's divided empire at the time of the end. He will then expand his control over most of the Middle East.[Daniel 8:9-12, 8:23-25]

One important identifier will be the location of his original base of operation at the time of the end, and not necessarily his ethnic origin.

He does not have to be a direct descendant of Magog, although this is a possibility, but he must appear in the area of the ancient Land of Magog.

Satan is the "chief prince", as indicated in one of his former relationships with the trading centers of Mesheck and Tubal. Magog's younger brothers were the founders of these two early prominent commercial centers of trade. [Ezekiel 27:13, 38:2]

Abaddon is the angelic "prince" who carries out Satan's bidding, and the little horn is the human ruler who will be incarnated by Abaddon at the time of the end. [Revelation 17:8-11]

A very important truth is revealed from these identifiers. Satan will attempt to mimic the relationship that God has with Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God and also the Son of Man. He is both God and human.

Satan aspires to replace God and will offer Abaddon as his christ (antichrist) who will appear to humans as being both a god and human. [2Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Abaddon's power as a fallen angel will be far greater than any ordinary human. His willingness and ability to destroy will not be matched. He will astonish humans who see him and they will believe his claim to be a god. [Daniel 8:23-25] [Revelation 13:2-8]

God addresses Satan as Gog in Ezekiel and Satan is called Gog in Revelation. The ancient Land of Magog in the Middle East has been and will be Satan's point of origin on the earth at the time of the end.

It is important to understand the structure of a prophet's presentation of visions received.

The vision can be an overview with some details, or it can be focused on a particular subject.

It can also include time lapses or interludes, skipping over other contemporary details, and measurable periods of time.

Ezekiel 36,37,38, and 39 taken together have a broad brush overview with focus on Israel's return to the Land of Israel after a very long period of absence.

Ezekiel's presentation of Satan's forces opposed to God, Israel's return and subsequent invasion, and Satan's defeat at Armageddon are the subjects of the vision.

This includes the initial invasion and occupation of the Land of Israel and the ensuing warfare which consummates in the battle of Armageddon. [Ezekiel 38:7-12, 38:18-23, 39:3-6]

The description of the war parallels the same battle of Armageddon given in Revelation and includes additional details regarding God's purposes for direct intervention.

God will call for war (a sword) in the mountains of Israel in order to eliminate the forces of Gog and will send His wrath (fire) upon extended geographical areas of the Middle East and beyond to those who dwell securely in the coast lands.

The " mountains " of Israel are literal and do not represent other nations and their militaries. The symbol of a mountain can represent a dominion or a kingdom in prophecy, but these are the literal mountains of Israel .

The battle will actually involve Satan's followers fighting among themselves because of the confusion and panic caused by God's direct intervention. [Ezekiel 38:21]

God will extend His wrath to other followers of Gog who will be dwelling in the coastal areas of the Middle East and those further away from the main battle area. [Ezekiel 39:6]

Many of the details of events of the 70th week are not part of Ezekiel's vision. God's focus is directed at Satan's "initial attack" and then the vision moves to his "defeat" at Armageddon.

There will not be an immediate defeat resulting at the point of invasion as some interpret the vision. The scope of the vision does not include the events of the 70th week that will take place between the attack and the defeat.

Satan, Abaddon, and the little horn are in view in this vision. They are three separate entities, but also act as one in many prophetic presentations. Revelation, Daniel, and other Scriptures supply more details.

The little horn will be transformed by Abaddon's full possession and he will have great power and supernatural angelic abilities. Angelic beings must possess a material body in order to be visible to humans.

Satan (Gog) will move from his place out of the Land of Magog to attack the Land of Israel. The original Land of Magog was in the northern part of the Fertile Crescent and Gog's initial base of operation will begin there at the time of the end.

This area today includes parts of north eastern Syria, eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, north western Iran, and possibly parts of Armenia and Georgia.

Canaan was a descendant of Ham and his descendants inhabited the eastern Mediterranean seaboard and the coastal and central regions of Anatolia. Primary examples would be the Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Hittites.

The Land of Shinar was the location of the Sumerian culture developed by the descendants of Noah's sons Shem and Ham. Abraham was a descendant of Shem and lived in the Babylonian province of Ur.

Nimrod was a descendant of Ham through Cush and built several of the first cities in the Tigris and Euphrates river valley.

Ancient Babylon was located in the Land of Shinar which was northwest of the Persian Gulf and this area is in the southeastern portion of Iraq today.

The original Land of Magog including Mesheck, Tubal, Gomer, and Togarmah's settlements were all located in the region between the Land of Canaan and the Land of Shinar.

The Land of Magog was later invaded and ruled by others including Akkadian/Assyrian domination toward the end of the first millennia after the flood.

This vast land mass included the northern areas around Mount Ararat, south and west to the borders of the Canaanite civilizations, and south and east to the borders of the Sumerian civilization.

Some would have Gog (the little horn) coming from outside of the Middle East as far north as Russia, northern Europe, and even the USA. This position presents a foreign leader ruling the area. This is possible.

Many others are aligned with Gog including Gomer and Togarmah who originally inhabited the excesses of the north quarters of the Middle East. These would be Magog's brothers. [Ezekiel 38:6]

Cush, Put, and Persia are mentioned next. The reference to Persia would include those inhabiting an area east of the Zargos Mountains, and this would be Iranian territory today. [Ezekiel 38:5]

This area included both the Medes in the north (descendants of Madai) and the Persians in the south (descendants of Elam). These are mixed and still living in the area of Iran today.

The descendants of Ham were located in at least three different land areas including the Tigris and Euphrates river valley, the Land of Canaan, Egypt, and areas near Egypt in Africa.

Put was located west of Egypt, but this could also be the original location of the descendants of Put in the Tigris and Euphrates river valley before migration to Africa.

Gog and his allies will be located in the land areas originally settled by all of those included above at the time of the end. Most of the Middle East is in view.

The present inhabitants of these locations include original ancestry and others who have moved in and through the area over the centuries of the past.

There has been a complex intermixing of Middle Eastern populations and others outside of the area over the vast sweep of historical change.

This leads me to believe that the significance of identifying Gog's allies by ethnic origins has more to do with original geographical locations rather than the specific ethnic lineage of subsequent migrations.

It is possible that both are to be considered. The land area in view has been ruled by several early post flood patriarchs starting with Magog and his brothers.

Next were the major empires of Akkadian/Assyria, neo-Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, Rome, Arabia, Mongolia, the Ottoman Turks, and the British.

The first five are included in the scope of Bible prophecy which then moves to the time of the end of this present age and identifies the future rulers, but does not name them.

I do not believe that Gog's allies or their specific locations can be precisely identified at the present time and that this will be more apparent closer to the time of the end.

I will update the Truth Files if I see any movement which looks like this development, but otherwise would have to speculate on this matter for now.

The confirmation of a covenant with many by the prince that shall come at the beginning of the 70th week may identify these invaders of the Land of Israel. [Daniel 9:27]

The covenant may include a planned strategy for attacking Israel and for world domination. It could turn out to be a perversion of the Abrahamic covenant that God has with Israel.

This could be the Islamic view of the same covenant if we are close to the end of the age. I am speculating here and using the possibility as an example.

Daniel's vision of the 70 weeks of years includes a reference to the confirmation of a covenant made with "many" by the prince that shall come, or by the Prince who is cut off (the Lord).

The covenant is to be in place for "one seven", or during the 70th week decreed for Israel. I believe that this will be some form of an alliance of the little horn and Israel's enemies. It could also be the covenant of the 70 weeks of years decreed for national Israel contained in the context of chapter 9. If so, the Lord will confirm it by executing the 70th week upon His return to complete the six objectives stated for national Israel.

The purpose of Ezekiel's invaders will be to attack and occupy the Land of Israel for themselves and for exterminating the returned remnant of Israel. Psalms 83 indicates the same confederation of Israel's direct enemies.

The statement " many are with you " in Ezekiel's vision may be the same as the covenant with "many" included in Daniel's vision of the 70 weeks of years if the confirmation is made by the prince that shall come. This will not be the case if it is the Lord's confirmation of the decree of the 70 weeks. [Ezekiel 38:4-7] [Daniel 9:27]

The confirmation of this covenant will actually last for the duration of the 70th week and will terminate at the battle of Armageddon where the little horn and his allies will be defeated.

The concept of a peace treaty made, by the prince that shall come, with Israel which is to last for seven years, only to be broken by catching the nation off guard after a shorter time period would not be a covenant that lasts for seven years. I also doubt that Israel would drop their guard or purposely maintain a less secure position because of a "false" peace agreement with their known enemies.

Ezekiel is told that the position of his nation at the time of the end will be one of security (living safely) and permanency (at rest) before the invasion takes place.

This position, or condition, could be construed to mean that the nation will be living under some sort of peace treaty. Israel has great confidence in the ability to secure the nation even during current opposition.

God will make it possible for Israel to defend themselves and maintain a national presence in the midst of their enemies against overwhelming odds in order to fulfill His plans and purposes.

Israel's existing security and confidence is self-generated. The nation possesses the third ranked overall military force in the world and they are fearless when pushed against the wall by their enemies.

God states His intentions very clearly in Ezekiel's vision. God's intervention and related actions will be to reveal Himself so that the nations will know that He is the Creator of the universe and the One and only true God. [Ezekiel 38:23, 39:25-29]

There are common threads that run throughout the Middle East today which include the religion of Islam and certain existing inhabitants who are the traditional enemies of Israel.

It is my opinion that Islam is replacement theology for Judaism and Christianity. The teachings of the religion display distinct satanic hatred for Israel and for believers in Jesus Christ.

It is also interesting to note that the area today is divided into several states which resemble the little horn's divided dominion at the time of the end.

Daniel is told that these would remain divided politically (10 kings, horns), but will be mixed in the seed of men (genetically).

Their unity will come about because of the leadership of the little horn. [Daniel 2:40-43, 7:19-23] [Revelation 17:7-17]

It is possible that these two forces, Islam and historical hatred for Israel, are the glue that will consolidate Satan's strategy at the time of the end.

If Islam is part of the process, Satan will be in good position to leverage the conditions that this religion has amplified. He may have been the instigator in 600 A.D. when Mohammed contrived Islamic monotheism.

This religion is not identified by name in the Bible although the events, actions, and behavior of the little horn and his followers described in Scripture resemble fundamental Islam today.

God's purpose of Ezekiel's vision adds to an even larger theme which includes the final destruction and dismantling of the rule of the nations. [Jeremiah 30:1-11]

He will establish the nation of Israel as the center of a literal 1,000 year long Kingdom of God through Jesus on the earth. [Revelation 19:11-15]

There will be universal recognition and acceptance of God's rightful position as Creator and Ruler of the universe as the result of His intervention.

The identity of Gog requires linking the entities of Satan, Abaddon, and the little horn as the king of the north.

Daniel and Revelation describe the actions of this same king which include his invasion, occupation, and rule of the Israel, and many other details. [Daniel 11:41, 12:1-13] [Revelation 11:2, 12:13-17]

The proper identification of Gog is essential to the correct understanding of Ezekiel 38 and 39. Gog is Satan who works through Abaddon and the little horn.

This satanic deception is the antichrist who is to come; the man of lawlessness, the destroyer, little horn, and king of the north. He will rule over the Middle East and will cause great tribulation and destruction.

Many interpret Ezekiel's war as an event of the past. Some view it as a war that is future, but separate, and precedes the battle of Armageddon.

Another view is that the war takes place 1,000 years after the battle of Armageddon and is the war of Satan (Gog) and the nations (symbolically Magog) described in Revelation 20.

Israel's future regathering for the purpose of being present in the Land of Israel at the time of the end eliminates the first position. Also, there is no record of history that fits the description of this war.

The magnitude and description of the war compared with Revelation's description of the battle of Armageddon and God's purposes described in Ezekiel eliminate the second position.

The rebellion at the end of the 1,000 year rule of Jesus is totally different than the war described in Ezekiel.

Satan (Gog) is the same after being released from the abyss where he was sent by God 1,000 years earlier just after the battle of Armageddon.

The nations (Magog) are symbolically the same....but the rebellion results in an incineration of the rebels, earth, and universe which God totally replaces with a new heaven and a new earth. [Revelation 20:9, 21:1-2]

In contrast the battle of Armageddon, which is Ezekiel's war, will result in a continuation of this present earth under the rule of Jesus for 1,000 years.

God, Jesus, and Israel are victorious in this war. Abaddon and the false prophet are destroyed forever in the lake of fire.

The little horn, human king of the north, is buried in Israel along with all of his defeated human armies and Satan is sent to the abyss. [Ezekiel 39:11-13] [Revelation 20:1-3]

The Lord Himself will defeat Satan at the battle of Armageddon. Satan (Gog) fails to halt God's plans and purposes and will ultimately be destroyed in the lake of fire.

Daniel 11:36 is a profile of the little horn, king of the north. He is the one Daniel is shown in his earlier vision coming out of the northern division of Alexander's divided empire.

This geographical area of the Middle East was ruled by the northern Greek kings before the first century and Daniel views the little horn arising out of the same area at the time of the end.

This vision contains a number of attributes describing him, his rise to power, his rule of the Middle East, his dealings with other parts of the world, and his eventual demise.

The entity in view is Abaddon, the first beast of Revelation, who will manifest himself in the little horn, human king of the north.

His attributes are both angelic and human which explains his strange make-up. This creature will be unlike any other king of the Gentiles of the past.

It is very significant to understand that the little horn is the combination of a human being and a fallen angel, both acknowledging Satan as their source of power and authority.

This relationship is similar to the one that God has with Jesus, but not technically the same.

Satan considers himself above or equal with God, Abaddon is his substitute for Jesus (antichrist), and the little horn is Abaddon's manifestation as a human. The application of this truth will reveal the correct interpretation of the vision.

This triad will not be presented as a false Jewish or Christian Messiah, however it will be one that many will be deceived into following.

Satan will also attempt to openly exterminate both the nation of Israel, Christians (Jews or Gentiles), and others who will not follow him. He will be out to win at all costs either by deception or direct elimination.

The king (little horn) behaves according to his will which reflects Abaddon's will under the direction and objectives of Satan. There is a definite inter-dependency reflected in this relationship.

The little horn receives his supernatural abilities and related success from Abaddon who in turn receives his power and authority from Satan.

Satan uses these two agents in his unrelenting pursuit to corrupt and destroy humanity, and to usurp God's authority.

Satan's price is that they both worship him as their god and carry out his purposes on the earth at the time of the end.

Satan's personal presence will be restricted to the earth by God at the time of the end of this present age and he will be prohibited from his access to the heavenly dimensions. His next stop will be the abyss for 1,000 years after he is defeated at Armageddon.

The little horn will not recognize the god(s) of his human ancestors, but will honor Satan, and will consider himself to be above all other gods, real or imagined.

He will consider himself above the true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He will have no regard for Jesus who is the Son of God, or any other false gods contrived by humans like the pagan gods.

He will acknowledge Satan as the one and only true god of gods above any other contenders and will claim that he himself is the manifestation of his god.

He will support his authenticity by demonstrating supernatural knowledge and abilities, and by his successes.

His religion will be one that values the ability to wage warfare and destruction. He will honor the god of forces (Satan).

His human ancestors (fathers) were never presented with the direct worship of Satan accompanied by Satan's personal presence and power which will be openly demonstrated to a level never experienced by humans.

Their pagan gods of the past were created by them, were imaginary, and did not exist.

Satan and Abaddon are both real entities and can interact with humans if God permits. In this case God will actually promote this action as part of his judgment process at the time of the end.

He will send strong delusion to a world that refuses to believe the truth about Himself as the only God and Creator of all things including Satan and Abaddon. This delusion is the "lie" that Satan will be allowed to present.

The religion of the little horn will be monotheistic, not pagan, and will resemble the two major religions of Judaism and Christianity. He will claim that his religion supersedes both, and any others that exist at the time.

He will persecute and have put to death those who will not submit to him as the one and only god. His primary targets will be the perceived members of these other two monotheistic religions.

Islam is and has been presented as a monotheistic religion as well, but the Bible does not identify it by name.

The teachings, actions, and extremes of this religion look much like the Bible's description of Satan's system of influence, and control.

I cannot be certain about this because change over time may turn out to create a different landscape. We do not know when these things will begin to take place and it depends on how close we are to the time of the end.

Satan's strategy will include justification for using the most unimaginable destructive forces to eliminate those who will not submit to him.

He will extend Abaddon's rule over many strong holds and he will distribute power, authority, and geographical areas of dominance to those who follow him.

He shall cause them to rule over many and will distribute the land for a price.

Those who oppose him will experience his wrath of unprecedented destruction. Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation note some of the encounters including the elimination and replacement of three of the ten other kings.

He will also destroy the "great city" of Mystery Babylon. The elimination of this great economic power will provide the opportunity for him to expand his Middle Eastern empire further and to dominate the world for a short period of time.

Included will be the defeat of the king of the south and occupation of his land, the invasion, defeat, and occupation of Israel, and of several other countries in the Middle East.

He will also annihilate many in reaction to perceived threats from the north (possibly Russian) and east (possibly China) of Abaddon's base of operations.

Daniel's vision in chapter 8 conveys the dual nature of this final king of the north. He operates as a human king by expanding his earthly empire to the south, the east, and toward the Land of Israel.

He stops Israel from worshiping (daily sacrifice) their God, and gains control of God's temple mount area (place of His sanctuary) which may be the great synagogue at the western wall since the temple itself is no longer there.

His invasion of Israel will include destruction of anything related to the Jews regarding the temple mount and the city of Jerusalem. He will trample the area of the temple, give it to his followers, and control it for 42 months.

John is told in Revelation to measure the temple of God in heaven, but not to measure the temple area that is "without" the earthly temple, for it is given over to the Gentiles to trample for 42 months (3 1/2 years).

He also attempts to eliminate "truth" regarding Israel's covenant relationship with God and he has an army of human followers (host) who serve him in these objectives.

Other significant attributes of this little horn are also revealed in the vision. He has the capacity to engage and defeat some of God's angelic armies (host of heaven).

These angels will be serving God as a restraining force against the little horn's ambitions, but he will have the power and ability to overcome them.

This reveals that the little horn is more than just a human king. He is also Abaddon the beast of Revelation 13 and 17 who will incarnate and possess the king, becoming the eighth king himself.

He will be able to defeat some of the angelic host of heaven, an army that will even include archangels (stars) who cannot restrain him. An ordinary human king cannot do this.

He will defeat the military and economic power of Israel and the same of other prominent world governments. He will also destroy and scatter a major portion of Israel's population.

Abaddon is a very powerful and destructive angelic creature, possibly the most powerful of the fallen angels next to Satan himself.

Abaddon's own strength will be greatly enhanced directly by Satan, and he will be supported by the other fallen angels who join him.

He will even stand up against Jesus (Prince of Princes), but will be defeated at Armageddon and thrown into the lake of fire.

God will turn on him after using him for His judgment process. God will focus His wrath on Abaddon's occupied territories in the Middle East and on the base of his operations.

Abaddon will react in desperation, calling on all forces at his disposal including the armies of the kings of the nations that are left.

It is interesting to note that the Euphrates River will dry up to make way for the armies of the kings that come from the east.

They will move from a staging point at the mouth of the Persian Gulf to another staging area north of Israel located in Syria.

The bed of the entire Euphrates will be used for transporting the armies. The river bed is shallow and has a uniformly flat bottom. The maximum distance traveled will be about 1,500 miles.

God will defeat them at the battle of Armageddon. The little horn (Abaddon's human manifestation), his armies, and allies will die in the battle. Abaddon will be destroyed in the lake of fire and Satan will be sent to the abyss.

One should be careful to notice that Daniel's vision beginning in chapter 11:36 is continuous including chapter 12. The little horn, king of the north, is referred to as the one ("he") who invades and conquers Israel in chapter 12:7.

His agenda (all of these things) listed in chapter 11:36-44 will be completed by the end of 1,260 days (first half of the 70th week). He will then set up the abomination of desolation and begin his 42 month (1,260 day) rule.

Daniel then asks what will happen to Israel after being conquered by the little horn. His is told that there will be a total of 1,335 from when the abomination of desolation is set up to the end of the days of tribulation for Israel.

The additional 75 days include 30 days of God's wrath (7 vials) against his kingdom and his defeat at Armageddon.

There will be another 45 days for gathering the elect of Israel and the separation of the Gentile nations for entrance into the 1,000 year earthly kingdom of Jesus.

The destruction of Jerusalem (the city) and the sanctuary (place of worship) will take place 110 days after the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount.

There will the be another 1,150 days (2,300 mornings and evenings) before Jerusalem and the temple mount are restored to Israel at the end of the tribulation period (110 days + 1,150 days = 1,260 days).

God's wrath will then be directed at the little horn and his followers during the next 30 days. The beginning of this action will draw the little horn away from Jerusalem and the temple mount and both will be recaptured by Israel.

His kingdom will begin to come apart and he will be forced to fight Jesus and the remnant of Israel at Armageddon. He will come to his end in total defeat.

Greetings in the name of Jesus;

Dear Stephen;

I am sorry, I must not have made my question clear:

My question is :from what Archaeology science or of Word derivations studies or Research, are you using for your origins of words in Ezekiel 38&39. Meshech, Tubal, Togarmah.

Let me give you an example, as to answer that I am seeking.

Where am I getting my archaic word derivatives, in word derivation studies, as to Ezekiel 38&39. The words Meshech and Tubal, and Togarmah. I am using, the Hailey's Bible hand book, About Archaic derivations; I've Got it here someplace, but you can look it up on line..

Any one could come in and say Meshech and Tubal, is Mars and Tegris Nebula. And one should show and or have a root, truth of its derivation or origin, based upon some science or research. I am asking about word origins, Not interpretations of the Chapter. One must Know origins and meanings of Words before a intellectual interpretations can be known. At least to my understanding. If you cannot understand the words, then Interpretations has no foundation.

So I am really just asking you about your origin evidence about the words Meshech and Tubal, and Togarmah, and the derivations, of which you derive your meanings from, and are you using any science or word studies?. If you please. Please answer if your Able.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

"My question is :from what Archaeology science or of Word derivations studies or Research, are you using for your origins of words in Ezekiel 38&39. Meshech, Tubal, Togarmah."

>Here is the deal

>I need only the Bible to understand Ezekiel's visions

>The Lord gives the origins of the locations and He uses the ancient and original post flood identifiers of the first settlements .... not the extended migrations of the first settlements

>Humans expanded from the Middle East across the globe .... but the Lord pinpoints the end time location by limiting His identifiers to the ancient names of the first inhabitants

>I have studied all of the information that you suggest and understand it, but one must stick to the Lord's focus and intended definition in Ezekiel's visions

>Otherwise the rendering will only confuse by attempting to select further ethnic and linguistic trackings of human migrations from the Middle East

>For example the descendants Magog and his brothers of the early inhabiters are all over the world today and there would be no way to distinguish the vectors given in the vision with accuracy

>It is the "land" of Magog that Ezekiel is directed to

>This land is still there today, the core of it was in the area of northern Iraq just south of mount Ararat

>This land later became the core of the Assyrian empire ruled by different kings

>Then neo-Babylon, Persia, and norhtern Greek

>The indiginious peoples of the original post settlements are still there and mixed today by the way, but it is the geographical "land" area that Ezekiel views in the vision

>And "rosh" does not mean "Russia" .... but "head" prince

>Gog is satan in the passage and the one who is adressed by the Lord [38:17]

>And Meschek and Tubal are not "Moscow and Tobolsk" as some have assumed

>These were prominent trading centers of the post flood inhabitnts of the Middle East

This is an interesting post here.
I will throw in my thoughts and see what you think.

You quote:..."Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come."

benny reply:..."It is my opinion that this event will happen just prior to Daniels 70th week beginning.

You quote:..."This event will be so devastating that the earth will begin to wobble “"like a drunkard"....

Isaiah 24: 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

benny reply"

The Magnetic Polar Reversal predicted for 2012 is not a hoax. The poles are already moving and the magnetic field is weakening. I think the press in the USA hasn’t picked up on it because at this point no one knows what effect it will have on us. Predictions range from no effect at all to catastrophic. It is definitely something to watch, and I believe it could possibly be a fulfillment of Rev. 6:12-14, the 6th seal judgment. Time will tell.

You quote:..."....and be knocked out of orbit ("removed out of her place").

Isaiah 13: 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

This destruction will be so devastating that all life on earth will be in jeopardy, prompting Christ’s advent.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

benny reply:
The Days Are "Shortened." Some may ask a question about Matthew 24:22, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Does this mean that the three-and-one-half years predicted by Daniel will not run their full course? Does this mean that Jesus shortened Daniel's prophecy cutting it to less than three-and-one-half years? Does this explain why the day is unknown?

Whatever Jesus meant, I am sure that He did not mean to change prophecy. Even God cannot change God's Word. Jesus said,
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled (Matthew 5:17–18).

By the way, reducing the 1260 days would also reduce the 1290 days and the 1335 days. That is quite a few jots and tittles to erase from our Bibles.

How can we be sure that Jesus did not reduce the number of days? Because Revelation confirms Daniel. About sixty years after Jesus spoke of shortening the days, the apostle John wrote of this same period of time. According to him the full 1260 days or 3½ years or 42 months is still intact (Revelation 12:6, 14; 13:5). Any interpretation of Matthew 24:22 which ignores these verses in Revelation is like trying to put a puzzle together with only one piece while ignoring the rest of the pieces still in the box.

If Jesus did not mean to reduce the number of days in Matthew 24:22, then what did Jesus mean? The Bible does not say much about this, but it does give us some possible clues. Amos 8:9 says:
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.

If the sun goes down at noon, what do you have? You have a pretty short day, don't you?

There's more. Revelation 8:12 says:
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

From this passage we notice an astonishing thing. If the day is shorter we would expect the night to be longer. Not so here. The day is shorter and the night is shorter too! In other words, instead of a twenty-four-hour days we have a sixteen-hour day. Could this be what Jesus meant when He said, "And except those days be shortened..."?

Can the word "shortened" really take on this interpretation? Of course it can. We can test this by applying it to a different time measure. Suppose I were a mighty king and went about to change the calendar, and suppose I said, "I have shortened the months." Most naturally it would mean that I decreased the number of days in each month rather than changing the calendar from twelve to eleven months.

Suppose I am holding a bunch of candles in my hand and I say to you, "I have shortened these candles." Naturally you would understand me to mean that I chopped off the candles to make each one shorter rather than reducing the number of candles by throwing some away. Even if I chopped off the candles collectively--with a sharp knife taking one swift slice through the whole bunch-the result is that each candle is shortened individually.

Yes, the word "shortened" easily and naturally expresses shorter days. "Shortened" in the original language has the connotation of "amputated." "Amputated days" expresses the idea perfectly. In other Greek literature the word is used of "mutilated stones." (Does this mean fewer stones? No.) A related word is used of "short-horned" animals. (Does this mean fewer horns? No.) Also, "a spear broken off short." (Does this mean fewer spears? No.) Another related word means "an undervest with shortened sleeves." (Does this mean fewer sleeves? No.) Another related word means "dwarf." (Do ten "dwarfs" equal nine men? No. "Dwarf" does not reduce the number. It merely reduces the size.) Another related word means "the stumpfingered." (Does this mean fewer fingers? No, each finger is shorter, precisely the interpretation we suggest for "shortened days.") These examples show that I am not suggesting anything different than what normal language would suggest.

One might object that the days collectively are shortened, not individually. The time is shortened, but the days are not. In response to this, let's ponder a similar phrase in 1 Corinthians 7:29, "the time has been shortened." Another word for "shortened" is used here, but the meaning is the same as some propose for our troublesome phrase in Matthew 24. Now in Matthew 24:22, the Holy Spirit could easily have written the word "time" just as He did in 1 Corinthians 7:29. If He meant "time," why did He not say so? "Time" is general, but "days" is specific. He did not say the "time" is shortened, or the "years" or the "months," but He did say the "days" were shortened. All the evidence of normal language leads me to believe that the object of shortening is the days.

Let's review. Evidence abounds that believers in the tribulation can know the day of Christ's return. Against this Matthew 24:22 is only one little problem passage. In light of the evidence that the day is known, all I need to do is to demonstrate the possibility of the "shorter-days" interpretation in order to keep intact the consistency of the total system. Hard evidence has demonstrated not only its possibility, but its probability. It doesn't need it, but the shorter-days interpretation certainly enjoys the preponderance of the evidence.

In the court of logic, if I am holding forth a possibility, the burden of proof rests on the other side to disprove the possibility. Unless such proof arises, no one can rest on one little obscure phrase to overthrow a host of other Scriptures that clearly reveal the known day. It's not sound exegesis, is it? At least one interpretation is possible because it harmonizes with Scripture; whereas the other interpretation is impossible because it contradicts Scripture.

What if the "shorter-days" possibility is wrong? If you prefer, consider an alternate possibility. As another has expressed it, the days are "shorter than they normally would have been in terms of the purpose and power of the oppressors." In other words, if Satan and antichrist had their way, they would remain in power indefinitely. But God intervenes to cut their plans short and to keep the human race from annihilating itself. This interpretation reduces Satan's days but not God's days.

If the "shorter-days" possibility is correct, we see the mercy and judgment of God mingled together. Mercy, because if each day is one-third shorter, then men have one-third better chance of surviving each terrible day. "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved."

Not only mercy, but judgment. If you have a scientific mind, perhaps you have noticed a problem. If each day is shortened, then the earth has to rotate faster. If the earth rotates faster, then it would have more rotations each time it revolves around the sun. The result would be more days in a year. How can this be when God has decreed that 1260 days still come out to three and one-half years? Well, if God can change the rotation of the earth, He can surely change the orbit of the earth also in order to make the number of days in each year remain the same. A shorter orbit would compensate for a shorter day. A passage in Revelation suggests such a change in the relation of the earth and the sun. This is where judgment comes in:
And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory (Revelation 16:8, 9).

Comparing this passage with the one previously quoted, Revelation 8:12, shows the involvement in both cases of a fourth angel. This forms additional confirmation that there is some relationship between the length of the day and the heat of the day.

Judgment and mercy mingled. The time will come when God will vent His judgment, no longer mingled with mercy. "For he shall have judgment without mercy" (James 2:13). "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" (Revelation 14:10). If you are not saved, then believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood today, while there is still mercy.



.....................................................benny

Because Benny thinks that God will run out of mercy after the pre-trib rapture....

What will 1/3 of this look like and why wold that be a bad thing?

"Because Benny thinks that God will run out of mercy after the pre-trib rapture..."

No benny does not believe this at all

He knows that the Lord will still offer salvation during the tribulation period and this is evidenced by Revelation's unfolding of the time

Eli,...this topic that Guysmith has started has nothing to do with a quote that I obviously made from another section on this forum.
Your tactic here is very rude.
Do not try and chase me down,and try throwing a billboard in front of my face.
Just post it in it's proper section,...If I see it , I'll answer you.
..............................................benny

My mistake.

When do you think that the Lord will run out of mercy? Obviously after one's death it is too late. But as long as anyone is alive there is mercy available, correct?

I would think that mercy runs out when the sign of the Lord's coming in the heavens come to pass.(the midnight cry)And 5 were foolish and tried to ask of oil from the 5 that were ready.

..............................................benny

I do not know when you mean. Do you mean after the pre-trib rapture?

Or do you mean that the Lord's mercy is not available after the Lord's return to earth?

Or do you mean something else?

22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;
his mercies never come to an end;
23 they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.

Lamentations 2:22-23.

Dear Eli,...read the following topic,...it should explain what I mean....
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=24701
post#1
...............................................benny

15"You will come from your place out of the

remote parts of the north,

you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses,
a great assembly and a mighty army; "

What capital of a mighty nation

[largest tank army in the world]

is located to the remote north of Israel ?

Who is to say that Russia is completely overthrown by Islamic radicals and then remade into a new Islamic state or some other unforseen event?

Russia was not even a nation when Ezekiel prophecied.

It is more likely that the "land of the north" was a fluid, apacolyptic styled metaphorical way of describing foreign enemies who will arise in the future and attack the nation of Isreal. It does not necessarily mean that these armies will be from the north, but Russia could very well be a part of that event, coincidentally.

Dear Eli,....Have you spent a lot of time researching Ezekial 38?

..........................................benny

Gideon said, I donot doubt that 1/3 of the earth's populaiton will soon be wiped out, but I do not beleive Babylon will be destroyed just yet. We see the destruction in Babylon in Revelation 18, right before the end of the Great tribulation. We see this being wrapped up at the end of the GT, at the very beginning of Revelation 19, when the wedding is announced as being imminent.

Yes, enough time. There is a good book Hard Sayings of the Bible. Here is more info:

Replaces Hard Sayings of th Old Testament, which received a 1990 Christianity Today Critics' Choice Award!Are you grappling with a difficult verse in the Bible? And are you looking for a short, easy-to-read answer that really makes sense without explaining away the verse?Hard Sayings of the Bible is the handy reference book you need. Here you will find explanations of over 500 of the most troubling verses to test the minds and hearts of Bible readers. Four seasoned scholars, all with a notable gift for communicating with people in the pew, take you behind the scenes to find succinct solutions to a wide variety of Bible difficulties, ranging from discrepancies about numbers to questions about God's justice.Historical, cultural and linguistic backgrounds shed light on these passages and not only help explain what they meant in biblical times but also show how they are relevant today.Now carefully cross-referenced with over 100 new verses explained, as well as a dozen new introductory articles on chronology, miracles, archaeology, prophecy and more, Hard Sayings of the Bible offers the combined resources of five previous volumes that have over 250,000 copies in print.If you find yourself tied up in scriptural knots, here's the book that will help you cut through them.


More details
Hard Sayings of the Bible
By Walter C. Kaiser, Peter H. Davids, Frederick Fyvie Bruce, Manfred T. Brauch
Contributor Walter C. Kaiser, Peter H. Davids, Frederick Fyvie Bruce, Manfred T. Brauch
Published by InterVarsity Press, 1996
ISBN 083081423X, 9780830814237
808 pages

On page 316 the question of God and Magog is answered. Here is a link: http://books.google.com/books?ct=result&am...Magog#PPA316,M1

Walter Kaiser is one of the most respected evangelical Bible scholars ever. He answers that question nicely there. I would not quickly dismiss a man who spent a generation doing very serious research on the Old Testament in a scholarly fashion. Not to mention that he was a man of strong faith in Jesus.

Dear Eli,...Do you believe that the Jews will succeed in building a third temple in the near future?

..................................................benny

I am open to that, but I am not at all dogmatic that it must happen. It very well may. At any rate, the anichrist will definitely come against Israel and the church one day.

Ha! You can't accuse me of denying anything there! Slippery one aint I?

Just got back,...You are funny.
It seems that your perception is a little off base today.
Eli,...the reason that I asked you the question is because I believe that Ezekial 38 happens just slightly before Daniels 70th week begins and of course,...the third temple at that time would be built.
I do not think that Ezekial 38 would come to pass at any time during Daniels 70th week.
One of the many reasons that I believe this is because of Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Obviously, the third temple's walls would fall to the ground,...if Ezekial 38;20 happened after the third temple was built.
This third temple will be destroyed,...but not until the Lord's feet have descended upon Mount Olivet,...when the mount is split in two.

...................................................benny

I understand that line of reasoning you presented.

My understanding is thus:
Ez 38-39 are apacolyptic descriptions of the end of the millennium. This is discussed in Rev 20 where it mentions God and Magog.

Daniel's seventieth week is long past. It described all of the things Messiah's first coming acomplished back in 27 AD, mostly centered on Jesus sacrifice on the cross. There are plausible ways to reckon the numbers and having them end in the period when Jesus began and ended his earthly ministry.

That leaves the seven year tribulation's lenght of seven years in question. I believe that, like most of the book of Revelation, the "7 years" is metaphorical, fluid, non-literal language that typifies apacolyptic literature as well as the book of Revelation itself. It signifies that, like the times of the Macabbees, there will be a future season of intense persecution and trouble for all of God's people. The antichrist was typified by antiochus Epiphanes 4 in that time. He did defile the temple and left it desolate for around three 1/2 years before it was reconsecrated by the Jews. This may be a forshadowing of a future temple and its desecration. It does not have to be because a similar abomination caused desolation of the temple in AD 70. Notice that there is no temple still to this day. It was desolated in 70 AD.

How long will the great tribulation be? Not too long. Jessus will return and interupt its course or no flesh would be saved. God has given the AC limitations that will expire in God's timing. It may be longer than 7 years, or maybe shorter. It is irrelevant. 7 is a number of divine fullness in Revelation. In God's perfect timing this end will come. No no one knows the day or hour.

And, of course, the rapture will take place when the Lord splits the eastern sky at his return. That is also when he goes and kills the antichrist in battle somehow, "by the brightness of His coming."

The scope of visionary prophecy has no events noted outside of the 70th week for the tribulation period

Ezekiel's vision has two parts the invasion .... and the later battle of Armageddon

All Gog [satan], the little horn/beast, and his human followers

All before the Lord's millennium

The next satanic led human rebellion will come at the end of the millennium

Same Gog [satan] and the rebelling nations [symbolically Magog] of the millennium

Until one understands this truth, one will never get it right

And no tribulation temple either .... this is speculative only

Nothing in the visions about a tribulation temple of the Lord's .... nothing

A temple of the little horn's god .... yes

It is already on the mount today

A temple of the Lord's for the millennium .... yes

Dear Eli,...I am not going to nit-pic your reply, but I would like to point out that the ac and false prophet are not destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's coming. The scriptures state that the ac and the false prophet are both cast alive into the burning lake of fire,

............................................benny

6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 2 Thes 2:6-10.

Greetings in the Name of Jesus:

discernment of Scriptures are a gift or or blessing from God; that is true discernment

I have have heard many discern true and false things:

But if one is truly of Gods discernment. Then all prophesies and parable are open unto him,

And they will even Know What the " three Frogs" are coming out of the Mouth of the beast.

Now the test as to the proper and True spiritual Interpretations is that your frogs or " Unclean Spirits" must do this:...


the Three frogs or Unclean spirit," Shall bring the whole world to the Battle of Armageddon"

Do you know what, three things shall bring the World to the Battle of armegedon?,...I do, Which do come out of the Mouth of the Beast: Of course if you do not know what the Beast is, your not gonna Know what its, three unclean spirits are.

So the answer must say these three things will bring the world to the battle of Armageddon.

"Whom shall he teach Knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk,and drawn from the breast?

I pray my words do no offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

Dear Eli,..is your reply in response to my post in post 28?
If so,....how does your response connect to my post?
Your reply seems out of place?

............................................benny

Greetings in the name of Jesus;

Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. This is how doctrine and truth is attained of Gods words,

One must build upon that which has come before.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

Who's post are you responding too?
Please keep in mind that the Lord is not the author of confusion.

....................................................benny

6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 2 Thes 2:6-10.

Them being cast alive into the lake of fire is metaphorical language. Either that or Paul was wrong. The fact is, both Paul and John were inspired by God. If they are destroyed by the splendor of Christ's coming and they are cast alive into the lake of fire, then there is some way to harmonize these two.

Where is the lake of fire? I know notof any. Jesus will have to take these two there. MAYBE it is apocalyptic language. That is why the book is called the "Apocalypse."

Good point.

I will be sure to keep that on my mind when I read your confusing eschatology.

Correct.
Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 118:2

Hell: What the Bible Says About It
Dr. John R. Rice

Abstract: An exposition of the doctrine of eternal punishment in a burning hell for all the unsaved people of all ages.

1. How Can We Know About Hell?
“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Lk. 16:19-31).

Hell, what a horrible thought!
If there is a place of eternal torment where damned souls cry in vain for water amid the flames they cannot escape forever, it is the most terrible and alarming fact in this universe! The very possibility that such a doom may await the sinner is so shocking that no other question can compare with it in importance. How can today’s feasting or hunger, clothing or nakedness, honour or infamy, pleasure or pain compare in importance with a million years of pain, torment of body, mind, and conscience? I beg the sinner to consider how worth while it is to know what God says about Hell.

And, fellow Christian, if one loved one of yours is in danger of the fire of Hell, how alarmed and anxious you ought to be! How earnest ought to be your entreaties, how fervent your prayers, how sleepless your efforts to save him from the doom of lost souls! Yes, if men are going to such a Hell that is so terrible, bonds of kinship and family ought not to be the limit of our prayers and efforts. If there is one man on this earth, even a total stranger, who may go to Hell, then every person who has any love for his fellow man, ought to have a consuming passion to rescue that poor soul! To saints and sinners alike the question of Hell becomes one of alarming importance. We ought to learn about Hell to escape it ourselves and to rescue others from it as well.

The Bible our only source of information about Hell
The only place to learn about Hell is in the Bible. Man’s science knows nothing beyond death. Human experience does not reach beyond the grave. If men on earth are ever to know what is beyond this life, they must learn it from God. Heaven, Hell, rewards, punishments, happiness and sorrow beyond the grave are matters about which the Word of God is the only authority; so this book will show what the Bible says about Hell.

The Scripture which begins this booklet is what Jesus Himself said about Hell; and much more than this He said, as recorded in many places in the New Testament. Jesus Christ was the greatest preacher on Hell of all Bible preachers. People often speak of the Lord Jesus as the lowly Nazarene or the meek and lowly Jesus. But actually, though Jesus is the very essence of God’s love made manifest in human form, His message of warning against the terrible consequences of sin was the plainest and sharpest in all the Bible.

Consider the following Scriptures, every one of them statements of the Lord Jesus about Hell:

· “But whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire” (Mt. 5:22).

· “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Mt. 10:28).

· “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Mt. 13:40-42).

· “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Mt. 13:49-50).

· “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (Mt. 23:33).

· “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt. 25:41).

· “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Mt. 25:46).

· “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt” (Mk. 9:43-49).

The above Scriptures are all in the words of the Lord Jesus Himself. Jesus was a Hell-fire preacher. To Him, Hell was a fact, a horrible fact, but a necessary one. With holy indignation, He preached against sin and with solemn warning He urged men to flee from the wrath to come. Bible preachers, preachers who follow the Lord Jesus Christ, must preach about Hell.

But I call your attention again to the passage in Luke 16:19-31, quoted in the beginning of this chapter. Jesus uttered these words in the presence of men as solemn history. This is not a parable. The Bible does not call it a parable. It does not have the marks of a parable. Abraham, a historical character, is mentioned by name. Lazarus has his name given. These are not imaginary characters. No doubt the name of the lost man, too, would have been given, but the tender heart of the Saviour would not give offence to loved ones who may have heard the true account of the rich man who died and went to Hell because he did not repent.

If I do not believe this passage, I do not believe Jesus Christ. If this Scripture about Hell is not absolutely trustworthy, then I must reject the Bible as the Word of God and Jesus as the Son of God. If I could not believe what the Bible says about Hell, I could not believe what it says about Heaven, about God, about Christ, about salvation, or about right or wrong. If the Bible is proved inaccurate and unreliable on one point, then it is a human book, not divine; and the Christian religion is no better than any other man-made religion. If the Bible is true, then I must believe what it says about Hell.

Jesus said more about Hell than did Moses, David, Isaiah, Paul, Peter, John or anybody else in the Bible. Jesus is an authority. We are compelled to take what He said. We dare not take away one word concerning the torments of a doomed soul in Hell. We cannot add one comforting fact to what Jesus said there. To tamper with this account means straight-out infidelity. If I prove any part of this teaching untrue, I have proved Jesus a human impostor, not the Son of God, and the Bible a human book, not the Word of God. If we are not to believe this story of the rich man in Hell, there is nothing we can believe about the Bible, and there is nothing left to the Christian religion. We must believe and we must take at face value what Jesus said about Hell. If we trifle at this point, we shall earn the curse of those who die unsaved, unwarned, and who go to this Hell.

Why the devil deceives people about Hell
From the garden of Eden until now the devil has been busy leading men to rebel against God and to sin. The best argument the devil can bring to get men to sin is to say that God does not punish sin. To Eve in the garden of Eden when God had said, “In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die,” the devil answered, “Ye shall not surely die.” He made Israel believe in the days of Malachi, “It is vain to serve God,” because they said, “They that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered,” and “Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delighteth in them” (Mal. 3:14-15; 2:17).

It is the business of the devil to make men believe that sin will not be punished. If the devil can get men to believe that there is no Hell, or that Hell is the grave, or that Hell is only figurative, not a literal place, or that men in Hell will be burned up at once without much pain, or that they will have another chance to be saved, or that, after all, God is too good to send folks to Hell; then the devil accomplishes his purpose, gets men to continue in sin, and so go to Hell. It is the devil’s business to minimise or deny the Bible teaching on Hell.

After all, the modern ideas about Hell are just a part of the modernism which denies that man is inherently wicked, denies the deity of Christ, the blood atonement, and the inspiration of the Bible. Instead of direct creation of man, his fall in the garden of Eden, and the depraved hearts of all mankind which the Bible teaches, the modernist believes that man is a product of evolution and is getting better all the time. Instead of salvation by the blood of Christ, an atonement made by the Son of God for sinful men, the modernist teaches salvation by man’s works and character. Instead of a Bible which is the verbally inspired Word of God picturing man as a great sinner doomed to an awful Hell, with salvation offered free by a great Saviour, the modernist follows traditions of men, theories of science and reason.

Hell is an unpopular subject. Dr. J.M. Dawson said in 1930 that “the old idea about Hell has faded out and pastors of cultured churches refuse to revive it.” But a man of God who believes the Bible must preach the terrible truth, or he will be to blame for the ruin of those who lift their fruitless cries in a Hell of which they were not warned! A man who believes the Bible and seeks to please God must preach Hell.

2. Hell a Literal Place of Torment
Those who encourage men to reject Christ sometimes say that Hell is only the grave. How foolish that is when you hear the rich man cry out in Hell, “I am tormented in this flame!” He was not simply in the grave! He wanted his brothers to repent, “lest they also come to this place of torment.” Repenting would not have kept his brothers from the grave; it would keep them from Hell. Jesus spoke about Hell as a place “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mk. 9:48). We are told also that Hell is “a lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Rev. 19:20), and that:

“…the smoke of their torment ascendet