Whether you are a Christian or not we know the following to be true.
Homo sapiens has been walking around on this pretty blue planet for quite some time.
The estimates fluctuate between 100,000 and 250,000 years.
I had my DNA sequences last year ( I can highly recommend this to all. It will cost 100 bucks and you can do it through the national geographic website where they have collaborated with IBM) and it shows my father’s ancestral line and the migration route of today’s Europeans from the savannas of Africa through Mesopotamia, central Asia and into Europe.
We know that people have always worshipped deities, thousands and thousands of them.
Our earliest ancestors worshipped bears and sometimes they worshipped other human beings ( a mistake people still make today).
I, as an unbeliever, am fascinated by why people (all cultures throughout history) have worshipped gods.
In fact, I think this is the strongest argument that I have heard the religious make: i.e. people have always believed in god(s), so there must be something to it.
The following is the best theory I have heard to explain our religious impulse.
What made us so successful and what allowed us to go from being hunters and gatherers to creatures that farm and herd cattle and build civilizations and the space shuttle are our unusually large brains.
In fact, our brains, and therefore our skulls are so large that human birth is a problematic enterprise, as the mothers on this forum can testify to.
Many people, religious and otherwise, have elaborate theories about why people have ‘consciousness’ and they range from he usual religious explanations to the new-age woo-woo of ‘ a universal spirit’ or ‘ Hegelian clap-trap about a universe that is becoming self-aware.
All this sounds very interesting but no one has been able to make a solid argument that our mind, as shaped by our large brains in anything else but a survival ‘trick’ along the lines of the Cheetah’s phenomenal speed or the sticky tongue of a chameleon or the long neck of the giraffe which allows it to eat higher from a tree.
Our ability to think in the abstract and to plan and to evaluate the possible outcome of future actions is unique in the animal kingdom. As far as we know none of the other critters can do this.
This nifty little trick comes with a trade-off though and that is that we are also capable of contemplating the inevitability of our own death. Lions and wart-hogs are not burdened with this.
The unpleasantness of this mental state can be diminished, it seems, by people telling each other stories about a world after death and by a kaleidoscopic amount of supernatural entities that can influence our lives (and deaths) for better or for worse.
Following Occam’s Razor this seems to me the best explanation for the religious impulse.
V.
Full Version: The Philosophy Of Religion
QUOTE (Vissarion @ Sep 4 2008, 08:58 PM) 
Whether you are a Christian or not we know the following to be true.
Homo sapiens has been walking around on this pretty blue planet for quite some time.
The estimates fluctuate between 100,000 and 250,000 years.
If modern humans had been around for 100,000,
then human historical accounts would reflect this.
If modern humans had been around for 100,000 years,
then [for instance] electricity and computers and nuclear bombs
would have been invented some 94,000 years ago.
Forerunners of modern humans very well may have existed 100,000 years ago.
No histories or even alleged histories go back further than around 6000 years.
Do you know of any alleged history account going back [for instance] 50,000 years ?
Modern humans, made "in the image of God" have been around a time period
compatible with the historical record. Around 6000 years.
I had my DNA sequences last year ( I can highly recommend this to all. It will cost 100 bucks and you can do it through the national geographic website where they have collaborated with IBM) and it shows my father’s ancestral line and the migration route of today’s Europeans from the savannas of Africa through Mesopotamia, central Asia and into Europe.
We know that people have always worshipped deities, thousands and thousands of them.
Our earliest ancestors worshipped bears and sometimes they worshipped other human beings ( a mistake people still make today).
I, as an unbeliever, am fascinated by why people (all cultures throughout history) have worshipped gods.
In fact, I think this is the strongest argument that I have heard the religious make: i.e. people have always believed in god(s), so there must be something to it. The following is the best theory I have heard to explain our religious impulse. What made us so successful and what allowed us to go from being hunters and gatherers to creatures that farm and herd cattle and build civilizations and the space shuttle are our unusually large brains. In fact, our brains, and therefore our skulls are so large that human birth is a problematic enterprise, as the mothers on this forum can testify to. Many people, religious and otherwise, have elaborate theories about why people have ‘consciousness’ and they range from he usual religious explanations to the new-age woo-woo of ‘ a universal spirit’ or ‘ Hegelian clap-trap about a universe that is becoming self-aware. All this sounds very interesting but no one has been able to make a solid argument that our mind, as shaped by our large brains in anything
["is anything," I presume you meant to type]
else but a survival ‘trick’ along the lines of the Cheetah’s phenomenal speed or the sticky tongue of a chameleon or the long neck of the giraffe which allows it to eat higher from a tree.
You are presuming that various life form characteristics "evolved" by blind chance and time.
That is not the same as proving the contention.
Our ability to think in the abstract and to plan and to evaluate the possible outcome of future actions is unique in the animal kingdom. As far as we know none of the other critters can do this. This nifty little trick comes with a trade-off though and that is that we are also capable of contemplating the inevitability of our own death. Lions and wart-hogs are not burdened with this. The unpleasantness of this mental state can be diminished, it seems, by people telling each other stories about a world after death and by a kaleidoscopic amount of supernatural entities that can influence our lives (and deaths) for better or for worse. Following Occam’s Razor this seems to me the best explanation for the religious impulse.V.
Homo sapiens has been walking around on this pretty blue planet for quite some time.
The estimates fluctuate between 100,000 and 250,000 years.
If modern humans had been around for 100,000,
then human historical accounts would reflect this.
If modern humans had been around for 100,000 years,
then [for instance] electricity and computers and nuclear bombs
would have been invented some 94,000 years ago.
Forerunners of modern humans very well may have existed 100,000 years ago.
No histories or even alleged histories go back further than around 6000 years.
Do you know of any alleged history account going back [for instance] 50,000 years ?
Modern humans, made "in the image of God" have been around a time period
compatible with the historical record. Around 6000 years.
I had my DNA sequences last year ( I can highly recommend this to all. It will cost 100 bucks and you can do it through the national geographic website where they have collaborated with IBM) and it shows my father’s ancestral line and the migration route of today’s Europeans from the savannas of Africa through Mesopotamia, central Asia and into Europe.
We know that people have always worshipped deities, thousands and thousands of them.
Our earliest ancestors worshipped bears and sometimes they worshipped other human beings ( a mistake people still make today).
I, as an unbeliever, am fascinated by why people (all cultures throughout history) have worshipped gods.
In fact, I think this is the strongest argument that I have heard the religious make: i.e. people have always believed in god(s), so there must be something to it. The following is the best theory I have heard to explain our religious impulse. What made us so successful and what allowed us to go from being hunters and gatherers to creatures that farm and herd cattle and build civilizations and the space shuttle are our unusually large brains. In fact, our brains, and therefore our skulls are so large that human birth is a problematic enterprise, as the mothers on this forum can testify to. Many people, religious and otherwise, have elaborate theories about why people have ‘consciousness’ and they range from he usual religious explanations to the new-age woo-woo of ‘ a universal spirit’ or ‘ Hegelian clap-trap about a universe that is becoming self-aware. All this sounds very interesting but no one has been able to make a solid argument that our mind, as shaped by our large brains in anything
["is anything," I presume you meant to type]
else but a survival ‘trick’ along the lines of the Cheetah’s phenomenal speed or the sticky tongue of a chameleon or the long neck of the giraffe which allows it to eat higher from a tree.
You are presuming that various life form characteristics "evolved" by blind chance and time.
That is not the same as proving the contention.
Our ability to think in the abstract and to plan and to evaluate the possible outcome of future actions is unique in the animal kingdom. As far as we know none of the other critters can do this. This nifty little trick comes with a trade-off though and that is that we are also capable of contemplating the inevitability of our own death. Lions and wart-hogs are not burdened with this. The unpleasantness of this mental state can be diminished, it seems, by people telling each other stories about a world after death and by a kaleidoscopic amount of supernatural entities that can influence our lives (and deaths) for better or for worse. Following Occam’s Razor this seems to me the best explanation for the religious impulse.V.
Various catapillars trudge around for a few months,... then their bodies produce a thread and they construct what we call a cacoon around themself. Their bodies become jelly like and reconstitutes. Finally out of the cacoon emerges a flying creature with beautiful wings. How can anyone think such a thing could come into being by blind chance? Blind chance and time is not a ration explanation for the incredible complexity and diversity of all living beings.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 6 2008, 02:04 AM)
If modern humans had been around for 100,000,
then human historical accounts would reflect this.
then human historical accounts would reflect this.
This is most certainlt true.
However, the term modern humans, doesn't refer to humans 100,000 years ago.
QUOTE (John Prewett)
If modern humans had been around for 100,000 years,
then [for instance] electricity and computers and nuclear bombs
would have been invented some 94,000 years ago.
then [for instance] electricity and computers and nuclear bombs
would have been invented some 94,000 years ago.
Huh? How do you figure that?
QUOTE (John Prewett)
Forerunners of modern humans very well may have existed 100,000 years ago.
No histories or even alleged histories go back further than around 6000 years.
No histories or even alleged histories go back further than around 6000 years.
Ever heard of Mesopotamia at 5,000 B.C.? That was 7,000 years ago.
QUOTE (John Prewett)
Do you know of any alleged history account going back [for instance] 50,000 years ?
Cavemen didn't know how to write..
QUOTE (John Prewett)
Modern humans, made "in the image of God" have been around a time period
compatible with the historical record. Around 6000 years.
compatible with the historical record. Around 6000 years.
Modern humans usually go back to the year A.D. 1500. I personally feel modern humans go down to 1900 or 1800.
QUOTE (John Prewett)
[size=4] [font="Arial Black"] You are presuming that various life form characteristics "evolved" by blind chance and time.
Very similar to how you believe God formed by chance and time.
In the beginning there was ONLY one faith, one God and one true religion. I guess you don't understand what satan accomplished in the garden. It was CONFUSION so you could not hear or see.
QUOTE (Neal @ Sep 6 2008, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 6 2008, 02:04 AM)
If modern humans had been around for 100,000,
then human historical accounts would reflect this.
then human historical accounts would reflect this.
Neal-This is most certainly true.
Neal-However, the term modern humans, doesn't refer to humans 100,000 years ago.
QUOTE (John Prewett)
If modern humans had been around for 100,000 years,
then [for instance] electricity and computers and nuclear bombs
would have been invented some 94,000 years ago.
then [for instance] electricity and computers and nuclear bombs
would have been invented some 94,000 years ago.
Neal-Huh? How do you figure that?
JP-If the humanoids of 100,000 had really been FULLY human,
then they would have done and invented all the things that FULLY humans
did and invented, and would have done it in the same time period
that FULLY humans did it. The fact that the humanoids of 100,000 years ago
DID NOT create histories and invent puters and nukes etc, is PROOF
that they were not FULLY HUMAN.
QUOTE (John Prewett)
Forerunners of modern humans very well may have existed 100,000 years ago.
No histories or even alleged histories go back further than around 6000 years.
No histories or even alleged histories go back further than around 6000 years.
Neal-Ever heard of Mesopotamia at 5,000 B.C.? That was 7,000 years ago.
JP-I've heard of Mesopotamia. But never heard of any history allegedly written
7000 years ago by someone in that area [or any other area on earth].
QUOTE (John Prewett)
Do you know of any alleged history account going back [for instance] 50,000 years ?
Neal-Cavemen didn't know how to write..
JP-Humanlike beings of 50,000 years ago didn't know how to write.
QUOTE (John Prewett)
Modern humans, made "in the image of God" have been around
a time period compatible with the historical record. Around 6000 years.
a time period compatible with the historical record. Around 6000 years.
Neal-Modern humans usually go back to the year A.D. 1500.
Neal-I personally feel modern humans go down to 1900 or 1800.
JP-We are not using the same definition of "modern human."
By "modern human" you appear to mean an "premodern" human that has has been
transformed by latter day cultural conditioning/education into a "modern human".
By your definition, primitive people of today would not be classified as "modern human".
Where would you draw the lines ? Can one be illiterate and still be a "modern human"?
By "modern human" I mean humans dating from the earliest days of history.
Perhaps "fully human" would be more accurate terminology.
Babys born 3000 years ago are identical to babys born last week.
Both are "modern humans" with ALL the mental and spiritual gifts that separate humans from animal.
The citizen of Rome 2000 years ago was as "fully human" as todays citizen of Rome.
Primitives from Bongo-Bongo are as Fully Human as citizens of New York.
The human-like beings/humanoids of 100,000 or 250,000 years ago were not "fully human."
A baby of 100,000 was NOT intrinsically identical to a "fully human" baby [born during the last 6000 years] .
Which is why they didn't create vast empires and write histories
and invent electricity and computers and nukes.
QUOTE (John Prewett)
You are presuming that various life form characteristics "evolved" by blind chance and time.
[size="4"] [font="Arial Black"] Neal-Very similar to how you believe God formed by chance and time.
JP-God is unique because no other being created God.
If another being created God, then that being would be God.
JP-Off topic-Certain Bible passages lead me to believe that God has considered the possibility
that an even more supreme "God" might have created God and has remained hidden.
this is an old post i have not seen vissarion on this forum at all so why drag up vissarions post
i suggest you start your own post if you want to discuss what vissarion has said in his post
if you are weighting for vissarion to respond you wil be weighting for a long time he is no longer comming to this forum or is active
damo
Damo,
This is a new thread that was posted on Sept 4, 2008. I have seen Vissarion on the forum in the last couple of weeks. Vis chooses to stay in plain sight as opposed to being on the forum secretly. Thanks V.
Gods Blessings,
Al
This is a new thread that was posted on Sept 4, 2008. I have seen Vissarion on the forum in the last couple of weeks. Vis chooses to stay in plain sight as opposed to being on the forum secretly. Thanks V.
Gods Blessings,
Al
if he is hear i dont see him as i tend to go threw the new topics Adeline i looked at the date this was posted and i tend to do this with the older posts as i notice when a member leavs this forum their posts are still floating around it sort of puzzles me to why people tend to re activate old posts
if you are reading this vissarion no offence from your croation bro damo just have not seen you hear since your last conversation with caneman and he no longer comes to this forum i have seen his old posts and i hope caneman is ok
i wil tend to keep an eye out and as i said i look at the date the post was set
dont ever let go of that wicked sence of humor vissarion
damo
QUOTE (damo7 @ Sep 7 2008, 11:30 AM)
this is an old post i have not seen vissarion on this forum at all so why drag up vissarions post
i suggest you start your own post if you want to discuss what vissarion has said in his post
if you are weighting for vissarion to respond you wil be weighting for a long time he is no longer comming to this forum or is active damo
i suggest you start your own post if you want to discuss what vissarion has said in his post
if you are weighting for vissarion to respond you wil be weighting for a long time he is no longer comming to this forum or is active damo
Vis and Neal recently posted and I responded.
I await their weighty response.
Maybe I will wait a long time.
No problem.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 7 2008, 07:16 PM)
QUOTE (damo7 @ Sep 7 2008, 11:30 AM)
this is an old post i have not seen vissarion on this forum at all so why drag up vissarions post
i suggest you start your own post if you want to discuss what vissarion has said in his post
if you are weighting for vissarion to respond you wil be weighting for a long time he is no longer comming to this forum or is active damo
i suggest you start your own post if you want to discuss what vissarion has said in his post
if you are weighting for vissarion to respond you wil be weighting for a long time he is no longer comming to this forum or is active damo
Vis and Neal recently posted and I responded.
I await their weighty response.
Maybe I will wait a long time.
No problem.
it was my mistake as i have not seen him hear for some time you may be will be weighting but neal is hear and its good to see old neal hanging around so forgive me i need to look close at the dates
have fun with vissarion john you wil see what i mean by his wicked sence of humor
God bless from damo
QUOTE (Patmos @ Sep 6 2008, 05:29 PM)
In the beginning there was ONLY one faith, one God and one true religion.
Explain to me how Christianity existed in the time of Adam and Eve?
Or did 1 true religion (Christianity) dominate completely over a previous 1 true religion (Judaism, or whatever religion it was)?
QUOTE (Patmos)
I guess you don't understand what satan accomplished in the garden. It was CONFUSION so you could not hear or see.
Here's a thought, is there any evidence that Satan exists?
QUOTE (John Prewett)
If the humanoids of 100,000 had really been FULLY human,
then they would have done and invented all the things that FULLY humans
did and invented, and would have done it in the same time period
that FULLY humans did it. The fact that the humanoids of 100,000 years ago
DID NOT create histories and invent puters and nukes etc, is PROOF
that they were not FULLY HUMAN.
then they would have done and invented all the things that FULLY humans
did and invented, and would have done it in the same time period
that FULLY humans did it. The fact that the humanoids of 100,000 years ago
DID NOT create histories and invent puters and nukes etc, is PROOF
that they were not FULLY HUMAN.
Well duh, no 1 argues that cavemen were fully human...
And my opinion on this is...
Vissarion swears at Christians. He uses the f word to Christians (Immortality). He's attacked and insulted members of the board, using swear words and etc.
-
And I have done, none of that.
And he's not been put in debates-only section.
And he's been here since November 2007. And he's an atheist and I'm an agnostic.
But you know what? Vissarion is Jewish.
And Christians, by definition, love Jews. They are, after all, God's chosen people.
So it's no surprise to me why Vissarion isn't put in debates-only section.
Meh.
Vissarion swears at Christians. He uses the f word to Christians (Immortality). He's attacked and insulted members of the board, using swear words and etc.
-
And I have done, none of that.
And he's not been put in debates-only section.
And he's been here since November 2007. And he's an atheist and I'm an agnostic.
But you know what? Vissarion is Jewish.
And Christians, by definition, love Jews. They are, after all, God's chosen people.
So it's no surprise to me why Vissarion isn't put in debates-only section.
Meh.
A few things:
It isn't easy for me to post regularly since my posts are now first screened by the moderator.
As far as I can tell this is because I was dumb enough to use the 'F' word once and once only.
It is not possible to have a discussion with people who think that homo sapiens have been around for only 6000 years.
By the way, the term ‘modern humans’ isn’t a scientific term and is therefore totally useless in this discussion.
One is entitled to one's own opinions but not to one's own facts.
Even Christian scientists, such as Francis Collins, who headed up the Human Genome Project, know that we have been around for over 100,000 years and that life on Earth has evolved from single celled organisms to the variety of life we see today over a period of 3.5 billion years.
It will not have escaped the thoughtful reader that the arrogance of non-scientists who claim to know something (without any evidence, of course) that contradicts the findings of our best and brightest, like Mr. Collins, is truly astounding.
We live in a strange culture.
Apparently I am supposed to respect the opinions of just about anyone on any subject.
John Prewett, who seems to know absolutely nothing about biology, geology, paleontology and history, to name but a few disciplines, can appear among us and, with a rather hostile tone, declare the most grotesque nonsense.
Are there any limits here at all to what will be accepted as a valid contribution to a thoughtful discussion?
When someone states that the Earth is flat or that dinosaurs lived alongside humans that is just swell with all here ?
How about the claim that Elvis is still alive or that demons and witches roam these terrestrial planes?
Please, someone help me out here.
Do we call ‘nonsense’ here at all or will any kind of lunacy be accepted with a slight nod of the head and an utterance of; “well, that just might be true” ?
V.
It isn't easy for me to post regularly since my posts are now first screened by the moderator.
As far as I can tell this is because I was dumb enough to use the 'F' word once and once only.
It is not possible to have a discussion with people who think that homo sapiens have been around for only 6000 years.
By the way, the term ‘modern humans’ isn’t a scientific term and is therefore totally useless in this discussion.
One is entitled to one's own opinions but not to one's own facts.
Even Christian scientists, such as Francis Collins, who headed up the Human Genome Project, know that we have been around for over 100,000 years and that life on Earth has evolved from single celled organisms to the variety of life we see today over a period of 3.5 billion years.
It will not have escaped the thoughtful reader that the arrogance of non-scientists who claim to know something (without any evidence, of course) that contradicts the findings of our best and brightest, like Mr. Collins, is truly astounding.
We live in a strange culture.
Apparently I am supposed to respect the opinions of just about anyone on any subject.
John Prewett, who seems to know absolutely nothing about biology, geology, paleontology and history, to name but a few disciplines, can appear among us and, with a rather hostile tone, declare the most grotesque nonsense.
Are there any limits here at all to what will be accepted as a valid contribution to a thoughtful discussion?
When someone states that the Earth is flat or that dinosaurs lived alongside humans that is just swell with all here ?
How about the claim that Elvis is still alive or that demons and witches roam these terrestrial planes?
Please, someone help me out here.
Do we call ‘nonsense’ here at all or will any kind of lunacy be accepted with a slight nod of the head and an utterance of; “well, that just might be true” ?
V.
Neal,
I have been wandering why you are only allowed in the Debates Section of the forum? Your posts seem to be sincere and honest. And, you're right...you do show us respect.
Al
I have been wandering why you are only allowed in the Debates Section of the forum? Your posts seem to be sincere and honest. And, you're right...you do show us respect.
Al
i stand with neal by what he has said and its strange why neal is only alowed in the debates forum neal should be alowed to post where ever he likes he has shown us respect he has a good heart and i like what neal leavs in this forum and neal if you are reading this dont let this throw you off why vissarion has been alowed to do what he does it puzzles me i did not even know he was a jew as i only go by what he leavs in the posts he finds him self involved in
i know were vissarion is comming from though he has his wits and he does use the brain god has given him even though he will let loose with out holding back i have atheist friends like vissarion who dont pull back and when i am with these guys i also dont pull back some times it wil get heated when we are discussing certain things but i have known these guys since i was young i have earnt their trust and there respect and in return my friends respect me and listen to what i have to say we can walk away and come back cracking up over what we discuss
it puzzles me why neal is only allowed to be involved in the debates section of this forum when we had one christian who was ussing harsh words she came in the back door and i dont see her that much since she predicted gustav was going to destroy new orleans of the map to were the witches of that town were to be killed
i guess god heard our prayers over new orleans and i dont see her posting that much i might be wrong but i have not seen her for a while under her new usser name
God bless from damo
i know were vissarion is comming from though he has his wits and he does use the brain god has given him even though he will let loose with out holding back i have atheist friends like vissarion who dont pull back and when i am with these guys i also dont pull back some times it wil get heated when we are discussing certain things but i have known these guys since i was young i have earnt their trust and there respect and in return my friends respect me and listen to what i have to say we can walk away and come back cracking up over what we discuss
it puzzles me why neal is only allowed to be involved in the debates section of this forum when we had one christian who was ussing harsh words she came in the back door and i dont see her that much since she predicted gustav was going to destroy new orleans of the map to were the witches of that town were to be killed
i guess god heard our prayers over new orleans and i dont see her posting that much i might be wrong but i have not seen her for a while under her new usser name
God bless from damo
Neal-Here's a thought, is there any evidence that Satan exists?
JP-History books and daily news saturated with evidence that Satan exist.
Neal-Well duh, no 1 argues that cavemen were fully human...
JP-So everyone agrees that fully human beings came in being [were created] some 6000 years ago.
Wonderful ! Glad we got that settled.
JP-History books and daily news saturated with evidence that Satan exist.
QUOTE (Neal @ Sep 9 2008, 03:39 AM)
QUOTE (John Prewett)
If the humanoids of 100,000 had really been FULLY human,
then they would have done and invented all the things that FULLY humans
did and invented, and would have done it in the same time period
that FULLY humans did it. The fact that the humanoids of 100,000 years ago
DID NOT create histories and invent puters and nukes etc, is PROOF
that they were not FULLY HUMAN.
then they would have done and invented all the things that FULLY humans
did and invented, and would have done it in the same time period
that FULLY humans did it. The fact that the humanoids of 100,000 years ago
DID NOT create histories and invent puters and nukes etc, is PROOF
that they were not FULLY HUMAN.
Neal-Well duh, no 1 argues that cavemen were fully human...
JP-So everyone agrees that fully human beings came in being [were created] some 6000 years ago.
Wonderful ! Glad we got that settled.
QUOTE (damo7 @ Sep 8 2008, 11:39 PM)
i stand with neal by what he has said and its strange why neal is only alowed in the debates forum neal should be alowed to post where ever he likes he has shown us respect he has a good heart and i like what neal leavs in this forum and neal if you are reading this dont let this throw you off why vissarion has been alowed to do what he does it puzzles me i did not even know he was a jew as i only go by what he leavs in the posts he finds him self involved in
i know were vissarion is comming from though he has his wits and he does use the brain god has given him even though he will let loose with out holding back i have atheist friends like vissarion who dont pull back and when i am with these guys i also dont pull back some times it wil get heated when we are discussing certain things but i have known these guys since i was young i have earnt their trust and there respect and in return my friends respect me and listen to what i have to say we can walk away and come back cracking up over what we discuss
it puzzles me why neal is only allowed to be involved in the debates section of this forum when we had one christian who was ussing harsh words she came in the back door and i dont see her that much since she predicted gustav was going to destroy new orleans of the map to were the witches of that town were to be killed
i guess god heard our prayers over new orleans and i dont see her posting that much i might be wrong but i have not seen her for a while under her new usser name
Damo,
Here we have to learn to discern...the poster who claims to be a Christian and yet puts hexes fellow Christians bares to be watched. By her words, predictions, and prophecies she has proved herself to be a false teacher. We must learn how to discern false prophets using Scriptural truths. BTW- The harsh Chrsitian you referred to is using the forum again... her new monkier is Esteviento. When she becomes bold again, (and she will, she can't help herself) my report finger is ready to be used. Got that Justice? BTW- I will be reading every single one of your posts.
Have a good day.
Gods Blessings,
Al
God bless from damo
i know were vissarion is comming from though he has his wits and he does use the brain god has given him even though he will let loose with out holding back i have atheist friends like vissarion who dont pull back and when i am with these guys i also dont pull back some times it wil get heated when we are discussing certain things but i have known these guys since i was young i have earnt their trust and there respect and in return my friends respect me and listen to what i have to say we can walk away and come back cracking up over what we discuss
it puzzles me why neal is only allowed to be involved in the debates section of this forum when we had one christian who was ussing harsh words she came in the back door and i dont see her that much since she predicted gustav was going to destroy new orleans of the map to were the witches of that town were to be killed
i guess god heard our prayers over new orleans and i dont see her posting that much i might be wrong but i have not seen her for a while under her new usser name
Damo,
Here we have to learn to discern...the poster who claims to be a Christian and yet puts hexes fellow Christians bares to be watched. By her words, predictions, and prophecies she has proved herself to be a false teacher. We must learn how to discern false prophets using Scriptural truths. BTW- The harsh Chrsitian you referred to is using the forum again... her new monkier is Esteviento. When she becomes bold again, (and she will, she can't help herself) my report finger is ready to be used. Got that Justice? BTW- I will be reading every single one of your posts.
Have a good day.
Gods Blessings,
Al
God bless from damo
QUOTE (Neal @ Sep 8 2008, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE (Patmos @ Sep 6 2008, 05:29 PM)
In the beginning there was ONLY one faith, one God and one true religion.
Explain to me how Christianity existed in the time of Adam and Eve?
Christianity and Adamic faith, which by the way was not Judaism because he wasn't a Jew are one in the same.
Right after the fall in the garden is the first prophecy of the coming Messiah.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Showing the action that was to happen at the cross. The seed of the woman is of course Israel which was played out through the virgin Mary. Jesus had Mary's seed but His Father was in Heaven thus no fleshly Male attributes.
The fact that many of the so called orthodox of reform forms of modern Judaism missed what was really happening does not negate what happened. Jesus was a Jew. He was from the Tribe of David and He was the Messiah God, just like the prophets of old foretold. Moses knew Him face to face. He isn't a new creation but rather became the God Man at the appointed time and the mystery was revealed that had previously been kept partially obscurred.
Or did 1 true religion (Christianity) dominate completely over a previous 1 true religion (Judaism, or whatever religion it was)?
QUOTE (Patmos)
I guess you don't understand what satan accomplished in the garden. It was CONFUSION so you could not hear or see.
Here's a thought, is there any evidence that Satan exists?
Look out your door at all the people starving, dying of disease, war famines and the whole lot. Look at greed, malice, envy, etc...and you should have a good starting point.
Of course some people have met him but only Kings and prophets because he doesn't mingle with the common man but on rare occasions. He has plenty of demi god demons to do most of his work, he only shows up for the big games and an occasional joust. he's a ruler of this age, so he rules from a mountain like a war lord.
Most people are so confused already. The last thing you want to do is untangle their confusion. He only opposes those of the top levels on a direct basis or earthly kings whom he takes at his will to accomplish his will since their foolish minds are darkened, for the most part.
QUOTE (Patmos @ Sep 9 2008, 01:23 AM)
Christianity and Adamic faith, which by the way was not Judaism because he wasn't a Jew are one in the same.
Okay, but don't we not know what ethnicity/race Adam and Eve were? If so, then how could we conclude they were not Jewish?
QUOTE (Patmos)
Look out your door at all the people starving, dying of disease, war famines and the whole lot. Look at greed, malice, envy, etc...and you should have a good starting point.
Um yeah, like all of those are evidence of a Satan or Satan himself...
QUOTE (Patmos)
Of course some people have met him but only Kings and prophets because he doesn't mingle with the common man but on rare occasions. He has plenty of demi god demons to do most of his work, he only shows up for the big games and an occasional joust. he's a ruler of this age, so he rules from a mountain like a war lord.
Most people are so confused already. The last thing you want to do is untangle their confusion. He only opposes those of the top levels on a direct basis or earthly kings whom he takes at his will to accomplish his will since their foolish minds are darkened, for the most part.
Most people are so confused already. The last thing you want to do is untangle their confusion. He only opposes those of the top levels on a direct basis or earthly kings whom he takes at his will to accomplish his will since their foolish minds are darkened, for the most part.
QUOTE (Patmos)
I guess you don't understand what satan accomplished in the garden. It was CONFUSION so you could not hear or see.
QUOTE
Here's a thought, is there any evidence that Satan exists?
QUOTE (Patmos)
Look out your door at all the people starving, dying of disease, war famines and the whole lot. Look at greed, malice, envy, etc...and you should have a good starting point.
This is commonly referred to as the argument from personal incredulity although in this particular case I think we are entitled to label it as an argument from galactic stupidity.
One of the consequences of religious thinking of this kind is that, if we'd all adhere to it en masse, we would still be living in the miserable squalor of our lamentable ancestors who didn't know a damn thing about this world of ours.
If all human happiness and suffering can be attributed to benign or hostile celestial entities there really is no reason for us to try to better our circumstance.
If Patmos were the ruler of this nation we would not bother to develop our modern agriculture with its pest resistant crops, because Satan can cause the crops to fail anyway and the starvation that results from this little prank is the inevitable result of gods and devils playing otherworldly games with us lowly mortals.
In Egypt there is a road which has more traffic deaths on it than anywhere else in the world.
Why is this so? After all, it is a fairly straight and well-maintained road.
The reason is that the locals drive on it like maniacs with very little concern for common sense safety precautions.
They do this because they are convinced that if god wants them to live or die they have no influence in this matter. And they crash into on another and are maimed and killed by the thousands each year.
Imshallah!
This is the mindset of Patmos and besides it being absolutely ridiculous, retarded and worthy of our contempt I hold that thinking of this kind is also morally despicable and I will oppose the likes of Patmos until the last dog dies.
V.
Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man,And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Coincidence?
Do you consider using reasoning and logic un-spiritual ... non-spiritual ... not spiritual?
Because I do not.
But there is a spirit in man,And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Coincidence?
Do you consider using reasoning and logic un-spiritual ... non-spiritual ... not spiritual?
Because I do not.
QUOTE (Adeline @ Sep 9 2008, 12:50 AM)
QUOTE (damo7 @ Sep 8 2008, 11:39 PM)
i stand with neal by what he has said and its strange why neal is only alowed in the debates forum neal should be alowed to post where ever he likes he has shown us respect he has a good heart and i like what neal leavs in this forum and neal if you are reading this dont let this throw you off why vissarion has been alowed to do what he does it puzzles me i did not even know he was a jew as i only go by what he leavs in the posts he finds him self involved in
i know were vissarion is comming from though he has his wits and he does use the brain god has given him even though he will let loose with out holding back i have atheist friends like vissarion who dont pull back and when i am with these guys i also dont pull back some times it wil get heated when we are discussing certain things but i have known these guys since i was young i have earnt their trust and there respect and in return my friends respect me and listen to what i have to say we can walk away and come back cracking up over what we discuss
it puzzles me why neal is only allowed to be involved in the debates section of this forum when we had one christian who was ussing harsh words she came in the back door and i dont see her that much since she predicted gustav was going to destroy new orleans of the map to were the witches of that town were to be killed
i guess god heard our prayers over new orleans and i dont see her posting that much i might be wrong but i have not seen her for a while under her new usser name
Damo,
Here we have to learn to discern...the poster who claims to be a Christian and yet puts hexes fellow Christians bares to be watched. By her words, predictions, and prophecies she has proved herself to be a false teacher. We must learn how to discern false prophets using Scriptural truths. BTW- The harsh Chrsitian you referred to is using the forum again... her new monkier is Esteviento. When she becomes bold again, (and she will, she can't help herself) my report finger is ready to be used. Got that Justice? BTW- I will be reading every single one of your posts.
Have a good day.
Gods Blessings,
Al
God bless from damo
i know were vissarion is comming from though he has his wits and he does use the brain god has given him even though he will let loose with out holding back i have atheist friends like vissarion who dont pull back and when i am with these guys i also dont pull back some times it wil get heated when we are discussing certain things but i have known these guys since i was young i have earnt their trust and there respect and in return my friends respect me and listen to what i have to say we can walk away and come back cracking up over what we discuss
it puzzles me why neal is only allowed to be involved in the debates section of this forum when we had one christian who was ussing harsh words she came in the back door and i dont see her that much since she predicted gustav was going to destroy new orleans of the map to were the witches of that town were to be killed
i guess god heard our prayers over new orleans and i dont see her posting that much i might be wrong but i have not seen her for a while under her new usser name
Damo,
Here we have to learn to discern...the poster who claims to be a Christian and yet puts hexes fellow Christians bares to be watched. By her words, predictions, and prophecies she has proved herself to be a false teacher. We must learn how to discern false prophets using Scriptural truths. BTW- The harsh Chrsitian you referred to is using the forum again... her new monkier is Esteviento. When she becomes bold again, (and she will, she can't help herself) my report finger is ready to be used. Got that Justice? BTW- I will be reading every single one of your posts.
Have a good day.
Gods Blessings,
Al
God bless from damo
high Adeline
i did not relize thank you for the insight i wil be on guard blessings to you and your family Adeline
God bles from damo
QUOTE (Vissarion @ Sep 10 2008, 10:59 PM)
QUOTE (Patmos)
I guess you don't understand what satan accomplished in the garden. It was CONFUSION so you could not hear or see.
QUOTE
Here's a thought, is there any evidence that Satan exists?
QUOTE (Patmos)
Look out your door at all the people starving, dying of disease, war famines and the whole lot. Look at greed, malice, envy, etc...and you should have a good starting point.
Vis-This is commonly referred to as the argument from personal incredulity although in this particular case I think we are entitled to label it as an argument from galactic stupidity.
JP- "Evidence" of Satan was requested.
JP- Apparent evil in the world IS at least a bit of evidence.
JP- If there was no apparent evil in the world,
then that would be "evidence" that there was no powerful evil spirit at large.
Vis-One of the consequences of religious thinking of this kind is that, if we'd all adhere to it en masse, we would still be living in the miserable squalor of our lamentable ancestors who didn't know a damn thing about this world of ours.
JP- Take a look at the conditions of various parts of the world where different ideologies
have been dominant. Atheism had it's high point in USSR from around 1920 to around 2000.
JP- Various religions have and do dominate other parts of the world.
JP- Hinduism has produced great degrees of miserable squalor in India.
JP- Roman Catholicism has produced great degrees of miserable squalor in S.America/Phillippines
JP- It is not accurate to lump all religions together.
JP- Protestantism was dominant in USA from till about the sixties
[when Roman Catholicism gained the upper hand].
Protestantism produced the most productive society
and largest middle class that the world has ever had.
Vis-If all human happiness and suffering can be attributed to benign or hostile
celestial entities there really is no reason for us to try to better our circumstance.
JP-Your observation, even if contains a bit of truth,
proves nothing about the actual existence of supernatual beings.
Vis-If Patmos were the ruler of this nation we would not bother to develop our modern agriculture with its pest resistant crops, because Satan can cause the crops to fail anyway and the starvation that results from this little prank is the inevitable result of gods and devils playing otherworldly games with us lowly mortals.
JP- Protestant dominated USA did more to advance modern agriculture,
and all other scientific and technological progress
than any other single society, including Atheism dominated USSR.
Vis-In Egypt there is a road which has more traffic deaths on it than anywhere else in the world. Why is this so? After all, it is a fairly straight and well-maintained road. The reason is that the locals drive on it like maniacs with very little concern for common sense safety precautions. They do this because they are convinced that if god wants them to live or die they have no influence in this matter. And they crash into on another and are maimed and killed by the thousands each year. Imshallah! This is the mindset of Patmos and besides it being absolutely ridiculous, retarded and worthy of our contempt I hold that thinking of this kind is also morally despicable and I will oppose the likes of Patmos until the last dog dies.V.
The existence of lies doesn't prove there is no truth.
I would agree that NO religion is superior to FALSE religion.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
JP- "Evidence" of Satan was requested.
Good luck finding any.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
JP- Apparent evil in the world IS at least a bit of evidence.
No John. Inference is not evidence.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
JP- If there was no apparent evil in the world,
then that would be "evidence" that there was no powerful evil spirit at large.
then that would be "evidence" that there was no powerful evil spirit at large.
?????
QUOTE
JP- Take a look at the conditions of various parts of the world where different ideologies
have been dominant. Atheism had it's high point in USSR from around 1920 to around 2000.
have been dominant. Atheism had it's high point in USSR from around 1920 to around 2000.
Atheism, my dearest John, is the absence of belief. It is not a philosophical position. The word atheism therefore is entirely without content.
Soviet-style communism is a collection of very questionable beliefs, as was Nazism.
You are totally misrepresenting what was happening in Stalin's Russia.
This system was utterly dogmatic and centered on leader worship. The USSR was very much organized like a faith-based society and anyone showing too much intellectual curiosity was sent straight to the Gulag.
If you want to call that atheism, be my guest.
I do find it somewhat slimy, to say the least, to suggest that the likes of me are in any way supportive of or sympathetic towards a society that descended into utter lunacy because they bought into a ridiculous economic and philosophic ideology.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
JP- Various religions have and do dominate other parts of the world.
Yep.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
JP- Hinduism has produced great degrees of miserable squalor in India.
I'd agree with that to some degree.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
JP- Roman Catholicism has produced great degrees of miserable squalor in S.America/Phillippines
By Jove, we once again agree.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
JP- It is not accurate to lump all religions together.
That is a good point. The Amish don't keep me awake at night even though I find their beliefs a bit strange.
I can't say the same for the hordes of deranged Muslims who are just dying to meet Allah and take me with them.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
JP- Protestantism was dominant in USA from till about the sixties
[when Roman Catholicism gained the upper hand].
[when Roman Catholicism gained the upper hand].
Huh ? the latest Pew poll tells us that less than 24 % of the US populace is Catholic.
http://religions.pewforum.org/affiliations
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
Protestantism produced the most productive society
and largest middle class that the world has ever had.
and largest middle class that the world has ever had.
You left out that little detail that these fine Protestants first had to kill off the native population of the Americas and steal their land.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 13 2008, 05:40 AM)
JP-Your observation, even if contains a bit of truth,
proves nothing about the actual existence of supernatual beings.
proves nothing about the actual existence of supernatual beings.
The burden of proof, my darling, is on you. Not on me.
I am not the one claiming to know a deity.
V.
Wow! This is a good one!! 
Don't even know where to start. The "V" has very good points. Religion literally is Superstition. Now with That said, if someone is so "indoctrinated" toward any specific belief... they will never admit it... and prove the very point.
I'm not sure the world was created in 7 days. Hmmmm
While I Do believe in God, I'm not sure what God is... perhaps a collective of everything and everyone that has gone before us. The bible was written to instill morals, nothing wrong with good morals is there? If everyone is having sex with each other then it would only take one virulent disease to wipe out the entire population of mankind, practically overnight... I think the bible was written for many reasons. I was an avid believer in Kent Hovind's teachings til he went to jail, shouldn't have to explain that one. There are a lot of theories out there, you have to be open to hearing them without swallowing them hook line and sinker though. I think the bible is a conundrum... as it was meant to be, the problem is we're getting more intelligent or "discernable".
After all, lunatics were thought to be holy or to be in close contact with God... in many lands... why do you suppose such a similar thought existed in so many places, even simultaneously? Because they were in close coms with God? Or because it was a way for people to "accept" them within their cultures? Hmmm... which do you think is true do you suppose? Well anyway... believe whatever you want... thats your right and superstition or religion.
Don't even know where to start. The "V" has very good points. Religion literally is Superstition. Now with That said, if someone is so "indoctrinated" toward any specific belief... they will never admit it... and prove the very point.I'm not sure the world was created in 7 days. Hmmmm
While I Do believe in God, I'm not sure what God is... perhaps a collective of everything and everyone that has gone before us. The bible was written to instill morals, nothing wrong with good morals is there? If everyone is having sex with each other then it would only take one virulent disease to wipe out the entire population of mankind, practically overnight... I think the bible was written for many reasons. I was an avid believer in Kent Hovind's teachings til he went to jail, shouldn't have to explain that one. There are a lot of theories out there, you have to be open to hearing them without swallowing them hook line and sinker though. I think the bible is a conundrum... as it was meant to be, the problem is we're getting more intelligent or "discernable". After all, lunatics were thought to be holy or to be in close contact with God... in many lands... why do you suppose such a similar thought existed in so many places, even simultaneously? Because they were in close coms with God? Or because it was a way for people to "accept" them within their cultures? Hmmm... which do you think is true do you suppose? Well anyway... believe whatever you want... thats your right and superstition or religion.
QUOTE (3rdWitness @ Sep 13 2008, 05:43 PM)
The bible was written to instill morals, nothing wrong with good morals is there?
That's fine, but what about the bad morals?
QUOTE (3rdWitness)
If everyone is having sex with each other then it would only take one virulent disease to wipe out the entire population of mankind, practically overnight...
What is this, the 13th century? Ever heard of contraception? Ever heard of doctors and hospitals?
Oh that's right, the Catholic church condemns condoms, so you just might support that (and I don't even use the pill).
QUOTE (3rdWitness)
I think the bible was written for many reasons.
Yes, to justify Israel. And Jews.
QUOTE (Looking Up @ Sep 12 2008, 11:40 PM)
Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man,And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Coincidence?
Do you consider using reasoning and logic un-spiritual ... non-spiritual ... not spiritual?
Because I do not.
But there is a spirit in man,And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Coincidence?
Do you consider using reasoning and logic un-spiritual ... non-spiritual ... not spiritual?
Because I do not.
I get a real kick when people paste Bible verses proving their religion is valid...
QUOTE (Vissarion @ Sep 4 2008, 09:58 AM)
Whether you are a Christian or not we know the following to be true.
Homo sapiens has been walking around on this pretty blue planet for quite some time.
The estimates fluctuate between 100,000 and 250,000 years.
I had my DNA sequences last year ( I can highly recommend this to all. It will cost 100 bucks and you can do it through the national geographic website where they have collaborated with IBM) and it shows my father’s ancestral line and the migration route of today’s Europeans from the savannas of Africa through Mesopotamia, central Asia and into Europe.
We know that people have always worshipped deities, thousands and thousands of them.
Our earliest ancestors worshipped bears and sometimes they worshipped other human beings ( a mistake people still make today).
I, as an unbeliever, am fascinated by why people (all cultures throughout history) have worshipped gods.
In fact, I think this is the strongest argument that I have heard the religious make: i.e. people have always believed in god(s), so there must be something to it.
The following is the best theory I have heard to explain our religious impulse.
What made us so successful and what allowed us to go from being hunters and gatherers to creatures that farm and herd cattle and build civilizations and the space shuttle are our unusually large brains.
In fact, our brains, and therefore our skulls are so large that human birth is a problematic enterprise, as the mothers on this forum can testify to.
Many people, religious and otherwise, have elaborate theories about why people have ‘consciousness’ and they range from he usual religious explanations to the new-age woo-woo of ‘ a universal spirit’ or ‘ Hegelian clap-trap about a universe that is becoming self-aware.
All this sounds very interesting but no one has been able to make a solid argument that our mind, as shaped by our large brains in anything else but a survival ‘trick’ along the lines of the Cheetah’s phenomenal speed or the sticky tongue of a chameleon or the long neck of the giraffe which allows it to eat higher from a tree.
Our ability to think in the abstract and to plan and to evaluate the possible outcome of future actions is unique in the animal kingdom. As far as we know none of the other critters can do this.
This nifty little trick comes with a trade-off though and that is that we are also capable of contemplating the inevitability of our own death. Lions and wart-hogs are not burdened with this.
The unpleasantness of this mental state can be diminished, it seems, by people telling each other stories about a world after death and by a kaleidoscopic amount of supernatural entities that can influence our lives (and deaths) for better or for worse.
Following Occam’s Razor this seems to me the best explanation for the religious impulse.
V.
Homo sapiens has been walking around on this pretty blue planet for quite some time.
The estimates fluctuate between 100,000 and 250,000 years.
I had my DNA sequences last year ( I can highly recommend this to all. It will cost 100 bucks and you can do it through the national geographic website where they have collaborated with IBM) and it shows my father’s ancestral line and the migration route of today’s Europeans from the savannas of Africa through Mesopotamia, central Asia and into Europe.
We know that people have always worshipped deities, thousands and thousands of them.
Our earliest ancestors worshipped bears and sometimes they worshipped other human beings ( a mistake people still make today).
I, as an unbeliever, am fascinated by why people (all cultures throughout history) have worshipped gods.
In fact, I think this is the strongest argument that I have heard the religious make: i.e. people have always believed in god(s), so there must be something to it.
The following is the best theory I have heard to explain our religious impulse.
What made us so successful and what allowed us to go from being hunters and gatherers to creatures that farm and herd cattle and build civilizations and the space shuttle are our unusually large brains.
In fact, our brains, and therefore our skulls are so large that human birth is a problematic enterprise, as the mothers on this forum can testify to.
Many people, religious and otherwise, have elaborate theories about why people have ‘consciousness’ and they range from he usual religious explanations to the new-age woo-woo of ‘ a universal spirit’ or ‘ Hegelian clap-trap about a universe that is becoming self-aware.
All this sounds very interesting but no one has been able to make a solid argument that our mind, as shaped by our large brains in anything else but a survival ‘trick’ along the lines of the Cheetah’s phenomenal speed or the sticky tongue of a chameleon or the long neck of the giraffe which allows it to eat higher from a tree.
Our ability to think in the abstract and to plan and to evaluate the possible outcome of future actions is unique in the animal kingdom. As far as we know none of the other critters can do this.
This nifty little trick comes with a trade-off though and that is that we are also capable of contemplating the inevitability of our own death. Lions and wart-hogs are not burdened with this.
The unpleasantness of this mental state can be diminished, it seems, by people telling each other stories about a world after death and by a kaleidoscopic amount of supernatural entities that can influence our lives (and deaths) for better or for worse.
Following Occam’s Razor this seems to me the best explanation for the religious impulse.
V.
Thanks, I will order the DNA . . , very good information . . .
And some feedback from one of your friends . . . with that `religious impulse` ! (smile)
Jewish Holy Days Was Given To Moses By Jehovah, Himself. Its Correlation With The Human Gestation Period Is Not Only Remarkable; It Proves "intelligen, proves that there is a Creator God that guides the affairs of man.
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...c=15121&hl=
http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/news.asp
Amazing Discoveries (6/1/2006)
Jewish Holy Days: The Making of a Baby
By J. R. Church
Zola Levitt discovered an amazing correlation between Jewish Holy Days and the gestation of a human baby, from conception to birth. While preparing for writing a book for new parents, Zola contacted a gynecologist for some help in understanding gestation. During that session, the gynecologist showed him a series of pictures, pointed to the first one (an egg and a sperm) and said, "On the fourteenth day of the first month, the egg appears." The statement struck a chord in his Jewish mind because that was the date of Passover. He remembered the roasted egg on his family table every Passover. Now, for the first time, he knew what it meant! Not wanting to lead the gynecologist off from the subject at hand, he didn’t say anything, but continued to listen.
The gynecologist continued: "The egg must be fertilized within 24 hours, or it will pass on." This reminded Zola of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the seed or grain that "fell into the ground and died" in order to produce a harvest, the firstfruits of which was presented to God. Next, the gynecologist said, "Within two to six days, the fertilized egg attaches itself to the wall of the womb and begins to grow." And, sure enough, the Jewish evangelist thought, "The Feast of Firstfruits is observed anywhere from two to six days after Passover!"
Next, he was shown a photo of an embryo showing arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, toes, a head, eyes, etc. The caption said, "Fifty days." The gynecologist continued, "Around the fiftieth day, the embryo takes on the form of a human being. Until then, we don’t know if we have a duck or a tadpole." Zola thought, "That’s Pentecost!"
The next picture showed the embryo at seven months. The gynecologist said, "On the first day of the seventh month, the baby’s hearing is developed. For the first time, it can hear and distinguish sounds outside the womb." Zola knew that was the date for the Jewish Festival of Trumpets.
The gynecologist continued, "On the tenth day of the seventh month, the hemoglobin of the blood changes from that of the mother, to a self-sustaining baby." Zola thought, "That’s the Day of Atonement, when the blood was taken into the Holy of holies!"
Next, the gynecologist said, "On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, the lungs become fully developed. If born before then, the baby would have a hard time breathing." And Zola thought, "That’s the festival of Tabernacles, a time of celebrating the Temple, home of the Shekinah glory or Spirit of God." In the New Testament, the Greek term pneuma, normally translated as "breath," is applied to the "Holy Spirit."
Birth takes place on the tenth day of the ninth month. Eight days after birth, in Jewish families, a son is circumcised. Zola noted that the eight days of Hanukkah are celebrated right on schedule, nine months and ten days after Passover.
No human being could have understood the gestation period 3,500 years ago. The establishment of the Jewish Holy Days was given to Moses by Jehovah, Himself. Its correlation with the human gestation period is not only remarkable; it proves "Intelligent Design." It proves the existence of an intelligence beyond this world. It proves that there is a Creator God that guides the affairs of man.
QUOTE
Even Christian scientists, such as Francis Collins, who headed up the Human Genome Project, know that we have been around for over 100,000 years and that life on Earth has evolved from single celled organisms to the variety of life we see today over a period of 3.5 billion years.
You sure have a lot of faith in Francis don't you. You had better hope that he really was a scientist, that he really did pass the course, and especially....that he really did exist.
Scientist that do know their stuff, have backed up The Bible's accuracy for the past forty years, at least. The more advanced science becomes, the more it backs up "The Story of Creation and the Creator."
Man has always sought out gods and godesses from nature, including animals that they built temples to. Judeo-Christianity is the only religion where God revealed Himself to man. No, you will not get the "proof" you are looking for, because He wants us to walk by faith....not by sight. "Even the Gentiles are without excuse." Even those who were not Jews erected tombs to "the Unknown God," because they knew that man alone, could not have created everything to work together like it does.
Yes, the Bible was written by God....THROUGH...many men. That one man could make a prediction in the OT that came true 2500 years later, is not the product of good fiction writers. Nor could they possibly have known that there were seven days in a week, seven notes in music, seven colors in the rainbow, seven major continents, seven major seas, and that the smallest particle known to man is made up of seven parts, or that the entire Bible and The Universe, is made up of sevens. Faith gets a little help here.......
Every diety, false god, and religious leader is worshiped at their elaborate tombs, pyramids, and graves, by millions of yearly immigrants......EXCEPT JESUS!....His tomb is empty!!! He is not in it!! He is alive, in Heaven, on Earth, EVERYWHERE! He is here!
You had better hope old Francis Baby was for real, because you have gambled your soul on his/her integrity.
QUOTE
I think the bible was written for many reasons.
The whole Bible is one story. It is about Jesus. The Old Testament is the account of a nation, chosen by God, nurtured and protected by God, for the purpose of bringing one man, The Messiah, Jesus Christ, into the world. The New Testament describes his birth, His life, death, and resurrection, and follows the beginning of His Church, through the ages.......culminating in final Victory, in the Book of Revelations. It tells about the strangely beautiful life that He lived, the Message that He preached, and the many acts of kindness that he did. The Bible was written so that we may Know, Love, believe, Live, and follow Jesus.... into Everlasting Life.
QUOTE (3rdWitness @ Sep 13 2008, 06:43 PM)
Wow! This is a good one!! Don't even know where to start. The "V" has very good points. Religion literally is Superstition. Now with That said, if someone is so "indoctrinated" toward any specific belief... they will never admit it... and prove the very point.
I'm not sure the world was created in 7 days. Hmmmm While I Do believe in God, I'm not sure what God is... perhaps a collective of everything and everyone that has gone before us. The bible was written to instill morals, nothing wrong with good morals is there? If everyone is having sex with each other then it would only take one virulent disease to wipe out the entire population of mankind, practically overnight... I think the bible was written for many reasons. I was an avid believer in Kent Hovind's teachings til he went to jail, shouldn't have to explain that one. There are a lot of theories out there, you have to be open to hearing them without swallowing them hook line and sinker though. I think the bible is a conundrum... as it was meant to be, the problem is we're getting more intelligent or "discernable".
After all, lunatics were thought to be holy or to be in close contact with God... in many lands... why do you suppose such a similar thought existed in so many places, even simultaneously? Because they were in close coms with God? Or because it was a way for people to "accept" them within their cultures? Hmmm... which do you think is true do you suppose? Well anyway... believe whatever you want... thats your right and superstition or religion.
Don't even know where to start. The "V" has very good points. Religion literally is Superstition. Now with That said, if someone is so "indoctrinated" toward any specific belief... they will never admit it... and prove the very point.I'm not sure the world was created in 7 days. Hmmmm
While I Do believe in God, I'm not sure what God is... perhaps a collective of everything and everyone that has gone before us. The bible was written to instill morals, nothing wrong with good morals is there? If everyone is having sex with each other then it would only take one virulent disease to wipe out the entire population of mankind, practically overnight... I think the bible was written for many reasons. I was an avid believer in Kent Hovind's teachings til he went to jail, shouldn't have to explain that one. There are a lot of theories out there, you have to be open to hearing them without swallowing them hook line and sinker though. I think the bible is a conundrum... as it was meant to be, the problem is we're getting more intelligent or "discernable". After all, lunatics were thought to be holy or to be in close contact with God... in many lands... why do you suppose such a similar thought existed in so many places, even simultaneously? Because they were in close coms with God? Or because it was a way for people to "accept" them within their cultures? Hmmm... which do you think is true do you suppose? Well anyway... believe whatever you want... thats your right and superstition or religion.
.....if I only had a brain.......
QUOTE (sharon @ Sep 15 2008, 09:06 PM)
You sure have a lot of faith in Francis don't you. You had better hope that he really was a scientist, that he really did pass the course, and especially....that he really did exist.
All righty then.
Mr. Francis Collins is still very much alive and very much a Christian.
He also happens to be one of our best and brightest.
Enjoy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins_(geneticist)
QUOTE (sharon @ Sep 15 2008, 09:06 PM)
Scientist that do know their stuff, have backed up The Bible's accuracy for the past forty years, at least. The more advanced science becomes, the more it backs up "The Story of Creation and the Creator."
So wise of you not to try to back up that ridiculous claim with any, what do we call that again ?, oh yeah... data.
I, however, do care about data and here it is.
A study in the leading journal Nature by Larson and Witham in 1998 showed that of those American scientists considered eminent enough by their peers to have been elected to the National Academy of Sciences (equivalent to being a fellow of the Royal Society in Britain) only about 7 per cent believe in a personal God. This overwhelming preponderance of atheists is almost the exact opposite of the profile of the American population at large, of whom more than 90 per cent are believers in some sort of super-natural being. [...] It is completely as I would expect that American scientists are less religious than the American public generally, and that the most distinguished scientists are the least religious of all. [...]
Nature, 394(6691):313, 23 July 1998
"Leading Scientists Still Reject God"
A recent survey of members of the National Academy of Sciences showed that 72% are outright atheists, 21% are agnostic and only 7% admit to belief in a personal God
and........
The overwhelming majority of [fellows of the Royal Society], like the overwhelming majority of US Academicians, are atheists. Only 3.3 per cent of the Fellows agreed strongly with the statement that a personal god exists [...] while 78.8 per cent strongly disagreed [...]. There were a massive 213 unbelievers and a mere 12 believers.”
and.....
Scientific American, September 1999
"Scientists and Religion in America"
"Whereas 90% of the general population has a distinct belief in a personal god and a life after death, only 40% of scientists on the B.S. level favor this belief in religion and merely 10 % of those who are considered 'eminent' scientists believe in a personal god or in an afterlife."
QUOTE (sharon @ Sep 15 2008, 09:06 PM)
Man has always sought out gods and godesses from nature, including animals that they built temples to.
This sentence of yours, dear Sharon, should tell you everything you need to know about the man-made character of all deities.
QUOTE (sharon @ Sep 15 2008, 09:06 PM)
Judeo-Christianity is the only religion where God revealed Himself to man. No, you will not get the "proof" you are looking for, because He wants us to walk by faith....not by sight. "Even the Gentiles are without excuse." Even those who were not Jews erected tombs to "the Unknown God," because they knew that man alone, could not have created everything to work together like it does.
Yes, and unfortunately he did so not in the center of Paris in 1972 but in some backwater province of the 1st century Roman Empire to some illiterate peasants who didn't even know they lived on a spherical planet.
And this good news would get to China after another 1700 years or so.
A fine plan indeed.
One must conclude that if this entity exists that he is unbelievably lazy and inept, or just plain capricious.
QUOTE (sharon @ Sep 15 2008, 09:06 PM)
Yes, the Bible was written by God....THROUGH...many men.
Ah, I see.
You think it strange that I put my 'faith' in the words of living, educated men like Collins and yet you think it a sound idea to take the words of long-dead primitive Middle-Eastern goat herders who claimed to have written god's words.
QUOTE (sharon @ Sep 15 2008, 09:06 PM)
You had better hope old Francis Baby was for real, because you have gambled your soul on his/her integrity.
I recognize a threat of physical violence when I see one and it says a lot about people like you.
One can't help but notice that you seem to take some pleasure in the prospect of my punishment.
Somewhere in the back of your tiny little brain you must be hearing the sound of inevitability.
You and your fellow religionists know your time is up and I must say that gives me some pleasure.
What makes us different though, Sharon, is that I would never delight in the pain and misery of others and the fact that you and so many believers do shows the depravity of you and that sinister bronze-age Palestinian myth.
V.
QUOTE (sharon @ Sep 16 2008, 01:32 AM)
QUOTE (3rdWitness @ Sep 13 2008, 06:43 PM)
Wow! This is a good one!! Don't even know where to start. The "V" has very good points. Religion literally is Superstition. Now with That said, if someone is so "indoctrinated" toward any specific belief... they will never admit it... and prove the very point.
I'm not sure the world was created in 7 days. Hmmmm While I Do believe in God, I'm not sure what God is... perhaps a collective of everything and everyone that has gone before us. The bible was written to instill morals, nothing wrong with good morals is there? If everyone is having sex with each other then it would only take one virulent disease to wipe out the entire population of mankind, practically overnight... I think the bible was written for many reasons. I was an avid believer in Kent Hovind's teachings til he went to jail, shouldn't have to explain that one. There are a lot of theories out there, you have to be open to hearing them without swallowing them hook line and sinker though. I think the bible is a conundrum... as it was meant to be, the problem is we're getting more intelligent or "discernable".
After all, lunatics were thought to be holy or to be in close contact with God... in many lands... why do you suppose such a similar thought existed in so many places, even simultaneously? Because they were in close coms with God? Or because it was a way for people to "accept" them within their cultures? Hmmm... which do you think is true do you suppose? Well anyway... believe whatever you want... thats your right and superstition or religion.
Don't even know where to start. The "V" has very good points. Religion literally is Superstition. Now with That said, if someone is so "indoctrinated" toward any specific belief... they will never admit it... and prove the very point.I'm not sure the world was created in 7 days. Hmmmm
While I Do believe in God, I'm not sure what God is... perhaps a collective of everything and everyone that has gone before us. The bible was written to instill morals, nothing wrong with good morals is there? If everyone is having sex with each other then it would only take one virulent disease to wipe out the entire population of mankind, practically overnight... I think the bible was written for many reasons. I was an avid believer in Kent Hovind's teachings til he went to jail, shouldn't have to explain that one. There are a lot of theories out there, you have to be open to hearing them without swallowing them hook line and sinker though. I think the bible is a conundrum... as it was meant to be, the problem is we're getting more intelligent or "discernable". After all, lunatics were thought to be holy or to be in close contact with God... in many lands... why do you suppose such a similar thought existed in so many places, even simultaneously? Because they were in close coms with God? Or because it was a way for people to "accept" them within their cultures? Hmmm... which do you think is true do you suppose? Well anyway... believe whatever you want... thats your right and superstition or religion.
.....if I only had a brain.......
Of course you have a brain...
On the contrary.
Christian logic.
QUOTE (Neal @ Sep 16 2008, 09:32 AM)
QUOTE (sharon @ Sep 16 2008, 01:32 AM)
QUOTE (3rdWitness @ Sep 13 2008, 06:43 PM)
Wow! This is a good one!! Don't even know where to start. The "V" has very good points. Religion literally is Superstition. Now with That said, if someone is so "indoctrinated" toward any specific belief... they will never admit it... and prove the very point.
I'm not sure the world was created in 7 days. Hmmmm While I Do believe in God, I'm not sure what God is... perhaps a collective of everything and everyone that has gone before us. The bible was written to instill morals, nothing wrong with good morals is there? If everyone is having sex with each other then it would only take one virulent disease to wipe out the entire population of mankind, practically overnight... I think the bible was written for many reasons. I was an avid believer in Kent Hovind's teachings til he went to jail, shouldn't have to explain that one. There are a lot of theories out there, you have to be open to hearing them without swallowing them hook line and sinker though. I think the bible is a conundrum... as it was meant to be, the problem is we're getting more intelligent or "discernable".
After all, lunatics were thought to be holy or to be in close contact with God... in many lands... why do you suppose such a similar thought existed in so many places, even simultaneously? Because they were in close coms with God? Or because it was a way for people to "accept" them within their cultures? Hmmm... which do you think is true do you suppose? Well anyway... believe whatever you want... thats your right and superstition or religion.
Don't even know where to start. The "V" has very good points. Religion literally is Superstition. Now with That said, if someone is so "indoctrinated" toward any specific belief... they will never admit it... and prove the very point.I'm not sure the world was created in 7 days. Hmmmm
While I Do believe in God, I'm not sure what God is... perhaps a collective of everything and everyone that has gone before us. The bible was written to instill morals, nothing wrong with good morals is there? If everyone is having sex with each other then it would only take one virulent disease to wipe out the entire population of mankind, practically overnight... I think the bible was written for many reasons. I was an avid believer in Kent Hovind's teachings til he went to jail, shouldn't have to explain that one. There are a lot of theories out there, you have to be open to hearing them without swallowing them hook line and sinker though. I think the bible is a conundrum... as it was meant to be, the problem is we're getting more intelligent or "discernable". After all, lunatics were thought to be holy or to be in close contact with God... in many lands... why do you suppose such a similar thought existed in so many places, even simultaneously? Because they were in close coms with God? Or because it was a way for people to "accept" them within their cultures? Hmmm... which do you think is true do you suppose? Well anyway... believe whatever you want... thats your right and superstition or religion.
.....if I only had a brain.......
Of course you have a brain...
On the contrary.
Christian logic.
Lol. That's actually a funny cartoon. Of course, it begs the question why are non-believers/athiests so interested in what Christians believe, and, why would anyone have to prove anything? If there was actually nothing there, would they still believe?
Then it looks like you have given up all hope of standards.
QUOTE (Neal @ Sep 15 2008, 12:36 PM)
I get a real kick when people paste Bible verses proving their religion is valid...
Show me anything in the universe that man created. Out of nothing. How did it all get here? Where did the materials from the "big bang" come from? How did atoms appear out of nowhere? Can you say?
No Bible being quoted. Just simple questions.
Go.
It's okay to not know things, really.
Nothing.
It's a mystery to us how the things that already exist came to exist. We simply have no idea.
Just as it is a mystery to theists on how 'God' came to be. They simply have no idea.
I certainly think it's okay to make assumptions, do you think it's okay to make up explanations though? Do you think an incomprehensible explanation is better than no explanation at all?
Scientists don't give up hope on the things we don't know - religious people do. After all, they already define what we don't know and what we can't ever know. How do you think God creates stuff? Does he sharpen his fingers and imagine it? Do you understand how he does it? An incomprehensible explanation is no better than no explanation at all.
It's okay to not know things, really.
QUOTE (Looking Up @ Sep 16 2008, 03:24 PM)
Show me anything in the universe that man created.
Nothing.
QUOTE (Looking Up)
Out of nothing. How did it all get here? Where did the materials from the "big bang" come from? How did atoms appear out of nowhere? Can you say?
No Bible being quoted. Just simple questions.
Go.
No Bible being quoted. Just simple questions.
Go.
It's a mystery to us how the things that already exist came to exist. We simply have no idea.
Just as it is a mystery to theists on how 'God' came to be. They simply have no idea.
I certainly think it's okay to make assumptions, do you think it's okay to make up explanations though? Do you think an incomprehensible explanation is better than no explanation at all?
Scientists don't give up hope on the things we don't know - religious people do. After all, they already define what we don't know and what we can't ever know. How do you think God creates stuff? Does he sharpen his fingers and imagine it? Do you understand how he does it? An incomprehensible explanation is no better than no explanation at all.
It's okay to not know things, really.
3rdWitness -I think the bible was written for many reasons
Neal --> Yes, to justify Israel. And Jews.
The bible doesn't glorify nor flatter "Jews."
Nor any other ethnic/cultural segment of humanity.
The Jewish/Hebrew scripture is very critical of the ancient Jews.
It's not the record of a righteous people.
Its the record of the righteous God/Creator communicating
with flawed humanity through dealing with a slice of flawed humanity.
Neal --> Yes, to justify Israel. And Jews.
The bible doesn't glorify nor flatter "Jews."
Nor any other ethnic/cultural segment of humanity.
The Jewish/Hebrew scripture is very critical of the ancient Jews.
It's not the record of a righteous people.
Its the record of the righteous God/Creator communicating
with flawed humanity through dealing with a slice of flawed humanity.
Neal -
Neal-Christian logic.
The only "evidence" atheist have is that God does not appear on demand to his natural senses.
Which is really no evidence at all.
If you say you don't know, then I believe you.
If you declare you know there is no God, then I know you are a liar.
Neal-Christian logic.
The only "evidence" atheist have is that God does not appear on demand to his natural senses.
Which is really no evidence at all.
If you say you don't know, then I believe you.
If you declare you know there is no God, then I know you are a liar.
QUOTE (Neal @ Sep 16 2008, 05:17 PM)
It's okay to not know things, really.
Nothing.
It's a mystery to us how the things that already exist came to exist. We simply have no idea.
Just as it is a mystery to theists on how 'God' came to be. They simply have no idea.
I certainly think it's okay to make assumptions, do you think it's okay to make up explanations though? Do you think an incomprehensible explanation is better than no explanation at all?
Scientists don't give up hope on the things we don't know - religious people do. After all, they already define what we don't know and what we can't ever know. How do you think God creates stuff? Does he sharpen his fingers and imagine it? Do you understand how he does it? An incomprehensible explanation is no better than no explanation at all.
It's okay to not know things, really.
QUOTE (Looking Up @ Sep 16 2008, 03:24 PM)
Show me anything in the universe that man created.
Nothing.
QUOTE (Looking Up)
Out of nothing. How did it all get here? Where did the materials from the "big bang" come from? How did atoms appear out of nowhere? Can you say?
No Bible being quoted. Just simple questions.
Go.
No Bible being quoted. Just simple questions.
Go.
It's a mystery to us how the things that already exist came to exist. We simply have no idea.
Just as it is a mystery to theists on how 'God' came to be. They simply have no idea.
I certainly think it's okay to make assumptions, do you think it's okay to make up explanations though? Do you think an incomprehensible explanation is better than no explanation at all?
Scientists don't give up hope on the things we don't know - religious people do. After all, they already define what we don't know and what we can't ever know. How do you think God creates stuff? Does he sharpen his fingers and imagine it? Do you understand how he does it? An incomprehensible explanation is no better than no explanation at all.
It's okay to not know things, really.
See, now we might get somewhere.
I don't know either. I wasn't there millions of years ago or 6000 years ago. I've no clue what happened, nor how it happened. I look at the Biblical account of creatiion, for example, and go "Hmm. Interesting." I look at scientific discoveries and go "Hmmm. Interesting." Do I know the account in Genesis is literal? Nope. But I am convinced that God was there, and He was the one who set things in motion, no matter when it happened.
It's something that is a difficult thing to describe, and the only thing I can tell you is that if you encounter God, you know. That you know that you know. You can put it to test after test, and it stands just as real. And since my personal encounter was with one named Jesus, and in that context the Bible speaks of, I began looking at the Bible as my source because I got really curious about what this God might now expect of me, and whether He could start answering more of my 3 billions questions (rough estimate) that had been niggling around in my brain since childhood. And I began studying the Bible, and pieces started coming together, and questions were being answered. Not by people. By a book that's supposedly outdated and has no relevance to anything. And I am still putting it to the test to this day and as I get deeper into things, the more relevant it becomes, and the more I find out that things are exactly so. And I still have tons and tons of questions and there is much I do not know. So very much. Has it been easy? Certainly not. People who look for easy ought to make a wide berth around Christianity. Dealing with truth is never easy, because you are forced to become completely honest about how puny your thought processes are and about how much you simply do not know, and you have to let go of so many preconceived notions.
Are you afraid of putting God to the test for yourself? How can you find true answers if you won't make that step? Of course you'd have to first settle in your own self what you might do if He actually did reveal Himself to you. Otherwise you will probably continue to encounter the same you do now, which is a whole lot of silence.
There are people here on this board offering you water, and you argue that it's not water, it's poison, and you will not drink. Yet you watch others drinking it, and see that they are not dying. Suit yourself, then, and continue to be thirsty.
Sure, feel free to call me deluded and stupid, or worse. But at least I'm happily deluded, and at peace.
For argument's sake, if I die and it was all a matter of delusions, I will have lived a happy, fulfilled life with much love and an unbelievable sense of excitement and adventure. If it's real ... then well, yippee for me cause it's what I will have lived for all my life. If an alien comes to pick me up and sweeps me off in their spaceship to some crack planet, and everything is totally different than expected, I am going to ask for my money back.
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 16 2008, 08:05 PM)
3rdWitness -I think the bible was written for many reasons
Neal --> Yes, to justify Israel. And Jews.
The bible doesn't glorify nor flatter "Jews."
Nor any other ethnic/cultural segment of humanity.
The Jewish/Hebrew scripture is very critical of the ancient Jews.
It's not the record of a righteous people.
Its the record of the righteous God/Creator communicating
with flawed humanity through dealing with a slice of flawed humanity.
Neal --> Yes, to justify Israel. And Jews.
The bible doesn't glorify nor flatter "Jews."
Nor any other ethnic/cultural segment of humanity.
The Jewish/Hebrew scripture is very critical of the ancient Jews.
It's not the record of a righteous people.
Its the record of the righteous God/Creator communicating
with flawed humanity through dealing with a slice of flawed humanity.
Okay this is what I think.
Ever wonder how Christians (Catholics, Mormons) and occasionally Muslims will pass out pamphlets or ring your doorbell to convert you? (Jehobah's Witnesses.)
But why not Jews?
Why is it when you walk into a church for the 1st time, the pastor and people will welcome you with open arms, regardless of your race?
So why can't it be the same way when you walk into a synagogue? Why can't the rabbi welcome you like that if you're not Jewish?
Usually, if you marry into a Jew or are half-Jewish, they'll obviously make exceptions.
So what's in Judaism: that God spoke to the Jews, that the Jews are God's chosen people, that God grants the Jews, Israel.
If anything, I conclude that Judaism is a religion made by Jews where God loves Jewish people more than non-Jews.
So why on Earth would Jewish people want non-Jews into their religion and synagogue?
The Old Testament may have stories for sympathy on Jews, like how they were mistreated. This is reverse psychology, sorry if you didn't know.
The Jews will make a big deal over the Holocaust, even though it was only 6 million casualties (compared to the China Nanjing massacre, much larger).
And so and so forth.
Yes, the Old Testament were written by Jews, for there benefits, not for the rest of the planet.
The New Testament Jews (except for 2 books) may be something else.
Ask yourself this: look at how Orthodox Jews burn the Bibles of Messiahnic Jews (the Jews4Jesus).
What a coincidence that Orthodox Jews give birth to Orthodox Jews and Messiahnic Jews give birth to Messiahnic Jews. Why, be whatever religion your parents are!
So it seems the real reason why Jews don't accept Jesus is because they don't like Jesus (why, they executed him). Just like they did the czar of Russia, also a Christian.
So yes, I argue Christians interpret the Bible different than the Jews do. And I feel the way Jews interpret the Old Testament is more authentic than the way Christians interpret the Old Testament.
I mean, Christians interpreting what the Jews wrote, that's like the Chinese interpreting Mark Twain or Charles Dicken's novels, etc.
QUOTE
So yes, I argue Christians interpret the Bible different than the Jews do. And I feel the way Jews interpret the Old Testament is more authentic than the way Christians interpret the Old Testament.
I mean, Christians interpreting what the Jews wrote, that's like the Chinese interpreting Mark Twain or Charles Dicken's novels, etc.
I mean, Christians interpreting what the Jews wrote, that's like the Chinese interpreting Mark Twain or Charles Dicken's novels, etc.
...not a good analogy Neal....The Bible interprets itself, the novels were written by men.
Ok fine, women interpret the Bible better than men do.
.....yer funny.....
QUOTE (Neal @ Sep 17 2008, 09:10 AM)
QUOTE (John Prewett @ Sep 16 2008, 08:05 PM)
3rdWitness -I think the bible was written for many reasons
Neal --> Yes, to justify Israel. And Jews.
JP-The bible doesn't glorify nor flatter "Jews."
Nor any other ethnic/cultural segment of humanity.
The Jewish/Hebrew scripture is very critical of the ancient Jews.
It's not the record of a righteous people.
Its the record of the righteous God/Creator communicating
with flawed humanity through dealing with a slice of flawed humanity.
Neal-Okay this is what I think. Ever wonder how Christians (Catholics, Mormons) and occasionally Muslims
will pass out pamphlets or ring your doorbell to convert you? (Jehobah's Witnesses.) But why not Jews?
JP-The fact that Jews don't prostelize never bothered me.
Neal- Why is it when you walk into a church for the 1st time,
the pastor and people will welcome you with open arms, regardless of your race?
JP- Most "church" leaders are eager for more members. Warmly welcoming strangers makes all the sense in the world.
Sadly, human nature being what it is, the enthusiasm of the welcome often has more to do with ones financial standing [and general demeanor] than with race. And if you make known that you are there for the purpose of critical investigation, the smiles will most likely disappear.
Neal-So why can't it be the same way when you walk into a synagogue?
Why can't the rabbi welcome you like that if you're not Jewish?
JP-I've never walked into a synagogue. But over the years, as a general rule,
I've learned not to expect people to fall all over themself welcoming me anywhere.
Neal-Usually, if you marry into a Jew or are half-Jewish, they'll obviously make exceptions.
JP-Did you mean to write "marry into a Jew" ? Just curious. I'd have written "if you marry a Jew".
Neal - So what's in Judaism: that God spoke to the Jews, .........
JP-So ? God, not the Jews "called the shots".
Your fault finding should be with God. Not with the Jews.
Bear in mind that God's communication with the ancient Jews
is now availible for access by "whosoever" all over the world.
FYI that did not occur by accident.
Neal-that the Jews are God's chosen people, that God grants the Jews, Israel.
JP-What's wrong with God's special tool/creation nation having a small piece of land ?
Bear in mind that ALL land belongs to God by right of creation.
JP-Many things are "in Judaism". All ethnic religious groups have some sense of the history of their group.
No other group has as remarkable history as that of the Jews. Jews feel part of and are part of a distinct history going back to the far limits of recorded history. No other ethnic group was distinct 3000 years ago, then dispersed as a nation [2000 years ago] then reconstituted as a nation [60 years ago].
JP - The history of NO OTHER ethnic/nationality group has input directly from God like Jewish history.
JP-I [white/Southern American/prot/middle class Gentile] , for instance don't know and don't care what nationality/religion my blood ancestors were. Now that I am a Christian, I identify with Christians in history. Not a bloodline. Christians also have special interest in [and connection to] Jewish history [and present existence] in the context of God's great plan and activity of communicating with humanity.
Neal - If anything, I conclude that Judaism is a religion made by Jews
JP-"Jews" in general had no more to do with the creation of the Jewish religion
than you or I had to do with the writing of the American constitution.
We all are born into groups that we had nothing to do with creating.
Nor did any of us decide what group to be born into.
Neal - where God loves Jewish people more than non-Jews.
JP=To the degree that God's love of people varies,
it is due to the individuals degree of LOVE OF GOD. Ethnicity is irrelevant.
As OT and NT teach - Proverbs 8:17 "I love those who love me;
And those who diligently seek me will find me."
Neal-So why on Earth would Jewish people want non-Jews into their religion and synagogue?
JP-Beats me. I don't know that they do.
Neal-The Old Testament may have stories for sympathy on Jews,
like how they were mistreated.
This is reverse psychology, sorry if you didn't know.
JP-Lets see,.... Story of Joseph and then family going to Egypt. Put into slavery [mistreated]. But liberated by God. Empowered and used by God in a unique way. Made a unique, integral part of God's communication with humanity. There have been times in history when Jews were mistreated.
Followed by remarkable Jewish triumph [like Mid East 1948].
Neal-The Jews will make a big deal over the Holocaust, even though it was only 6 million casualties
(compared to the China Nanjing massacre, much larger).And so and so forth.
JP-You fault Jews for "making a big deal" over some roughly 6 million of them
being systematically murdered [recently on the historical scale] by a "civilized" nation ?
JP-Do you fault all groups for making "big deals" of times in history when they suffered unusual persecution ?
Neal-Yes, the Old Testament were written by Jews, for there benefits, not for the rest of the planet.
JP-No. "Jews" in general DID NOT write the OT. Just like Americans in general did not write the constitution.
Furthermore many people all over the planet DO derive great information and inspiration in the OT.
Neal-The New Testament Jews (except for 2 books) may be something else.
Neal-Ask yourself this: look at how Orthodox Jews burn the Bibles of Messiahnic Jews (the Jews4Jesus).
JP-I'm struck by the fact that arguments/attitudes revolving around Jesus,
recorded nearly 2000 years ago [in NT] are still being exhibited TODAY.
Neal-What a coincidence that Orthodox Jews give birth to Orthodox Jews and Messiahnic Jews
give birth to Messiahnic Jews. Why, be whatever religion your parents are!
JP-More conversion goes on that you appear to be aware of.
Neal-So it seems the real reason why Jews don't accept Jesus is because they don't like Jesus
(why, they executed him).
JP- SOME Jews didn't "accept Jesus." SOME Jews [mainly the temporal leaders] had Jesus crucified.
Then as now, there were Jews against Jesus and "Jews 4 Jesus".
Just as there are Americans against Jesus and Americans for Jesus.
Just as there are pro and con for Jesus in every national/ethnic group in the world.
Neal-Just like they did the czar of Russia, also a Christian.
JP - "they did" As if multitudes of ordinary Jews decided to [and participated in] murder the czar.
JP - You paint with too wide a brush.
Neal-So yes, I argue Christians interpret the Bible different than the Jews do.
Neal-And I feel the way Jews interpret the Old Testament
is more authentic than the way Christians interpret the Old Testament.
I mean, Christians interpreting what the Jews wrote,
that's like the Chinese interpreting Mark Twain or Charles Dicken's novels, etc.
JP- SOME Jews. Jews 4 Jesus have existed for 2000 years. And they are Christians.
Well it doesn't look like there are any counter-arguments...
QUOTE (Neal @ Sep 19 2008, 02:45 AM)
Well it doesn't look like there are any counter-arguments...
Your above is post # 46.
By chance did you notice post # 45 ?
QUOTE (Neal @ Sep 19 2008, 02:45 AM)
Well it doesn't look like there are any counter-arguments...
Neal, are you hiding ?
QUOTE (Vissarion @ Sep 9 2008, 05:03 AM)
A few things:
It isn't easy for me to post regularly since my posts are now first screened by the moderator.
As far as I can tell this is because I was dumb enough to use the 'F' word once and once only.
It is not possible to have a discussion with people who think that homo sapiens have been around for only 6000 years.
By the way, the term ‘modern humans’ isn’t a scientific term and is therefore totally useless in this discussion.
One is entitled to one's own opinions but not to one's own facts.
Even Christian scientists, such as Francis Collins, who headed up the Human Genome Project, know that we have been around for over 100,000 years and that life on Earth has evolved from single celled organisms to the variety of life we see today over a period of 3.5 billion years.
It will not have escaped the thoughtful reader that the arrogance of non-scientists who claim to know something (without any evidence, of course) that contradicts the findings of our best and brightest, like Mr. Collins, is truly astounding.
We live in a strange culture.
Apparently I am supposed to respect the opinions of just about anyone on any subject.
John Prewett, who seems to know absolutely nothing about biology, geology, paleontology and history, to name but a few disciplines, can appear among us and, with a rather hostile tone, declare the most grotesque nonsense.
Are there any limits here at all to what will be accepted as a valid contribution to a thoughtful discussion?
When someone states that the Earth is flat or that dinosaurs lived alongside humans that is just swell with all here ?
How about the claim that Elvis is still alive or that demons and witches roam these terrestrial planes?
Please, someone help me out here.
Do we call ‘nonsense’ here at all or will any kind of lunacy be accepted with a slight nod of the head and an utterance of; “well, that just might be true” ?
V.
It isn't easy for me to post regularly since my posts are now first screened by the moderator.
As far as I can tell this is because I was dumb enough to use the 'F' word once and once only.
It is not possible to have a discussion with people who think that homo sapiens have been around for only 6000 years.
By the way, the term ‘modern humans’ isn’t a scientific term and is therefore totally useless in this discussion.
One is entitled to one's own opinions but not to one's own facts.
Even Christian scientists, such as Francis Collins, who headed up the Human Genome Project, know that we have been around for over 100,000 years and that life on Earth has evolved from single celled organisms to the variety of life we see today over a period of 3.5 billion years.
It will not have escaped the thoughtful reader that the arrogance of non-scientists who claim to know something (without any evidence, of course) that contradicts the findings of our best and brightest, like Mr. Collins, is truly astounding.
We live in a strange culture.
Apparently I am supposed to respect the opinions of just about anyone on any subject.
John Prewett, who seems to know absolutely nothing about biology, geology, paleontology and history, to name but a few disciplines, can appear among us and, with a rather hostile tone, declare the most grotesque nonsense.
Are there any limits here at all to what will be accepted as a valid contribution to a thoughtful discussion?
When someone states that the Earth is flat or that dinosaurs lived alongside humans that is just swell with all here ?
How about the claim that Elvis is still alive or that demons and witches roam these terrestrial planes?
Please, someone help me out here.
Do we call ‘nonsense’ here at all or will any kind of lunacy be accepted with a slight nod of the head and an utterance of; “well, that just might be true” ?
V.
I'm sorry I missed this post. Just now ran across it.
My/the observation/contention that Vis deems "nonsense" is that
IF "humans" of [for instance] 200,000 years ago were really "FULLY" human,
then some 194,000 years ago they would have invented what fully humans have invented to date.
IF "humans" of [for instance] 200,000 years ago were really "FULLY" human,
then recorded history would go back some 199,000 years, instead of going back some 5000 years.
Of course Mr Vis believes nearly everyone on this forum is a fool
because nearly everyone on this forum believes in God/god.
I hope the moderators will