Who is Mystery Babylon?
We first must look at the synonyms for "Mystery Babylon" contained in Revelation.
1) The Woman
2) The Harlot
3) The Great City
From my studies of Revelation I have found that connections between the internal identities, has helped me in understanding who those identities are. One such example is "the Woman" who is first introduced to us in Revelation 12.
Rev.12: And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev.12:5 "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] His throne.
This Woman is clothed in the sun and has a crown of 12 stars, clearly identifying her as Israel; also she brings forth the Man Child who is Jesus Christ. This Woman is given protection in the wilderness from the pursuits of Satan until he turns his interests to "her seed" (the first born Church).
Rev.12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev. 12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
At that point the Woman in the wilderness disappears from the story until Rev. 17:3, where John has a vision of a Woman riding a scarlet Beast in the wilderness…. .And he is astonished!
Rev.17:3 "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns"
Why is John astonished?
I think it is because John recognizes the Woman riding the Beast in the wilderness as the same Woman (Israel) who God protected in the wilderness from the wrath of the Dragon.
When a person writes a story there is usually a consistency in the names of the identities of the characters, otherwise there would be confusion in understanding who's who. So if we take that consistency as relevant to the vision of Revelation, we then have both occurrences of the "Woman" being the same identity "Israel". If we then identify the Woman as being Israel, we also must conclude that the Great City is Jerusalem because the Woman is called the Great City, and the Great City is identified in Rev. 11:8 as the place where our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified.
Rev.11:8 "And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev.17:18 "And the woman which thou saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.
Now we have the "Woman" being the "Great City" which is Jerusalem which is "Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots", and if we read further into Revelation 18:21 we find that Mystery Babylon that Great City gets destroyed, which is exactly what happened to Jerusalem in 70 A.D.!
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
It all seems to fit like pieces of a puzzle.
Ann
Full Version: Who Is "mystery Babylon"?
QUOTE (Ann @ Aug 23 2008, 12:56 PM) 
Who is Mystery Babylon?
We first must look at the synonyms for "Mystery Babylon" contained in Revelation.
1) The Woman
2) The Harlot
3) The Great City
From my studies of Revelation I have found that connections between the internal identities, has helped me in understanding who those identities are. One such example is "the Woman" who is first introduced to us in Revelation 12.
Rev.12: And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev.12:5 "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] His throne.
This Woman is clothed in the sun and has a crown of 12 stars, clearly identifying her as Israel; also she brings forth the Man Child who is Jesus Christ. This Woman is given protection in the wilderness from the pursuits of Satan until he turns his interests to "her seed" (the first born Church).
Rev.12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev. 12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
At that point the Woman in the wilderness disappears from the story until Rev. 17:3, where John has a vision of a Woman riding a scarlet Beast in the wilderness…. .And he is astonished!
Rev.17:3 "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns"
Why is John astonished?
I think it is because John recognizes the Woman riding the Beast in the wilderness as the same Woman (Israel) who God protected in the wilderness from the wrath of the Dragon.
When a person writes a story there is usually a consistency in the names of the identities of the characters, otherwise there would be confusion in understanding who's who. So if we take that consistency as relevant to the vision of Revelation, we then have both occurrences of the "Woman" being the same identity "Israel". If we then identify the Woman as being Israel, we also must conclude that the Great City is Jerusalem because the Woman is called the Great City, and the Great City is identified in Rev. 11:8 as the place where our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified.
Rev.11:8 "And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev.17:18 "And the woman which thou saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.
Now we have the "Woman" being the "Great City" which is Jerusalem which is "Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots", and if we read further into Revelation 18:21 we find that Mystery Babylon that Great City gets destroyed, which is exactly what happened to Jerusalem in 70 A.D.!
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
It all seems to fit like pieces of a puzzle.
Ann
We first must look at the synonyms for "Mystery Babylon" contained in Revelation.
1) The Woman
2) The Harlot
3) The Great City
From my studies of Revelation I have found that connections between the internal identities, has helped me in understanding who those identities are. One such example is "the Woman" who is first introduced to us in Revelation 12.
Rev.12: And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev.12:5 "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] His throne.
This Woman is clothed in the sun and has a crown of 12 stars, clearly identifying her as Israel; also she brings forth the Man Child who is Jesus Christ. This Woman is given protection in the wilderness from the pursuits of Satan until he turns his interests to "her seed" (the first born Church).
Rev.12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev. 12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
At that point the Woman in the wilderness disappears from the story until Rev. 17:3, where John has a vision of a Woman riding a scarlet Beast in the wilderness…. .And he is astonished!
Rev.17:3 "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns"
Why is John astonished?
I think it is because John recognizes the Woman riding the Beast in the wilderness as the same Woman (Israel) who God protected in the wilderness from the wrath of the Dragon.
When a person writes a story there is usually a consistency in the names of the identities of the characters, otherwise there would be confusion in understanding who's who. So if we take that consistency as relevant to the vision of Revelation, we then have both occurrences of the "Woman" being the same identity "Israel". If we then identify the Woman as being Israel, we also must conclude that the Great City is Jerusalem because the Woman is called the Great City, and the Great City is identified in Rev. 11:8 as the place where our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified.
Rev.11:8 "And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev.17:18 "And the woman which thou saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.
Now we have the "Woman" being the "Great City" which is Jerusalem which is "Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots", and if we read further into Revelation 18:21 we find that Mystery Babylon that Great City gets destroyed, which is exactly what happened to Jerusalem in 70 A.D.!
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
It all seems to fit like pieces of a puzzle.
Ann
Ann, there are two women in the wilderness. One is Israel, the house of Israel....Christians. The other is the great whore and as you have pointed out....she is that great city Babylon. She was not destroyed in 70AD if that is what you are implying as her destruction is yet a future event.
All this is saying is that we will be (perhaps are now) in the wilderness where we will be taught by the Holy Spirit and by the evil spirit. They both feed us but we decide from which table to dine.
[quote name='Ann' date='Aug 23 2008, 12:56 PM' post='226487']
Who is Mystery Babylon?
We first must look at the synonyms for "Mystery Babylon" contained in Revelation.
1) The Woman
2) The Harlot
3) The Great City
Gideon7620 said, we had an extensive thread inwhich we covered it check this out you may find it interesting.
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9680
Who is Mystery Babylon?
We first must look at the synonyms for "Mystery Babylon" contained in Revelation.
1) The Woman
2) The Harlot
3) The Great City
Gideon7620 said, we had an extensive thread inwhich we covered it check this out you may find it interesting.
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9680
Hi Whirlwind, thank you for your response.
I see no Scriptural evidence for what your are saying about "Two Women in the wilderness"....as I said in my post, consistency in any presentation is of utmost importance especially when there is no glossary of identities. What we have to go on is internal continuity and context connections with the rest of the Bible.
The second statement you made "She was not destroyed in 70 A.D." has no merit in Scripture...in fact it is quite the opposite, as the verses I quoted imply.
Before we can truly interpret what Revelation is saying we must understand the context in which it sits!
Ann
QUOTE (Whirlwind)
Ann, there are two women in the wilderness. One is Israel, the house of Israel....Christians. The other is the great whore and as you have pointed out....she is that great city Babylon. She was not destroyed in 70AD if that is what you are implying as her destruction is yet a future event.
All this is saying is that we will be (perhaps are now) in the wilderness where we will be taught by the Holy Spirit and by the evil spirit. They both feed us but we decide from which table to dine.
All this is saying is that we will be (perhaps are now) in the wilderness where we will be taught by the Holy Spirit and by the evil spirit. They both feed us but we decide from which table to dine.
I see no Scriptural evidence for what your are saying about "Two Women in the wilderness"....as I said in my post, consistency in any presentation is of utmost importance especially when there is no glossary of identities. What we have to go on is internal continuity and context connections with the rest of the Bible.
The second statement you made "She was not destroyed in 70 A.D." has no merit in Scripture...in fact it is quite the opposite, as the verses I quoted imply.
Before we can truly interpret what Revelation is saying we must understand the context in which it sits!
Ann
QUOTE (Ann @ Aug 23 2008, 02:20 PM)
Hi Whirlwind, thank you for your response.
I see no Scriptural evidence for what your are saying about "Two Women in the wilderness"....as I said in my post, consistency in any presentation is of utmost importance especially when there is no glossary of identities. What we have to go on is internal continuity and context connections with the rest of the Bible.
The second statement you made "She was not destroyed in 70 A.D." has no merit in Scripture...in fact it is quite the opposite, as the verses I quoted imply.
Before we can truly interpret what Revelation is saying we must understand the context in which it sits!
Ann
QUOTE (Whirlwind)
Ann, there are two women in the wilderness. One is Israel, the house of Israel....Christians. The other is the great whore and as you have pointed out....she is that great city Babylon. She was not destroyed in 70AD if that is what you are implying as her destruction is yet a future event.
All this is saying is that we will be (perhaps are now) in the wilderness where we will be taught by the Holy Spirit and by the evil spirit. They both feed us but we decide from which table to dine.
All this is saying is that we will be (perhaps are now) in the wilderness where we will be taught by the Holy Spirit and by the evil spirit. They both feed us but we decide from which table to dine.
I see no Scriptural evidence for what your are saying about "Two Women in the wilderness"....as I said in my post, consistency in any presentation is of utmost importance especially when there is no glossary of identities. What we have to go on is internal continuity and context connections with the rest of the Bible.
The second statement you made "She was not destroyed in 70 A.D." has no merit in Scripture...in fact it is quite the opposite, as the verses I quoted imply.
Before we can truly interpret what Revelation is saying we must understand the context in which it sits!
Ann
I agree, we should understand the context and that all facets should fit together but I disagree when you put forth that she (mystery Babylon) was destroyed in 70 AD. Actually, I see no merit in Scripture for that assumption.
First woman -
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Notice her place is prepared by God and "they" will feed her....more than one. Who are they?
Isaiah 51:3 For the Lord shall comfort Zion: He will comfort all her waste places; and He will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, Which procedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning.
We see One that feeds in the wilderness and He is the Holy Spirit. Who is the other that feeds and who is the other woman?
Second woman -
Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery Babylon The Great, The Mother of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that Great City, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
As God calls His children into the wilderness so does Satan call his. It will be/is a time of temptation:
Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
The year 70AD was hardly the time she was killed, nor was it when the following WILL happen....
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Babylon is false religion and she won't be killed until the return of Christ. To believe that the two woman are one and the same isn't plausible. God prepares a place for the first woman and sends the Holy Spirit...that is not the whore. The first woman, whom He calls Zion is not the second woman riding the scarlet beast which is Satan.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Aug 23 2008, 05:49 PM)
QUOTE (Ann @ Aug 23 2008, 02:20 PM)
Hi Whirlwind, thank you for your response.
I see no Scriptural evidence for what your are saying about "Two Women in the wilderness"....as I said in my post, consistency in any presentation is of utmost importance especially when there is no glossary of identities. What we have to go on is internal continuity and context connections with the rest of the Bible.
The second statement you made "She was not destroyed in 70 A.D." has no merit in Scripture...in fact it is quite the opposite, as the verses I quoted imply.
Before we can truly interpret what Revelation is saying we must understand the context in which it sits!
Ann
QUOTE (Whirlwind)
Ann, there are two women in the wilderness. One is Israel, the house of Israel....Christians. The other is the great whore and as you have pointed out....she is that great city Babylon. She was not destroyed in 70AD if that is what you are implying as her destruction is yet a future event.
All this is saying is that we will be (perhaps are now) in the wilderness where we will be taught by the Holy Spirit and by the evil spirit. They both feed us but we decide from which table to dine.
All this is saying is that we will be (perhaps are now) in the wilderness where we will be taught by the Holy Spirit and by the evil spirit. They both feed us but we decide from which table to dine.
I see no Scriptural evidence for what your are saying about "Two Women in the wilderness"....as I said in my post, consistency in any presentation is of utmost importance especially when there is no glossary of identities. What we have to go on is internal continuity and context connections with the rest of the Bible.
The second statement you made "She was not destroyed in 70 A.D." has no merit in Scripture...in fact it is quite the opposite, as the verses I quoted imply.
Before we can truly interpret what Revelation is saying we must understand the context in which it sits!
Ann
I agree, we should understand the context and that all facets should fit together but I disagree when you put forth that she (mystery Babylon) was destroyed in 70 AD. Actually, I see no merit in Scripture for that assumption.
First woman -
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Notice her place is prepared by God and "they" will feed her....more than one. Who are they?
Isaiah 51:3 For the Lord shall comfort Zion: He will comfort all her waste places; and He will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, Which procedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning.
We see One that feeds in the wilderness and He is the Holy Spirit. Who is the other that feeds and who is the other woman?
Second woman -
Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery Babylon The Great, The Mother of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that Great City, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
As God calls His children into the wilderness so does Satan call his. It will be/is a time of temptation:
Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
The year 70AD was hardly the time she was killed, nor was it when the following WILL happen....
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Babylon is false religion and she won't be killed until the return of Christ. To believe that the two woman are one and the same isn't plausible. God prepares a place for the first woman and sends the Holy Spirit...that is not the whore. The first woman, whom He calls Zion is not the second woman riding the scarlet beast which is Satan.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
+, rome has 'harlot' daughters that are way past 'PROTESTANT' and are returning home to their mom, huh? But that matters none perhaps, for they are all declared to be the Abomination of the Earth by Inspiration, (Rev. 17:5) and that is Unity. Eph. 6:12
--Elijah
QUOTE (whirlwind)
Babylon is false religion and she won't be killed until the return of Christ. To believe that the two woman are one and the same isn't plausible. God prepares a place for the first woman and sends the Holy Spirit...that is not the whore. The first woman, whom He calls Zion is not the second woman riding the scarlet beast which is Satan.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
Where does it say in Revelation that "Mystery Babylon" is a false religion? It doesn't.
But it does say that "Mystery Babylon" is "The Woman" who is "The Great City" that is Jerusalem, that was destroyed....
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
History verifies the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.
The Woman in Rev. 12 is Isael and from Israel came the Messiah, and the firstborn Church, which is called the remnant of her seed....who Satan went to make war with.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The rest of Israel hardened their hearts, so the Woman who was protected in the wilderness became apostate Israel....they handed the Son of God over to the Romans to crucify, they were of their father the Devil.
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
IT ALL FITS.
Ann
QUOTE (Ann @ Aug 23 2008, 10:12 PM)
QUOTE (whirlwind)
Babylon is false religion and she won't be killed until the return of Christ. To believe that the two woman are one and the same isn't plausible. God prepares a place for the first woman and sends the Holy Spirit...that is not the whore. The first woman, whom He calls Zion is not the second woman riding the scarlet beast which is Satan.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
Where does it say in Revelation that "Mystery Babylon" is a false religion? It doesn't.
But it does say that "Mystery Babylon" is "The Woman" who is "The Great City" that is Jerusalem, that was destroyed....
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
History verifies the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.
The Woman in Rev. 12 is Isael and from Israel came the Messiah, and the firstborn Church, which is called the remnant of her seed....who Satan went to make war with.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The rest of Israel hardened their hearts, so the Woman who was protected in the wilderness became apostate Israel....they handed the Son of God over to the Romans to crucify, they were of their father the Devil.
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
IT ALL FITS.
Ann
Hi Ann,
I agree that it fits very well. We find further evidence supporting the idea that the Great Harlot Babylon is a symbol of apostate Jerusalem when we read the verse you quoted in context:
Revelation 18:21-24 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
The blue text is a direct reference to the prophecy against Jerusalem given just before the first time the temple was destroyed by Babyolon in 586 BC:
Jeremiah 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.
The red text fulfills the prophecy of Christ given just before He began the Olivet Discourse:
Matthew 23:33-37 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Thus we see multiple seemingly independent prophecies converging to identify Mystery Babylon as apostate Jerusalem. THe Bible is an integrated whole. All its pieces fit together with great precision.
Richard
Well l have to say...this is the first time l've ever heard scripture interpreted saying Israel is the whore of the whole world. But l don't read "that type" of web site... so maybe that's why.
QUOTE (Ann @ Aug 23 2008, 10:12 PM)
QUOTE (whirlwind)
Babylon is false religion and she won't be killed until the return of Christ. To believe that the two woman are one and the same isn't plausible. God prepares a place for the first woman and sends the Holy Spirit...that is not the whore. The first woman, whom He calls Zion is not the second woman riding the scarlet beast which is Satan.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
Where does it say in Revelation that "Mystery Babylon" is a false religion? It doesn't.
But it does say that "Mystery Babylon" is "The Woman" who is "The Great City" that is Jerusalem, that was destroyed....
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Ann, the above scripture is future...it has not yet happened but will in the end of days.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things WHICH MUST BE HEREAFTER."
The things John wrote after that are future events. To attribute Rev. 18:21 to what happened in 70 AD won't hold water. Notice the verse says...."shall be thrown down" which is future and yet you read that and say it is telling you that the "Great City was destroyed." It doesn't say that at all. It SHALL BE destroyed, not was destroyed.
QUOTE
[/b]History verifies the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.
Was Jerusalem destoyed? Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed and are gone...forever. Is Jerusalem that "great city?" The temple was destroyed but remember what Christ said:
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.
2. And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
The wailing wall still stands....the time He spoke of has not yet happened but will! To attribute what happend in 70 AD as the time Christ was speaking of when He said....For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be [Matt.24:21], isn't correct. What a Roman general accomplished in 70 AD is hardly the time Christ spoke of.
QUOTE
The Woman in Rev. 12 is Isael and from Israel came the Messiah, and the firstborn Church, which is called the remnant of her seed....who Satan went to make war with.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The rest of Israel hardened their hearts, so the Woman who was protected in the wilderness became apostate Israel....they handed the Son of God over to the Romans to crucify, they were of their father the Devil.
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
IT ALL FITS.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The rest of Israel hardened their hearts, so the Woman who was protected in the wilderness became apostate Israel....they handed the Son of God over to the Romans to crucify, they were of their father the Devil.
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
IT ALL FITS.
No, it doesn't fit at all. Yes, the woman of Revelation 12 is Israel and she is who Satan will make war with. Remember...this is yet future. It has not happened but will.
QUOTE
Where does it say in Revelation that "Mystery Babylon" is a false religion? It doesn't.
But it does say that "Mystery Babylon" is "The Woman" who is "The Great City" that is Jerusalem, that was destroyed....
But it does say that "Mystery Babylon" is "The Woman" who is "The Great City" that is Jerusalem, that was destroyed....
No Ann. It said...Mystery Babylon was that "great city" but it DID NOT SAY she was Jerusalem.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."
As you can see she is NOT Jerusalem nor has she been destroyed. As the first woman is not a literal "woman" so the second woman is not a literal city. And, both are in the wilderness.
To understand who or what this second woman is:
Mystery Babylon the great...the great city which reigneth over kings:
Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Who is this? Notice the similarities.
Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns upon his heads.
Mystery babylon, the great city is the woman that rides on the scarlet coloured beast and the beast is none other than....Satan, the great red dragon! And, that beast has seven heads and ten horns (in both verses) which means....horns denote power so this is power or control of seven heads...perhaps the seven continents or seven countries. The woman "reigneth over kings" and this is echoed in the second scripture...seven crowns upon his heads, meaning, rulers or reigning kings.
She, Mystery Babylon, the second woman, the great whore is.....Satan's way to rule this world. He uses four powers. Finance, Education, Politics and Religion (false religion). That is what this woman is....she is his power on this earth. His power to control and deceive. She is not yet dead!
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Aug 24 2008, 08:22 AM)
QUOTE (Ann @ Aug 23 2008, 10:12 PM)
QUOTE (whirlwind)
Babylon is false religion and she won't be killed until the return of Christ. To believe that the two woman are one and the same isn't plausible. God prepares a place for the first woman and sends the Holy Spirit...that is not the whore. The first woman, whom He calls Zion is not the second woman riding the scarlet beast which is Satan.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
Where does it say in Revelation that "Mystery Babylon" is a false religion? It doesn't.
But it does say that "Mystery Babylon" is "The Woman" who is "The Great City" that is Jerusalem, that was destroyed....
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Ann, the above scripture is future...it has not yet happened but will in the end of days.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things WHICH MUST BE HEREAFTER."
The things John wrote after that are future events. To attribute Rev. 18:21 to what happened in 70 AD won't hold water. Notice the verse says...."shall be thrown down" which is future and yet you read that and say it is telling you that the "Great City was destroyed." It doesn't say that at all. It SHALL BE destroyed, not was destroyed.
QUOTE
[/b]History verifies the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.
Was Jerusalem destoyed? Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed and are gone...forever. Is Jerusalem that "great city?" The temple was destroyed but remember what Christ said:
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.
2. And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
The wailing wall still stands....the time He spoke of has not yet happened but will! To attribute what happend in 70 AD as the time Christ was speaking of when He said....For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be [Matt.24:21], isn't correct. What a Roman general accomplished in 70 AD is hardly the time Christ spoke of.
QUOTE
The Woman in Rev. 12 is Isael and from Israel came the Messiah, and the firstborn Church, which is called the remnant of her seed....who Satan went to make war with.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The rest of Israel hardened their hearts, so the Woman who was protected in the wilderness became apostate Israel....they handed the Son of God over to the Romans to crucify, they were of their father the Devil.
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
IT ALL FITS.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The rest of Israel hardened their hearts, so the Woman who was protected in the wilderness became apostate Israel....they handed the Son of God over to the Romans to crucify, they were of their father the Devil.
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
IT ALL FITS.
No, it doesn't fit at all. Yes, the woman of Revelation 12 is Israel and she is who Satan will make war with. Remember...this is yet future. It has not happened but will.
QUOTE
Where does it say in Revelation that "Mystery Babylon" is a false religion? It doesn't.
But it does say that "Mystery Babylon" is "The Woman" who is "The Great City" that is Jerusalem, that was destroyed....
But it does say that "Mystery Babylon" is "The Woman" who is "The Great City" that is Jerusalem, that was destroyed....
No Ann. It said...Mystery Babylon was that "great city" but it DID NOT SAY she was Jerusalem.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."
As you can see she is NOT Jerusalem nor has she been destroyed. As the first woman is not a literal "woman" so the second woman is not a literal city. And, both are in the wilderness.
To understand who or what this second woman is:
Mystery Babylon the great...the great city which reigneth over kings:
Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Who is this? Notice the similarities.
Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns upon his heads.
Mystery babylon, the great city is the woman that rides on the scarlet coloured beast and the beast is none other than....Satan, the great red dragon! And, that beast has seven heads and ten horns (in both verses) which means....horns denote power so this is power or control of seven heads...perhaps the seven continents or seven countries. The woman "reigneth over kings" and this is echoed in the second scripture...seven crowns upon his heads, meaning, rulers or reigning kings.
She, Mystery Babylon, the second woman, the great whore is.....Satan's way to rule this world. He uses four powers. Finance, Education, Politics and Religion (false religion). That is what this woman is....she is his power on this earth. His power to control and deceive. She is not yet dead!
Elijah here: This was sent into my inbox by another poster which left NO name? Anyway, to be honest with your [posting], (which 'i' find not creditable) this one below is much more to my finding of 2 Cor. 4:2's warning against satan.
EARTH'S FINAL WARNING
CHAOS AWAITS MAJOR CITIES... RESULTING IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF A NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW. "AND THAT NO MAN MIGHT BUY OR SELL, SAVE HE THAT HAD THE MARK, OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST" REV. 13:17.
LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE DENIED - EVERY PRINCIPLE OF THE CONSTITUTION WILL BE REPUDIATED "AND ALL THE WORLD WONDERED AFTER THE BEAST" REV. 13:3.
John Paul II receives U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan for a private audience at the Vatican, Tuesday, Feb. 18, 2003.
The Pope holds an audience with Prime Minister Tony Blair in the Vatican library on February 22, 2003.
</SPAN>[color="#008000"]CHAOS AWAITS MAJOR CITIES... RESULTING IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF A NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW. "AND THAT NO MAN MIGHT BUY OR SELL, SAVE HE THAT HAD THE MARK, OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST" REV. 13:17.
LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE DENIED - EVERY PRINCIPLE OF THE CONSTITUTION WILL BE REPUDIATED "AND ALL THE WORLD WONDERED AFTER THE BEAST" REV. 13:3.
WHO IS THE WOMAN RIDING THE BEAST?
In prophetic language, the symbol of a Woman represents a church, as we find it in Jeremiah 6:1-2 or Ephesians 5:24-27. Also in the book of Revelation, it is described to us, by the symbol of a "woman" the pure and only church of Christ, that "keeps the commandments of God and has the faith of Jesus" (Rev. 12:6, 13-17; 14:12). Revelation describes another "woman" that is not of Christ, it is a rich, an arrogant, and a persecuting church, as we will see:
[/color]
"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings [world powers at large], which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast [in prophecy, a "beast" is a kingly power, Dan. 7:17,23]. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast" (Rev. 17:12-13).
In prophetic language, the symbol of a Woman represents a church, as we find it in Jeremiah 6:1-2 or Ephesians 5:24-27. Also in the book of Revelation, it is described to us, by the symbol of a "woman" the pure and only church of Christ, that "keeps the commandments of God and has the faith of Jesus" (Rev. 12:6, 13-17; 14:12). Revelation describes another "woman" that is not of Christ, it is a rich, an arrogant, and a persecuting church, as we will see:
[/color]
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet [red] color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand [the vessels of her rituals] full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of harlots and abominations of the earth" (Rev.17:4-5).
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints [even though she speaks of peace, she's murderous & persecuting Dan. 8:23-25], and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration" (Rev. 17:6).
"And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns" (Rev. 17:7).
"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, [historically, Rome has been the city of the seven mountains] on which the woman sitteth" (Rev. 17:9).
"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings [world powers at large], which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast [in prophecy, a "beast" is a kingly power, Dan. 7:17,23]. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast" (Rev. 17:12-13).
"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth [to sit means to control through world governments, as we have illustrated in this prophetic narrative], are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Rev 17:15).
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast [an ecclesiastical-political new- world order], until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman [the impure church ] which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Rev. 17:17-18). Note: With prophetic insight into the future, John was unmistakably hinting that there would be a power that would lust for both political and religious supremacy.
The late Jesuit and Vatican insider, Malachi Martin, wrote, "...he [John Paul II] insists that men have no reliable hope of creating a viable geopolitical system unless it is on the basis of Roman Catholic Christianity." The Keys of This Blood, page 492.
WHAT IS HER MARK?
"The OBSERVANCE of SUNDAY by the Protestants is an HOMAGE THEY PAY in spite of themselves to the AUTHORITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk about Protestantism of Today, page 213.
"The OBSERVANCE of SUNDAY by the Protestants is an HOMAGE THEY PAY in spite of themselves to the AUTHORITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk about Protestantism of Today, page 213.
"The Catholic Church, for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday." The Catholic Mirror, September, 1893.
"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act... And the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things." H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons. Nov 11, 1895.
"The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of the Sabbath observance is proof positive of that fact." The Catholic Record, London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.
"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann, CSSR, A Doctrinal Catechism, 1957 Edition, page 50.
John Paul II receives U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan for a private audience at the Vatican, Tuesday, Feb. 18, 2003.
"We all gather on the day of the SUN...Sunday on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in the light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal church." New Catholic Catechism (1993), pages 582, 583.
THE FIRST SUNDAY LAW
"The earliest recognition of the observation of Sunday as a legal duty is a constitution of Constantine [the first Roman "church-state" Emperor] in 321 A.D." Encyclopedia Britannica, Ninth Edition, Article "Sunday."
THE FIRST SUNDAY LAW
"The earliest recognition of the observation of Sunday as a legal duty is a constitution of Constantine [the first Roman "church-state" Emperor] in 321 A.D." Encyclopedia Britannica, Ninth Edition, Article "Sunday."
"FIRST DAY" BIBLE TEXTS
Millions of conscientious Christians attend church every Sunday, the first day of the week. They do so believing that somewhere, somehow, someone changed the day of worship. Either that, or they aren't aware that God set aside the seventh day, not the first day of the week, as His holy day. It is true, a change has been made. But by whom? We will discover that God made the Sabbath during the first week of earth's history. He set it aside as a weekly appointment between man and Himself - as a blessing, a refreshment, the day to especially remember, honor and worship Him as our Creator and King. If God changed His mind about His special appointed day with us, wouldn't He have recorded so momentous an adjustment in the Bible? There are only eight texts in the New Testament that mention the first day of the week. Please look at them carefully. (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1,2; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1; John 20:19; Acts 20:7, 8; I Corinthians 16:1, 2).
Millions of conscientious Christians attend church every Sunday, the first day of the week. They do so believing that somewhere, somehow, someone changed the day of worship. Either that, or they aren't aware that God set aside the seventh day, not the first day of the week, as His holy day. It is true, a change has been made. But by whom? We will discover that God made the Sabbath during the first week of earth's history. He set it aside as a weekly appointment between man and Himself - as a blessing, a refreshment, the day to especially remember, honor and worship Him as our Creator and King. If God changed His mind about His special appointed day with us, wouldn't He have recorded so momentous an adjustment in the Bible? There are only eight texts in the New Testament that mention the first day of the week. Please look at them carefully. (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1,2; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1; John 20:19; Acts 20:7, 8; I Corinthians 16:1, 2).
The first five texts simply state that the women came to the sepulcher early on the resurrection morning, and that Jesus rose from the dead. Now look up John 20:19 in your Bible. It tells us that Jesus appeared to the disciples later on the resurrection day. It says that the reason they were assembled was "for fear of the Jews."
No telling when the Jews might grab them and treat them to the same fate as their Master. They had seen their beloved Master die on Friday. They "returned and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." (Luke 23:56) And now they're hiding with the door shut for "fear of the Jews" (John 20:19). There's no mention of a change.
Pope John Paul II's envoy Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, left, meets with the former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, right, in Baghdad, Saturday Feb. 15, 2003
The seventh text is Acts 20:7,8. It says, "and upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper
chamber, where they were gathered together." This was a night meeting - the dark part of the first day of the week. In the Bible reckoning, the dark part of the day comes before the light part. "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called night. And the evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen. 1:5).
The dark part comes first. The Bible reckons a day from sunset to sunset. The seventh day begins at sunset Friday evening. The first day begins sunset Saturday evening. Paul is together with his friends on the dark part of the first day of the week which we call today "Saturday night". This is a farewell get-together. He preaches until midnight until poor Eutychus falls out of the window (Acts 20:9). Verse eleven says that they talked until the break of day, and then Paul departed. Verse thirteen shows that Paul spent that Sunday morning traveling to Assos. There's nothing here either concerning a change of the Sabbath.
The New English Bible translates this text like this: "On Saturday night, in our assembly for the breaking of the bread, Paul who was to leave the next day, addressed them, and went on speaking until midnight" (Acts 20:7). The last text that mentions the first day of the week is in I Corinthians 16:1, 2. It says: "Now concerning the
collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." Verse three tells us that he will bring the offering to Jerusalem. As he had done in Galatia, so
Paul also requested of those in Corinth to have a collection all ready when he would come to take it to the poor saints in Jerusalem. There's nothing in the text about a church service, but each person is to "lay by him in store." The first day of the week was the best time for people to set some money aside, because later in the week, it would be spent. That's also true today! Paul requested this so "that there be no gathering when I come" (I Corinthians 16:2).
SATURDAY IS THE SABBATH...THE 7TH
DAY... THE LORD'S DAY...Beware of SUNDAY...Counterfeit Sabbath...the mark of the beast that will be enforced as the day of rest and worship by a national Sunday law! Exodus 20:8-11, Ezekiel 20:20, Daniel 7:25, Matthew 12:8, Luke 23:56, Revelation 13:16-17 & 14:7-12.
chamber, where they were gathered together." This was a night meeting - the dark part of the first day of the week. In the Bible reckoning, the dark part of the day comes before the light part. "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called night. And the evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen. 1:5).
The dark part comes first. The Bible reckons a day from sunset to sunset. The seventh day begins at sunset Friday evening. The first day begins sunset Saturday evening. Paul is together with his friends on the dark part of the first day of the week which we call today "Saturday night". This is a farewell get-together. He preaches until midnight until poor Eutychus falls out of the window (Acts 20:9). Verse eleven says that they talked until the break of day, and then Paul departed. Verse thirteen shows that Paul spent that Sunday morning traveling to Assos. There's nothing here either concerning a change of the Sabbath.
The New English Bible translates this text like this: "On Saturday night, in our assembly for the breaking of the bread, Paul who was to leave the next day, addressed them, and went on speaking until midnight" (Acts 20:7). The last text that mentions the first day of the week is in I Corinthians 16:1, 2. It says: "Now concerning the
collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." Verse three tells us that he will bring the offering to Jerusalem. As he had done in Galatia, so
Paul also requested of those in Corinth to have a collection all ready when he would come to take it to the poor saints in Jerusalem. There's nothing in the text about a church service, but each person is to "lay by him in store." The first day of the week was the best time for people to set some money aside, because later in the week, it would be spent. That's also true today! Paul requested this so "that there be no gathering when I come" (I Corinthians 16:2).
SATURDAY IS THE SABBATH...THE 7TH
DAY... THE LORD'S DAY...Beware of SUNDAY...Counterfeit Sabbath...the mark of the beast that will be enforced as the day of rest and worship by a national Sunday law! Exodus 20:8-11, Ezekiel 20:20, Daniel 7:25, Matthew 12:8, Luke 23:56, Revelation 13:16-17 & 14:7-12.
"The Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day" (Mat. 12:8). "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God" (Fourth Commandment, Exodus 20:8-11). "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James... very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun...
The Pope holds an audience with Prime Minister Tony Blair in the Vatican library on February 22, 2003.
And entering into the sepulcher, they saw a young man...And he saith unto them, be not affrighted; Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: He is risen." (Mark 16:1-6).
Everyone knows that Sunday was the resurrection day. "The Sabbath was past" when it dawned. Thus it is evident that the Sabbath is Saturday, the day before Sunday. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and e a r t h pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5 : 1 8 ). "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27).
"And that day was the preparation and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how His body was laid. And they returned and prepared spices and ointments; and rested thesabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:54-56).
President Bush traveled to Rome to meet the Pope.
Notice that Luke, a non-Jewish biblical writer, approximately 37 years AFTER the resurrection of Christ, still called the Sabbath (the seventh day of the week) a Commandment of God.
"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scripture" (Acts 17:2). "And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks" (Acts 18:4). "There remaineth therefore a rest [Sabbath] to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:9, 10). "For he spake in a certain place of the
seventh day...And God did rest the seventh day from all his works," "And blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it" (Hebrews 4:4 and Exodus 20:11).
seventh day...And God did rest the seventh day from all his works," "And blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it" (Hebrews 4:4 and Exodus 20:11).
In the New Testament, there are no fewer than 59 references to the Sabbath. The book of Acts records 84 Sabbaths on which the Apostle Paul and his associates held religious services. Yet there is not ONE word in the entire Bible authorizing Sunday keeping.
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth NOT his Commandments, IS A LIAR, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM" (1John 2:4). "If you love Me, KEEP my commandments" (John 14:15). "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet OFFEND IN ONE POINT, he is GUILTY OF ALL" (James 2:10). The law that the Bible refers to, here, is the law of the TEN COMMANDMENTS, which were written by God's finger (James 2:8-11, Mathew 5:17- 21, Exodus 31:18, Deuteronomy 10:1-4).
"And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up for to read" (Luke 4:16). "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the Commandments" (Matthew 19:17). "God blessed the SEVENTH DAY AND SANCTIFIED IT" (Genesis 2:3). "He hath blessed and I cannot reverse it" (Numbers 23:20) "For thou blessest, O Lord, and it shall be blessed for ever" (I Chronicles 17:27).
French Cardinal Roger Etchegary, representing the Papal envoy, with Yasser Arafat.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). "Many will say to Me that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy Name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: Depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:22, 23).
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain; and it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith the LORD " (Isaiah 66:22, 23). According to Colossians 2:14-17, the sacrifices with its ceremonies and rituals as registered in Leviticus 23 and other texts, were nailed [abolished] on the cross. But not the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment that is Eternal, as indicated in the above Bible verses.
A CALL TO ALL MEN—REVELATION 14
"Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Rev. 14:7. "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which
is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9-10.
"Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Rev. 14:7. "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which
is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9-10.
For many years, we have seen Sunday closing laws on local, state, and municipal levels. Men are forced to close certain kinds of
businesses, and are prohibited from some secular activities on the first working day [Sunday] of the week, lest they be fined or imprisoned. And the situation will grow worse in the days ahead, "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Read Rev.
13:15-17). But there is victory for those who will stand true to the God of heaven, because there is overcoming power for those who will "keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12.
businesses, and are prohibited from some secular activities on the first working day [Sunday] of the week, lest they be fined or imprisoned. And the situation will grow worse in the days ahead, "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Read Rev.
13:15-17). But there is victory for those who will stand true to the God of heaven, because there is overcoming power for those who will "keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12.
"Trust and obey, for there's no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Aug 24 2008, 08:22 AM)
QUOTE (Ann @ Aug 23 2008, 10:12 PM)
QUOTE (whirlwind)
Babylon is false religion and she won't be killed until the return of Christ. To believe that the two woman are one and the same isn't plausible. God prepares a place for the first woman and sends the Holy Spirit...that is not the whore. The first woman, whom He calls Zion is not the second woman riding the scarlet beast which is Satan.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
There are two women. One is Israel and the other is an abomination - false religion, the great city that this world loves and worships.
Where does it say in Revelation that "Mystery Babylon" is a false religion? It doesn't.
But it does say that "Mystery Babylon" is "The Woman" who is "The Great City" that is Jerusalem, that was destroyed....
Rev.18:21 "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Ann, the above scripture is future...it has not yet happened but will in the end of days.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things WHICH MUST BE HEREAFTER."The things John wrote after that are future events. To attribute Rev. 18:21 to what happened in 70 AD won't hold water. Notice the verse says...."shall be thrown down" which is future and yet you read that and say it is telling you that the "Great City was destroyed." It doesn't say that at all. It SHALL BE destroyed, not was destroyed.
It was future at the time it was written, and became past after it was fulfilled, just like all the other prophecies that have been fulfilled. For example, Christ said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will [in the future] raise it up" (John 2:19). It was still future when He spoke it, but became past when He was resurrected.
We know with perfect certainty that Christ was talking about the first century Temple in the Olivet Discourse:
Luke 21:5-6 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold [here now in the first century], the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Also, the Bible uses the phrase "last days" and "last hour" to refer to the first century:
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these [present, currently happening in the first century] last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is [presently, now, in the first century] the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that is [presently, now, in the first century] the last hour.
And there are many other examples of course.
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Aug 24 2008, 08:22 AM)
QUOTE
[/b]History verifies the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.
Was Jerusalem destoyed? Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed and are gone...forever. Is Jerusalem that "great city?" The temple was destroyed but remember what Christ said:
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.The wailing wall still stands....the time He spoke of has not yet happened but will! To attribute what happend in 70 AD as the time Christ was speaking of when He said....For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be [Matt.24:21], isn't correct. What a Roman general accomplished in 70 AD is hardly the time Christ spoke of.
2. And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
I think there is a huge problem with that interpretation. We know that Jesus was talking about the destruction of the Temple. The "wailing wall" is a mere retaining wall holding up some dirt of the temple mount. To deny that the temple was destroyed because a retaining wall remains denies the central meaning of the prophecy. The fulfillment of the prophecy of the destruction of the Temple is one of the most certain facts of history. Furthermore, it is part of the integrated prophetic complex of mutually confirming Scriptures. Daniel's prophecy links the coming of the Messiah with the destruction of the Temple:
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
This was confirmed by Christ in the Olivet Discourse:
Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
The "days of vengeance" is another way to refer to the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" and the "Great Tribulation." The destruction that God poured out upon Jerusalem through Titus is exactly the same as the destruction that God poured out through Babylon when He destroyed His Temple the first time in 586 BC. The Jews themselves recognized it as the Judgment of God according to Josephus (Wars VI.2):
And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."
Those words were written by a JEW in the FIRST CENTURY. They knew exactly what happened to them and why. There never has been nor can there ever be another time like the first century when the entire Jewish world was totally destroyed, and the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ, and the Old Covenant decayed, waxed old, and vanished away (Hebrews 8:13).
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Aug 24 2008, 08:22 AM)
QUOTE
The Woman in Rev. 12 is Isael and from Israel came the Messiah, and the firstborn Church, which is called the remnant of her seed....who Satan went to make war with.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The rest of Israel hardened their hearts, so the Woman who was protected in the wilderness became apostate Israel....they handed the Son of God over to the Romans to crucify, they were of their father the Devil.
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
IT ALL FITS.
Rev. 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
The rest of Israel hardened their hearts, so the Woman who was protected in the wilderness became apostate Israel....they handed the Son of God over to the Romans to crucify, they were of their father the Devil.
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
IT ALL FITS.
No, it doesn't fit at all. Yes, the woman of Revelation 12 is Israel and she is who Satan will make war with. Remember...this is yet future. It has not happened but will.
It would be an error to merely assume it is still future. We need to read the Bible and see what it really says. The woman in Rev 12 is a symbol of first century Israel (which is exactly how it would have been intepreted by first century Christians to whom it was addressed) who brought forth the Man Child who is clearly Christ who rules with a "rod of iron."
It is not difficult to acquire a clear, correct, and certain understanding of the biblical prophecies. There is one simple rule that will immediately wipe out the vast majority of errors. I call it the Fundamental Principle of Biblical Hermeneutics, which states that anything taught as doctrine must be supported by at least two or three clear and unambiguous passages. The main things are the plain things. We can be certain that if God did not establish a teaching with two or three solid witnesses in Scripture then He did not intend for us to teach it as Biblical truth. We know this because God has given us this principle in a way that follows this principle, that is, He repeated it in both the Old and the New Testaments:
- Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
- Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
- 2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
- John 8:17-18 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
The fourth example from John 8 is the most significant, because it shows how Christ Himself used this principle in disputes with the Jewish leaders (see also John 5). This principle is fundamental not only to Biblical Hermeneutics, but to Epistimology in general. How do we know anything? When it is confirmed and corroborated by a variety of witnesses. This is true whether studying the Bible or Biology. Application of this rule immediately clears out the mountain of debris accumulated by centuries of unbridled speculations and lays bare the bedrock of the Biblical Doctrines of Eschatology.
Richard
QUOTE (BibleWheel @ Aug 24 2008, 11:33 AM)
It was future at the time it was written, and became past after it was fulfilled, just like all the other prophecies that have been fulfilled. For example, Christ said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will [in the future] raise it up" (John 2:19). It was still future when He spoke it, but became past when He was resurrected.
We know with perfect certainty that Christ was talking about the first century Temple in the Olivet Discourse:
Also, the Bible uses the phrase "last days" and "last hour" to refer to the first century:
We know with perfect certainty that Christ was talking about the first century Temple in the Olivet Discourse:
Luke 21:5-6 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold [here now in the first century], the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Also, the Bible uses the phrase "last days" and "last hour" to refer to the first century:
I must disagree. The "last days" and "last hour" is just that....the end of this age. That did not happen in 70 AD. Remember, when Christ sat down with His disciples they asked....
Matthew 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE AND WHAT SHALL BE THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD?"
You cannot place what was taught in the Olivet prophecies in any time frame other than...THE END OF THE WORLD! That did not happen in 70 AD.
QUOTE
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Aug 24 2008, 08:22 AM)
QUOTE
[/b]History verifies the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.
Was Jerusalem destoyed? Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed and are gone...forever. Is Jerusalem that "great city?" The temple was destroyed but remember what Christ said:
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.The wailing wall still stands....the time He spoke of has not yet happened but will! To attribute what happend in 70 AD as the time Christ was speaking of when He said....For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be [Matt.24:21], isn't correct. What a Roman general accomplished in 70 AD is hardly the time Christ spoke of.
2. And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
I think there is a huge problem with that interpretation. We know that Jesus was talking about the destruction of the Temple. The "wailing wall" is a mere retaining wall holding up some dirt of the temple mount. To deny that the temple was destroyed because a retaining wall remains denies the central meaning of the prophecy. The fulfillment of the prophecy of the destruction of the Temple is one of the most certain facts of history. Furthermore, it is part of the integrated prophetic complex of mutually confirming Scriptures. Daniel's prophecy links the coming of the Messiah with the destruction of the Temple:
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Please reread the scripture, the part that says.....and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the BUILDINGS OF THE TEMPLE.....not just the temple. The wailing wall is part of the "buildings of the temple." I did not deny that the temple was destroyed for certainly...it was but....He said, "There shall not be left here one stone upon another" and there remains...one stone upon another in the "buildings of the temple!"
Why do you attribute the Daniel scripture with the time of the temple being destroyed? Was the Messiah cut off in 70 AD, was there a flood? What "prince" destroyed the city and sanctuary?
QUOTE
This was confirmed by Christ in the Olivet Discourse:
The "days of vengeance" is another way to refer to the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" and the "Great Tribulation." The destruction that God poured out upon Jerusalem through Titus is exactly the same as the destruction that God poured out through Babylon when He destroyed His Temple the first time in 586 BC. The Jews themselves recognized it as the Judgment of God according to Josephus (Wars VI.2):
Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
The "days of vengeance" is another way to refer to the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" and the "Great Tribulation." The destruction that God poured out upon Jerusalem through Titus is exactly the same as the destruction that God poured out through Babylon when He destroyed His Temple the first time in 586 BC. The Jews themselves recognized it as the Judgment of God according to Josephus (Wars VI.2):
I can't believe you truly think that event in 70 AD was what Christ spoke of. Remember, He said it would be the END OF THE WORLD.
And, thank you on your lesson of "Fundamental Principle of Biblical Hermeneutics."
QUOTE (Miki @ Aug 24 2008, 06:52 AM)
Well l have to say...this is the first time l've ever heard scripture interpreted saying Israel is the whore of the whole world. But l don't read "that type" of web site... so maybe that's why.
Many folks stumble over the meaning of "whole world." How do you understand this phrse as used by Paul in Romans?
Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.Richard
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Aug 24 2008, 12:45 PM)
QUOTE (BibleWheel @ Aug 24 2008, 11:33 AM)
It was future at the time it was written, and became past after it was fulfilled, just like all the other prophecies that have been fulfilled. For example, Christ said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will [in the future] raise it up" (John 2:19). It was still future when He spoke it, but became past when He was resurrected.
We know with perfect certainty that Christ was talking about the first century Temple in the Olivet Discourse:
We know with perfect certainty that Christ was talking about the first century Temple in the Olivet Discourse:
Luke 21:5-6 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold [here now in the first century], the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.Also, the Bible uses the phrase "last days" and "last hour" to refer to the first century:
I must disagree. The "last days" and "last hour" is just that....the end of this age. That did not happen in 70 AD. Remember, when Christ sat down with His disciples they asked....
Matthew 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE AND WHAT SHALL BE THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD?"You cannot place what was taught in the Olivet prophecies in any time frame other than...THE END OF THE WORLD! That did not happen in 70 AD.
Hey there whirlwind,
It is good to be chatting.
I don't understand how you can say that the "last days" and "last hour" are still future when the Apostles Paul and Peter said otherwise. Could you explain exactly what John meant when he wrote that "it IS the last hour" back in the first century? This interpretation is confirmed by Hebrews which said that Christ had come "in the last days" again speaking of the first century. And it is confirmed again in Peter's pentecostal sermon:
Acts 2:16-22 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The exact phrase yom YHWH hagadol v'hanora (translated as "great and notable day of the Lord") appears twice in the OT. Once in the verse from Joel that Peter was quoting, and again near the very end of the last book of the OT:
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
We know that this was fulfilled in John the Baptist:
Matthew 11:7-15 As they departed, Jesus began to say to the multitudes concerning John: "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 "But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft garments? Indeed, those who wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 "But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. 10 "For this is he of whom it is written: 'Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.' 11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 "And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Christ Himself connected this with the previous chapter of Malachi:
Malachi 3:1-3 "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.
We all know that Christ the Lord YHWH came to His Temple in 30 AD. He was rejected and killed, but not before He warned of the JUDGMENT that would be poured out upon that first century generation that had rejected Him in the Day of His Visitation, the Day of His Coming which connects all the prophecies that I have been quoting:
Matthew 23:33-36 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
When was this prophecy fulfilled? The answer was obvious. It was fulfilled when God destroyed His Temple and His City and drove the Jews from Jerusalem. This is confirmed by the prophecy in Revelation which links all the other prophecies together with perfect
Revelation 18:19-24 19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.' 20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!" 21 ¶ Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22 "The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."
The first occurrence of "great city" in Revelation is found in reference to apostate Jerusalem:
Revelation 11:8 ... the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
The blue text is a direct quote from the prophecy the God Almighty spoke against Jerusalem the first time He destroyed His Temple in 586 BC:
Jeremiah 25:10-11 'Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 'And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
I could go on and on and on and on. These are just a tiny sampling of the hundreds of verses that form the integrated prophetic complex of Biblical Eschatology. They all mutually confirm each other. The destruction of apostate Jerusalem was the "Great Tribulation" and "Time of Jacob's Trouble." It was the end of the age that was governed by the Old Covanant. We now live in the Messianic Age governed by the New Covenant.
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Aug 24 2008, 12:45 PM)
Why do you attribute the Daniel scripture with the time of the temple being destroyed? Was the Messiah cut off in 70 AD, was there a flood? What "prince" destroyed the city and sanctuary?
The Messiah was cut off in 30 AD in the midst of the 70th week. The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD came forty years later. The flood refers to the Roman armies - God used this symbol in the OT:
Jeremiah 47:1-3 The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Philistines, before that Pharaoh smote Gaza. 2 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, waters rise up out of the north, and shall be an overflowing flood, and shall overflow the land, and all that is therein; the city, and them that dwell therein: then the men shall cry, and all the inhabitants of the land shall howl. 3 At the noise of the stamping of the hoofs of his strong horses, at the rushing of his chariots, and at the rumbling of his wheels, the fathers shall not look back to their children for feebleness of hands;
The meaning of the symbol of the flood seems perfectly clear to me. It is established by God in Scripture.
QUOTE (whirlwind @ Aug 24 2008, 12:45 PM)
QUOTE
This was confirmed by Christ in the Olivet Discourse:
Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.The "days of vengeance" is another way to refer to the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" and the "Great Tribulation." The destruction that God poured out upon Jerusalem through Titus is exactly the same as the destruction that God poured out through Babylon when He destroyed His Temple the first time in 586 BC. The Jews themselves recognized it as the Judgment of God according to Josephus (Wars VI.2):
I can't believe you truly think that event in 70 AD was what Christ spoke of. Remember, He said it would be the END OF THE WORLD.
And, thank you on your lesson of "Fundamental Principle of Biblical Hermeneutics."
It was not the "end of the world" in the way modern folks think. It was the "suntelia" (consummation) of the "aion" (age). We know this happened in the first century because that's what the Bible says.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
And this forms a powerful link between the Olivet Discourse and Daniel. In the Olivet Discourse, the disciples asked about the "end" (suntelia) of the age (aion). The Jews alive in the first century, the word "suntelia" would have immediately evoked Chapter 9 of the Book of Daniel (LXX) because it appears there EIGHT TIMES in Dan 9:24-27! There is no doubt that Christ was referring to the prophecies of Daniel. There is no doubt that both He and Daniel were referring to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. This is all confirmed by Daniel, Christ, and History. Daniel said it would all be accomplished when the Jews were scattered out of Jerusalem:
Daniel 12:6-7 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Christ confirmed Daniel's prophecy:
Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.And history confirms it all. Everywhere I look, I see one verse simulataneoussly confirming two or three other verses whith each of those confirming more and more other verese. It is a nuclear "chain reaction" that fuels the blazing core of the integrated prophetic complex of the Holy Bible. God has given us His Word in a way that we could arive at Truth with Certainty.
Richard
Hey Biblewheel. Interesting notes, thanks.
Question:
Rev:18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22 "The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore.
What about all of those things that weren't supposed to be in Jerusalem anymore? Jerusalem is a city again (which it says won't be found again), and, all those things are found in them?
Question:
Rev:18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22 "The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore.
What about all of those things that weren't supposed to be in Jerusalem anymore? Jerusalem is a city again (which it says won't be found again), and, all those things are found in them?
QUOTE (BibleWheel @ Aug 24 2008, 01:40 PM)
Hey there whirlwind,
It is good to be chatting.
I don't understand how you can say that the "last days" and "last hour" are still future when the Apostles Paul and Peter said otherwise. Could you explain exactly what John meant when he wrote that "it IS the last hour" back in the first century? This interpretation is confirmed by Hebrews which said that Christ had come "in the last days" again speaking of the first century. And it is confirmed again in Peter's pentecostal sermon:
It is good to be chatting.
I don't understand how you can say that the "last days" and "last hour" are still future when the Apostles Paul and Peter said otherwise. Could you explain exactly what John meant when he wrote that "it IS the last hour" back in the first century? This interpretation is confirmed by Hebrews which said that Christ had come "in the last days" again speaking of the first century. And it is confirmed again in Peter's pentecostal sermon:
Acts 2:16-22 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Has His Spirit been "poured out upon all flesh?" No, it was on some but not all. Go to what Peter was quoting - Joel, in which He wrote:
[indent]Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.
Afterward...after what? None of the things detailed in vs. 17 and 19 came to pass so "this" was not the fulfillment of Joel's prediction as the "pouring out" was only on the apostles and those associated with them. Peter's argument was about a charge of drunkenness on the ones standing there and he defended them by saying this is the same thing Joel wrote of...that will happen in the future. Do you think the "great and notable day of the Lord has come?" I certainly hope not or we are in deep, deep trouble!
I couldn't find where John said the "last hour" but I assume you meant "last time." John is teaching about preparing ourselves for the 2nd Advent of Christ...abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence...[1 John 2:28], so please understand that verse 18 is speaking about the time He will return....the end of days, the future!
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
The "last time" is the end time, the end of days. Please read it as if ....It is the end times I am speaking about and then many antichrists will be there and that is how we will know it is the end of days. He is not saying that the time he is living in is the last time of the world. He knew all the prophecies that had to be fulfilled before the end.
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
That is not referencing the end of the world but rather, it appears to me, the end of the ministry of one of the prophets and that was probably John. That is a guess but it definitely isn't about the end times.
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The exact phrase yom YHWH hagadol v'hanora (translated as "great and notable day of the Lord") appears twice in the OT. Once in the verse from Joel that Peter was quoting, and again near the very end of the last book of the OT: [indent]Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
We know that this was fulfilled in John the Baptist:
We know that this was fulfilled in John the Baptist:
No. He was a type of who will come in the end of days.....before that "great and notable day". One that will "preach in the wilderness."
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We all know that Christ the Lord YHWH came to His Temple in 30 AD. He was rejected and killed, but not before He warned of the JUDGMENT that would be poured out upon that first century generation that had rejected Him in the Day of His Visitation, the Day of His Coming which connects all the prophecies that I have been quoting: [indent]Matthew 23:33-36 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
This generation means....the generation He is speaking of...the end generation is "this" generation. You must ask yourselves...did those things happen to those in that generation? No, but they will when He sits in judgement!
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When was this prophecy fulfilled? The answer was obvious. It was fulfilled when God destroyed His Temple and His City and drove the Jews from Jerusalem. This is confirmed by the prophecy in Revelation which links all the other prophecies together with perfect [indent]Revelation 18:19-24 19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.' 20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has