Interestingly, it was Smith Wigglesworth who stated, “Most people seem to have discernment, or think they have, and if they would turn it on themselves for twelve months they would never want to discern again. The gift of discernment is not criticism. I am satisfied that our paramount need is more perfect love.”
One thing that still seems prevalent in the Church today is an “either it’s God or it’s not” mentality. Truth is, all of us see in part, and every movement, ministry, and individual believer is in the process of growth in the knowledge of God. The easiest thing to do in this process is to recognize the gaps and inconsistencies in other saints, and to write them off for those gaps.
This is unfortunately far from the Pauline view of the Church. Do we know of anyone besides Jesus Himself who was more jealous than Paul for the salvation of Israel, the maturation of the Church, and the glorification of God in the earth? Paul is, aside from Christ, the great NT prototype for foundational leadership, and his disposition toward the churches (even the most immature communities) was quite antithetical to the views of the “stand-offish” critic.
The situation at Corinth was the clearest example of this. Paul was dealing with a community of believers who had immorality in their midst, who were fraught with jealousies, divisions and schisms, who had very disorderly gatherings, whose meetings were doing “more harm than good,” who were doubting his own apostleship, and who were having issues and doubts regarding the reality of the resurrection. Have you ever run into a community of believers in that rough of a condition? Seriously.
In Chapter 11 of 1 Cor. Paul even states that sickness and premature death has broken out in their midst as a judgment from the Father for their lack of value for the Body in the context of the meal of the Lord. Judgment is breaking out in their midst, and Paul has the audacity (or should it be called an apostolic faith and sight?) to address them as “saints” and “holy ones” in the opening of the epistle.
A friend of mine just paid my way roundtrip to visit Bethel Church in Redding. He was so moved by the Lord upon a few visits that he was convinced he needed to fly me up there. After prayerful consideration, I believed it to be in the mind of the Lord.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I’ve carried a fervent, and highly serious jealousy for spiritual maturity in the Church, true revival, community, and the recovery of the centrality of Christ for over 12 years now. Some of the men who are referred to positively on these blogs are friends of mine, even fathers in the faith to me (and one was a “grandfather” in the faith to me before he passed away recently).
Now I can say without flinching that there are things at Bethel (and in various modern movements for that matter) that I am in strong disagreement with. I nearly came out of my seat during one of the sermons on my last visit, I felt it was so off base (it was not Bill Johnson, by the way). I do have some concerns about different angles, views and methods at Bethel.
In all candor, however, when I hear statements like this one from an above post, my spirit is grieved:
“I have not taken the time to listen or read any of the teachings for myself, but I just categorize that type of ministry along with the other counterfeit’s and hype that is out there.”
It doesn’t matter how much certain expressions “get under our skin”, even issues that are true issues of concern. If we cannot go to the cross, even on behalf of those who are “white-washed tombs”, we are not expressing the wisdom of Christ. We are called to express the same reality in the present that Jesus revealed at the cross.
My visit to Bethel was of course a mixture. I must ask, however, would it be a mixture if I visited your home lives? Your churches? Your secret lives? Would it be a mixture if you visited my personal way of living? If you visited the fellowship I’ve planted here in Kansas City? Is there any church or work that is expressing the fullness of Jesus Christ yet?
While I had concerns for certain things in Redding, the Lord still used those saints to speak some significant things to my heart and life. I’ve not been engaged much in the area of “personal prophecy”, but a few of the brothers and sisters there had very timely, specific, and significant words to share with me. My heart was quickened by the Spirit for the labor to which He has called me in Kansas City. Thankfully, I had the grace to look past some of the “concerns”, to receive from the Lord.
“Isn’t it a bad well to draw from, though?” you ask.
Well, was Corinth? Paul never doubted the validity of their spiritual gifts, did he? He simply challenged them to get things into order, and I believe they were off in a lot more ways that Bethel.
I look at all of us through the lens of Paul in the context of Corinth. Did he address issues that needed challenging? Yes, as one sent to them, he did. Would Paul have criticized the church at Corinth on a blog that was mostly viewed by folks with the same critical views? I highly doubt it. He addressed those with whom he had immediate responsibility and relationship as an apostle, and aside from that he was occupied with seeing the Gospel revealed to hearts who were bound in darkness.
Does this mean we have to be an apostle to raise concerns? Certainly not. But to categorize other believers (no matter how immature, or incomplete in doctrine or practice) as mere counterfeits is simply the opposite of what the apostle demonstrated.
The Body of Jesus is mangled at present, and there is not much in that Body that we may look upon with a sense of completion. We need the sight of Joseph of Arimathea, a man of “high-position” who was able to go against the tide of bitterness, self-righteousness, and unbelief which flowed so powerfully through his religious colleagues. He was able to look upon that Body, mangled though it was, and to VALUE it, though it had not yet appeared in resurrection glory.
“It takes half a man to criticize,” said Sankey, who was Moody’s worship leader. It takes the resurrection life within to look upon the Body of Christ as Jesus presently is from the right hand of the Father.
Shall we be jealous for fullness? For a purging of bad teachings and doctrines? For a maturity to come to the Church again? Most assuredly. We must. But the only way for that maturity and depth to be restored in the last analysis is for us to go to the cross ourselves.
The mystery of Israel is the revelation that God is a God of mercy, and that His people are simply those who have received the grace to come under the rod of His Fatherhood and governance. When we think we’ve earned anything, we’ve removed ourselves from the grounds of the Gospel. If I realize that I haven’t earned anything (including insight into Scriptures or maturity of vision), I have the grace to look at the Church- in all of its various deficiencies- and to thank God for it, while crying out for mercy on Her behalf.
I want to be found in the counsel of the Lord, friends. He’s more jealous for the fullness of Christ than any of us. He’s wanting to raise up foundational servants, who will proclaim His heart to Israel and the nations. The Church does need to be called to repentance. The Church does need a higher vision of the standards of God. Ultimately, we need “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God” Himself. That Word will only come from broken-hearted vessels who have been united with Him in the Holy Place.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation of this. There is no one more jealous for truth, purity, reality, and fullness than Him. And the way He set out to establish that was by laying His own life down for the very ones who were crucifying Him. He continues to demonstrate that today, interceding from the right hand of Majesty. Shall we follow Him, or a bag of opinions and ideals?
O, for the Spirit and nature of Christ Himself to permeate our lives today.
Full Version: Todd Bentley's Situation: How Should We Respond?
QUOTE (eliyahuzion @ Aug 22 2008, 09:26 AM) 
Interestingly, it was Smith Wigglesworth who stated, “Most people seem to have discernment, or think they have, and if they would turn it on themselves for twelve months they would never want to discern again. The gift of discernment is not criticism. I am satisfied that our paramount need is more perfect love.”
One thing that still seems prevalent in the Church today is an “either it’s God or it’s not” mentality. Truth is, all of us see in part, and every movement, ministry, and individual believer is in the process of growth in the knowledge of God. The easiest thing to do in this process is to recognize the gaps and inconsistencies in other saints, and to write them off for those gaps.
This is unfortunately far from the Pauline view of the Church. Do we know of anyone besides Jesus Himself who was more jealous than Paul for the salvation of Israel, the maturation of the Church, and the glorification of God in the earth? Paul is, aside from Christ, the great NT prototype for foundational leadership, and his disposition toward the churches (even the most immature communities) was quite antithetical to the views of the “stand-offish” critic.
The situation at Corinth was the clearest example of this. Paul was dealing with a community of believers who had immorality in their midst, who were fraught with jealousies, divisions and schisms, who had very disorderly gatherings, whose meetings were doing “more harm than good,” who were doubting his own apostleship, and who were having issues and doubts regarding the reality of the resurrection. Have you ever run into a community of believers in that rough of a condition? Seriously.
In Chapter 11 of 1 Cor. Paul even states that sickness and premature death has broken out in their midst as a judgment from the Father for their lack of value for the Body in the context of the meal of the Lord. Judgment is breaking out in their midst, and Paul has the audacity (or should it be called an apostolic faith and sight?) to address them as “saints” and “holy ones” in the opening of the epistle.
A friend of mine just paid my way roundtrip to visit Bethel Church in Redding. He was so moved by the Lord upon a few visits that he was convinced he needed to fly me up there. After prayerful consideration, I believed it to be in the mind of the Lord.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I’ve carried a fervent, and highly serious jealousy for spiritual maturity in the Church, true revival, community, and the recovery of the centrality of Christ for over 12 years now. Some of the men who are referred to positively on these blogs are friends of mine, even fathers in the faith to me (and one was a “grandfather” in the faith to me before he passed away recently).
Now I can say without flinching that there are things at Bethel (and in various modern movements for that matter) that I am in strong disagreement with. I nearly came out of my seat during one of the sermons on my last visit, I felt it was so off base (it was not Bill Johnson, by the way). I do have some concerns about different angles, views and methods at Bethel.
In all candor, however, when I hear statements like this one from an above post, my spirit is grieved:
“I have not taken the time to listen or read any of the teachings for myself, but I just categorize that type of ministry along with the other counterfeit’s and hype that is out there.”
It doesn’t matter how much certain expressions “get under our skin”, even issues that are true issues of concern. If we cannot go to the cross, even on behalf of those who are “white-washed tombs”, we are not expressing the wisdom of Christ. We are called to express the same reality in the present that Jesus revealed at the cross.
My visit to Bethel was of course a mixture. I must ask, however, would it be a mixture if I visited your home lives? Your churches? Your secret lives? Would it be a mixture if you visited my personal way of living? If you visited the fellowship I’ve planted here in Kansas City? Is there any church or work that is expressing the fullness of Jesus Christ yet?
While I had concerns for certain things in Redding, the Lord still used those saints to speak some significant things to my heart and life. I’ve not been engaged much in the area of “personal prophecy”, but a few of the brothers and sisters there had very timely, specific, and significant words to share with me. My heart was quickened by the Spirit for the labor to which He has called me in Kansas City. Thankfully, I had the grace to look past some of the “concerns”, to receive from the Lord.
“Isn’t it a bad well to draw from, though?” you ask.
Well, was Corinth? Paul never doubted the validity of their spiritual gifts, did he? He simply challenged them to get things into order, and I believe they were off in a lot more ways that Bethel.
I look at all of us through the lens of Paul in the context of Corinth. Did he address issues that needed challenging? Yes, as one sent to them, he did. Would Paul have criticized the church at Corinth on a blog that was mostly viewed by folks with the same critical views? I highly doubt it. He addressed those with whom he had immediate responsibility and relationship as an apostle, and aside from that he was occupied with seeing the Gospel revealed to hearts who were bound in darkness.
Does this mean we have to be an apostle to raise concerns? Certainly not. But to categorize other believers (no matter how immature, or incomplete in doctrine or practice) as mere counterfeits is simply the opposite of what the apostle demonstrated.
The Body of Jesus is mangled at present, and there is not much in that Body that we may look upon with a sense of completion. We need the sight of Joseph of Arimathea, a man of “high-position” who was able to go against the tide of bitterness, self-righteousness, and unbelief which flowed so powerfully through his religious colleagues. He was able to look upon that Body, mangled though it was, and to VALUE it, though it had not yet appeared in resurrection glory.
“It takes half a man to criticize,” said Sankey, who was Moody’s worship leader. It takes the resurrection life within to look upon the Body of Christ as Jesus presently is from the right hand of the Father.
Shall we be jealous for fullness? For a purging of bad teachings and doctrines? For a maturity to come to the Church again? Most assuredly. We must. But the only way for that maturity and depth to be restored in the last analysis is for us to go to the cross ourselves.
The mystery of Israel is the revelation that God is a God of mercy, and that His people are simply those who have received the grace to come under the rod of His Fatherhood and governance. When we think we’ve earned anything, we’ve removed ourselves from the grounds of the Gospel. If I realize that I haven’t earned anything (including insight into Scriptures or maturity of vision), I have the grace to look at the Church- in all of its various deficiencies- and to thank God for it, while crying out for mercy on Her behalf.
I want to be found in the counsel of the Lord, friends. He’s more jealous for the fullness of Christ than any of us. He’s wanting to raise up foundational servants, who will proclaim His heart to Israel and the nations. The Church does need to be called to repentance. The Church does need a higher vision of the standards of God. Ultimately, we need “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God” Himself. That Word will only come from broken-hearted vessels who have been united with Him in the Holy Place.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation of this. There is no one more jealous for truth, purity, reality, and fullness than Him. And the way He set out to establish that was by laying His own life down for the very ones who were crucifying Him. He continues to demonstrate that today, interceding from the right hand of Majesty. Shall we follow Him, or a bag of opinions and ideals?
O, for the Spirit and nature of Christ Himself to permeate our lives today.
One thing that still seems prevalent in the Church today is an “either it’s God or it’s not” mentality. Truth is, all of us see in part, and every movement, ministry, and individual believer is in the process of growth in the knowledge of God. The easiest thing to do in this process is to recognize the gaps and inconsistencies in other saints, and to write them off for those gaps.
This is unfortunately far from the Pauline view of the Church. Do we know of anyone besides Jesus Himself who was more jealous than Paul for the salvation of Israel, the maturation of the Church, and the glorification of God in the earth? Paul is, aside from Christ, the great NT prototype for foundational leadership, and his disposition toward the churches (even the most immature communities) was quite antithetical to the views of the “stand-offish” critic.
The situation at Corinth was the clearest example of this. Paul was dealing with a community of believers who had immorality in their midst, who were fraught with jealousies, divisions and schisms, who had very disorderly gatherings, whose meetings were doing “more harm than good,” who were doubting his own apostleship, and who were having issues and doubts regarding the reality of the resurrection. Have you ever run into a community of believers in that rough of a condition? Seriously.
In Chapter 11 of 1 Cor. Paul even states that sickness and premature death has broken out in their midst as a judgment from the Father for their lack of value for the Body in the context of the meal of the Lord. Judgment is breaking out in their midst, and Paul has the audacity (or should it be called an apostolic faith and sight?) to address them as “saints” and “holy ones” in the opening of the epistle.
A friend of mine just paid my way roundtrip to visit Bethel Church in Redding. He was so moved by the Lord upon a few visits that he was convinced he needed to fly me up there. After prayerful consideration, I believed it to be in the mind of the Lord.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I’ve carried a fervent, and highly serious jealousy for spiritual maturity in the Church, true revival, community, and the recovery of the centrality of Christ for over 12 years now. Some of the men who are referred to positively on these blogs are friends of mine, even fathers in the faith to me (and one was a “grandfather” in the faith to me before he passed away recently).
Now I can say without flinching that there are things at Bethel (and in various modern movements for that matter) that I am in strong disagreement with. I nearly came out of my seat during one of the sermons on my last visit, I felt it was so off base (it was not Bill Johnson, by the way). I do have some concerns about different angles, views and methods at Bethel.
In all candor, however, when I hear statements like this one from an above post, my spirit is grieved:
“I have not taken the time to listen or read any of the teachings for myself, but I just categorize that type of ministry along with the other counterfeit’s and hype that is out there.”
It doesn’t matter how much certain expressions “get under our skin”, even issues that are true issues of concern. If we cannot go to the cross, even on behalf of those who are “white-washed tombs”, we are not expressing the wisdom of Christ. We are called to express the same reality in the present that Jesus revealed at the cross.
My visit to Bethel was of course a mixture. I must ask, however, would it be a mixture if I visited your home lives? Your churches? Your secret lives? Would it be a mixture if you visited my personal way of living? If you visited the fellowship I’ve planted here in Kansas City? Is there any church or work that is expressing the fullness of Jesus Christ yet?
While I had concerns for certain things in Redding, the Lord still used those saints to speak some significant things to my heart and life. I’ve not been engaged much in the area of “personal prophecy”, but a few of the brothers and sisters there had very timely, specific, and significant words to share with me. My heart was quickened by the Spirit for the labor to which He has called me in Kansas City. Thankfully, I had the grace to look past some of the “concerns”, to receive from the Lord.
“Isn’t it a bad well to draw from, though?” you ask.
Well, was Corinth? Paul never doubted the validity of their spiritual gifts, did he? He simply challenged them to get things into order, and I believe they were off in a lot more ways that Bethel.
I look at all of us through the lens of Paul in the context of Corinth. Did he address issues that needed challenging? Yes, as one sent to them, he did. Would Paul have criticized the church at Corinth on a blog that was mostly viewed by folks with the same critical views? I highly doubt it. He addressed those with whom he had immediate responsibility and relationship as an apostle, and aside from that he was occupied with seeing the Gospel revealed to hearts who were bound in darkness.
Does this mean we have to be an apostle to raise concerns? Certainly not. But to categorize other believers (no matter how immature, or incomplete in doctrine or practice) as mere counterfeits is simply the opposite of what the apostle demonstrated.
The Body of Jesus is mangled at present, and there is not much in that Body that we may look upon with a sense of completion. We need the sight of Joseph of Arimathea, a man of “high-position” who was able to go against the tide of bitterness, self-righteousness, and unbelief which flowed so powerfully through his religious colleagues. He was able to look upon that Body, mangled though it was, and to VALUE it, though it had not yet appeared in resurrection glory.
“It takes half a man to criticize,” said Sankey, who was Moody’s worship leader. It takes the resurrection life within to look upon the Body of Christ as Jesus presently is from the right hand of the Father.
Shall we be jealous for fullness? For a purging of bad teachings and doctrines? For a maturity to come to the Church again? Most assuredly. We must. But the only way for that maturity and depth to be restored in the last analysis is for us to go to the cross ourselves.
The mystery of Israel is the revelation that God is a God of mercy, and that His people are simply those who have received the grace to come under the rod of His Fatherhood and governance. When we think we’ve earned anything, we’ve removed ourselves from the grounds of the Gospel. If I realize that I haven’t earned anything (including insight into Scriptures or maturity of vision), I have the grace to look at the Church- in all of its various deficiencies- and to thank God for it, while crying out for mercy on Her behalf.
I want to be found in the counsel of the Lord, friends. He’s more jealous for the fullness of Christ than any of us. He’s wanting to raise up foundational servants, who will proclaim His heart to Israel and the nations. The Church does need to be called to repentance. The Church does need a higher vision of the standards of God. Ultimately, we need “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God” Himself. That Word will only come from broken-hearted vessels who have been united with Him in the Holy Place.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation of this. There is no one more jealous for truth, purity, reality, and fullness than Him. And the way He set out to establish that was by laying His own life down for the very ones who were crucifying Him. He continues to demonstrate that today, interceding from the right hand of Majesty. Shall we follow Him, or a bag of opinions and ideals?
O, for the Spirit and nature of Christ Himself to permeate our lives today.
I wish I could write words that are as seemly as these. This is a heart of God writing. Read it one and all and let it be sufficient unto the day.
My meagre council is simply the word "manifestation" was given to me as I finished reading and began to reply. Of the choices available, my heart settled upon this passage. It is a way the Spirit moves upon me and I treasure that much that I have.
2Co 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
QUOTE (Inspired @ Aug 22 2008, 11:03 AM)
I wish I could write words that are as seemly as these. This is a heart of God writing. Read it one and all and let it be sufficient unto the day.
My meagre council is simply the word "manifestation" was given to me as I finished reading and began to reply. Of the choices available, my heart settled upon this passage. It is a way the Spirit moves upon me and I treasure that much that I have.
2Co 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
My meagre council is simply the word "manifestation" was given to me as I finished reading and began to reply. Of the choices available, my heart settled upon this passage. It is a way the Spirit moves upon me and I treasure that much that I have.
2Co 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
That verse is a great one to apply here. Paul used this standard upon himself. We are called by Jesus to first pull the planks out of our own eyes before we can even begin to see clearly.
I've been pulling a record breakingly long plank out of my eye for 12 years now! Just when I think I have gotten it out, I realize that what I pulled out was just a splinter of the larger plank!
I pray that God will not only restore Todd's marraige, but use this season to refine and strengthen his walk with God and his ministry. God can use this to prevent a greater disaster. He can use this to bring about a healthier and more Christ-like ministry out of Todd through this also. Jim Baker went through a living hell for years. In prison, he had his views of God, church, ministry and the end times radically shaken and changed for the better. He is a very different man now, and he was aquitted after he was released from prison.
God, use this situation for your glory. Shut the mouths of the mocker. Have mercyon all involved! Bring about something glorious to your name in the earth from this!
QUOTE (eliyahuzion @ Aug 22 2008, 11:26 AM)
Interestingly, it was Smith Wigglesworth who stated, “Most people seem to have discernment, or think they have, and if they would turn it on themselves for twelve months they would never want to discern again. The gift of discernment is not criticism. I am satisfied that our paramount need is more perfect love.”
One thing that still seems prevalent in the Church today is an “either it’s God or it’s not” mentality. Truth is, all of us see in part, and every movement, ministry, and individual believer is in the process of growth in the knowledge of God. The easiest thing to do in this process is to recognize the gaps and inconsistencies in other saints, and to write them off for those gaps.
This is unfortunately far from the Pauline view of the Church. Do we know of anyone besides Jesus Himself who was more jealous than Paul for the salvation of Israel, the maturation of the Church, and the glorification of God in the earth? Paul is, aside from Christ, the great NT prototype for foundational leadership, and his disposition toward the churches (even the most immature communities) was quite antithetical to the views of the “stand-offish” critic.
The situation at Corinth was the clearest example of this. Paul was dealing with a community of believers who had immorality in their midst, who were fraught with jealousies, divisions and schisms, who had very disorderly gatherings, whose meetings were doing “more harm than good,” who were doubting his own apostleship, and who were having issues and doubts regarding the reality of the resurrection. Have you ever run into a community of believers in that rough of a condition? Seriously.
In Chapter 11 of 1 Cor. Paul even states that sickness and premature death has broken out in their midst as a judgment from the Father for their lack of value for the Body in the context of the meal of the Lord. Judgment is breaking out in their midst, and Paul has the audacity (or should it be called an apostolic faith and sight?) to address them as “saints” and “holy ones” in the opening of the epistle.
A friend of mine just paid my way roundtrip to visit Bethel Church in Redding. He was so moved by the Lord upon a few visits that he was convinced he needed to fly me up there. After prayerful consideration, I believed it to be in the mind of the Lord.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I’ve carried a fervent, and highly serious jealousy for spiritual maturity in the Church, true revival, community, and the recovery of the centrality of Christ for over 12 years now. Some of the men who are referred to positively on these blogs are friends of mine, even fathers in the faith to me (and one was a “grandfather” in the faith to me before he passed away recently).
Now I can say without flinching that there are things at Bethel (and in various modern movements for that matter) that I am in strong disagreement with. I nearly came out of my seat during one of the sermons on my last visit, I felt it was so off base (it was not Bill Johnson, by the way). I do have some concerns about different angles, views and methods at Bethel.
In all candor, however, when I hear statements like this one from an above post, my spirit is grieved:
“I have not taken the time to listen or read any of the teachings for myself, but I just categorize that type of ministry along with the other counterfeit’s and hype that is out there.”
It doesn’t matter how much certain expressions “get under our skin”, even issues that are true issues of concern. If we cannot go to the cross, even on behalf of those who are “white-washed tombs”, we are not expressing the wisdom of Christ. We are called to express the same reality in the present that Jesus revealed at the cross.
My visit to Bethel was of course a mixture. I must ask, however, would it be a mixture if I visited your home lives? Your churches? Your secret lives? Would it be a mixture if you visited my personal way of living? If you visited the fellowship I’ve planted here in Kansas City? Is there any church or work that is expressing the fullness of Jesus Christ yet?
While I had concerns for certain things in Redding, the Lord still used those saints to speak some significant things to my heart and life. I’ve not been engaged much in the area of “personal prophecy”, but a few of the brothers and sisters there had very timely, specific, and significant words to share with me. My heart was quickened by the Spirit for the labor to which He has called me in Kansas City. Thankfully, I had the grace to look past some of the “concerns”, to receive from the Lord.
“Isn’t it a bad well to draw from, though?” you ask.
Well, was Corinth? Paul never doubted the validity of their spiritual gifts, did he? He simply challenged them to get things into order, and I believe they were off in a lot more ways that Bethel.
I look at all of us through the lens of Paul in the context of Corinth. Did he address issues that needed challenging? Yes, as one sent to them, he did. Would Paul have criticized the church at Corinth on a blog that was mostly viewed by folks with the same critical views? I highly doubt it. He addressed those with whom he had immediate responsibility and relationship as an apostle, and aside from that he was occupied with seeing the Gospel revealed to hearts who were bound in darkness.
Does this mean we have to be an apostle to raise concerns? Certainly not. But to categorize other believers (no matter how immature, or incomplete in doctrine or practice) as mere counterfeits is simply the opposite of what the apostle demonstrated.
The Body of Jesus is mangled at present, and there is not much in that Body that we may look upon with a sense of completion. We need the sight of Joseph of Arimathea, a man of “high-position” who was able to go against the tide of bitterness, self-righteousness, and unbelief which flowed so powerfully through his religious colleagues. He was able to look upon that Body, mangled though it was, and to VALUE it, though it had not yet appeared in resurrection glory.
“It takes half a man to criticize,” said Sankey, who was Moody’s worship leader. It takes the resurrection life within to look upon the Body of Christ as Jesus presently is from the right hand of the Father.
Shall we be jealous for fullness? For a purging of bad teachings and doctrines? For a maturity to come to the Church again? Most assuredly. We must. But the only way for that maturity and depth to be restored in the last analysis is for us to go to the cross ourselves.
The mystery of Israel is the revelation that God is a God of mercy, and that His people are simply those who have received the grace to come under the rod of His Fatherhood and governance. When we think we’ve earned anything, we’ve removed ourselves from the grounds of the Gospel. If I realize that I haven’t earned anything (including insight into Scriptures or maturity of vision), I have the grace to look at the Church- in all of its various deficiencies- and to thank God for it, while crying out for mercy on Her behalf.
I want to be found in the counsel of the Lord, friends. He’s more jealous for the fullness of Christ than any of us. He’s wanting to raise up foundational servants, who will proclaim His heart to Israel and the nations. The Church does need to be called to repentance. The Church does need a higher vision of the standards of God. Ultimately, we need “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God” Himself. That Word will only come from broken-hearted vessels who have been united with Him in the Holy Place.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation of this. There is no one more jealous for truth, purity, reality, and fullness than Him. And the way He set out to establish that was by laying His own life down for the very ones who were crucifying Him. He continues to demonstrate that today, interceding from the right hand of Majesty. Shall we follow Him, or a bag of opinions and ideals?
O, for the Spirit and nature of Christ Himself to permeate our lives today.
One thing that still seems prevalent in the Church today is an “either it’s God or it’s not” mentality. Truth is, all of us see in part, and every movement, ministry, and individual believer is in the process of growth in the knowledge of God. The easiest thing to do in this process is to recognize the gaps and inconsistencies in other saints, and to write them off for those gaps.
This is unfortunately far from the Pauline view of the Church. Do we know of anyone besides Jesus Himself who was more jealous than Paul for the salvation of Israel, the maturation of the Church, and the glorification of God in the earth? Paul is, aside from Christ, the great NT prototype for foundational leadership, and his disposition toward the churches (even the most immature communities) was quite antithetical to the views of the “stand-offish” critic.
The situation at Corinth was the clearest example of this. Paul was dealing with a community of believers who had immorality in their midst, who were fraught with jealousies, divisions and schisms, who had very disorderly gatherings, whose meetings were doing “more harm than good,” who were doubting his own apostleship, and who were having issues and doubts regarding the reality of the resurrection. Have you ever run into a community of believers in that rough of a condition? Seriously.
In Chapter 11 of 1 Cor. Paul even states that sickness and premature death has broken out in their midst as a judgment from the Father for their lack of value for the Body in the context of the meal of the Lord. Judgment is breaking out in their midst, and Paul has the audacity (or should it be called an apostolic faith and sight?) to address them as “saints” and “holy ones” in the opening of the epistle.
A friend of mine just paid my way roundtrip to visit Bethel Church in Redding. He was so moved by the Lord upon a few visits that he was convinced he needed to fly me up there. After prayerful consideration, I believed it to be in the mind of the Lord.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I’ve carried a fervent, and highly serious jealousy for spiritual maturity in the Church, true revival, community, and the recovery of the centrality of Christ for over 12 years now. Some of the men who are referred to positively on these blogs are friends of mine, even fathers in the faith to me (and one was a “grandfather” in the faith to me before he passed away recently).
Now I can say without flinching that there are things at Bethel (and in various modern movements for that matter) that I am in strong disagreement with. I nearly came out of my seat during one of the sermons on my last visit, I felt it was so off base (it was not Bill Johnson, by the way). I do have some concerns about different angles, views and methods at Bethel.
In all candor, however, when I hear statements like this one from an above post, my spirit is grieved:
“I have not taken the time to listen or read any of the teachings for myself, but I just categorize that type of ministry along with the other counterfeit’s and hype that is out there.”
It doesn’t matter how much certain expressions “get under our skin”, even issues that are true issues of concern. If we cannot go to the cross, even on behalf of those who are “white-washed tombs”, we are not expressing the wisdom of Christ. We are called to express the same reality in the present that Jesus revealed at the cross.
My visit to Bethel was of course a mixture. I must ask, however, would it be a mixture if I visited your home lives? Your churches? Your secret lives? Would it be a mixture if you visited my personal way of living? If you visited the fellowship I’ve planted here in Kansas City? Is there any church or work that is expressing the fullness of Jesus Christ yet?
While I had concerns for certain things in Redding, the Lord still used those saints to speak some significant things to my heart and life. I’ve not been engaged much in the area of “personal prophecy”, but a few of the brothers and sisters there had very timely, specific, and significant words to share with me. My heart was quickened by the Spirit for the labor to which He has called me in Kansas City. Thankfully, I had the grace to look past some of the “concerns”, to receive from the Lord.
“Isn’t it a bad well to draw from, though?” you ask.
Well, was Corinth? Paul never doubted the validity of their spiritual gifts, did he? He simply challenged them to get things into order, and I believe they were off in a lot more ways that Bethel.
I look at all of us through the lens of Paul in the context of Corinth. Did he address issues that needed challenging? Yes, as one sent to them, he did. Would Paul have criticized the church at Corinth on a blog that was mostly viewed by folks with the same critical views? I highly doubt it. He addressed those with whom he had immediate responsibility and relationship as an apostle, and aside from that he was occupied with seeing the Gospel revealed to hearts who were bound in darkness.
Does this mean we have to be an apostle to raise concerns? Certainly not. But to categorize other believers (no matter how immature, or incomplete in doctrine or practice) as mere counterfeits is simply the opposite of what the apostle demonstrated.
The Body of Jesus is mangled at present, and there is not much in that Body that we may look upon with a sense of completion. We need the sight of Joseph of Arimathea, a man of “high-position” who was able to go against the tide of bitterness, self-righteousness, and unbelief which flowed so powerfully through his religious colleagues. He was able to look upon that Body, mangled though it was, and to VALUE it, though it had not yet appeared in resurrection glory.
“It takes half a man to criticize,” said Sankey, who was Moody’s worship leader. It takes the resurrection life within to look upon the Body of Christ as Jesus presently is from the right hand of the Father.
Shall we be jealous for fullness? For a purging of bad teachings and doctrines? For a maturity to come to the Church again? Most assuredly. We must. But the only way for that maturity and depth to be restored in the last analysis is for us to go to the cross ourselves.
The mystery of Israel is the revelation that God is a God of mercy, and that His people are simply those who have received the grace to come under the rod of His Fatherhood and governance. When we think we’ve earned anything, we’ve removed ourselves from the grounds of the Gospel. If I realize that I haven’t earned anything (including insight into Scriptures or maturity of vision), I have the grace to look at the Church- in all of its various deficiencies- and to thank God for it, while crying out for mercy on Her behalf.
I want to be found in the counsel of the Lord, friends. He’s more jealous for the fullness of Christ than any of us. He’s wanting to raise up foundational servants, who will proclaim His heart to Israel and the nations. The Church does need to be called to repentance. The Church does need a higher vision of the standards of God. Ultimately, we need “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God” Himself. That Word will only come from broken-hearted vessels who have been united with Him in the Holy Place.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation of this. There is no one more jealous for truth, purity, reality, and fullness than Him. And the way He set out to establish that was by laying His own life down for the very ones who were crucifying Him. He continues to demonstrate that today, interceding from the right hand of Majesty. Shall we follow Him, or a bag of opinions and ideals?
O, for the Spirit and nature of Christ Himself to permeate our lives today.
Well said! Let he who has no sin cast the first stone. The fact that Todd has stepped down and hopefully allowing a breaking to take place is good. We can grow through failure...All things work for good in the Lord.
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John
I like that your post is showing grace to Todd Bentley, which I think is very important.
I think he has come under a lot of criticism due to some of the very dodgy things he promotes. People have reacted against him strongly because they perceive something very evil permeating his teaching. We have to be careful of our doctrine.
It is hard to expose false doctrine without becoming unloving, but it is possible.
I hope Todd finds healing in God and that he repents of his false teaching. Is he deliberately decieving people? Maybe? Or is he just misled? I don't know, only God know his heart.
I would also say that the letters written to the churches are not that easy to apply here because they were written to a new church and not an established ministry. I think sometimes ministries are too quick to talk about false doctrine as they elevate preachers too much, they come back with the "touch not the Lord's annointed" response but they don't look to drive out wrong teaching.
I know that I am not without sin.... so I am not looking to judge. I think that we need to be very very careful what we teach though because then that's not just dealing with our own salvation, it's impacting other peoples salvation.
I'm not the greatest communicator so please excuse my hodge podge of ideas. I also don't have theological training.... but I hope from my post that you can see two things -
to act lovingly to people no matter what they have done or said
and to pursue holiness, making sure we are not deceived or that other people are.
Maybe there wouldn't be such a mess with this ministry if we were more able to correct each other in a loving way.???
I think he has come under a lot of criticism due to some of the very dodgy things he promotes. People have reacted against him strongly because they perceive something very evil permeating his teaching. We have to be careful of our doctrine.
It is hard to expose false doctrine without becoming unloving, but it is possible.
I hope Todd finds healing in God and that he repents of his false teaching. Is he deliberately decieving people? Maybe? Or is he just misled? I don't know, only God know his heart.
I would also say that the letters written to the churches are not that easy to apply here because they were written to a new church and not an established ministry. I think sometimes ministries are too quick to talk about false doctrine as they elevate preachers too much, they come back with the "touch not the Lord's annointed" response but they don't look to drive out wrong teaching.
I know that I am not without sin.... so I am not looking to judge. I think that we need to be very very careful what we teach though because then that's not just dealing with our own salvation, it's impacting other peoples salvation.
I'm not the greatest communicator so please excuse my hodge podge of ideas. I also don't have theological training.... but I hope from my post that you can see two things -
to act lovingly to people no matter what they have done or said
and to pursue holiness, making sure we are not deceived or that other people are.
Maybe there wouldn't be such a mess with this ministry if we were more able to correct each other in a loving way.???
how we should respond is simple with out any one saying his a flake
this man needs us praying for him and his wife and his family
why is it so easy to kick a brother in the face when he is down ? also when it comes to cyberspace why do we feel we can say what we want with out any riple affect or it bitting us ?
does this brother deserve to be hung out to dry does this brother deserve to be looked down on because he has decided it was right for him to step down and op for restoring his relationship with his wife ?
i know there are some hear who dont like todd bently and do have their right to disagree and have there say
but i would like to say this when the chips are down and no one is standing up for you who is it that fights for you who is it that watches over you and who is it that says dont give up ?
yes its sad to what happend and yes i am up set that a brother is being hung out to dry i wil not mock this man or will i tap anyone on the shoulder and say i agree with you
i am covering todd bently and shonnah bently and their children and i pray that this is what you kind decent folk will be doing
satan has a lot to answer for when christ decides its time to judge the world and mark my word satan wil be held responsible for the ministers and evangelists that have fallen
i am praying that god restores todd bently and his wife and kids and i am praying that todd bently does not give up the good fight god is not finished with todd bently todd does have a good heart even though it looks a little odd to you to what he does and says
we have certian people hear deffending some one who came in by the back door
let god deal with todd its really no ones concern
God bless from damo
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