People say, "Jesus is going to rapture us up to Heaven where he is" and when we ask them
where they get that from that quote 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, to make a point or justify the rapture.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that
ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we
say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of
the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead
in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds,to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now lets take a closer look at the scripture an see whats it talking about. Paul is telling people
not to grieve over people death in christ;cause they will be raise again, as surely as the virtuous
people that are living will be changed. "For the Lord will descend, (which mean come down),
and we all will be caught up (ascend)together in the clouds to MEET the Lord in the AIR:and
so shall we ever be with the Lord. Now lets talk about being with the lord and where. Be-
cause paul is talking about descend (coming down).

Now lets go to psalm 132 and take a look at what , the Lord sworn in truth unto David.Verse
11-14, 11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy
body will I set upon thy throne. 132:12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony
that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. 132:13 For the
LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 132:14 This is my rest for ever:
here will I dwell; for I have desired it. Now at that time David was on the earth and he knew
the Lord plan, which is to come down on earth.

Now another scripture that is use to try and support the false teaching of going to heaven is in
st.John 14:1-3 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 14:2 In
my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare
a place for you. 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you
unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Now if we look close at what jesus is saying
we can point out some things. End vese two "I go to prepare a place for you." Now we know
Jesus ascended back to heaven. Lets go to Acts 1: 9 And when he had spoken these things, while
they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 1:10 And while they
looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus,
which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into
heaven.

Lets look at the middle of verse 3 John 14:And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come
again, now lets answer this, Revelation 21: 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 21:2 And I John saw the
holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for
her husband. 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God
is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with
them, and be their God.

BRO. TAN ------------- HELLO ................. I AM COPY/PASTING THE FOLLOWING . . .I
THINK IT IS VERY MUCH ON TOPIC, WITH THIS THREAD :




POST #25
The Blessed Hope, The Second Coming Of Christ, The Second Coming will come as a surprise to those that are unaware. T
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...24&start=24



QUOTE (immortality @ Aug 20 2008, 02:31 PM)
first of all i would just like to say that i agree that this forum is one of a kind. no other forum would allow me to discuss some of the things i do without "excommunicating" me. indeed, i have never met such a large group of open-minded, spirit-filled christians. it truly is a blessing.

second, i believe people have different views regarding exactly what the "great tribulation" is. surely christians are not exempt from tribulation, in the general sense of the term. indeed, that is what we are here for.

however, scripture is quite clear that true, genuine believers will never be subject to the wrath of god. to say that we will not face tribulation, in the general sense of the term, is being optimistic. but i believe that to think christians will face god's wrath is being ignorant.

it is my personal opinion that the holy spirit has been leading me to believe that the departure of true, genuine christians into the heavens will take place before the wrath of god is poured out. this "wrath" may very well take the form of a geographical pole shift. john's description of the sixth seal seems to justify this theory.

now this does not mean we won't face difficult times before these cataclysmic events begin transpiring. in fact, i have become convinced that the world is going to take quite a turn here in the very near future. the next world war, terrorist attack, or both may be the catalyst for the implementation of martial law in the united states. it will indeed be a time of "tribulation" and distress that has not been equalled.

what does jesus say will happen after this distress? the sun will turn red and the stars will fall from the sky - that is, the events of the sixth seal will transpire, which is the wrath of god. the harvesters (angels) will come and collect the wheat (true believers) and take them into the barn (heaven). only when the elect are safe will god allow the "heavenly bodies to be shaken", where the heavens and earth will be consumed with fire.

we need to keep watch and pray that we may be able to escape all that is about to come upon the whole world, and to stand before the son of man:

"After these things [ the events of the sixth seal, or wrath of god] I looked, and there was a crowd so large that no one was able to count it! They were from every nation, tribe, people, and language. They were standing in front of the throne and the lamb and were wearing white robes, with palm branches in their hands." [rev 7:9]

another point i'd like to bring up is the antichrist. personally i believe that there is a very good possibility i may die for my faith in the very near future. radical islam could be the catalyst. however, i think scripture says that he will not be some ruthless murderer, but rather a complete counterfeit of jesus.

the new agers also seem to add to this belief. their fervent activity at apparently explaining away the rapture of the church should not be ignored. they say that there will be an "evacuation" before a pole shift occurs, where these individuals who do not "fit in with the vibration" will be beamed up into spaceships in the "twinkling of an eye" (yes, they use that term). in reality, god's angels will have taken the church to the celestial abode jesus has been preparing them.

also, those who believe christians will be present during the entire rule of the false messiah need to take something into consideration. do you really think that true christians will just passively let the antichrist go about deceiving your family, friends and loved ones? surely you would become zealous and try to expose his deception to as many people as you could. therefore, because the antichrist would not possibly take this chance, he could very well order these "rebels", these "malcontents" of the universe, to be 'evacuated' by his space brother emissaries for further "enlightenment" and education.

so again, i believe we are soon going to face some difficult and troublesome times, possibly lasting as long as a year or more in length. but then i think we should lift our heads up, because our redemption will be drawing near.





pOST#25
Today, 02:41 PM .CROWNSEVENALPHABET, AUGUST 20TH, 2008
When I read your words, I knew to share this :


This is an excerpt from the message I was given in 2005

Lead Them My Stone & Archer Of Brave Sport . . ., . . . to the glory of the one True God . . .
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...c=19697&hl=

And tell them that they must obey the Law of the Universe
of the guides of Christ to protect the earth and new settlement
and living quarters granted upon the masses
At the c h a n g - l i n g time of Body escape into paradise
and glory to serve the glory of the One True God.

I read your link, that pretty good.

Thank you Bro. Tan, Praise to God (IHVH), the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things . . .


And for questions about the phrase : ` at the chang-ling time of Body escape into paradise . . . `

SEE VERSE 52 . . . ` for the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and
we will be CHANGED . . . `


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...ians%2015:50-58
1 Corinthians 15:50-58

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[a]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[b] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Thats right....Peace in Jesus name

In fact all of the prophets spoke of the Kingdom and all things pertaining to the Kingdom being here on earth. Now if God is going to take his faithful (church) to heaven before the Great Tribulation to protect them and keep them away from Armageddon, then surely the prophets would have told us of this event. Instead the prophets tell us (Isaiah 45:11-12 & 18) “Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens and all their host have I commanded. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; "God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, and he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."

God so much intended for man to inhabit the earth that he made man of the earth!
(Genesis 2:4-7) "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

After man was created from the earth and multiplied upon the face of the earth, God chose the children of Israel to be a Kingdom of Priest unto him. To declare his Laws and Statutes to the rest of the sons of Adam. (Exodus 19:3-6) " And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
(Amos 2:11) "And I raised up of your sons for prophets, and of your young men for Nazarites." Is it not even thus, O ye children of Israel? saith the LORD."

Jesus spoke by Moses and had him to tell the children of Israel (Deuteronomy 27-31 & 39-40) "And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever."

The prophet Ezekiel speaks of the same thing, (Ezekiel 20: 33-38) "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. This is after the great tribulation.
At this time the Lord will plead with man, but not like we plead with our children, this is like if you don"t adhere to him
then, you don"t come out the wilderness. This going to Jesus Kingdom.

Lets take a look at one of the situation moses had to deal with, dealing with the Israel in the wilderness....Numbers 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Thats what the Lord had to deal with back in the days of moses, and still to day; and after Jesus just got threw taking down the nations, you would think people should have a diferent attitude, but of cousre we always have to have an example.

The Lord will call the present Body of Christ without warning. There certainly will not be 7 years of His coming judgment events as a pre-text to His call for the Body of Christ. This idea is totally absurd and without logic, and certainly without any scriptural support. Those who preach and teach this falsehood need to be exposed. I say to those on this post who refute the Lord's promise to keep the living believer at the time from His coming judgment ….. let's play hard ball. You do the work and belly up to the table with your picks from scripture that give "proof-text" evidence to support your theory. I want them all. The scriptures and your interpretation of them. Nothing else.

List them by the number and show your stuff. I get tired of people who rant on and on about the Lord's "lie" regarding His call for the Body of Christ, and at the same time they avoid producing total and comprehensive scriptural evidence. I also do not buy the cop-out answers regarding what others of the past have said about this topic which you and your mentors love to use for diversion from the real deal. It makes no difference what has been said by others. So get it on and post your position in outline form, point by point [scriptures only .... no SBS], and I will show you that you are in error on each and every one. Then I will show you things that you are either ignorant of, and or sweep under the rug, that you will most likely omit from your rendering.

Seldom have I witnessed that people, who build their theories about the Mystery of the Word, do not get a big head about it.
Yes the yacking out of the necks is tiresome, and Jesus warned us for those Pharysees that hijacked the Word, as God will not have any of it.

Pharysees, kneel and repent.

Hey Stephen, sound a little irriated there cheif, but I agree, I want to see seven years to.

Five times the bible set the time of the great tribulation at 3 1/2
years which also is the time of the reign of the beast and the false prophet:
1 in Daniel 7:25;...time and times and the dividing of time. 2 Daniel 12:7
"times,times,and an half." 3 Revelation 11:2...and the holy city shall they
tread under foot for forty and two months. 4 Revelation 11:3...and they
(two witnesses),shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threee score
days (1260 days), and 5 Revelation 13:5 "power was given unto him to
continue forty and two month (3 1/2 years)."

Most theologians and writers ignore all the scriptures that set a 3 1/2
years times limit on the reign of the anti-Christ and the beast (which is
the time of the great tribulations). They all say there will be seven years
of tribulation;and they all use the 9th chapter of Daniel to try to prove it.
It is also said by them that the ant-Christ is going to make a covenant
with the jews for the one week (7years), and in the middle of the week
(after 3 1/2 years), he is going to break the covenant, and stop the jews
from sacrificing animals and pollute the sanctury. then they go on to say
that at the end of the week (7years), the Lord is going to come and pour
out his wrath upon this destroyer.

These scripture lets us know that the great tribulation will not start
until the abomination (false prophet) gets there. The four other scripture
we named earlier says he will only stay for 3 1/2years. The 9th chapter
of Daniel is not talking about the false prophet, neither is it talking about
the same time. Part of that scripture has already been fulfilled,even down
to destruction (consumption) of jerusalem and that which was detemined
has already been poured out upon the jews, which are the desolate and
not the desolator. It is awfully strange that people with great understand-
ing of words do not know the different between the words make,and
confirm "the covenant" with many for one week, not make a covenant
with many. The desolate is one who is being destroyed, and the desolator
is the one who is doing the destroying. When prople make a covenant
they are re-establishing an agreement that has already been made in the
past. After the Great Tribulation, then come the Lord (jesus) lets look at....

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

No irritation on my part at all. I am very direct and candid with my statemens. I just want delivery of proof-text support for your position. I need more than you have listed. Is this all you have? If so, I will respond. If not, I need more ..... and you need more by the way. You have hand picked some items of the subject matter out of overall context. All related scriptural record has to be considered in the process. Those you mentioned are easily rendered differently than you do ..... because your take off with what you have listed so far is not congruent with all other related scriptures on the subject.

The whole idea is to bring back heaven on earth.

Or else why would have Jesus died? To undo what Adam did in the garden.
Jesus reconciled us with the Father.

We now enjoy the same relationship with God as Adam and Eve had before the fall.

The last thing to go, to be destroyed, out of the millenial reign is sin and death.

So I believe we will all shed our mortality, and our soul will not know the 2nd death, spiritual death.

So God bless all those who believe they will be physically raptured at the coming of Jesus.

But I doubt God would leave the earth without shepherds to preach the gospel to the remainder of the 4 billion
people who haven't heard the gospel....

When I received the Kingdom, I was caught up in the air with the Lord at that moment.
Not my physical body but my spiritual body was.

The last 7 years were the worst in recorded history in terms of calamities and pestilence and wars, and natural disasters.

People keep telling of the signs yet no one seems to get that judgement has already come on earth, all because they believe this can't be tribulation because they are still here on earth...

Dangerous doctrine this physical rapture theory. It denies the return of Jesus to earth.

Thank for responding.

Now lets take a look an see what we got here, first let me start by saying there is no rapture ok, the
second thing is, those scripture were to prove the time length of the Great Tribulation before the Lord come.

Lets start this off in acts 1: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

Now let us take a look Jesus, Lets go to Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

Lets get another look at it in, Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

At this point, notice in verse 15, these people trying to hide from the Lord, maybe they should be trying to repent
or maybe its to late. Remind you that the Lord haven"t descend yet, he just sitting in heaven looking at them.

Now lets bring the Lord down...1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now lets make some sense out of this, Verse 16. There a few thing going on in this verse ok, so lets take it step
by step. Now descend, meaning coming down, I don"t think their any dispute about descend, right.
Heres the good parts (Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump).

Lets look at that trump....1Corinthians 15: 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is totally physcial, buddy.

Lets go to Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. (future)
27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem (future)
Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Now lets go to the part when he say, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
The dead in christ are those who keep his commandment, lets take a look.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Lets take a look at, what Jobs said about being dead and being raise, let go to the book of Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
14:13 Oh that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Now lets break down 1Thessalonians verse 17, (Then we which are alive and remain), ok now we read that the trump will blow and the Lord will raise up the saint first, ok .

Now lets look at the other part, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
Now the Lord is descending from heaven, and the trump is blown, the dead which is alive now from the earth
is raise to meet the Lord in the air. (very physical) so if you are all the way west and I am all the way east and I call you and say meet me half way, then we"re both coming from to different direction to meet, make sense.

Now lets go and see where Lord coming down at...Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Lets not forget those saints now, verse 5, 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Now, before the Lord go against all those nation, there are people that did not receive the mark of the beast or whorship the beast, lets take a look at what the Lord did with those people. (remind you, these people are on the earth)

Lets go in Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
When he say hold back the four wind, he talking the nation, or people.

7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Notice, these people are still on the earth, lets look at another verse.

7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

I want to add this part in, and I like remind people that this is future.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

I hope this what you were looking for, buddy.

The rapture and second coming are two different events. The rapture is when the Lord comes for his church, at that time he never sets a foot on the earth. At the second coming he does.

Doug60,

Your are correct. The voice speaking "there is no rapture" is coming from Satan and he has deceived many by slipping this hobgoblin into view. The scriptures are quite clear on this issue and those who are in the business of denying this truth are spreading satanic infestation. Satan is preparing the world for his arrival and this is one of his aberrant lies. Readers beware.

You're right brother stephen, and I just one to add a few more things, because we have to understand that, the Father's
Kingdom comes after, Jesus Kingdom.

Lets go to Revelation 20: 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Now, satan got one more last job to do before he hit that lake of fire, ok....now pay attention to this because, satan
job is to do one or to things, bring evil on you, (deceive people,lie,tell half true,etc..) or go up side your head,
Now at this time, we still got flesh and blood people, and this is headed toward the end of Jesus Kingdom.
But notice what it say at the end of verse 9: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Now remember, at this time Jesus is already on earth, and fire came down from heaven, thats the Father coming
down (descending) at this time.

Lets go a little further...Revelation 21:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now we ending Jesus's Kingdom, and now its time to deal with the second Resurrection, so this is the time when
the lake of fire gets full, ok

Before I go on, I just want to say, that those who keep the the Lord's commandment now, avoids that part.

Lets take a quick Look at what Jesus say about that....Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This is how we no for sure that the Father's Kingdom is after Jesus Kingdom, because jesus had flesh and
blood people in his Kingdom, now in the Father's Kingdom, flesh and blood can't see the father's Kingdom nor get in,
nor exist ant more.

Lets take a look at the conversation Jesus was having with Nicodemus.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

We know Jesus's Kingdom, had flesh and blood people, right, now remember we just read
how satan deceive the people and the second death, right.

Now lets continue, we still in John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now verse 5: lets break it down a little, (born of the water) Jesus is talking about, the word of God, and
repenting, being baptize in the name of Jesus, (and of the spirit) Jesus is talking about a, physical change
in the body.
Verse 6: we are (humans) created flesh and angles are created spirit, another words, Jesus had to be born
again to become flesh, remember an angle planted a seed in Mary, then Jesus was born, right. Now, in order for jesus
to go back to the Father, he had to be born again, back in to the spirit body.
Verse 8: A spirit body, can walk right by you, and you won't know it.
All the angles that got kick out of heaven, are doing it now.

Lets look an example....John 20: 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly

Verse15: 48; sounds familar (That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.)

This is the Father's Kingdom.

Lets go to Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

This is what Jesus was saying all alone in...John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

All of what Jesus is saying, we just went threw. We just establish the Father (house) Kingdom, Jesus's prepare
the Father's house, we just read that, lets go over it some more, Jesus, took down the nation, clean up the earth,put satan in the lake of fire , clean up the people, of course some went in the lake of fire, verse 4,5,6, Jesus telling them to keep his word (commandments) notice the last part, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. We just read jesus's kingdom before the Father's Kingdom and that how you get in the Father's Kingdom, by Jesus.

lets go to 1Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Peace in Jesus name

On the contrary Stephen. Dare any question the authority of Paul the apostle. Christian will be here for the tribulation and the rapture shall not occur until the Epiphany or outshing brilliance of Christ. The rapture shall not come until the Parousia of Christ or his arrivil return, and finally the rapture shall not come until the revelation of Christ, when he comes to judge the world. Any thing that says otherwise is contrary to doctrine, scripture and the great apostle Paul.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

This the rapture of the dead and living, our gathering together unto him


Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Dont let Stephen doop you as it will not come until the apostacy, which is where we are now and the antichrist is revealed

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We must even see the abomination desolation, devil in the Temple saying he is God

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

God will destroy him with the brightness of his epiphany after he, Satan is revealed to us

[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

Finally the coming of Christ is after Satan's working or after the tribulation

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The Day of the Lord is not the same as the Lord's "harpazo" action for the Body of Christ. The beginning of the Day of the Lord starts the tribuation period and beyond. One must understand why Paul is correcting the error teaching that the Day of the Lord had begun. The Thessalonian believers were concerned and troubled by this teaching because the Lord had not called them yet. They knew from earlier revelation and Paul's teaching that the Lord would keep them from the tribulations of His wrath just before the Day of the Lord. Paul explains othewise and tell then that the Day of the Lord was not in process and tells them why. The required conditions were not present at the time.

You are misinterpreting the passage and confusing the Day of the Lord with the "gathering" of the Body of Christ which will occur just before. This the only way the passage makes sense. Your post-tribulation mentors use this passage to mislead the unlearned.

Hey Gideon,

I see you believe in the rapture, the scripture that I see you wrote do not fit a rapture. Now I want to ask you, were
do you think the Lords going to take the people? Cause I read all over the Bible were the Lord desired to live on
earth.

Lets go to psalm 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
132:12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
132:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Do you think the Lord is going to rapture, the people and then bring them back?

If you read the scripture that I wrote concerning Jesus Kingdom and the Father's Kingdom, you will see
that they all take place on earth.

My advice to you is this: Throw away the books you have been reading and study your Bible

Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Revelation
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

You also need to understand that the Lord's coming millennial kingdom will be one of mortal nations living on the earth. The Body of Christ [the Church] will be immortal and will rule with Him during the period. Then eternity will begin after this.

Study your Bible.

Looks like Jesus to me, brother stephen.

And who else is with Him when He acts to take back the earth from the beast and his followers?

Lets go to....Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Let take another look in the new testamemt. Lets go to 1Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Lets see who else is coming with the Lord, let go to Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

I just wanted to throw this in, lets go to Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever

Who is with the Lord and observes Him as He removes the seals and opens the scroll containing the coming events of the tribulation? If one knows the answer to this question one knows that the Body of Christ will be immortalized just before His coming judgment against an unbelieving world. The same will accompany Him when He destroys the kingdom of Satan's best and followers at the end of the tribulation period. Will you be one of these who observes the removal of the seals and then comes with Him to Armageddon? Are you ready to meet the Lord today? Those who are ready will be snatched [Greek "harpazo"] away in an instant .... in the twinkling of an eye. This action will come with no warning and no signs or events of the tribulation period will take place until just after.

"Be ye therefore ready" .... for the Son of Man will come at a time when the world is not expecting His intervention. This will certainly not be at the end of the tribulation period, but must be before it begins. All who experience the tribulations of He unmitigated wrath will definitely know what is taking place without a doubt. Some will repent and turn to Him, but most will not and they will be destroyed and lost forever.

"I will keep thee from the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world"

..... but only if you are ready and believing in His promise.

Make certain that you are ready for this event. It may or may not come before you die, but either way, you must be focused upon Him each and every day and must live your life as if He were to break in before this day is over. His warning stands and He will come as a thief with no prior indication of His visit which will take place in a flash. This will not be the case during or at the end of the tribulation period when there will be many signs and events revealing and leading up to His obvious appearance on the earth. The Lord means business on this one and there is no wiggle room. Deal ..... or no deal ..... no "maybe" here. The timing of His "harpazo" action is scheduled at a time that you think not ..... cannot know.

So have you two come to realize the truth, that there is no Rapture? You can find the truth right here on this forum. Here is the Link.

can anybody change the title? since 20.8.2008 it is writen rature.........please

"So have you two come to realize the truth, that there is no Rapture? You can find the truth right here on this forum."

>Your reference is to a "Link" that is pure hobgoblin. The author presents a gross misapplication of scriptural definition. This type of corrupted interpretation is the hallmark of those who claim to know the scriptures and attempt to support their pet theories and stories for gain.

Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.


NOAH SHALL ***COMFORT*** US..........WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


THE WORDS ABOUT THIS "RAPTURE" WILL ***COMFORT*** THE SAINTS...........WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?



the scripture does not instruct the Church to:
prepare for the a/c,
stockpile food for the famine of Rev 6:6,...........or Shekel's famine and economic collapse,
flee to the desert wilderness and hide,
build monasteries or fortresses, bomb shelters,
bury some cash and gold coins in the back yard,
buy some guns,
speculate about the ID of the a/c,


we don't have specific instructions of HOW TO AVOID THE MARK OF THE BEAST.........other than the MARK will be forced upon everyone

what were our instructions?
preach the gospel, make disciples, comfort one another with these words,.........etc

"comfort one another with these words"

DM knows what this means

I got to tell you, after reading what you said, "the MARK will be forced upon everyone." The Mark will not be force
upon everyone. Their maybe situation where a person, might have to give up, her or his life, but I tell now, DO NOT GET
THAT MARK. (under no circumstances) That is a first class ticket, to the lake of fire.

Lets take a look at that....Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This is very simple, with the mark, you can buy or sell, without the mark you cannot buy or sell.
This do not mean you have to get the mark. Now, in this tough situation, people have manage to
get by without getting the mark.

Let take a look at that....Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them

Now we can clearly read, that people came out of the Great Tribulation, and did not get the Mark.

Speaking the truth of Christ For the gain of pleasing the true God of heaven and earth.

How dare you speak evil of the word of God and continue spreading the Lies of the hirelings who sell their defiled god in books and seminars for money.

The Lord Himself rebuke you.

Satan speaks in circles and is the king of "rapture" rebuttal. Those who follow his song will sing it.

I think this may answer your question.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Revelation 6:12-14)

Here we see John says, “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together.” Matthew stated, “They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Thus we have the sign of the Son of man meaning, the sky will be opened and every eye shall see Him. As we go further in this study we will see that the Lord will not come down right away. His sign will remain in the sky for approximately five months. Let’s continue at the 15th verse.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6:15-17)

The book of Joel 3:12...states, “For there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.” Note the verse states, I sit to judge. John states in Revelation, “him that was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. So, the one who will judge and make war is none other than Jesus. There’s something very note worthy in the first part of the above verse were it is states, “I saw heaven opened.” Remember in Revelation the sixth chapter the heavens were rolled together as a scroll.

Lets go to Acts 7:55... But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

You spoke that way about Christ. I see nothing has changed.

Matthew 10
25 If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household!

"You spoke that way about Christ. I see nothing has changed."

You speak lies here .... like your mentor.

"I think this may answer your question."

Wrong answer.

You confuse Revelation's 6:12-16 account of the "beginning" of the tribulation period with the "ending" appearance of the Lord in Matthew 24:29-31. These events are not the same and are separated by time lapse.