The return of Christ shall come as a surprise, a thief in the night to those that are not aware of its prophetic order. Many have been mislead by the mega-church movement, and tele-evangelist into believing the return of Christ can be at any moment, without any qualifying factors, or fulfillment of prophecies preceeding first. This thread is being created to display that a pretribulational rapture is not only wishful thinking but false doctrine.

Many large church movements and universities, such has BJU, Hyles, Trinity, Fairhaven, Jack Van Impe, Bennie Hen, etc have misguided and mislead the public into believing God will deliver them as Christians from the wrath of Satan, soon to come on the world. This religious dogma blaphemes God's word and contradicts church prophecy and Church history and experience as a whole.

Over the next several weeks we will discuss this with each other to prove the most pure doctrine of the return of Christ as we possibly can. My hopes are to find at least one convert that will be transformed from pretribulational rapture theory to the post tribulation Blessed Hope, or return of Christ.

I look forward to a study on this. I am a born and raised Lutheran and they do not believe in the Rapture.

Blessings, Dianne

I want to say I love this Christian forum. I believe it is the best. If this were some other forums, I would have been excommunicated for speaking the truth, contrary to popular belief. Thanks for the opportunity to express beliefs in God's word.

In order to make a proof that Jack Van Impe and many other mainstream conservatives, as BJU, Hyles, Liberty, Fairhaven, Maranatha, Clearwater, Oklahoma Baptist, Trinity, Tennessee Temple, and many others are wrong and misleading flocks with a false doctrine we must first start with early church history. to build a base. We do not need church history to prove the Bible as the scripture speaks for itself. But if we can prove that early saints believed what the scriptures already teach, then we can prove that the pretribulational rapture is wishful thinking, false doctrine, and tradition that started in the mid 1800's of so by apostate christian leaders that wanted to break away because of discontentments. This is the authors goal. To prove a bunch of goof balls came up with this false doctrine.

During this time period, America was young, undeveloped, and vulnerable to its apostate shepards. Soon it easily became the tradition and standard for most churches and movements. As America grew, this false doctrine grew with it and its churches. People followed paradosis or tradition rather than the holy scriptures

There fore this eroneous, wicked, false doctrine crept into the church starting in the mid 1800's.

I want to say I love this Christian forum. I believe it is the best. If this were some other forums, I would have been excommunicated for speaking the truth, contrary to popular belief. Thanks for the opportunity to express beliefs in God's word.

In order to make a proof that Jack Van Impe, the 700 Club, and many other mainstream conservatives, as BJU, Hyles, Liberty, Fairhaven, Maranatha, Clearwater, Oklahoma Baptist, Trinity, Tennessee Temple, and many others are wrong and misleading flocks with a false doctrine we must first start with early church history. to build a base. We do not need church history to prove the Bible as the scripture speaks for itself. But if we can prove that early saints believed what the scriptures already teach, then we can prove that the pretribulational rapture is wishful thinking, false doctrine, and tradition that started in the mid 1800's or so by apostate christian leaders that wanted to break away because of discontentments. This is the authors goal. To prove a bunch of goof balls came up with this false doctrine. As member of the body of Christ we have the responsiblity to seek out truth and the discernment to find and understand it.

During this time period of church history, America was young, undeveloped, growing, and vulnerable to its apostate shepards. Soon it, pretribulationalism, easily became the tradition and standard for most churches and movements. As America grew, this false doctrine grew with it and its churches. People followed paradosis or tradition rather than the holy scriptures. The fragmented masses of early America seeking religious guidance and religeous freedom allow this deceit to infultrate the early Western Church settings. The early American church was vulnerable to this false doctrine of pretribulatonalism.

As in early America, most most modern day evangelicals have been taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario as established fact. Most if not very few have ever had a chance to hear the Post-Tribulation Rapture position expounded. As a matter of fact most pretribulation Rapture believers have never even expounded the pretribulation heresy. The have neglected their personal responsibility to seek truth and find it in God's word. They have been programmed by mere tradition to believe that the Pre-Trib Rapture is the biblically correct truth concerning the closing dramas of this age.

But are they correct about this early secret Rapture seen nowhere in the Bible?
Is there any sound scriptural proof of this?
Do they have any solid Biblical evidence for it at all? The answers to all these questions are no, no, no. There is nothing in the Bible that even hints to this dogma. It is merely wishful thinking and a fairy tale, supported by a corrupted church or evengelical movement, lost in its historic heretical tradition.


Church History Proves a Late Post-Tribulation Rapture

Here in this segment we will start with modern day examples and move on to more ancient ones. We will proceed in reverse chronilogical order. We will save the best for the last as the old saying goes.

As believers we must be able to diipher the difference between tribulation, persecution, and the wrath of God. We are told in I Thessalonians Chapter 5, Verse 9 says, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Pretribers take this verse and interpret it as saying, God hath noth appointed you to tribulation and persecution, brought on by Satan. He has appointed you to obtain salvation, by a secret rapture, that noone knows about. Now does that verse really say that. No, ofcourse not, but rather, they should interpret this, God has not appointed you to the fires of hell but to obain salvation throught the blood of Christ. God has not appointed you to the wrath he will pour out on this world during the Great Tribulation, but to obtain, divine deliverence as he did with the children of Israel in Egypt, during the Exodus. As saints we will not be immuned to the persecutions and tribulations that Satan will pour out on the saints. We will however be immuned to the wrath God will pour out on the unsaved, Mathew 24:15-21, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 9:25-27, Mark 13:1-37, Revelation 6:1-17, Gods Wrath on the unsaved is seen in Revelation 8:1-13. , Revelation 13, Revelation 15:1,2, Revelation 20:4-6. Now that we have a reasonalble idea of the differences between God'd wrath, and Satan's persecution, and tribulation we can go on to the first early saint in reverse chronilogical order.

Corrie Ten Boom is a survivor of Hitler's Holocaust. CORRIE TEN BOOM IN THIS LETTER BELOW COMMENTS ON THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE VIEW WHICH IS POPULAR TODAY. AND SHE RELAYS A WORD OF WARNING TO US IN THE WEST FROM THE SUFFERING YET VICTORIOUS UNDERGROUND CHURCH IN CHINA. SHE EXHORTS US TO PREPARE OURSELVES SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST, IN HIS HOLY WORD, AND BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT FOR THE COMING TRIALS OF OUR FAITH. SHE TELLS OF THE CHINESE CHURCH IN A FORMER TIME BEING MISINFORMED, UNWARNED, AND ILL-PREPARED FOR THE PERSECUTIONS THAT BEGAN IN 1949 UNDER MAO TSE TUNG'S RED GUARDS. IN THIS LETTER CORRIE ALSO WARNS THAT CHRISTIANS IN THE WEST TODAY ARE ALSO IN DANGER OF FALLING INTO A SIMILAR DISASTER BORN OF PASTORAL NEGLECT AND UNPREPAREDNESS. CORRIE, IN CLASSIC DUTCH DIRECTNESS, PLAINLY STATES THAT THOSE WHO TEACH A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE ARE AMONG THE FALSE TEACHERS JESUS WARNED US ABOUT. (-Mat.24:4-5) Many shall say here is Christ or there, believe them not. Christ in his entirety is found in Word of God. There are no gimics or secret codes or traditions to follow.

Corrie Ten Boom a Christian girl in Holland during World War II, lived there at that time the German Nazis controlled Europe. She, her sister, and father were captured by the Germans. Their crime was sheltering Jews. For this they were sent to the camps. Only Corrie survived. Corrie Ten Boom was a woman of faith and commitment to her Jesus. She knows of God's provision during the inevitable trials of our faith. This incredible woman of God is a lone voice speaking out for scriptural truth in the present eschatological wilderness. She has sounded a trumpet warning to American and western Christians. She has spoken out very specifically about the popular Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching abroad today. Here is Corrie Ten Boom's warning to the American church.


Here is part of it, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY SERIOUS BLOOD COVENANT ISSUE. WE MUST DISCARD ALL OUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND FANCIES. LET US SEARCH THE HOLY SCRIPTURES WITH ALL DILIGENCE IN TRUE BEREAN FAITHFULNESS. NOWHWERE IN SCRIPTURE SHALL WE FIND ONE SINGLE VERSE TO PROVE THAT WESTERN CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS ARE "OUTTA HERE" BEFORE THE RESURRECTION AT THE END OF THIS AGE. HOLY HISTORY STILL AWAITS THE "FINAL WITNESS" OF THE SAINTS. THE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL PLAY THIS CRUCIAL ROLE IN THE END-TIME DRAMA. THE LATTER DAYS WILL SEE THE SAINTS GO UP ONTO THE STAGE OF HISTORY. BUT SAD TO REPORT, OUR PRESENT DAY LUKEWARM COMPROMISED LAODICEAN CHURCH IS SILENT ABOUT THIS. THE RELIGIOUS HIERARCHIES DO NOT SEEM TO THINK THAT SHARING THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION FROM BIBLE PROPHECY IS IMPORTANT. BUT MESSIAH'S RETURN IS AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. HE HAS GIVEN US HIS WORD ON THE MATTER. AND CHRISTIANS WHO HOLD A BIBLICAL WORLD VIEW ARE PAYING ATTENTION AND TAKING THE INITIATIVE THEMSELVES. THEY ARE PREPARING THEIR HEARTS.

SO IN THE MAINSTREAM CHURCHES THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS A NEGLECTED AND ALMOST FORGOTTEN TRUTH. "RELIGI-BUSINESS" COMES FIRST FOR THEM IT SEEMS. AND SO THESE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF CHRISTIAN MINISTRY ARE BEING SORELY NEGLECTED. CHURCHMEN ARE FAILING TO WARN AND PREPARE COMFORTABLE WESTERN CHRISTIANS TO TAKE UP THEIR CROSS. VERY FEW CHRISTIANS ARE EVEN AWARE THAT AT SOME FUTURE TIME, (PROBABLY IN THEIR LIFETIME), THE NATIONAL FLAGS WILL COME DOWN AND THIS WORLD WILL ENTER INTO A NEW WORLD ORDER. AND JUST AS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, THE HISTORY OF THIS PRESENT AGE WILL ENTER INTO ITS FINAL PHASE. JESUS SAID THAT HIS FOLLOWERS WOULD BE CALLED UPON TO TAKE THEIR STAND BEFORE KINGS AND RULERS. BUT TODAY'S OVER-INDULGED WESTERN CHRISTIANS HAVE NEVER CONSIDERED THAT THE PEOPLE JESUS HAS SPOKEN ABOUT MIGHT BE THEM.

Gideon7620 said, now in the past we have been lied to, preached to, and told that Christ can come anytime and we should be prepared. This preperation involves church membership to false doctrine, working hard to make the church numbers grow, and giving all you can to the church, and singing God bless America. Aferall, we must be ready as they claim Jesus will come at any moment. So you better prepare and work for the church and stand behind the country. Now this preparation seems to lack preparation.

On the other hand a post trib view is, no Jesus can not come at any moment, yet, atleast. First we must experience all the prophecies first, the wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, plagues, and a new world order. We further must witness the rebuilding of the wall and temple, the abomination that make desolate, the persecution and murders of many saints wprld wide (including and spawning from America or the Harlot Babylon), God's divine deliverences and his plagues he will pour out on the antichrist and the unsaved. Then will the sky be darkened; probably resulting from Hydrogen bombs and warfare. Then and only then will the son of man return in the clouds of Heaven, having great Glory and parosia, brilliant power. For this reason he shall destroy Satan with the brightness and power of His return. Jesus's glory is too great to be hidden or kept secret in a mysterious hidden return. Nowhere do we see or read, he will not be seen in his return. In Revealation 1 we are told every eye shall see him. That must be a very glorious sight for all to see. In the end of his great commission we are told in like manner as you have seen him go so shall he return, in clouds and great glory, parosia.

LQQk at me, as Jack Van Impe would say, surely these false prophets want you to believe Jesus is coming anytime. They are preparing the saints for a unexpected and unlearned of slaughter by Babylon, America. We will be here for the slaughter, but they want you to think, Jesus would never do that to his bride. Well he has done it for 2,000 years and what makes you think matters will suddenly change. They also want you to do all you can to for Jesus as he could come at anytime, so give me more money. Now you do not want Jesus to be upset if you do not give all you can. Give me more, he could come right now, today. That is a lie of the devil as much prophecy must be fulfilled yet. The pretribulation rapture VIEW has been used by churches to extort more money and resources from people over the ages. Jesus can come anytime so give more of your time, money and energy to the pastor and church. Forget about all the other important matters. Do not dare question the pastor on this matter. He is a man of God and knows all, inspite of what you read and interpret in the Bible. Only great men of wisdom can figure out the simple complexity of the return of Christ. Reminds me of the Wizard Of Ozz, as Dorothy and all are told by the Ozz man, "hey don't look behind that curtain. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I am the great Ozz." Church setting and its heirarchy is all too comparable and simular.

Now we can jump back in History and see many saints persecuted and martyred for their faith in Jesus. These well known saints also clung to a biblical interpretation of a post tribulational rapture. However, when surrounded by the pressure of piers in Amercian evangelicalism, one has the tendency to go with the crowd, a monkey see monkey do mentality. We see this largely also in the Roman Catholic Church. No Roman Catholic dare question the authority and qualification of the Pope, Bishops or Priests. Though as true believers in God's word and as considering it our only authority for righteous judgement and Christian living we know they are wrong. As a bishop, shepard, pastor, and overseer must first be married, and the husband of one wife, not one practicing celebacy and molesting little altar boys. There are other qualifications also, as we know. Catholics do not see this and yeild to pier pressure and cultism. This monkey see and do mentality is carried on to doctrinal interpretation amoungst Protestants with regard to escatology. Most believe in the pretrib falacy because their pastor does, as his daddy, the Christian College he went to does also, and his pastor does as well. Unfortunately, they have never taken a close look at it in scripture to easily prove otherwise as we will learn here later.

Carl F. Keil (AD 1807-1888) " … the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the Church of the Lord ... (Biblical Commentary, YXMV, p. 503)15

Charles Hodge (AD 1797-1878) "...the fate of his Church here on earth ... is the burden of the Apocalypse" (Systematic Theology, III, p. 827)14

Morgan Edwards (AD 1722-1795) "[Antichrist] has hitherto assumed no higher title than 'the vicar general of Christ on earth'..."(Two Academical Exercises etc., p. 20)13


Roger Williams (AD 1603-1683) "Antichrist ... hath his prisons, to keep Christ Jesus and his members fast " (The Bloody Tenent etc., p. 153)12


John Knox (AD 1515-1572) “the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come ... to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist... " (The Historie of the Reformation etc., 1, p. 76)11

Martin Luther (AD 1483-1546) "[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church.... " (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481)10


Roger Bacon (AD 1214-1274) " … future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist... " (Opus Majus II, p. 634)9


Pseudo-Ephraem (perhaps 400 or 600 A.D.) was a man who "borrowed" materials from the real Ephraem of Syria, ---and some pre-tribulationists have taken several sentences out of context, in an attempt to say that there was an early date for the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. The main two sentences of Pseudo-Ephraem which are quoted, state : "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare oursleves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms all the world? ... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they ever see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." ---Note, that these quoted sentences do not mention a coming of the Lord, or a resurrection of the dead or a glorification (translation) or a heavenly destination of believers.

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3) 6



Cyprian (200 to 260 A.D.) writes, "Nor let any of you, beloved brethren, be terrified by the fear of future persecution, by the coming of the threatening Antichrist" (Epistle 55,7). And we do well to take Cyprian's advice, since the Lord's grace is sufficient for true believers to be victorious in any situation.

Tertullian (150 to 220 A.D.) attached the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, to the start of Christ's millennial kingdom on earth. Tertullian said the tribulation situation will be such "that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God" (On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv).

Irenaeus (130 to 200 A.D.) who said he held the actual apostles' teaching, wrote, "they [the ten kings of Rev. 17:1-13] shall ...give their kingdom to the beast [Antichrist], and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1). Irenaeus also said : "but he [John] indicates the number of the name [666 of Antichrist] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is" ( Against Heresies V, 30, 4).

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)1

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in wh


Justin Martyr (100 to 167 A.D.) lived near the time of the apostle John (died 100 A.D.); Justin taught the resurrection and rapture of believers would occur at the beginning of the millennium (Christ's 1000-year reign, which starts just after the Second Coming). Justin also wrote, "the man of apostasy [Antichrist] ...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians" (Trypho cx).

Now, if Justin Martyr was all the proof we had along with scripture I would certainly believe in a post tribulation rapture or a premellinial rapture. The Bible alone should convince us, but thanks be to God we have the testimony of many great Christian men to help with that process. Historically, it is easy to prove there was no such thing as a pre tribulation rapture thought even. There is nothing purer than the laws of first mention. We see clearly that early saints followed and practiced the doctrines and teachings of the apostles, even unto death.

Today we want big screen TV, Pepsi, beer, fast food, and a football game. With this Western Christians are content.

[34] I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. [35] Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

Where did the one taken, from the bed go ?

Where did the one grinding grain, that was taken go ?


http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/17_26-37.htm
Luke 17:20-37 (We considered 17:20-25 last week, this week we focus on 17:26-37)

[20] Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, [21] nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

[22] Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. [23] Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. [24] For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. [25] But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

[26] "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. [27] People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

[28] "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. [29] But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

[30] "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. [31] On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. [32] Remember Lot's wife! [33] Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [34] I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. [35] Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

[37] "Where, Lord?" they asked.

Gideon said, no, Anglo's are just that Anglo's. By no means are they Jews. Jewish people for the most part have olive colored skin. Now you have the Saphardic Jews that exiled in 1492 for refusing to forcefully convert to Catholicism, but they were Spaniards and Portugese, with last names as Diaz, Sanchez, Fernandez, and Gonzalez. As a matter of fact, in Surinam South America we see them establish the first, Jewish Synagogue which still stands to this day. Nowhere do we see this with the Anglo's that claim to be Jews. Remember what Christ said, in Revelation Chapter 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan. American establishment is of the synagogue of Satan, the great Babylonian whore.

Are you suggesting, that Queen Elizabeth I, is not of the Davidic Crown ?

http://eyesofthemadonna.blogspot.com/2008/...lizabeth-i.html

And what about this >


http://pipestoneamerindiansfromisrael.blogspot.com/

Pipestone Amerindians from Israel
Post #57
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...mp;#entry192909
QUOTE (crownsevenalphabet @ May 24 2008, 05:20 AM)

The story of how I started the Amerindian's from Israel, research :


Journey from this point backward, to my message of August 13th, 1995,
about Pipestone, MN . . .

Last week 5/12/2008, Britam.org posted in the newsletter they sent me, the proof of the 'Amerindians From Israel', DNA, of certain tribes who are of the Lost 10 Tribes of Israel. Newsletter #1148.

All these tribes are connected to the `red` rock quarries to utilize the
pipestone for Sac-Fox, Otto, Mandan, Kiowa, Hidatsa, Dakota, Lakota, Cheyenne and Ojibwa. http://www.pipekeepers.org/


( two research web links of DNA, proof of 'Amerindians From Israel' )

(1)
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/r...8-05/1210357072
The X haplogroup FTdna Family group gives the Druze as X2b and the Native
American/First Peoples (Ojibwa, Nuu-Chah-Nulth, Sioux, Na-Dene-Navaho,
Yakima) as X2a.


(2)
Native American/First Peoples; Ojibwa
Amerindians From Israel? New Evidence?
http://britam.org/DNA/BAMAD29.html#Amerindians

Are you suggesting, that Queen Elizabeth I, is not of the Davidic Crown ?

Gideon said, absolutely, no anglo is of the Tribe of Judah, as David is or of any Hebrew tribe for that matter. She is anglo, WASP, not Jewish, nor did she ever dream of having olive colored skin. Now the American Indian and Maya and Aztecs are a different story. They came from somewhere and knew how to build pyramids and knew of the creator and his return to earth, more so than modern day Western churches know about the second coming of Christ. Well some believes the Jews built the pyramids, and also they new about the Messiah coming for the second time, and as prophecied missed his first birth.

It is ok, we can have differences . . . however, I know she is of the Davidic ~

Have you read the ' Bloodline of the Holy Grail ` . . . the ancestry is listed.

Plus, I have the ancestry research of Charles and Lady Di, both :

And here is some more info . . .

http://www.bible-codes.org/audio-bible-cod...-st.Malachy.htm

In this excerpt, and throughout the audio, we explain how that the comets and eclipses of 2004 were heavenly signs and that their interpretation is found in the imagery of the biblical account of how the patriarch Jacob labored seven years for a wife---and then another seven years again after that for a second wife, (1929 to 1922 to 1915 BC---according to generally accepted chronologies). (Compare the seven-year covenant Jacob makes with Laban in regards to a wife and Daniel 9:24-27, Revelation 11-13, and 19). In the audio we explained how that the four eclipses of 2004 are connected to Jacob's labor for a wife numerically. In the picture bible code on the right side we see the lion Roll your mouse slowing over image for additional information on what this bible code reads.)

We spoke of how solar eclipses signify two things, the death and resurrection of the sun (a type of Christ on the cross---when the sun went dark at noon and then came out as He died), and of a marriage, (such as Jacob's marriage). We said that this interpretation was what the Lord showed me some months ago and that the burial of the Pope on the day of the unusual "Hybrid" solar eclipse and of the marriage of Prince Charles 12 hours after the eclipse brought out this great truth in that both of them are king/priests who sit (or will sit) in a place reserved for Christ. (Queen Elisabeth is the symbolic head of the Church of England.) Jesus is the only lawful King and Priest---He is the root of King David. Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah, as the picture bible code declares, which is confirmed by the Bible in the book of Revelation.

( end of excerpt )

http://www.biblemysteries.com/library/queen.htm
Cities in early times often changed names, or were given different names, due to famous men who restored or rebuilt the sites, or to men who established the priority of their names in a genealogical line. Take for example the change of the name of Aegialea to Sicyon in Greece....Was there at TARA a famous king with the name of Ariel whose blood line rules today in the British Royal Family? Indeed there was. Of four sons of Gede the Herimon, only the LINE OF IRIAL (Irish for Ariel) continued to rule from Tara. His name was as RARE in Irish history as the name DAVID was in Jewish history!

These scant evidences of history are more than mere coincidence. NO OTHER PLACE ON EARTH bears the names of Eber, of Dan, of David, of Ariel. -- "Compendium of World History." Vol. I. Ambassador College, Pasadena, CA. 1963. Pp. 426-427.



Some claim that a daughter of Ollamh Fodhla (David) -- or one of his sons or grandsons -- married into the line of Heremon, thus healing the breach and making it possible for Queen Elizabeth to be descended from David. There is NO EVIDENCE of this ever happening, however. In our article, "Joseph of Arimathea and David's Throne in Britain" we show WHERE the breach was healed -- write for this exciting information about the LINE OF JOSEPH in Britain!

However, if a "healing of the breach" occurred at some time during the long histories of the British royal houses -- then the line of David may still exist in the person of the present Queen of England!



The bottom line is, though, that the reign of the Davidic line in Jerusalem is TEMPORARILY INTERRUPTED. Another line of David, however, was established in the house of Israel in exile. Nevertheless, the royal line of Judah (through Zarah) DID go to Ireland (during the time of Moses) in the person of Heremon, who was the son of Gathelus and the great-great-grandson of Judahthus fulfilling the prophecy in Genesis 49:10: "The scepter shall NOT depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes...."

Here is the full study . . . of the Queen's Davidic line . . .

http://www.exodus2006.com/JimWright/Lia-fail-paper1-1.htm

This is the Throne of England with the stone removed –
On either side of the throne (outside the photo) there are 2 - 6 foot tall menorahs. One on each side.



http://www.exodus2006.com/JimWright/Lia-fail-paper1-1.htm

NOTES

The only 2 books in the Old Testament that are attributed to Jeremiah (and his scribe Baruch) are Jeremiah and Lamentations. Most of the legends have Jeremiah and Baruch removing the stone and the king’s daughters from Jerusalem.

The term Lia-fail occurs the most often (14 times) in Jeremiah which isn’t very remarkable since it has the most letters in the Old Testament but the next closest book (in letter count) is Psalms which is just slightly shorter than Jeremiah and the term is only found 3 times.

The occurrence of Lia-fail the least likely to appear by random chance is in the other book written by Jeremiah, Lamentations and the odds are apx. 500,000 to 1 that it occurred by random chance.

Jim Wright now has his own website at http://www.lumberguy.net/
all questions and comments are welcome lumberguy2003@yahoo.com



Lia-fail” is also known as “the Stone of Scone”, “Jacob’s Pillow Stone”, “Jacob’s Pillar Stone”, and the “Coronation Stone”.

It is thought by many to be the stone that Jacob used for a pillow when camping at Luz where Jacob had his first encounter with the LORD:

“ And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not .And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.” Genesis 28.10-22

Bethel means “House of God”.

It is also thought by some to be “the rock” which Moses struck with his staff in Exodus 17.4-7 to bring forth water as he was commanded and “the rock” which he was commanded by the LORD to speak to, but he struck instead Exodus 20.6-12, angering the LORD who banned him from entering the Promised Land.

The Israelite custom of anointing their kings on or by a pillar is alluded to in 2 Kings 11.12-14, when Joash was anointed King of Judah “standing by the pillar, as the custom was”.

Most of the legends have the stone being removed from Jerusalem by Jeremiah and his scribe Baruch just before the Babylonian invasion. The Bible records them going to Egypt with King Zedekiah’s daughters (Jeremiah 41.11-18) but doesn’t mention the stone. The stone ended up in Ireland, where the princesses were married to Irish royalty and was later transferred to Scotland, and eventually captured and taken to England about 700 years ago where it has been used to crown every king and queen since.

http://www.pharez.com/pharez.html

In my view, the Scots can trace their fascinating origins to the patriarch Judah and his widowed daughter-in-law Tamar (1 Chronicles 2: 3, 4). The Messianic bloodline was to start through a twin of theirs who would first exit the womb. Amazingly, one of them, Zerah, drew back a hand and fate favored the other, Pharez, instead. A breach was then placed upon them that could only be done away with through intermarriages between their respective royal lineages at a later time. From Pharez can be traced the ruling House of David and Gaelic High Kings as accepted in British Israelism.

Zerah-Pharez

Bethlehem-Judah, the city of King David was founded by Salma, who was a direct descendant of the spy "from the tribe of Judah" called "Caleb, the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite." The Kenezites were descendants of Kenaz, son of Eliphaz, the son of Esau. Caleb was also a member of the tribe of Judah because he was of the progeny of Pharez one of the twins born from the union of Judah, the son of JacobTamar.


William Pharez LEETE
g0000073

The breach of Pharez (Jerahmeel) and Zerah (Zimri) was finally and officially restored at the time when Kenneth I MacAlpin (843-858 AD) united the Scots (Pharez) and Picts (Zerah) as a single nation with one undisputed monarchy. Thus was Prophecy and Divine Purpose fulfilled! Zerah-Pharez Pharez

Duffield
G0000322

Let me make it perfectly clear that although the royal house of Britain is NOT diredescended from King David of Israel through the MALE LINE, it is, in all likelihood, descended from King David through a wife or female descendant of this king who married into the line of Brutus. If this was the case, Queen Elizabeth is decended from Judah through BOTH the lines of Zarah and Pharez. The line of Zarah was brought to Ireland by Heremon the grandson of Calcol; and the line of Pharez came to Britain when Joseph of Arimathea founded the Church of God at Glastonbury. Read our article "The Stone That Roared: The Incredible Story of Lia Fail" for further details of the line of Zarah arriving in Ireland.

Hello Crown7

That is very interesting......keep going....

God Bless <><

Now we can proceed on to the next part of this subject see how and when the false doctrine of pre tribulation rapture came about. We will clearly see that a few discontented church members and leaders started this movement. It spread rapidly over a sparcely populated nation, as most Americans considered themselves to be Christian, church going, and religious. The timing for Satan to plant this seed of deceit could not have been any better. As America grew, this doctrine grew with it. Soon, one was ridiculed for believing any differently. The monkey see monkey do cult had set in and none dare question church authority. Church authority not dare question its heretical teachers about this dogma as it displaced leaders from leading church movements. A compliance or be cast out religious practice was set in motion. So if you want to be part of or be accepted by a movement as Fundamentalism, Darbyism, etc, than you had better, comply; otherwise mission boards would not support you, chuches and church leaders would not accept you as a personal friend or speaker of any sorts. People gave in as lambs to the slaughter.

Not only did the early Church teach that the Church would face Antichrist, and that Christ would return at the beginning of the Millennium, but in all of Church history, there is never a pre-tribulation rapture teaching, until Edward Irving writes of it in the 1830s A.D. -----So, the pre-trib rapture teaching is only 170 years old (and the mid-trib teaching is even more recent). Whle the Post Tribulational doctrine in in ancient Torah writings, The Holy Bilble, and practiced to the death by ancient saints. This has proved the test of time.

Hey ya God's Lamb:

Ok . . . I do not want to high-jack the topic :

http://www.giveshare.org/israel/judah/part2ch01.html

Here's one more ^ for the road . . .

[Here in this segment we will start with modern day examples and move on to more ancient ones. We will proceed in reverse chronilogical order. We will save the best for the last as the old saying goes.

As believers we must be able to diipher the difference between tribulation, persecution, and the wrath of God. We are told in I Thessalonians Chapter 5, Verse 9 says, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Pretribers take this verse and interpret it as saying, God hath noth appointed you to tribulation and persecution, brought on by Satan. He has appointed you to obtain salvation, by a secret rapture, that noone knows about. Now does that verse really say that. No, ofcourse not, but rather, they should interpret this, God has not appointed you to the fires of hell but to obain salvation throught the blood of Christ. God has not appointed you to the wrath he will pour out on this world during the Great Tribulation, but to obtain, divine deliverence as he did with the children of Israel in Egypt, during the Exodus. As saints we will not be immuned to the persecutions and tribulations that Satan will pour out on the saints. We will however be immuned to the wrath God will pour out on the unsaved, Mathew 24:15-21, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 9:25-27, Mark 13:1-37, Revelation 6:1-17, Gods Wrath on the unsaved is seen in Revelation 8:1-13. , Revelation 13, Revelation 15:1,2, Revelation 20:4-6. Now that we have a reasonalble idea of the differences between God'd wrath, and Satan's persecution, and tribulation we can go on to the first early saint in reverse chronilogical order.

Corrie Ten Boom is a survivor of Hitler's Holocaust. CORRIE TEN BOOM IN THIS LETTER BELOW COMMENTS ON THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE VIEW WHICH IS POPULAR TODAY. AND SHE RELAYS A WORD OF WARNING TO US IN THE WEST FROM THE SUFFERING YET VICTORIOUS UNDERGROUND CHURCH IN CHINA. SHE EXHORTS US TO PREPARE OURSELVES SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST, IN HIS HOLY WORD, AND BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT FOR THE COMING TRIALS OF OUR FAITH. SHE TELLS OF THE CHINESE CHURCH IN A FORMER TIME BEING MISINFORMED, UNWARNED, AND ILL-PREPARED FOR THE PERSECUTIONS THAT BEGAN IN 1949 UNDER MAO TSE TUNG'S RED GUARDS. IN THIS LETTER CORRIE ALSO WARNS THAT CHRISTIANS IN THE WEST TODAY ARE ALSO IN DANGER OF FALLING INTO A SIMILAR DISASTER BORN OF PASTORAL NEGLECT AND UNPREPAREDNESS. CORRIE, IN CLASSIC DUTCH DIRECTNESS, PLAINLY STATES THAT THOSE WHO TEACH A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE ARE AMONG THE FALSE TEACHERS JESUS WARNED US ABOUT. (-Mat.24:4-5) Many shall say here is Christ or there, believe them not. Christ in his entirety is found in Word of God. There are no gimics or secret codes or traditions to follow.

Corrie Ten Boom a Christian girl in Holland during World War II, lived there at that time the German Nazis controlled Europe. She, her sister, and father were captured by the Germans. Their crime was sheltering Jews. For this they were sent to the camps. Only Corrie survived. Corrie Ten Boom was a woman of faith and commitment to her Jesus. She knows of God's provision during the inevitable trials of our faith. This incredible woman of God is a lone voice speaking out for scriptural truth in the present eschatological wilderness. She has sounded a trumpet warning to American and western Christians. She has spoken out very specifically about the popular Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching abroad today. Here is Corrie Ten Boom's warning to the American church.


Here is part of it, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY SERIOUS BLOOD COVENANT ISSUE. WE MUST DISCARD ALL OUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND FANCIES. LET US SEARCH THE HOLY SCRIPTURES WITH ALL DILIGENCE IN TRUE BEREAN FAITHFULNESS. NOWHWERE IN SCRIPTURE SHALL WE FIND ONE SINGLE VERSE TO PROVE THAT WESTERN CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS ARE "OUTTA HERE" BEFORE THE RESURRECTION AT THE END OF THIS AGE. HOLY HISTORY STILL AWAITS THE "FINAL WITNESS" OF THE SAINTS. THE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL PLAY THIS CRUCIAL ROLE IN THE END-TIME DRAMA. THE LATTER DAYS WILL SEE THE SAINTS GO UP ONTO THE STAGE OF HISTORY. BUT SAD TO REPORT, OUR PRESENT DAY LUKEWARM COMPROMISED LAODICEAN CHURCH IS SILENT ABOUT THIS. THE RELIGIOUS HIERARCHIES DO NOT SEEM TO THINK THAT SHARING THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION FROM BIBLE PROPHECY IS IMPORTANT. BUT MESSIAH'S RETURN IS AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. HE HAS GIVEN US HIS WORD ON THE MATTER. AND CHRISTIANS WHO HOLD A BIBLICAL WORLD VIEW ARE PAYING ATTENTION AND TAKING THE INITIATIVE THEMSELVES. THEY ARE PREPARING THEIR HEARTS.

SO IN THE MAINSTREAM CHURCHES THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS A NEGLECTED AND ALMOST FORGOTTEN TRUTH. "RELIGI-BUSINESS" COMES FIRST FOR THEM IT SEEMS. AND SO THESE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF CHRISTIAN MINISTRY ARE BEING SORELY NEGLECTED. CHURCHMEN ARE FAILING TO WARN AND PREPARE COMFORTABLE WESTERN CHRISTIANS TO TAKE UP THEIR CROSS. VERY FEW CHRISTIANS ARE EVEN AWARE THAT AT SOME FUTURE TIME, (PROBABLY IN THEIR LIFETIME), THE NATIONAL FLAGS WILL COME DOWN AND THIS WORLD WILL ENTER INTO A NEW WORLD ORDER. AND JUST AS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, THE HISTORY OF THIS PRESENT AGE WILL ENTER INTO ITS FINAL PHASE. JESUS SAID THAT HIS FOLLOWERS WOULD BE CALLED UPON TO TAKE THEIR STAND BEFORE KINGS AND RULERS. BUT TODAY'S OVER-INDULGED WESTERN CHRISTIANS HAVE NEVER CONSIDERED THAT THE PEOPLE JESUS HAS SPOKEN ABOUT MIGHT BE THEM.

Gideon7620 said, now in the past we have been lied to, preached to, and told that Christ can come anytime and we should be prepared. This preperation involves church membership to false doctrine, working hard to make the church numbers grow, and giving all you can to the church, and singing God bless America. Aferall, we must be ready as they claim Jesus will come at any moment. So you better prepare and work for the church and stand behind the country. Now this preparation seems to lack preparation.

On the other hand a post trib view is, no Jesus can not come at any moment, yet, atleast. First we must experience all the prophecies first, the wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, plagues, and a new world order. We further must witness the rebuilding of the wall and temple, the abomination that make desolate, the persecution and murders of many saints wprld wide (including and spawning from America or the Harlot Babylon), God's divine deliverences and his plagues he will pour out on the antichrist and the unsaved. Then will the sky be darkened; probably resulting from Hydrogen bombs and warfare. Then and only then will the son of man return in the clouds of Heaven, having great Glory and parosia, brilliant power. For this reason he shall destroy Satan with the brightness and power of His return. Jesus's glory is too great to be hidden or kept secret in a mysterious hidden return. Nowhere do we see or read, he will not be seen in his return. In Revealation 1 we are told every eye shall see him. That must be a very glorious sight for all to see. In the end of his great commission we are told in like manner as you have seen him go so shall he return, in clouds and great glory, parosia.

LQQk at me, as Jack Van Impe would say, surely these false prophets want you to believe Jesus is coming anytime. They are preparing the saints for a unexpected and unlearned of slaughter by Babylon, America. We will be here for the slaughter, but they want you to think, Jesus would never do that to his bride. Well he has done it for 2,000 years and what makes you think matters will suddenly change. They also want you to do all you can to for Jesus as he could come at anytime, so give me more money. Now you do not want Jesus to be upset if you do not give all you can. Give me more, he could come right now, today. That is a lie of the devil as much prophecy must be fulfilled yet. The pretribulation rapture VIEW has been used by churches to extort more money and resources from people over the ages. Jesus can come anytime so give more of your time, money and energy to the pastor and church. Forget about all the other important matters. Do not dare question the pastor on this matter. He is a man of God and knows all, inspite of what you read and interpret in the Bible. Only great men of wisdom can figure out the simple complexity of the return of Christ. Reminds me of the Wizard Of Ozz, as Dorothy and all are told by the Ozz man, "hey don't look behind that curtain. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I am the great Ozz." Church setting and its heirarchy is all too comparable and simular.

Now we can jump back in History and see many saints persecuted and martyred for their faith in Jesus. These well known saints also clung to a biblical interpretation of a post tribulational rapture. However, when surrounded by the pressure of piers in Amercian evangelicalism, one has the tendency to go with the crowd, a monkey see monkey do mentality. We see this largely also in the Roman Catholic Church. No Roman Catholic dare question the authority and qualification of the Pope, Bishops or Priests. Though as true believers in God's word and as considering it our only authority for righteous judgement and Christian living we know they are wrong. As a bishop, shepard, pastor, and overseer must first be married, and the husband of one wife, not one practicing celebacy and molesting little altar boys. There are other qualifications also, as we know. Catholics do not see this and yeild to pier pressure and cultism. This monkey see and do mentality is carried on to doctrinal interpretation amoungst Protestants with regard to escatology. Most believe in the pretrib falacy because their pastor does, as his daddy, the Christian College he went to does also, and his pastor does as well. Unfortunately, they have never taken a close look at it in scripture to easily prove otherwise as we will learn here later.

Pseudo-Ephraem (perhaps 400 or 600 A.D.) was a man who "borrowed" materials from the real Ephraem of Syria, ---and some pre-tribulationists have taken several sentences out of context, in an attempt to say that there was an early date for the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. The main two sentences of Pseudo-Ephraem which are quoted, state : "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare oursleves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms all the world? ... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they ever see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." ---Note, that these quoted sentences do not mention a coming of the Lord, or a resurrection of the dead or a glorification (translation) or a heavenly destination of believers.

Cyprian (200 to 260 A.D.) writes, "Nor let any of you, beloved brethren, be terrified by the fear of future persecution, by the coming of the threatening Antichrist" (Epistle 55,7). And we do well to take Cyprian's advice, since the Lord's grace is sufficient for true believers to be victorious in any situation.

Tertullian (150 to 220 A.D.) attached the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, to the start of Christ's millennial kingdom on earth. Tertullian said the tribulation situation will be such "that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God" (On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv).

Irenaeus (130 to 200 A.D.) who said he held the actual apostles' teaching, wrote, "they [the ten kings of Rev. 17:1-13] shall ...give their kingdom to the beast [Antichrist], and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1). Irenaeus also said : "but he [John] indicates the number of the name [666 of Antichrist] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is" ( Against Heresies V, 30, 4).

Justin Martyr (100 to 167 A.D.) lived near the time of the apostle John (died 100 A.D.); Justin taught the resurrection and rapture of believers would occur at the beginning of the millennium (Christ's 1000-year reign, which starts just after the Second Coming). Justin also wrote, "the man of apostasy [Antichrist] ...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians" (Trypho cx).

Now, if Justin Martyr was all the proof we had along with scripture I would certainly believe in a post tribulation rapture or a premellinial rapture. The Bible alone should convince us, but thanks be to God we have the testimony of many great Christian men to help with that process. Historically, it is easy to prove there was no such thing as a pre tribulation rapture thought even. There is nothing purer than the laws of first mention. We see clearly that early saints followed and practiced the doctrines and teachings of the apostles, even unto death.

Today we want big screen TV, Pepsi, beer, fast food, and a football game. With this Western Christians are content. As
[/quote]

Can someone please help me or cantradict me or something. This must be a bore to everyone. Help, give me a comment or something. I feel like the lone stranger or something.

Today we want big screen TV, Pepsi, beer, fast food, and a football game. With this Western Christians are content.

Gideon7620 . . . that is a true statement.

And indeed, I would like to hear exchanges about your topic. Your differences in my
opinion in Queen 1, (the bloodline) . . . does not cause me to not value your opinion.

However, I know one thing only, in The Second Coming of Christ . . .

`the Name Change`, Dream
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...=20564&st=6

Seek Jehovah to hold your crown.


versus


Rev. 3:11 : I am coming quickly. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one may take your crown.


So . . . that is where I stand.

If the rapture happens, I am ready, if Great White Throne happens, I am ready.

If New Jerusalem comes down, I have my bag packed.

---------------- Please know, I support your topic with my heart. However, I do not have
the historial theology background in Biblical studies to entertain a serious exchange. As
you see from the Queen exchanges, I can play in that ball court as a warrior

I will

I loved your post...not boring at all. I agree in that there will be NO rapture to carry us away. We will all be here during the tribulation of Satan and better be ready for the deception.

Gideon and I love your name!

Gideon7620 said thanks so much. I agree we must be ready. Main stream Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism has misinterpreted our belief as we are those that do not demand to be ready. On the contrary, the demand is far greater for us to be ready than for them.

Pretriber think that Jesus will save us from tribulation, even if a so called saint is not right with God. Post Tribers believe, you had better be ready, watching, and aware of world events so the day does not take you on surprise. If the day takes you on surprise, than it is very possible you are of the night and not day, that the day should over take you as a theif, unexpectely. This may very well mean people that can not see the truth in scripture are not saved.

God shall send them strong delusion so that they should believe a lie. That they might all perish which had pleasure in unrighteousness. Now do not get me wrong, I am not saying most pretribers that claim to be Christian are unsaved. I think they need to read their Bible as this most important matter is at our doors now. This is something they need to study and settle. The need to come to the knowlege of the truth is currently overwhelming with our present day circumstances. Well next we will looik at their belief in brief and demonstrate why it is folly and foolish. We will also first see its, origination in the 1830's or so. Finally we will move on to the Bible as hard, Rock, Christ solid proof.

THe Birth Of Pretribulation Rapture

The pretibulation Rapture fairytale came about as early in the 1830's by a man named Irvine. Some have describe it as being the Cinderella of Biblical and prophetic interpretation. In other words, it is merely a fairtale of wishful thinking and hope of a today that is nowhere to be found in Bible prophecy.

If the scriptures do not proclaim a Pretibulation rapture, where does this false teaching come from? In the 1830's, a man by the name of Irving who held services in Ireland spread this dogma, initially. His followers claimed to be Spirit-filled. One night, a fourteen year old girl gave an utterance that the saints would not go through the Great Tribulation. From this utterance the rapture teaching came about, and many believers fell into error. This pseudo teaching was introduced to many other groups in the 1830's and 1840's.

Great leaders of the 1830's disagreed with Irving's teachings. But the Brethren Church, the Plymouth Brethren, and the Scofield Bible spread this error to the United States and to other nations. Dr. Scofield was a close friend of Irving and incorporated the rapture theory in the footnotes of his Bible. The rapture theory has been taught as fact ever since. As we know how popular the Scofield BIble was in early Ameica, and still is.

Here is a special note of interest: Irving, himself, had prophesied the end of the world would come in 1847. But that error was overlooked as the end never came; but the rapture error remains to be taught as truth.

While the ideal came to the US, and had not quite spread yet, Darby was responsible for initiating the blow. Beginning in about 1832 a new teaching and theology began to creep into the churches. One of the first to teach this view was John Nelson Darby, the father of modern Dispensationalism. His theology was later picked up by C. I. Scofield and popularized in The Scofield Study Bible as a result also. So Scofield was affected by two individuals, Irvine and Darby. Several evangelical schools adopted the Dispensational Theology and began to teach it and incorporate it into their doctrinal positions. Many wrote and taught versions of Dispensationalism, but the most popular idea promoted by this theology was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. This idea is very appealing because it teaches that the Church will not have to face the tribulation of the last seven-year period prophesied in Daniel 9:27. Many authors and teachers have become incredibly popular promoting the idea of a Pre-Tribulation escape for the Church and have been able to sell millions of books. Today in Christian bookstores the most popular end times books, whether theological or fictional, promote this new teaching of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. There have even been feature length motion pictures released promoting this new doctrine.

The original and true teaching of Scripture is now maintained by a relatively small remnant of believers. They continue to hold to the clear statements of Scripture regarding the return of Christ. The Bible states that the resurrection of all believers will take place after the Antichrist when Christ returns to establish His Kingdom on the Day of the Lord. The Great and terrible day of the Lord is one event, not two or three, just one.

If, then, the pretribulation rapture is false teaching, how do the expositors of the rapture use the scriptures to prove this belief? Number one, they twist the scriptures to get them to say what they want them to say. Those who teach the rapture, apparently have little spiritual insight in the Word of Truth regarding the end time events. They also have very little insight with the Bilble in general. Jesus said, In this world you shall have tribulation, suffering, and persecution not rapture and freedom from the terror of Satan. He teaches us the opposite.

Yet in today's mainstream Christian Colleges, Churches, Movements, Mission Boards etc., claim the preetribualtion rapture is not only taught, but one is demanded to pledge allegiance, acceptance and belief to this false doctrine. Missionaries can be decommissioned for believing otherwise. Churches and Colleges will not support or ordain one without having allegiance to this falacy. Mission boards and churches will not support a person who believes in a post trib fact. Christians will be ostrecized for believing this doctrine. The attitude is the pastor believes it so you must also/ as I was told in Bible college by my professor 22 years ago. It is a complete state of tradition and pier pressure that has been built up since its inception. Yet all are foolish enough to believe it and not study the facts, even the leaders. So we see a monkey see monkey do type senario.

There are many that teach rapture simply because it was taught to them and they believe their teacher. Others believe it because it offers a way of escape from the tribulation....they don't realize that the tribulation is one of deception and rapture is the biggest proponent of that deception. Then there are others. Those are the ones that purposely teach rapture knowing it for what it is....an evil lie! As Jesus said....Ye do the deeds of your father." [John 8:41]

first of all i would just like to say that i agree that this forum is one of a kind. no other forum would allow me to discuss some of the things i do without "excommunicating" me. indeed, i have never met such a large group of open-minded, spirit-filled christians. it truly is a blessing.

second, i believe people have different views regarding exactly what the "great tribulation" is. surely christians are not exempt from tribulation, in the general sense of the term. indeed, that is what we are here for.

however, scripture is quite clear that true, genuine believers will never be subject to the wrath of god. to say that we will not face tribulation, in the general sense of the term, is being optimistic. but i believe that to think christians will face god's wrath is being ignorant.

it is my personal opinion that the holy spirit has been leading me to believe that the departure of true, genuine christians into the heavens will take place before the wrath of god is poured out. this "wrath" may very well take the form of a geographical pole shift. john's description of the sixth seal seems to justify this theory.

now this does not mean we won't face difficult times before these cataclysmic events begin transpiring. in fact, i have become convinced that the world is going to take quite a turn here in the very near future. the next world war, terrorist attack, or both may be the catalyst for the implementation of martial law in the united states. it will indeed be a time of "tribulation" and distress that has not been equalled.

what does jesus say will happen after this distress? the sun will turn red and the stars will fall from the sky - that is, the events of the sixth seal will transpire, which is the wrath of god. the harvesters (angels) will come and collect the wheat (true believers) and take them into the barn (heaven). only when the elect are safe will god allow the "heavenly bodies to be shaken", where the heavens and earth will be consumed with fire.

we need to keep watch and pray that we may be able to escape all that is about to come upon the whole world, and to stand before the son of man:

"After these things [ the events of the sixth seal, or wrath of god] I looked, and there was a crowd so large that no one was able to count it! They were from every nation, tribe, people, and language. They were standing in front of the throne and the lamb and were wearing white robes, with palm branches in their hands." [rev 7:9]

another point i'd like to bring up is the antichrist. personally i believe that there is a very good possibility i may die for my faith in the very near future. radical islam could be the catalyst. however, i think scripture says that he will not be some ruthless murderer, but rather a complete counterfeit of jesus.

the new agers also seem to add to this belief. their fervent activity at apparently explaining away the rapture of the church should not be ignored. they say that there will be an "evacuation" before a pole shift occurs, where these individuals who do not "fit in with the vibration" will be beamed up into spaceships in the "twinkling of an eye" (yes, they use that term). in reality, god's angels will have taken the church to the celestial abode jesus has been preparing them.

also, those who believe christians will be present during the entire rule of the false messiah need to take something into consideration. do you really think that true christians will just passively let the antichrist go about deceiving your family, friends and loved ones? surely you would become zealous and try to expose his deception to as many people as you could. therefore, because the antichrist would not possibly take this chance, he could very well order these "rebels", these "malcontents" of the universe, to be 'evacuated' by his space brother emissaries for further "enlightenment" and education.

so again, i believe we are soon going to face some difficult and troublesome times, possibly lasting as long as a year or more in length. but then i think we should lift our heads up, because our redemption will be drawing near.

When I read your words, I knew to share this :


This is an excerpt from the message I was given in 2005

Lead Them My Stone & Archer Of Brave Sport . . ., . . . to the glory of the one True God . . .
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...c=19697&hl=

And tell them that they must obey the Law of the Universe
of the guides of Christ to protect the earth and new settlement
and living quarters granted upon the masses
At the c h a n g - l i n g time of Body escape into paradise
and glory to serve the glory of the One True God.

Gideon7620 said, Good analogy. This demonstrates the saints will be here for the abomination that makes desolate and the Great Tibulaton that will follow. They may even be here as I believe for the wrath of God. Imagine being a saint and seeing many killed for Christ, then seeing the end when God starts to play the music back to Satan and pours his wrath on this man of sin, while sheltering his elect with divine diliverences. I believe God will shelter the saints from his wrath as he did the Jews during the Exodus.

Needless to say, this is probably the most important single doctrinal and prophetic issue with Bible believing Christians. We must settle in our hearts what we believe, as it appear we are in the part of Mathew 24 right before the NWO, and the tribulation hour. They are about to tell us peace and safety with some sort of a peace treaty in the middle east. I do not know when, but soon as they are working towards it. When the restrainer is removed, then will the antichrist be revealed and the last week shall takes its course like a timely schedule.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The abomonation that makes desolate has happened, satans rule in the churches today.. there is absolutely no gospel at all in denomiantions and churches of today..If you are blessed you come out now..

Now that is another false dcotrine spread by an old man, brother Camping or whatever his name is. True to the fact, the apostacy of the church has occured and he misconstrues that with the abomination that makes desolate, The two are entirely different as one is Gentile and Christian while the other is Hebrew and of the Synagogue or temple. But we still have not seen the walls built in troublesome time in Jerusalem, nor have we seen the temple built, the New World Order has not arrived yet, nor have the Jews began animal sacrifices again. Finally the abomination that makes desolate has not occured because the antichrist has not sat in the rebuilt temple, as it is not rebuilt yet. We have still yet to enter the 70th week of Daniel. The Levites claims they can have it done in its entirety in about 4 months. So this rebuilding is not a task that will be hard to accomplish. As i recall he, Camping even says the world will end in 2011 or the Millenium starts or something goofy. Time will tell and show his date setting prophecies to be wrong.

The antichrist is an individual, not an apostate Church. We see that clearly in Daniel, Revelation 13, and in many other old and new testament verses. His person shall be reveal as the NWO unfolds and the restrainer is pulled away. The restrainer can not be the Holy Spirit as a whole, btw. The main support for Pretribers is that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit in its entirety, secretly leaving with a secret second coming that will leave the world in doom as the Church is gone. This also can not be true , For we see that many will be saved in the great tribulation. We further know in order for this to occur the Holy Spirit must be present for people to be saved. If as pretribers claim that the restrainer or Holy Spirit in its entirety leaves during a secret, hidden, mysterious, unscriptual second coming than how is it that more people will be saved than ever in human history, during this time of Great Tribulation.

Part of the prophecy of Joel must still be fulfilled, as in Acts Chapter 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:


20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:


21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Though these verses started to be fulfilled in the early church as we see in the book of Acts. The majority of the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. That is pretty much self explanitory. Verse 19 has yet to be seen as we see the wonders in the heavens above, now and in the future. The blood, fire and vapour or pillars as seen elsewhere in scripture are perfect descriptions of neuclear war. The sun and moon has not been affect by the thermo nuclear warfare that will destroy the atmosphere. It has not come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, because men's hearts have not been soften yet by the Holy Spirit and the terrors that shall come quickly to this earth. As we can see the church will undoubtedly be here even after the moon and sun are affected; these affects are seen all over scripture, and is most likely a representation of the after affects of the destruction of Modern Babylone, America through modern Nuclear warfare.