I am not a patriot of any of the countries here but a Christian. I follow Jesus Christ whose Kingdom is not of this world.
I was pretty shocked to see how the US news covered this event so dishonestly and took it upon myself to look into the matter further.

I see Russia being demonized and provoked. Who benefits?
BTW- McCain, Obama ALL of those guys are not being truthful...guess that's why putting our trust in man brings a snare.
I suspect this has something to do with the Neo-cons desire for "perpetual war" with Iran in it's sights.

The Lord is our refuge and he gives nations to "the basest of men" to rule them. Come out from among them and be ye separate...
If this were a "moral country or government- the lives of the S. Ossetians would not have been sacrificed for political and one world gov't aims.


Putin's Winning Hand:
Once the Atlantic Alliance is shattered, America's lifeline to the world is kaput

By Mike Whitney

16/08/08 "ICH" -- - There are no military installations in the city of Tskhinvali. In fact, there are no military targets at all. It is an industrial center consisting of lumber mills, manufacturing plants and residential areas. It is also the home to 30,000 South Ossetians. When Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered the city to be bombed by warplanes and shelled by heavy artillery last Thursday, he knew that he would be killing hundreds of civilians in their homes and neighborhoods. But he ordered the bombing anyway.

There was no "Battle of Tskhinvali"; that's another fiction. A battle implies that there is an opposing force that is resisting or fighting back. That's not the case here. The Georgian army entered the city unopposed; after all, how can unarmed civilians stop armed units. Most of the townspeople had already fled across the border into Russia or hid in their basements while the tanks and armored vehicles rumbled bye firing at anything that moved.

What took place in South Ossetia last Thursday, was not an invasion or a siege; it was a massacre. The people had no way to defend themselves against a fully-equiped modern army. It was a war crime.

In less than 24 hours, the Russian army was deployed to the war zone where it chased the Georgian army away without a fight. Journalist Michael Binyon put it like this, "The attack was short, sharp and deadly---enough to send the Georgians fleeing in humiliating panic." Indeed, the Georgians left in such haste that many of their weapons were left behind. It was a complete rout; another black-eye for the US and Israeli advisers who trained the clatter of thugs they call the Georgian army. Soon vendors on the streets of Tskhinvali will be hawking weapons that were left behind with a mocking sign: "Georgia Army M-16; Never used, dropped once."

By the time the army was driven out, the downtown area was in engulfed in flames and the bodies of those who had been killed by sniper-fire were strewn along the streets and sidewalks. Many of people who stayed behind were simply too old or infirm to leave. Instead, they huddled in their basements waiting for the shelling to stop. It was a bloodbath. The city's only hospital was deliberately targeted and destroyed; another war crime. By day's end, over 2,000 people were killed in an operation that was clearly engineered with the assistance of the Bush White House. Bush regards Saakashvilli as his main client in the region; they are friends. He is America's cat's paw in the Caucasus. Saakashvilli's assignment is to try to get Putin to overreact militarily and demonstrate to European allies that Russia still poses a threat to their national security. Fortunately, many Europeans see through the ruse and know that the trouble originates in Washington.

For the most part, Americans are still in the dark about what really happened last weekend. There's a great video circulating on the Internet by a Russian citizen that has been living in USA for the last 10 years. He sums up the role of the US media with great precision. He says, "The western media--especially CNN--is feeding you complete horseshit. Russia did not invade Georgia first." The youtube can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c26Q-qxDEA

The coverage of the western media has been abysmal. Nearly every article and TV news segment begins with accusations of Russian aggression concealing the fact that the Georgian Army bombarded and invaded the capital of South Ossetia one full day before the first Russian even tank crossed the border. By the time the Russians arrived, the city was already in a shambles and thousands were dead.

These facts are not in dispute by those who followed the developments as they took place. Now the media is revising the facts to manage public perceptions, just as they did with the fictional WMD in Iraq. Many people think that the media learned its lesson after they were exposed for using bogus information in the lead up to the war in Iraq. But that is not true. The corporate media--especially FOX News, CNN and PBS (the smug, liberal-sounding channel)---continue to operate like the propaganda arm of the Pentagon. Its disgraceful.

In a 2006 referendum, 99% of South Ossetians said they supported independence from Georgia. The voter turnout was 95% and the balloting was monitored by 34 international observers from the west. No one has challenged the results. The province has been under the protection of Russian and Georgian peacekeepers since 1992 and has been a de facto independent state ever since. If Putin applied the same standard as Bush did in Kosovo, he would unilaterally declare South Ossetia independent from Georgia and then thumb his nose at the UN. (Sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander) But Putin and newly-elected Russian President Dmitry Medvedev have taken a conciliatory attitude towards the international community and tried to resolve the issue through diplomatic channels. So far, they have conducted themselves with restraint and avoided any confrontation.

Still, Russia's operation in South Ossetia has ignited a firestorm in the US political establishment and Democrats and Republicans alike are demanding that Russia be "taught a lesson". Condoleeza Rice flew to Tbilisi on Friday and ordered Russian combat troops to withdraw from Georgia immediately. Saakashvili topped off Rice's comments by saying that the Russian troops were "cold-blooded killers" and "barbarians". So much for reconciliation.

Saakashvili's hyperbolic rhetoric was followed by a surprise announcement from Poland that they had approved Bush's plans for deploying the Missile Defense Shield in Eastern Europe. The system is supposed to defend Europe from the possibility of attacks from so-called "rogue states" like Iran, but the Kremlin knows that it is intended to neutralize their nuclear arsenal. Political analyst William Engdahl explains the importance of the proposed system in his recent article, "Missile Defense: Washington and Poland just moved the World closer to War":


"The signing now insures an escalation of tensions between Russia and NATO and a new Cold War arms race in full force. It is important for readers to understand...the ability of one of two opposing sides to put anti-missile missiles to within 90 miles of the territory of the other in even a primitive first-generation anti-missile missile array gives that side virtual victory in a nuclear balance of power and forces the other to consider unconditional surrender or to pre-emptively react by launching its nuclear strike before 2012."

The new "shield" will be integrated into the larger US nuclear weapons system placing the world's most lethal weapons just a few hundred miles from Russia's capital. It is a clear threat to Russia's national security and it must be opposed at all cost. It is no different than nuclear weapons in Cuba. The timing of the announcement is particularly troubling as it only adds to the tensions between the two superpowers.


President Medvedev made this statement after hearing of Poland's decision: "This decision clearly demonstrates everything we have said recently. The deployment of new anti-missile forces in Europe is aimed at the Russian Federation."

It was President Ronald Reagan, the darling of the neoconservatives, who decided to remove short-range nuclear weapons from the European theater. Now, ironically, it is his ideological heir, George W. Bush, who is on track to restart the Cold War by putting a high-tech nuclear system on Russia's perimeter. The younger Bush has already broken his father's commitment to Mikail Gorbachev to never expand NATO beyond Germany. Presently, Bush is pushing to gain NATO membership for two former-Soviet states; Ukraine and Georgia. If they are approved, then any future dispute with Russia will pit the United States and Europe against Moscow. It's no wonder Putin is trying to derail the process.

The Bush administration has been planning for a confrontation with Russia for more than a year. In fact, Raw Story reported on operations that were conducted by the military on July 14, 2008 which were probably a dress rehearsal for the current conflict. According to Raw Story:


"US troops on Monday (July 14) began military exercises near the Russian border in ex-Soviet Ukraine and were poised to launch them in Georgia, amid tense relations between Moscow and Washington. A ceremony inaugurating the Sea Breeze-2008 NATO exercise was held off Ukraine's Black Sea coast against anti-NATO protests and a hostile reaction from officials in Russia. Sea Breeze-2008...includes forces from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Britain, Canada, Denmark, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Latvia, Macedonia and Turkey...'The US-Georgia joint exercises will be held at the Vaziani military base' less than 100 kilometers (60 miles) from the Russian border with a total of 1,650 servicemen taking part."

So, it appears the Bush administration, working in conjunction with the Pentagon, did have contingency plans for dealing with a flare-up with Georgia. The real question is whether or not they planned to initiate those hostilities to advance their own regional agenda? No one knows for sure.

Now that Georgia's American-trained army has been humiliated in front of the world, Bush is trying desperately to save face by demanding that Russia allow the US Air force to deliver humanitarian aid via C-17 military aircraft to the tens of thousands of Georgians who were displaced in the fighting. It is worth noting that, as yet, Bush has never delivered as much as a bag of rice to the 2 million Iraqi refugees living in Jordan and Syria due to his war in Iraq. Bush's magnanimity is not only suspect, it also creates real problems for Putin who will have to decide whether the offer is sincere or just a ploy to open up the ports and airfields so that more weaponry and ordnance can be delivered. As Barry Grey suggests in his article "Bush Dispatches US Military forces to Georgia" the humanitarian operation could be a scam:

"This is a formula for an injection of US military and naval forces into Georgia of indeterminate scope and duration. It will certainly involve the presence of hundreds if not thousands of uniformed US military personnel on the ground, and a substantial number of warships in the region. The US is introducing this military force into a situation that remains highly unstable and combustible, raising the possibility of a direct military clash between the United States and Russia."

Grey is right, but what choice does Putin have? His task is to avoid a military confrontation with the United States while demonstrating to his Europeon partners that their future lies with Russia not America. That's the real goal. To achieve that, he needs to expose Bush as reckless, petulant, and incapable of being a responsible steward of the global system. Maybe Putin will have to back-down at some point and swallow his pride; it makes no difference. What matters, is the endgame; showing that Russia is strong and dependable and will provide its European allies with oil and natural gas in a businesslike manner. That's the winning hand. Meanwhile, the United States will be forced to take a long-overdue look in the mirror and revisit its strategy for perennial war. Unfortunately, once the Atlantic Alliance is shattered; America's lifeline to the world is kaput.

Click on "comments" below to read or post commentI

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=45;

daniel 4;17 amplified bible
17This sentence is by the decree of the [heavenly] watchers and the decision is by the word of the holy ones, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High [God] rules the kingdom of mankind and gives it to whomever He will and sets over it the humblest and lowliest of men.(


KJV
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

I like the amplified bible...........it's easier to understand

Hi April...

You see Russia being demonized?

What does the scripture say about Russia?

They will be in league with the Anti-christ.
They also are on the side of Iran who is has made it known that they are against Israel.

If nations are against Israel....they are against God.

So I think its pretty clear that Russia is not being demonized by us naughty Americans.
They are on the wrong side. Period. And basically they are screwed when the real fighting starts.

It is also prophesied that God will intervene and come to the defense of Israel.

hi blessedinva...

I agree that US media are exceptionally biased. Unfortunately, I cannot access youtube (I'm on dialup). May I ask the source of your article?

There are always at the minimum...two sides to every story.

And Chloe'...
as far as Israel is concerned...I will not blindly believe that God is pleased with Israel today. The promise given to Abraham is a conditional promise...and requires obedience to God; including submitting to the gospel message...which Israel is a secular nation and the majority do not accept Christ as their savior.
All nations are shut up under disobedience and are being ruled over by the evil one...including Israel.

I've witnessed many attrocities committed by modern Israel....against Palestinians as well as those in Lebanon. (I do not dismiss attrocities from these sides either....but the point needs to be made...these two conflicts between palestinians and Lebanon, these two have suffered enormous amounts of casualties as well as off the scale destruction........surely God has compassion for ALL those who have suffered). I've also witnessed extremely biased media accounts concerning Palestinians and the Lebanon war....we should be careful to investigate other sides of the story before defending any given side's actions.

God bless!
Kim

I'm beginning to believe that the actions of the Georgian government to militarily attack the armless citizens of S. Ossetia was a prodding by the U.S. and Israeli governments to control the direction of the religious visions of the people; to make a final battle take place. It is reported that the majority of the population of S. and N. Ossetia is Iranian and to keep up the pressure on Ahmadinejad to cease his nuclear ambitions, what better way than hit his citizens elsewhere? Isn't that what president Bush is concerned about? All of the American citizens abroad and their interests?

But, it is less of a war crime and harder to prosecute than a direct attack on Iran.

Kim....

With all due respect to you....read what the Bible says about this. You will find the side that God takes. He promises to protect them and it is prophesied that He will come to the defense of Israel.

And as far as the conflict with Palestine and Lebanon is concerned....please.....

Israel has been on defensive. The Palestinians i.e..Hamas and Lebanon i.e... Hizballah are the ones that started this and continue to do so even with the concessions that Israel keeps making to try and have peace.

These nations break their promises all the time and don't control these terrorist groups which are out of control.

Thank you April, this is a very good post .

I was not aware that the south Ossetians were anti-Israeli terrorists. This is a shocking revelation to say the least.

<><

John

John....I know my response was off topic...but I was responding to something that Kim said about Israel. You know how I feel about this.

I think the scriptures are clear on this matter. I'd rather be on the side that I think God is on.

Hi Chloe'...
Just FYI; I have thoroughly studied the scriptures and I am well aware of the promises God gave to Abraham...however; those promises are/were conditional. The bible is replete with evidence which suggests that God was not always with Israel (ie-in support of); especially during their times of apostacy....which they are currently in apostacy.

This may sound inflammatory; but I feel it must be said...in order for a person to go along with the status-quo blind support of Israel, including justifying their actions as righteous; which lends credence to the idea that God is supporting their actions is to call Jesus a liar. Jesus said speaking of national Israel that their house was left...desolate. Speaking to national Israel, our Lord also said (in other words) that they were rejecting Him, but would receive another. This is not dismissing what our Lord can do for national Israel in the future...but in the meantime we should bear witness to the truth, regardless of how against the grain that may be.

As christians we are doing Israel no good service by supporting them in their apostacy. Nor are we doing the US any service by supporting their apostacy either. We are to stand as lights, exposing the darkness....rather than supporting it.

US media has fully covered the plight of Israeli's...I don't think there is a single person who is not aware of the suicide bombings as well as Israel's side of the story.

As far as Palestinians are concerned, yes...they have committed attrocities which I admitted earlier...but so has Israel. In fact, if you weigh the amount of suffering between both sides (by carefully examining more than one source of evidence); you can clearly see that the Palestinians have suffered much greater casualties as well as great oppressions. I will give you one example of brutality...Israel used gas bombs on innocent Palestinian civilians which caused them to suffer severe pain as well as psychosis. One example of severe oppression is that not only does Israel demolish by bulldozer people's homes, they also take those bulldozers and knock down fruit bearing trees. This is condemned in the word of God itself...concerning those who go to war; they should never take away a person's food source...that is evil.

Is God supporting this? What about Lebanon? I was horrified when I watched outside media sources which showed the plight of the Lebanese people. I will never accept Israel's justifying excuses that Hezbollah were hiding behind their citizen's (which made the citizen's equal targets in Israel's eyes)!
What Israel did to Lebanon is utter destruction and devastation of the scale which resembled massive earthquakes that destroyed more cities than one. It looked like the apocolypse! I watched many nights of news coverage from BOTH sides and saw the dead infants and children whose homes had pancaked right on top of them. This was completely wrong and evil.

I desire to be on God's side too...and I consider doing unto others as we would have them do unto us to be the moral standard/side God is on.

How can any christian view these images and not have compassion for the other side as well I will never know. I'm also very tired of seeing the race card being casually displayed in offense against those who hold to a different opinion. I am in no way anti-semitic, but believe that the truth should be handled with integrity for all peoples. God has a BIG soft spot when it comes to the poor, disenfranchised and oppressed people of the entire earth. His justified anger against needless oppression is repeatedly revealed throughout the word of God.

Once again, I will state this for the record...I am very aware of Israel's position as well as the losses they have incurred....US media does a splendid job in sharing Israel's view on things.

State sponsored "terrorism" is just as evil if not moreso than "terrorism" sponsored by smaller groups. Might does not make right, nor does size or past historical actions. We have the "now" in our sights and should judge it accordingly.

God bless you,
Kim

Must we villify others in the off chance they may not like us or what we think? Are we not contributing to the problem with such an approach?

<><

John

Hi again Kim....

I know that it sounds like I am so one sided in this. I'm not. I don't want for innocent lives in Palestine or Lebanon to be hurt. And I know that Israeli Government is not spotless. An Orthodox (Jew) friend of mine is harder on his judgment of them than I am even.

But I have also looked into this quite a bit. And I have a different view.

Our media is most certainly not pro Israel. They are a liberal media and they don't usually give fair and balanced journalism. Very sad.

I'm looking for something in particular that was sent to me via e-mail by a friend. I shared it with one of my Professors once. It gives a list of all the attacks on Israel and then the retalitory attacks on their neighbors.

This is shocking in the way it shows just how much more the tiny nation of Israel has to endure with these attacks.

By far...Israel is attacked much more than is reported. But the media is very good about making sure that every retalitory attack by Israel is in the news.

I hope I find it.

But until then...here is something else I found. Pretty interesting to look at the numbers. And most of all sad when you realize the reason why this is.

This is not showing up in the proper graph format..so I'll put it in columns.

The Jewish Population Of The World !!
(2005)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jewish Population By Region
Top 50 Countries by Population
Country Population (2005E) % Jewish Estimated Jews

Country ...............................Population (2005E) .............................% Jewish...........................Estimated Jews

Afghanistan ................................. 29 928 987 .......................................0.000003307%..........................1
Algeria ......................................... 32,531,853 ........................................0.0003% ...............................100
Argentina ......................................39,537,943 .........................................1% .......................................395,379
Armenia ........................................2,982,904 ..........................................0.025% ..................................750
Australia ........................................20,090,437 .........................................0.45% ....................................90,406
Austria .........................................8,184,691 ............................................0.1% ....................................8,184
Azerbaijan .....................................7,911,974 ............................................0.1% ....................................7,911
Belarus ..........................................10,300,483 ........................................0.7% .......................................72,103
Belgium .........................................10,364,388 .........................................0.5% ......................................51,821
Bolivia ...........................................8,857,870 ..........................................0.006% ....................................500
Bosnia and Herzegovina ..................4,025,476 ..........................................0.025% .....................................1,006
Botswana .......................................1,640,115 ..........................................0.006% ......................................100
Brazil .............................................186,112,794 .......................................0.051% ....................................95,125
Bulgaria .........................................7,450,349 ..........................................0.031% .....................................2,300
Canada .........................................32,805,041 ..........................................1.2% ......................................393,660
Chile ............................................15,980,912 .........................................0.131% ....................................20,900
China ..........................................1,306,313,812 ....................................0.00008% ...................................1,000
Colombia .....................................42,954,279 .........................................0.008% ........................................3,436
Congo (Kinshasa) ..........................60,085,004 .........................................0.0002% .....................................120
Costa Rica ....................................4,016,173 ..........................................0.06% ........................................2,409
Croatia ...........................................4,495,904 ........................................0.04% ........................................1,798
Cuba ............................................11,346,670 .........................................0.013% .......................................1,500
Czech Republic ...............................10,241,138 ........................................0.03% ........................................3,072
Denmark ........................................5,432,335 .........................................0.13% ........................................7,062
Dominican Republic .........................8,950,034 .........................................0.001% .......................................100
Ecuador ........................................13,363,593 .........................................0.007% .......................................935
Egypt ...........................................77,505,756 .........................................0.0001% .......................................100
El Salvador ....................................6,704,932 ...........................................0.001% ........................................100
Estonia .........................................1,332,893 ...........................................0.136% .........................................1,818
Ethiopia ......................................73,053,286 ...........................................0.027% .......................................20,000
Finland .........................................5,223,442 ............................................0.021% .......................................1,110
France .........................................60,656,178 .............................................1% ...........................................606,561
Georgia ......................................4,677,401 ..............................................0.17% .........................................7,951
Germany .....................................82,431,390 .............................................0.13% ........................................107,160
Greece .......................................10,668,354 .............................................0.05% ..........................................5,334
Guatemala ..................................14,655,189 ............................................0.008% .........................................1,172
Hungary ......................................10,006,835 .............................................0.6% ............................................60,041
India ........................................1,080,264,388 .........................................0.0005% .........................................5,401
Iran ..........................................68,017,860 .............................................0.03% ............................................20,405
Iraq ...........................................26,074,906 .............................................0.0004% ........................................100
Ireland ......................................4,015,676 .................................................0.03% ..........................................1,204
Israel .........................................6,276,883 .................................................80% ...........................................5,021,506
Italy .........................................58,103,033 ...............................................0.052% ........................................30,213
Jamaica ......................................2,731,832 ................................................0.011% ...........................................300
Japan ........................................127,417,244 ............................................0.0008% ..........................................1,002
Kazakhstan .................................15,185,844 ..............................................0.027% ..........................................4,100
Kenya ........................................33,829,590 ...............................................0.001% ...........................................400
Korea, South ..............................48,422,644 ...............................................0.0002% ...........................................100
Kyrgyzstan ..................................5,146,281 ................................................0.018% ............................................926
Latvia ........................................2,290,237 .................................................0.397% ...........................................9,092
Lebanon .......................................3,826,018 ................................................0.003% ............................................100
Lithuania ...................................3,596,617 ..................................................0.1% ................................................3,596
Luxembourg ................................468,571 ...................................................0.14% ...............................................655
Macedonia .................................2,045,262 ..................................................0.005% ............................................100
Mexico .....................................106,202,903 ...............................................0.05% .............................................53,101
Moldova .....................................4,455,421 ................................................0.7% ................................................31,187
Morocco .....................................32,725,847 ................................................0.016% ............................................5,236
Namibia ....................................2,030,692 .................................................0.006% ...............................................115
The Netherlands .........................16,407,491 ................................................0.2% ................................................32,814
New Zealand ..............................4,035,461 .................................................0.135% ..............................................5,447
Nigeria ......................................128,771,988 .............................................0.00008% ............................................100
Norway .....................................4,593,041 .................................................0.027% ..............................................1,240
Panama ....................................3,039,150 ..................................................0.33% ..............................................10,029
Paraguay ..................................6,347,884 .................................................0.016% ..............................................1,015
Peru .........................................27,925,628 ................................................0.01% ................................................2,792
Philippines ..................................87,857,473 ..............................................0.0001% .............................................100
Poland .....................................38,635,144 ................................................0.065% ................................................24,999
Portugal ....................................10,566,212 ................................................0.007% ..................................................739
Puerto Rico ................................3,916,632 ..................................................0.038% ................................................1,488
Romania ...................................22,329,977 ..................................................0.027% ..............................................6,029
Russia .....................................143,420,309 ................................................0.5% ..................................................717,101
Serbia and Montenegro ..............10,829,175 .................................................0.016% ................................................1,732
Singapore .................................4,425,720 ....................................................0.007% .................................................300
Slovakia ...................................5,431,363 ...................................................0.056% .................................................3,041
Slovenia ...................................2,011,070 ..................................................0.005% .................................................100
South Africa ..............................44,344,136 .................................................0.2% ...................................................88,688
Spain .......................................40,341,462 ..................................................0.12% ................................................48,409
Suriname .................................438,144 .....................................................0.046% ..................................................200
Sweden .....................................9,001,774 ...................................................0.2% .....................................................18,003
Switzerland ...............................7,489,370 ....................................................0.2% ....................................................14,978
Syria ........................................18,448,752 ................................................0.0005% ...................................................100
Tajikistan ...................................7,163,506 ..................................................0.001% ..................................................100
Thailand ....................................65,444,371 ................................................0.0003% ...................................................199
Trinidad and Tobago ...................1,088,644 ...................................................0.1% ....................................................1,088
Tunisia ......................................10,074,951 .................................................0.018% ..................................................1,813
Turkey ....................................69,660,559 .................................................0.025% ..................................................17,415
Turkmenistan ............................4,952,081 ...................................................0.01% ...................................................495
Ukraine ...................................47,425,336 ...................................................0.3% .....................................................142,276
United Kingdom .........................60,441,457 .................................................0.5% .......................................................302,207
United States .............................295,734,134 ...............................................2% .........................................................5,914,682
Uruguay ..................................3,415,920 ...................................................0.9% ......................................................30,743
Uzbekistan ................................26,851,195 ................................................0.065% ....................................................17,453
Venezuela .................................25,375,281 .................................................0.1% .......................................................25,375
Yemen .....................................20,727,063 .................................................0.001% ....................................................200
Zimbabwe ..................................12,746,990 ...............................................0.006% .....................................................764

Total Population .......................6,430,856,221 ...............................................0.227% ...............................................14,596,017

Kim....

I will have to look for that article tomarrow.

I believe that those conditions were not forever. I believe that God is a God that keeps his promises. And when He said that He would be there to protect Israel...He ment it. Notice the second half of this article that explains a time frame with scriptures that explains that this conditional response is not permanent.

Are God's Promises

All Conditional?

Are all of God's promises conditional? Are they all carried out only on the basis that the promised recipients live up to some prescribed level of behavior?

There are many Christians who sincerely believe this very thing. Is it possible that some of the promises of God are strongly conditional while other of His promises are just as strongly irrevocable?

Lev. 26:3,4 -- If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees of the field their fruit...

Vs. 6 -- I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid.

Vs. 12 -- I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.

Vss. 14-16 -- But if you do not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life...

Vs. 20 -- Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor the trees of the land yield their fruit.

Vs. 25 -- And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant.

No question about it, the promises and threatenings connected with the Sinaitic Covenant were dependent on the Israelites keeping their promise of obedience. Notice again:

Jer. 7:22-24 -- For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: "Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that all may go well with you."

But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclination of their evil hearts.

Once again, the strongest possible linkage of obedience to the covenant is required in order to receive its promises.

Jer. 11:3-5 -- Tell them that this is what the Lord, the God of Israel says: "Cursed is the man who does not obey the terms of this covenant -- the terms I commanded your forefathers when I brought them out of Egypt...
I said, "Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Then I will fulfill the oath I swore to your forefathers to give them a land flowing with milk and honey -- that you possess today.

Vs. 7 -- I warned them again and again saying, "Obey me."

Vs. 8 -- But they did not listen or pay attention; instead they followed the stubbornness of their evil hearts.
So I brought on them all the curses of the Covenant I had commanded them to follow, but they did not keep.

I believe that we have adequate proof from the preceding that the promises and curses pertaining to the Sinaitic Covenant was on the basis of obedience or disobedience, on the part of the Israelites, to that Covenant.


New Covenant


Now I want to go to the New Covenant promises and the basis of their being fulfilled.

Is it in the same language as in the Old Covenant? All the promises of restoration of Israel in the Holy Land are a part of these promises. Are they all done away with due to the conduct of the Israelites?

The Covenant God made with Abraham reveals promises of the irrevocable type. The fulfillment of these promises is a part of the New Covenant. (Eze. 37:27 -- "My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people.")

Gen. 22:15-18 -- The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, "I swear by myself," declares the Lord, "that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.

Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring (seed) all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

The promise is not based on the future behavior of the descendants of Abraham. It is built on God's word that He will do what He said He would do. This promise was based on what Abraham had already done -- not withheld his only son as a sacrifice, as God had ordered.

Later we have God passing this promise on to Abraham's grandson (Jacob) and his descendants.

Gen. 28:13-15 -- "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac.

I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south.

All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."

"I swear by myself" declares the Lord. Is there any greater guarantee in the universe than this, that this Covenant will be carried out? "I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you." This is the highest level that an unconditional, irrevocable promise can be placed.

Paul states that the Covenant given at Sinai does not invalidate the promise previously made to Abraham. And that it still awaits fulfillment.

Gal. 3:15-18 -- The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, ‘and to seeds,’ meaning many people, but ‘and to your seed’ meaning one person, who is Christ.

What I mean is this: The Law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the Covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise...

Vs. 22 -- But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe...

Vss. 26-29 -- You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now we can see that everyone has the opportunity of being a part of these wonderful promises made to Abraham, if we belong to Christ. Isaiah, speaking by prophetic inspiration, tells us how these promises will be implemented.

Isa. 54:2 -- Enlarge the place of your tent, stretch your tent curtains wide, do not hold back; lengthen your cords, strengthen your stakes.

Vs. 3 -- For you will spread out to the right and to the left; your descendants will dispossess nations and settle in their desolate cities...

Vs. 5 -- For your Maker is your husband—the Lord Almighty is his name -- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth.

This is speaking of the time after the Second Coming when Christ will be dwelling and reigning in Jerusalem. Isaiah 54 is all about "The Future Glory of Zion." Jeremiah describes the same time and circumstances:

Jer. 23:3-6 -- I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.

I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing, declares the Lord.

The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness.

I would like to take some excerpts from Psalm 69. This is a prayer Christ prayed while on the Cross as shown in vision to David.

Ps. 69:3,4 -- I am worn out calling for help; my throat is parched. My eyes fail, looking for My God. Those who hate me without reason out-number the hairs of my head; Many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me...

Vss. 7,8 -- For I endure scorn for your sake, and shame covers my face (he is stripped and naked on the cross). I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons.

Vss. 20,21 -- Scorn has broken my heart and has left me helpless; I looked for sympathy, but there was none, for comforters, but I found none. They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

Vs. 23 -- May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever...

Vss. 27,28 -- Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation. May they be blotted out of the book of life...

Vss. 34,35 -- Let heaven and earth praise him, the seas and all that move in them, for God will save Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah. Then people will settle there and possess it.

Vs. 36 -- The children of his servants will inherit it, and those who love his name will dwell there."

At the close of this prayer, while going through un-speakable pain and torture and a feeling of separation from His Father, one would expect Him to say (if He mentioned it at all) -- forget about all those promises I made about restoration of Israel. Look at His actual response and remember -- this is in spite of His crucifixion (Verses 34-36).

Ps. 69:23 -- He states "May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see."

Because of their cruel and unjust treatment of Christ, He abandoned them after having them hardened in their spirit of rejection. This abandonment was not to be permanent, however. Paul gives us insight as to its duration:

Rom. 11:25-27 -- I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

And so all Israel will be saved as it is written: The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. "This is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Paul quotes from Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9.)

Because of their rejection and crucifixion of Christ, the Israelites were blinded and hardened in that state of rebellion to God, and God abandoned them. We have no basis to conclude that this rejection (by God) is permanent -- if we study the Scriptures regarding this rejection of the Israelites.

This abandoning of the Israelites to their hardened hearts is to last until the last Gentile is called in. Then this hardening will be removed and the survivors that remain in Jerusalem at that time will all be saved. That time being the Second Coming.

Let us look at another Old Testament source, speaking of this same problem. Micah, a contemporary of Isaiah, speaks of this same problem of Israel being abandoned; the why and the how long.

Micah 5:1 -- Marshall your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod.

(See Matt. 27:28-30 -- They stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him, and then wove a crown of thorns and set it on His head.

They put a staff in His right hand and knelt in front of Him and mocked Him, "Hail, King of the Jews!" they said.

Then they spit on Him, and took the staff and struck Him on the head again and again.)

Micah 5:2 -- But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are of old, from ancient times. (This is to identify which of Israel's rulers verse one is speaking of.)

Vs. 3 -- Therefore Israel will be abandoned (Therefore -- for this reason -- for the unspeakable crime of the crucifixion) until the time when she who is in labor gives birth and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites."

Therefore Israel will be abandoned (because of the crucifixion) until the time when she who is in labor gives birth and the rest of his brothers returns to join the Israelites. This clearly tells us that after this "until" they will no longer be abandoned.

We know, from what Paul told us in Romans 11:25, that this spiritual hardening of the Israelites in a state of rejection of Christ, is to last until the last Gentile is called in. This occurs just before Christ's Second Coming.

How does this fit with the time when she who is in labor gives birth and the rest of her brothers return to join the Israelites? This has to be speaking of Gentile believers who belong to Christ -- from every nation, kindred, and tongue and people. They will be gathered together and join the Israelites immediately following the Second Coming. Remember that all these Gentile believers belong to Christ, therefore "they are of Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29).

I believe this requires careful consideration as to who comprise the group referred to as "her brothers" who join the Israelites. Isaiah gives us a beautiful picture of this group of survivors in Jerusalem who have just undergone 3-l/2 years of trampling by the Gentiles and are then set free at Christ's Second Coming.

Isa. 4:2-5 -- In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem.

The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

Then the Lord will create over all of Mt. Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow of flaming fire by night; over all the glory will be a canopy. It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.

Hi Chloe',
I've also tried to keep an open mind to Israeli conflicts...and as far as the media is concerned, I have to agree to disagree with you.
What I find is that there is much left to be said concerning these conflicts. The media always portrays them as Israel is justified in retaliation...ie-Israel is the one who gets attacked 1st in the media's eyes; then they retaliate. When does it ever boil down to the fact that BOTH sides feel as though they are being attacked?

Have you studied the perspective of the Palestinians concerning the "peace" treaties? Are you aware of the land boundaries proposed by Israel, and the subsequent hardships the Palestinians have to endure due to those peace treaty boundaries? It is not Israel suffering through blockades which strip a person of their much needed food supplies as well as medical attention. There is much suffering being endured by the Palestinians which NEVER gets mentioned in mainstream media...and the peace treaty itself is never examined openly...with the "sincere" pro's and con's being discussed.

There is way too much bias going on within the church as well...because these issues are never being "fairly" presented; with both sides having equal consideration being offered. I must consider that God is just as concerned about the Palestinians as He is with Israeli's. The church has a great influence upon US society. John Hagee has an organization which makes frequent trips to lobby for pro-Israel policies. I do not see this same degree of support going on for Palestinians...where is the concern for those who are needlessly suffering due to Israel's hard-handed tactics? Don't the Palestinian people deserve a place to live as well? Isn't God large enough to make room for more than one ethnicity within a region? And concerning the "size" of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip...they are far less than Israel in mass and quantity.

God bless you,
Kim

I don't want to dismiss your posting concerning the promises of God...but here is my concern. I believe those promises
must be taken in context. I ask you to consider...was Jeremiah for or against God when he warned the nation of Israel that
they were going to be judged soon due to their many un-repentant sins?... that judgment incurred the wrath of Babylon; which
was God's will to happen. Was God protecting Israel when Babylon invaded Israel?

And last but not least, was Jeremiah blessing or cursing Israel when he prophesied of Babylon's coming destruction against
Israel?

I'm not asking these questions fascetiously or condescendingly...but am merely pointing to an observation that
we cannot view those promises as a "cut and dry" application without considering God's will in each given circumstance.
What if God decides that Israel in their current, un-repentant state deserves judgment; but the church at large believes that
the instrument God uses is in the wrong or is evil for bringing about the judgment of God? Do you see what I'm saying?
The church just as easily could be wrong in their assessment of Israel's conflicts, and I dare say that the church (at large) is already wrong...because they are blindly parroting the promises of God, WITHOUT making reference to God's sovereign ability
to judge outside of narrow parameters which the church deems that God must fit into (ie- those promises God has already
demonstrated He is willing to work outside those parameters when He righteously judged Israel by bringing Babylon as His instrument of
destruction).

Just because God made a promise to national Israel, does not mean that God will always be pleased with their actions...nor does
it mean that God will always defend Israel. There are plenty of biblical examples which do prove my point. Also, scripture reveals to us that every nation is shut up under disobedience in God's eyes until He returns. That includes the US as well as Israel and every other country too.

God bless you,
Kim

I almost passed by that. God is no respecter of persons, right?

Yes, I believe God considers all people and weighs the heart and actions of all....and deals fairly with all.

It's amazing to me how people are so willing to be deceived...even some Christians. I guess all that poison that they have been putting in our food is really having the desired effect on some of us. The Bush administration has lied so much about so many things and the corporate media is its willing servants in propagating there propaganda. So now they are at it again, they are lying to us by telling the world that Russia is the aggressor. I wonder when will people wake up?

So you believe that anyone who is against the state of Israel is against God, yet it is the same people (the Jews as a whole) who rejected Jesus even to this day. I am sorry but your argument does not make sense. Did not Jesus say that because they reject Him the kingdom of God is taken away from them and given to another nation (the Gentile) that would produce fruit? Why do some of us act as if the State of Israel is a Godly nation? Do they not commit atrocities as much as any other Country? Does God turn a blind eye towards the State of Israel when it commits injustice?

All I can say is, well said. I am happy to see that there are a few fair minded Christians that do not have a knee jerk blind support for the State of Israel and is willing to see things from God eyes.

This is a key geographic region and a key pivotal point in politics as usual

but not as usual...that's why so heated.

I raised the question the very first time Benny posted the string about this action.."Does Ossetia have the right to be and sovereign independent entity just like Georgia?" My question went unanswered. It's easy to see there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen..

This action was carefully disguised by the Olympics..and the conventions...but it was also carefully timed and is connected to all the other carefully timed "events" taking place. We are living in scary world where men wield a powerful sword. "The plans of men's hearts are many but God's purpose will prevail." Because the sword of his word will prevail..