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Could it be possible that WWIII is forthcoming?


In the Bible when is the Gog and Magog war suppose to occur (as in timing before what/after what)? Is it after this war when the AntiChrist is to come on the scene and the peace treaty is made?

What reason would Russia have to "try to" attack Israel, besides Iran.




I am interested on your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

I came across this (copied below):

Is the Georgia invasion, Russia beginning it's march South to attack Israel?

As you will probably know by now, Russia has invaded Georgia... Observers of Biblical prophecies such as Ezekiel 38 and 39 will note that directly or effectively controlling Georgia would be key when Moscow one day begins moving Russian military forces through Turkey and into Lebanon, Syria and eventually against Israel.

From a logistical stand point Georgia is in the way of flow of troops and supply movement to the Middle East. With Georgia's sentiment to join the EU and allow the U.S. to build a missile defense system on its territory, Russia has no alternative in it personal goals than to eliminate this block of its military transportation line.

I am not implying that Russia will attack Turkey, Syria or Lebanon, but will travel through those countries on the way to attack Israel...

Why would Russia want to attack Israel? Well the fact that Russia has major Energy Interests in Iran is a key reason. You see Israel is threatening to attack Iran over it's alleged Nuclear Weapons Program.

It looks to me that World War 3 got underway big time on 08/08/08.

Another article I came across (posted below):



A Middle East expert and best-selling author says the new military alliance between Russia and Iran could be the sign that an ancient Old Testament prophecy may be fulfilled in the current generation's lifetime.

Joel Rosenberg, a Messianic Jew and Mideast scholar, recently released a book called Epicenter: Why the Current Rumblings in the Middle East Will Change Your Future (Tyndale House). He believes the recent arms pact between Tehran and Moscow is a dangerous development, with Russia clearly joining Iran in the "axis of evil."

Rosenberg believes this new military alliance may have biblical implications. "The ancient Hebrew prophet Ezekiel, writing 2,500 years ago, described an alliance between Russia, Iran, and a group of other Middle Eastern countries that would encircle Israel in the last days and try to destroy her," he notes.

"Now the strange thing about that prophecy," the author points out, "is that there has never been a Russian-Iranian military alliance since the prophecy was written, until now." However, he is quick to add, "Now, does that mean that the prophecy's imminent, in terms of coming true? I would be hesitant to draw that conclusion yet."

But, even though he is not prepared to state that what Ezekiel 38 and 39 foretold is on the verge of fulfillment, Rosenberg says, "I've got to tell you, it's certainly worth noting, because this is a relationship that has never existed." Never, in the 25 centuries since the ancient prophecy was written, has a military alliance existed between Russia and Iran.

"Now it does," the Middle East expert says, "and you have to start to wonder, 'My goodness, is it possible for this major cataclysmic Bible prophecy to literally come true in our lifetime?' It's a question I explore in Epicenter."

Rosenberg says it is quite possible that the battle predicted in Ezekiel could happen before the Rapture -- the time when, according to some interpretations of Bible end-times prophecy, born-again believers will be taken from the Earth into Heaven. If the prophesied battle does precede the Rapture, the author notes, then Christians would still be on the Earth to see it.

Fere,

I would say no. Russia is not named in the visions of the Bible prophets and in fact will be a prey of the little horn, the beast of Revelation, who will hold a Middle Eastern position at the time of the end. This king is Satan's minic and he will appear in the northern Middle East .... not the far north outside of the Middle East where the Russians inhabit. If you want more detail related to where the "Land" of Magog was located after the flood, and still is, I can give it to you.

Russia doesn't believe in suicide, which is what attacking Israel is for any nation to try. It would be very unexpediant to attack Israel right now for Russia. Bantering against Israel is politically expediant for them right now. They want to buddy up with Iran in case Iran gains dominance over more Muslim countries with oil. Iran is friends with China and enemies of the Sunni militants. Russia finds common ground with Iran in these areas. Russia needs friends like that, they think.

I don't see Russia specifically prophecied about either. If they are involved with the anti-Christ, it is not abundantly clear how. Russia being "prey for the little horn" could be true.

I don't agree with the rapture theory [bolded above). We will all be here during the tribulation of Satan...as written, however this is an interesting post. Russia is associated with the bear as America is with the eagle, China is with the dragon and Satan. Christ is the Lion of Judah but there is a fake lion too....Satan, who will pretend to be the true Lion:

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The leopard of Daniel 7:6 is this same leopard. The leopard, I believe, are Kenites...sons of Cain:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So the leopard, Kenites, are like the beast and they go forward by the power of Russia, the bear (his feet as the feet of a bear) and his mouth (as mouth of a lion) sounds like God's Word, from the tribe of Judah but it is twisted because it is from the fake and the dragon, China, gives power to Russia. All are under the leadership of Satan...the "great red dragon."[Rev.12:3]


Interestingly....the present ruler of Russia is - Medvedev. And, his name means.....bear!

The 11th chapter of Daniel has most of the details covering the little horn's actions in the Middle East and outside of it. I would say that the Chinese and the Russians are noted as the far eastern and far northern targets that he will destroy with great furry [11:44]. The focus of the vision is Middle Eastern as are all of the visions of the Bible prophets for the time of the end.

Daniel
11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and Put and Cush [Middle Eastern branches] shall be at his steps.

11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Ok, good points.

How about this scenario....Israel attacking Iran and Russia then getting involved with Israel. What do you think about this one? We know that Russia has been irritated by actions of Israel with Iran. Would this be enough to prompt Russia? (Personally, I think so). Russia is greedy and on a power trip. They are only trying to show their "newly re-gained" power, trying to establish their strength to the world. Threating Poland too? Georgia? To me, it sounds like Russia is looking for conflict and they are waiting for any opportunity to start one. Back in the 90's Russia was not on such a stable ground, they were not doing so good then. Today, different story. Now (I believe) France is telling Russia that there will be great consequences for their recent actions.

I also believe that sooner or later (within a year) Israel WILL attack Iran to try to hinder Iran's nuclear program. Before Summer 2009. I see it even before January 2009, before the US switches Presidents.
We'll see what happens on that one. . .

Fere,

Anything is possible, but there is nothing in visionary prophecy conveying that Israel will attack Iran at the time of the end. Iran [Persia] will be in league with the little horn as will several other Middle Eastern countries. These will attack and invade Israel, and will succeed in occupying the nation for 42 months [last half of Daniel's 70th week decreed]. The littel horn will emerge out of the northern Middle East and will most likely be an Islamic if we are close to the time of the end. The Russians currently feel threatened by the enclosure of the west and are reacting to this to some degree. Keep in mind that the little horn will be worshiped as a god by his followers. The adherents of Islam would never worship a Russian indo-European as a god. Russian communism and Islam are like oil and water .... they do not mix. If the Russians stay in Georgia and attempt to add it back to the Russian camp, the Islamics of Georgia will most likely defeat them just like in Afghanistan.

I also came across this and just posted the entire article. I did not realize that Davit Kezerashvili who holds the position of Defense Minister and who just so happens also to hold Israeli citizenship. POSTED BELOW:
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The Israeli Georgian Connection is more than a thousand years old. Most of the Jewish residents of Israel are of the same stock as of the Jews of Georgia. Non should be shocked to discover the depth of Israel’s involvement in the Georgian/Russian conflict. Once examined, the historical blood relation between Israeli Jews and Georgian Jews, it all becomes clear. Let us take a look first at the current relationship after which we will prove the historical connection between them a little later.


Georgian Minister Temur Yakobashvili said Saturday August 9, 2008 one day after Georgia attacked South Ossetia–“The Israelis should be proud of themselves for the Israeli training and education received by the Georgian soldiers…”

The Jerusalem Post on August 12, 2008 reported: “Georgian Prime Minister Vladimer (Lado) Gurgenidze(Jewish) made a special call to Israel Tuesday morning to receive a blessing from one of the Haredi community’s most important rabbis and spiritual leaders, Rabbi Aharon Leib Steinman.” The Prime Minister of Georgia, principally a nation of Orthodox Christians called Rabbi Steinman saying ‘I’ve heard he is a holy man. I want him to pray for us and our state.’

In addition to the many government officials in Georgia who are ‘Jewish‘ in one way or another is one man in particular, Davit Kezerashvili who holds the position of Defense Minister and who just so happens also to hold Israeli citizenship. Interestingly, his last name happens to be ‘Kezerashvili’ which translates in the Georgian language to ‘child-of-the-Kezer(khazar)’.

Besides the aforementioned men, over a 1000 Israeli military trainers are in Georgia as well as many retired Israeli Generals who have made Georgia home. Lasha Zhvania, Georgia’s former Ambassador to Israel who won election to Georgia’s parliament back on May 21 on the promise to increase Israeli tourism and investments in his country. His mother is Jewish, and in 1988, she brought him to Israel to meet his grandfather, aunts, and other relatives. After that, he returned to Israel every year to get together with relatives dispersed in Kiryat Bialik, Haifa, Nahariya and Netanya. Tens of thousands of Israelis made Georgia their favorite tourists destination. It is clear that the relationship between Georgia and Israel is more than just a political or diplomatic relationship, it seems they also have a Jewish connection and maybe Jewish blood that dates back over 1400 years ago.

Author Arthur Koestler, a Jew himself wrote ‘The evidence adds up to a strong case in favor of those modern historians — whether Austrian, Israeli or Polish — who, independently from each other, have argued that the bulk of modern Jewry is not of Palestinian, but of Caucasian origin. The mainstream of Jewish migrations did not flow from the Mediterranean across France and Germany to the east and then back again. The stream moved in a consistently westerly direction, from the Caucasus through the Ukraine into Poland and thence into Central Europe. When that unprecedented mass-settlement in Poland came into being, there were simply not enough Jews around in the west to account for it; while in the east a whole nation was on the move to new frontiers.” The Caucasus is where the Georgians dwelled and still do. Lets follow this a little deeper to see if we can make a connection between the Jews of Georgia who found themselves on top of Georgia’s political hierarchy with the help of our own CIA and the Jews of Israel who came to Palestine after WWI and II which makes the bulk of Israeli Jews.

Abraham Poliak, an Israeli professor of Medieval Jewish History asked ‘How far we can go in regarding this [Khazar] Jewry as the nucleus of the large Jewish settlement in Eastern Europe? The descendants of this settlement constitute now the large majority of world Jewry.” Austrian historian Kutschera wrote that ‘Eastern European Jews are entirely of Khazarian origin. Even Western Europe Jews who spoke Yiddish or a derivative off such as the Jews of France and Germany had to have came from the Khazar Jews due to the fact that there are no trace of Yiddish in any Western European language.

For those unfamiliar with the term ‘Khazar,’ it was a person from the Khazar Kingdom which occupied the land between the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea. Until the 9th century the Khazars were the masters of the land, very rich due to its vast resources, strategic location and its unrealistic taxation (extortion) systems of surrounding kingdoms. The Khazars adopted the Jewish religion after being pressured to adopt a monotheistic religion similar to the Christians in the West or the Muslims in the East, but decided to adopt Judaism in order to remain independent of the other two religions of the time. The Khazar Kingdom enjoyed strength and prosperity which allowed it to increase its size to include the regions north of the Black Sea and the adjoining steppe and forest regions of the Dnieper. The Khazars controlled the southern half of Eastern Europe for a century and a half, and presented a mighty bulwark, blocking the Ural-Caspian gateway from Asia into Europe. During this whole period, they held back the onslaught of the nomadic tribes from the East.

“The collapse of the Hun Empire after Attila’s death left a power-vacuum in Eastern Europe, through which once more, wave after wave of nomadic hordes swept from east to west, prominent among them the Uigurs and Avars. The Khazars during most of this period seemed to be happily occupied with raiding the rich trans-Caucasian regions of Georgia and Armenia, and collecting precious plunder. During the second half of the sixth century they became the dominant force among the tribes north of the Caucasus”

In 965 AD Russ prince Svyatoslav of Kiev, undertook many military campaigns which led to the breaking up of the Khazar Empire. The Khazar state may have survived until the middle of the 12th century where from 965 AD until its destruction went through many periods of war, peace, and alliances with the Arabs, the Russ, the Persians and the Byzantines separately or in conjunction. Many of its subjects adopted either Islam or Christianity and those who decided to keep their faith migrated to Eastern Europe, Russia or migrated to the south as we are told by Persian poet, Khakani (circa 1106-90) who spent most of his life as a civil servant in the Caucasus and had first hand knowledge of the Caucasian tribes. Khakani told us of ‘Devent Khazars’ where Darband being the defile or ‘turnstile’ between the Caucasus and the Black Sea through which the Khazars used to raid Georgia in the old days. Therefore, it is a fact of history that many Khazar Jews went through this passageway to take refuge in Georgia.

It took 800 years for the Khazar Jews to meet again, after going through Russia, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, and Palestine before they joined forces, again, with their brethren in Georgia against their old arch enemy, the Russ. What took place on August 8, 2008 in South Ossetia proves two points: first, that the Khazar Jews never forgot the war of 965 AD and their defeat by the Russians and (2) today’s “Jews” in “Israel” have no historical claim to the land of Palestine.

Once again we see Zionism, manifesting itself in the illegal state of “Israel” dragging the World into yet another new conflict between a nuclear armed Russia and a nuclear armed US.

The below link has some interesting information of a Russian-Georgian War
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The Russian-Georgian War: Implications for the Middle East

The long-term outcomes of the current Russian-Georgian war will be felt far and wide, from Afghanistan to Iran, and from the Caspian to the Mediterranean. The war is a mid-sized earthquake which indicates that the geopolitical tectonic plates are shifting, and nations in the Middle East, including Israel, need to take notice.

Conclusion
The Russian-Georgian war indicates that the balance of power in western Eurasia has shifted, and that U.S. power may be deteriorating in the face of its lengthy and open-ended commitments in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Global War on Terror, which are leading to a global overstretch.

While the Middle East, and especially the Persian Gulf, will remain a top priority in U.S. foreign policy regardless of who wins the White House, Israel is heading towards a strategic environment in which Russia may play a more important role, especially in its southern tier, from the Black Sea to Afghanistan and western China. Twenty-first century geopolitics is presenting significant survival challenges to the Jewish state and the region.

Much has been and is speculated by the unbelieving world including most of Israel. I would suggest watching geopolitical developments on the ground in the Middle East and surrounding area ..... but stick to the Bible visions for an accurate account of what is actually going to happen. There is also much speculation presented by Christian theological positions on this subject, but one should stay within the scope and content of the Bible prophets regarding end time exegesis.

dear brother fere RUSSIA attacked georgia and other neibour countries why? they are trying to send terrorists,want to occupy some lant etc and always create nuwsense to russia because they attacked them, and never they want to attack israel or other countries without any cause like america

bro.chinnam naidu

Hi Cinnam....(your name reminds me of Cinnamon)

Yes...eventually...Russia will attack Israel. This is prophesied to happen in our scriptures.

no!!!!!

it is not the time.

and the medes (Russia) attacks babylon.

Russia is moving backwards instead of moving forward and looking to the past


their are no signs of russian withdrawel from Georgia and i feel if russia does decide to do what has been sugested attacking israel israel wil be able to handle this them selves israel has shown the world how tuff ther soldires are


righ know russia is showing its pressence in Georgia and will not pull out


do some digging to see why russia will not back off


dont just go by what the press is saying use your head


their are archives i would not trust inter net sites as inter net sites tend to be dodgy


so many think they understand what happend in yugoslavia with out talking to guys like my self who were born in yugoslavia


the cremlin wil not back down and the cremlin wil not be true to its word what russia wil do is control accsess so the press cant tel the rest of the world what is going on that female reporter was lucky to walk away with just a scratch the snipper who shot at her could have killed her russia has trained marksmen

what we need to be doing is praying for the people of Georgia i sort of know why russia wants georgian land but i wil keep quiet

God bles from damo

Daniel 11:44 seems to narrow where the Little Horn can have his seat:

44 But tidings out of the east (China? Iran?) and out of the north (Russia?) shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

And specifically:

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

There are five seas to be "between": 1) Mediterranean, 2) Black, 3) Caspian, 4) Arabian, 5) Red.

The U.S. is currently "seated" in Iraq as "king" "between the seas," but I don't think the U.S., or the president, is the "Little Horn." Perhaps he comes after the U.S. is neutralized from the world scene? The U.S. has not done anything with Egypt at this point, like verse 42 speaks of, which some king of the north comes down to, but not a king as far north as Russia (vs. 44), because there isn't a kingdom farther north than Russia for him to be troubled by.

Anyone have an idea of where "the ships of Chittim" (vs. 30) may be from?

Is there a thread where a lot of these pieces have already been fit together in a plausible scenario?

Thanks.

In Christ,

Mike

Found this:

Because people have been unable to explain the ships of Chittim they have tried to teach that the ships of Chittim was something that occurred around the time of Christ. I would like to give you a quote from The Holman Bible Dictionary.

"Kittim (kit' tim) Tribal name for the island of Cyprus, sometimes spelled Chittim. This name was derived from Kition, a city-state on the south-eastern side of the island. Long associated with maritime lore, the island was ruled first by Greece, then the Assyrians, and finally, Rome. Genesis 10:4 traces the people's roots to Noah's son Japheth. Jeremiah and Ezekiel both mention it in their prophecies (Jer. 2:10; Ezek. 27:6, compare Isa. 23:1,12).

Kittim is used in intertestamental writings as denoting all of the land west of Cyprus. 1 Maccabees credits it as being the land of Alexander the Great (1:1; 8:5). The writer of Daniel understood it to be a part of the Roman Empire (11:30) used to threaten Antiochus Epipanes. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain several references to Kittim, the most notable being the defeat of her people (Romans) at the hands of God's people. See Cyprus."

Kittim and Chittim are one and the same. The Holman Bible Dictionary explained that it was used in intertestamental writings as denoting all of the land west of Cyprus. They also believed that he was probably talking about Rome during a time after Christ. I disagree with them about the Roman Empire. I know that at the time of Christ many Jews called the Romans Chittim, but that was because they were from west of Cyprus. In these scriptures God is simply showing us a group of ships coming from the west of Cyprus that are very powerful. Put it into modern day times. The Jews didn't know that America would exist today. God simply showed Daniel ships coming from the west. This would have been ships from Chittim, to Daniel.

The reason I wanted to bring this point about is because this is the reason that the anti-christ invades Israel. The antichrist is involved in invading the king of the South for the second time. Powerful ships from west of Cyprus come against him. They are a lot stronger than he is. Look at verse 29 to 31 again.
==============================
OR:
The ships of Chittim The ships of the Romans. Popilius and other Roman ambassadors came in galleys and made Antiochus depart from Egypt.
==============================
OR:
Israel's end-time naval power, based in America and Britain. Historically based on the Island of Crete, during the time of King Solomon's Empire.



Wow, so many different views on that one!

The reference to the ships of Kittim is correct here. This is a past event before the first century. It is also correct that the little horn of Daniel 11:36-45 is Middle Eastern king .... not a Russian. He will destroy the northern threat to his ambitions with great furry and very quickly. He and the 10 other kings associated with him will also destroy the "great city" [western nation] of the Gentiles in one day. He will also defeat the king of the south [Egypt| and those who threaten him from the far east [orient]. This little horn will be possessed by satan's beast from the abyss and he will possess supernatural powers far beyond human capacity. No nation or military will stand in his way.

Fere,

Here is a review from my website on the little horn, his geographical location, his actions, and his connection with Satan and Abaddon-Apollyon. I have a number of posts on this forum that cover the same subject.

Daniel 11:36 is a profile of the little horn, king of the north. He is the one Daniel is shown in his earlier vision coming out of the northern division of Alexander's divided empire.

This geographical area of the Middle East was ruled by the northern Greek kings before the first century and Daniel views the little horn arising out of the same area at the time of the end.

This vision contains a number of attributes describing him, his rise to power, his rule of the Middle East, his dealings with other parts of the world, and his eventual demise.

The entity in view is Abaddon, the first beast of Revelation, who will manifest himself in the little horn, human king of the north.

His attributes are both angelic and human which explains his strange make-up. This creature will be unlike any other king of the Gentiles of the past.

It is very significant to understand that the little horn is the combination of a human being and a fallen angel, both acknowledging Satan as their source of power and authority.

This relationship is similar to the one that God has with Jesus, but not technically the same.

Satan considers himself above or equal with God, Abaddon is his substitute for Jesus (antichrist), and the little horn is Abaddon's manifestation as a human. The application of this truth will reveal the correct interpretation of the vision.

This triad will not be presented as a false Jewish or Christian Messiah, however it will be one that many will be deceived into following.

Satan will also attempt to openly exterminate both the nation of Israel, Christians (Jews or Gentiles), and others who will not follow him. He will be out to win at all costs either by deception or direct elimination.

The king (little horn) behaves according to his will which reflects Abaddon's will under the direction and objectives of Satan. There is a definite inter-dependency reflected in this relationship.

The little horn receives his supernatural abilities and related success from Abaddon who in turn receives his power and authority from Satan.

Satan uses these two agents in his unrelenting pursuit to corrupt and destroy humanity, and to usurp God's authority.

Satan's price is that they both worship him as their god and carry out his purposes on the earth at the time of the end.

Satan's personal presence will be restricted to the earth by God at the time of the end of this present age and he will be prohibited from his access to the heavenly dimensions. His next stop will be the abyss for 1,000 years after he is defeated at Armageddon.

The little horn will not recognize the god(s) of his human ancestors, but will honor Satan, and will consider himself to be above all other gods, real or imagined.

He will consider himself above the true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He will have no regard for Jesus who is the Son of God, or any other false gods contrived by humans like the pagan gods.

He will acknowledge Satan as the one and only true god of gods above any other contenders and will claim that he himself is the manifestation of his god.

He will support his authenticity by demonstrating supernatural knowledge and abilities, and by his successes.

His religion will be one that values the ability to wage warfare and destruction. He will honor the god of forces (Satan).

His human ancestors (fathers) were never presented with the direct worship of Satan accompanied by Satan's personal presence and power which will be openly demonstrated to a level never experienced by humans.

Their pagan gods of the past were created by them, were imaginary, and did not exist.

Satan and Abaddon are both real entities and can interact with humans if God permits. In this case God will actually promote this action as part of his judgment process at the time of the end.

He will send strong delusion to a world that refuses to believe the truth about Himself as the only God and Creator of all things including Satan and Abaddon. This delusion is the "lie" that Satan will be allowed to present.

The religion of the little horn will be monotheistic, not pagan, and will resemble the two major religions of Judaism and Christianity. He will claim that his religion supersedes both, and any others that exist at the time.

He will persecute and have put to death those who will not submit to him as the one and only god. His primary targets will be the perceived members of these other two monotheistic religions.

Islam is and has been presented as a monotheistic religion as well, but the Bible does not identify it by name.

The teachings, actions, and extremes of this religion look much like the Bible's description of Satan's system of influence, and control.

I cannot be certain about this because change over time may turn out to create a different landscape. We do not know when these things will begin to take place and it depends on how close we are to the time of the end.

Satan's strategy will include justification for using the most unimaginable destructive forces to eliminate those who will not submit to him.

He will extend Abaddon's rule over many strong holds and he will distribute power, authority, and geographical areas of dominance to those who follow him.

He shall cause them to rule over many and will distribute the land for a price.

Those who oppose him will experience his wrath of unprecedented destruction. Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation note some of the encounters including the elimination and replacement of three of the ten other kings.

He will also destroy the "great city" of Mystery Babylon. The elimination of this great economic power will provide the opportunity for him to expand his Middle Eastern empire further and to dominate the world for a short period of time.

Included will be the defeat of the king of the south and occupation of his land, the invasion, defeat, and occupation of Israel, and of several other countries in the Middle East.

He will also annihilate many in reaction to perceived threats from the north (possibly Russian) and east (possibly China) of Abaddon's base of operations.

Daniel's vision in chapter 8 conveys the dual nature of this final king of the north. He operates as a human king by expanding his earthly empire to the south, the east, and toward the Land of Israel.

He stops Israel from worshiping (daily sacrifice) their God, and gains control of God's temple mount area (place of His sanctuary) which may be the great synagogue at the western wall since the temple itself is no longer there.

His invasion of Israel will include destruction of anything related to the Jews regarding the temple mount and the city of Jerusalem. He will trample the area of the temple, give it to his followers, and control it for 42 months.

John is told in Revelation to measure the temple of God in heaven, but not to measure the temple area that is "without" the earthly temple, for it is given over to the Gentiles to trample for 42 months (3 1/2 years).

He also attempts to eliminate "truth" regarding Israel's covenant relationship with God and he has an army of human followers (host) who serve him in these objectives.

Other significant attributes of this little horn are also revealed in the vision. He has the capacity to engage and defeat some of God's angelic armies (host of heaven).

These angels will be serving God as a restraining force against the little horn's ambitions, but he will have the power and ability to overcome them.

This reveals that the little horn is more than just a human king. He is also Abaddon the beast of Revelation 13 and 17 who will incarnate and possess the king, becoming the eighth king himself.

He will be able to defeat some of the angelic host of heaven, an army that will even include archangels (stars) who cannot restrain him. An ordinary human king cannot do this.

He will defeat the military and economic power of Israel and the same of other prominent world governments. He will also destroy and scatter a major portion of Israel's population.

Abaddon is a very powerful and destructive angelic creature, possibly the most powerful of the fallen angels next to Satan himself.

Abaddon's own strength will be greatly enhanced directly by Satan, and he will be supported by the other fallen angels who join him.

He will even stand up against Jesus (Prince of Princes), but will be defeated at Armageddon and thrown into the lake of fire.

God will turn on him after using him for His judgment process. God will focus His wrath on Abaddon's occupied territories in the Middle East and on the base of his operations.

Abaddon will react in desperation, calling on all forces at his disposal including the armies of the kings of the nations that are left.

It is interesting to note that the Euphrates River will dry up to make way for the armies of the kings that come from the east.

They will move from a staging point at the mouth of the Persian Gulf to another staging area north of Israel located in Syria.

The bed of the entire Euphrates will be used for transporting the armies. The river bed is shallow and has a uniformly flat bottom. The maximum distance traveled will be about 1,500 miles.

God will defeat them at the battle of Armageddon. The little horn (Abaddon's human manifestation), his armies, and allies will die in the battle. Abaddon will be destroyed in the lake of fire and Satan will be sent to the abyss.

One should be careful to notice that Daniel's vision beginning in chapter 11:36 is continuous including chapter 12. The little horn, king of the north, is referred to as the one ("he") who invades and conquers Israel in chapter 12:7.

His agenda (all of these things) listed in chapter 11:36-44 will be completed by the end of 1,260 days (first half of the 70th week). He will then set up the abomination of desolation and begin his 42 month (1,260 day) rule.

Daniel then asks what will happen to Israel after being conquered by the little horn. His is told that there will be a total of 1,335 from when the abomination of desolation is set up to the end of the days of tribulation for Israel.

The additional 75 days include 30 days of God's wrath (7 vials) against his kingdom and his defeat at Armageddon.

There will be another 45 days for gathering the elect of Israel and the separation of the Gentile nations for entrance into the 1,000 year earthly kingdom of Jesus.

The destruction of Jerusalem (the city) and the sanctuary (place of worship) will take place 110 days after the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount.

There will the be another 1,150 days (2,300 mornings and evenings) before Jerusalem and the temple mount are restored to Israel at the end of the tribulation period (110 days + 1,150 days = 1,260 days).

God's wrath will then be directed at the little horn and his followers during the next 30 days. The beginning of this action will draw the little horn away from Jerusalem and the temple mount and both will be recaptured by Israel.

His kingdom will begin to come apart and he will be forced to fight Jesus and the remnant of Israel at Armageddon. He will come to his end in total defeat.

Thank you Stephen for this abundance of information.
I am printing it now to take upstairs to read this evening.
It is time for me to "wind down" and I usually read this time of the evening.

Appreciate it,
Fere

Fere,

Here is another one of my posts at my website regarding the little horn:

Bible prophecy presents a revelation of the existence of the spirit world in addition to the material world of humans. These are angelic and include both those who serve God and those who serve Satan.

The primary example of this involves relationships between Satan and his agents who are fallen angels.

These can operate through human kings like the little horn who rule over human dominions like city/states, countries, nations, and empires. [Revelation 9:11, 12:9, 17:8-11]

The symbol of the horn indicates that the human king position has a satanic connection. Examples of these include Alexander the Great (great horn), the little horn of the time of the end, and the ten horns who will rule with the little horn.

These individual angelic creatures are often referred to as a prince in contrast with a human leader defined as a king. There are God's angelic princes like Michael the archangel who is the protector of the nation of Israel. [Daniel 12:1]

There are also the fallen angels including Satan who presides over others like Abaddon and the false prophet revealed in the Book of Revelation.

Abaddon is the angelic king of the abyss who in turn rules over others like the prince of Persia and the prince of Grecia. Abaddon will be the angelic "prince that shall come" at the end of this present age.

He will rule directly through and in the little horn (human king), and will also rule over the 10 other horns who represent human kings possessed by fallen angels.

The people of the "prince that shall come" were not the Romans during the first century, but will be the human armies and followers of Abaddon.

He is Satan's christ (antichrist) operating directly through the little horn at the time of the end. [Daniel 9:26]

It is his people who will invade Israel during the 70th week. The Roman Empire is not included in the scope of the visions, is not represented by the iron legs of Daniel's image, and was not Daniel's fourth beast.

There is a reference in Daniel 11:30 to the ships of "Chittim" (Rome) interfering with military movements by Antiochus Ephiphanies, the Greek king of the north in the Middle East who ruled at the latter end of the Greek presence.

This naval incursion was carried out by the Romans stationed at Cyprus. Secular history records such an incident that involved a threat directed at Antiochus.

He was conducting military operations against the Greeks ruling the south and was told to end his expansion adventures and leave the area.

The Roman officer drew a circle around Antiochus in the sand and demanded that he give his agreement to cease military operations before he stepped out of the circle.

This humiliated him in front of his men and as he returned to the north he vented his rage by attacking Israel. He had pigs sacrificed on the altar of the temple and placed a statue of Zeus on the temple mount.

Daniel's visions include much detail about the interactions and wars between the Greek kings of the north and those of the south in the Middle East with the remnant of Israelites positioned geographically between these two dominions.

The northern division of Alexander's empire was the one that portrays the track of satanic involvement (the 5th head of the beast) through its kings.

Visions of the prophets are generally focused on the northern sector of the Middle East in relationship to Israel. This area will be Satan's base of operations at the time of the end. [Daniel 8:9-10, 11:40]

Antiochus is the subject of the visions leading up to the end of northern Greek dominance. This king was heavily influenced by Abaddon and his angelic prince of Grecia specifically with his designs against Israel.

It is important to understand that Antiochus was not the "little horn" viewed by Daniel in other parts of his visions. Antiochus was one of the last Greek kings who held the fifth king position related to Abaddon's fifth head (dominion).

Another controversial item involves the break in Daniel's visions between the end of Greek rule and the appearance of the little horn at the time of the end.

Careful study of the actions of Antiochus will verify that all of the verses recording his rule continue through Daniel 11:35 and should be applied to him. Daniel is told that the rest of the vision is for the time of the end.

Some try to apply a number of previous verses up to the end of verse 35 to the little horn of verse 36 and then are looking for those events to take place as part of the time of the end.

Verses 21 through 35 are actually a very accurate account of Antiochus and his political career foretold in advance. Skeptics claim that these things must have been written after the fact by someone other that Daniel because of their accuracy.

Antiochus obtained his position as king by trickery and deception. He had a few very significant political supporters who made it possible for him to seize the larger northern division of Alexander's empire without direct rights to the throne.

He eliminated his political rivals with the support of the large armies of his political backers and then subsequently raised armies of his own to support his designs on additional Middle Eastern territory.

He also deceived the remnant of Israel and the Greek kings of the south by intrigue (forming agreements and breaking them) and subsequent hostile military actions.

His ambitions were to consolidate the Middle Eastern segment of the Greek Empire under his rule. He was never able to conquer the south, but this will be accomplished by the little horn at the time of the end.

He made common cause with Hellenized Jews who were supportive of Greek rule and had the high priest murdered (ruler of the covenant with God). He also subjugated Israel to Greek customs and laws including desecration of the Holy places.

He attacked and killed thousands of Jews who were opposed to Hellenization and would not forsake their covenant with God.

His actions were different than those of his predecessors including his father Antiochus the Great. These rulers were often more benevolent and allowed the Jews a good measure of autonomy.

Some of the Jewish remnant who refused to forsake their covenant with God revolted against Greek rule toward the end of the Greek presence.

The Maccabees succeeded in regaining their independence and restored the temple and related worship that was desecrated by Antiochus. They had support from Rome against their Greek rulers, but eventually became subjected to Roman rule.

Daniel is told at the end of verse 35 that full and permanent restoration for his people would take place, but not until the time appointed by God which will occur at the end of this present age.

A similar situation will exist during the 70th week when Israel will be attacked, invaded, and occupied by the little horn who is the king of verse 36.

Israel's victory will be the result of the return of Jesus to rescue the remnant of the nation.

The last and final king of the north will be Abaddon operating in the little horn (Satan's antichrist).He will incarnate the little horn and persecute Israel during the 70th week at the end of this present age.

Antiochus raised armies and attacked the Greeks ruling the south (Egypt) three times but was never able to conquer and add the south to his kingdom. Egypt will be conquered by the little horn at "the time appointed", which is still yet future.

There is a break in the scope of Daniel's visions at the end of verse 35 which ends with the rule of Antiochus. Verse 36 should be applied to the little horn who will rule the Middle East at the end of this present age.

The little horn's activities will be similar, but will not include all of the things that Antiochus did and will include other things that Antiochus did not do.

Abaddon was active and influencing Antiochus. Glimpses of this truth can be seen when the visions seem to switch from the human king to this angelic master prince and his higher role as the satanic enemy of Jesus. [Daniel 8:9-12]

Some define this as a double reference considering only the human side of the vision which includes both Antiochus and the little horn.

In fact, the common denominator is Abaddon because of his involvement and objectives with the activities of both kings.

There is no double reference between the little horn and Antiochus. They are two different human kings. Abaddon is the same.

Abaddon will continue when he is released from the abyss to influence and ultimately incarnate the little horn during the 70th week.

All of the remaining verses of Daniel 11 starting with verse 36 and including all of chapter 12 apply to the 70th week.

Alexander was the first Greek king of Abaddon's fifth head (dominion) and Antiochus was the last Greek king to hold the position recorded in the scope of Bible prophecy related to Greek domination.

Daniel sees the little horn immediately after he is shown the division of Alexander's empire.

He is told that the divided empire would not be ruled by Alexander's posterity and would be ruled by others even after Greek dominance. [Daniel 8:18-25]

The others will be the people of the little horn who will rule the Middle East during the time of the end. If we are close to the beginning of the time of the end, these would be the current Islamic occupiers of the area.

The little horn's dominion is described, but not named, and his people (his armies and followers) are not identified by names like the Romans, the Ottoman Turks, and the British.

There are indications of where the geographical locations of the inhabitants will be and their ancestral links.

Psalms 83 is an example of this that includes land areas adjacent and close to the Land of Israel. The mention of a covenant may be the same as in Daniel 9:27.

If we are close to the time of the end then the current Islamic occupiers of the Middle East would be suspect. The student of Bible prophecy should consider this possibility.

The little horn is the subject of the 70th week who will rule the sixth head (dominion) of the beast which he will expand to form the seventh. He is the king of fierce countenance in Daniel 8 and the king described in Daniel 11:36.

Thank you (again). I will print this too.

Fere

Fere,

It is also significant for one to understand Ezekiel 38,39 in reference to Gog:

God addresses "Gog" in Ezekiel 38 and 39 with respect to Israel's return to the Land of Israel at the end of this current age.

Careful study of Ezekiel's vision and other related Scriptures are necessary in order to identify Gog and his involvement over a very broad time frame.

This includes his connection to both the spirit world, human kings, and the human organizations contained within the dominions of the human kings.

There are some identifiers and other links to be considered which will lead to the realization that Gog is not human.

This entity has angelic characteristics which can be determined by studying the identifiers and the links.

Gog is identified by other Biblical prophets as being connected with different human rulers, in different geographical areas, at different times, over periods which exceed the limitations of human life span. [Ezekiel 38:17]

God's angelic creatures do not age and are the same as they were at their creation. This angelic trait allows for perpetual involvement over vast time periods. [Ezekiel 28:11-19] [Revelation 20:1-3]

God notes that Gog is a subject of many of the prophets, yet he is referred to as "Gog" in only one other place in Scripture in the Book of Revelation. This must mean that he is identified by different profiles. [Ezekiel 38:17]

All other references refer to him or his agents by some other name or title. For example, Daniel sees the prince that is to come (Abaddon) and the little horn (human king). Both of these entities will be empowered and directed by Satan.

Gog is described as the chief prince, in this case, of Mesheck and Tubal. The term "prince" is usually applied to an angelic ruler who rules over, influences, and operates through human kings (horns). [Ezekiel 38:2]

The term "chief prince" indicates that this prince is the ruler or leader of others of the same kind. I do not believe the Hebrew word "rosh" used for chief is in reference to Russia as some teach, but should be translated as chief or head prince.

The title of "prince" is revealed to Daniel in describing angelic activity related to the archangel Michael's battle against the opposing forces of the princes of Persia and of Grecia. [Daniel 10:13-20]

The title of prince is used by God when addressing the human king of Tyre. The message goes beyond the king to another entity who apparently has interaction and control over the king. [Ezekiel 28:11-19]

Isaiah contains references addressed to the prince of Babylon and to Lucifer. These are descriptions of Satan's existence as an angelic being and his connection with humanity. [Isaiah 14:12-17]

Another prince that "shall come" will be revealed at the end of this age during Israel's 70th week. Daniel contrasts this entity with Jesus, the Messiah, the Prince that was "cut off". [Daniel 9:26-27]

This prince will stand against (oppose) the Prince of Princes, who is Jesus. The result of the conflict will be the destruction of this prince (first beast of Revelation) in the lake of fire at Armageddon. [Revelation 19:20]

Other references to Satan and his agents in the visions of the prophets include the Assyrian, prince of Persia, prince of Grecia, king of the abyss, the destroyer, man of lawless, and son of perdition.

Satan plays the role of "chief prince" when his angelic agents are functional. He is the power behind them as they do his bidding in relation to the influence and control of human kings and their dominions. [Ezekiel 38:2]

I believe that Abaddon is Satan's (Gog's) agent for all seven heads (human dominions) as they are defined in Revelation 13 and 17. He is the beast from the abyss.

It is clearly stated that "the beast (Abaddon) has seven heads". Five have fallen (are historical) and the other two will exist in sequence during the 70th week. [Revelation 17:7-13]

Abaddon's connection with the seven human king "positions" is limited to influence and control. He is "of the seven" and is connected with all of them.

This limitation will change when God allows him to become the eighth king himself by an actual incarnation. This is the "lie" and strong delusion that God will send.

It will occur during the little horn's rule in the seventh king position. "Of the seven" can also be translated "of the seventh" which more specifically describes Abaddon's connection with the little horn. [Revelation 17:11]

He will then become the 8th king himself. This manifestation will be exceptionally unique to humans who experience his presence. [2Thessalonians 2:3-12]

The little horn will expand his sixth Middle Eastern dominion toward the south, the east, and toward Israel by forming alliances and by conquest. [Daniel 8:9]

He will be occupying the seventh king position of the seventh dominion when Abaddon becomes the eighth king himself by incarnating the little horn. [Revelation 17:11]

Abaddon will rule directly as king over most of the Middle East for a 42 month period (1,260 days) which will occur during the last half of the 70th week. [Daniel 11:36-44]

He will be destroyed by God in the lake of fire at the end of the next 30 day period, and Satan will be sent to the abyss for 1,000 years. [Revelation 19:20, 20:1-3]

Revelation 20 records Satan's future release after the 1,000 years and his attempt to deceive the nations once more.

He is referred to as Gog again, and all of the nations involved are referred to symbolically as Magog. [Revelation 20:7-10]

God addresses Satan as Gog in Ezekiel and Revelation because of his early connections with the inhabitants of the Land of Magog shortly after the flood.

The focus of Bible prophecy presents the view of Satan's activities, specifically in the northern regions of the Middle East. [Ezekiel 38:15]

I believe this is because of the area's position in relation to Eden, Mount Ararat, and its northern interface with the Land of Israel.

The larger land areas of the early habitations of humans in the Middle East shortly after the flood are described in the Bible as the Land of Egypt, the Land of Canaan, the Land of Magog, and the Land of Shinar.

These lands formed a crescent shape from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf starting with the Land of Egypt and ending with the Land of Shinar in clockwise order.

The Land of Israel was developed later which replaced part of the Land of Canaan on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean.

The area of the ancient Land of Magog today would include northeastern Syria, eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, and possibly Armenia and Georgia.

It is currently inhabited by a mixed group of original ethnic tribal ancestry plus genetic lineage from the other land areas of the Middle East.

Members of Magog's descendants have also migrated to other parts of the earth over a long period of time.

The current populations located in the ancient Land of Magog are mainly Turkoman, Assyrian, Kurdish, Iranian (Medes and Persians), and Arab.

The predominant religion is Islam. This common theology may have significance with regard to end time events.

The core of the area in view is northeastern Turkey, northern Syria, northern Iraq, and northwestern Iran. This area is in a state of change as a result of the USA invading Iraq.

This is most likely where Satan's antichrist (Abaddon incarnated in the little horn) will arise to power in the Middle East at the time of the end.

Why does God addressed Satan as Gog, connect him with the Land of Magog, and identify him as the chief prince of Mesheck and Tubal?

Why does God call him out of his place in the north to attack a regathered Israel in the Land of Israel at the end of this age?

God has allowed Satan to rule over this northern geographical area, from shortly after the flood and continuously through Greek rule.

The visions of the prophets indicate his presence in the same geographical area at the time of the end.

Included are the original Land of Magog, the Akkadian/Assyrian Empire, and the subsequent empires of neo-Babylon, Persia, and Grecia.

All of these human dominions were centered in the ancient Middle East with connections to the northern area of the Fertile Crescent. This same area will be Satan's base of operation at the time of the end.

He will come from his place out of the north, the ancient area of the Land of Magog, with the objective of seizing control of the Middle East and destroying the nation of Israel.

Satan's strategy for this event will include Abaddon, the false prophet who appears in the Land of Israel, and the little horn who will become the human manifestation of Abaddon.

The little horn will emerge from the same area as "king of the north" and he will expand his rule to include much of the Middle East.

He is seen as coming out of the northern division of Alexander's divided empire at the time of the end. He will then expand his control over most of the Middle East.[Daniel 8:9-12, 8:23-25]

One important identifier will be the location of his original base of operation at the time of the end, and not necessarily his ethnic origin.

He does not have to be a direct descendant of Magog, although this is a possibility, but he must appear in the area of the ancient Land of Magog.

Satan is the "chief prince", as indicated in one of his former relationships with the trading centers of Mesheck and Tubal. Magog's younger brothers were the founders of these two early prominent commercial centers of trade. [Ezekiel 27:13, 38:2]

Abaddon is the angelic "prince" who carries out Satan's bidding, and the little horn is the human ruler who will be incarnated by Abaddon at the time of the end. [Revelation 17:8-11]

A very important truth is revealed from these identifiers. Satan will attempt to mimic the relationship that God has with Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God and also the Son of Man. He is both God and human.

Satan aspires to replace God and will offer Abaddon as his christ (antichrist) who will appear to humans as being both a god and human. [2Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Abaddon's power as a fallen angel will be far greater than any ordinary human. His willingness and ability to destroy will not be matched. He will astonish humans who see him and they will believe his claim to be a god. [Daniel 8:23-25] [Revelation 13:2-8]

God addresses Satan as Gog in Ezekiel and Satan is called Gog in Revelation. The ancient Land of Magog in the Middle East has been and will be Satan's point of origin on the earth at the time of the end.

Stephen:

Wouldn't Gog be Russian? That has been my understanding.

The Antichrist- Roman? Syrian? Is he Jewish? Gentile?

Thanks (in advance)......

------------------------------------------------------
<<<edited later>>> - Can disregard above dashed line -
I have been reading what I printed from your post. Very good information BTW.

I asked a question above that you answered before I asked:
The Antichrist- Roman? Syrian? Is he Jewish? Gentile?

You (Stephen) said:
The religion of the little horn will be monotheistic, not pagan, and will resemble the two major religions of Judaism and Christianity. He will claim that his religion supersedes both, and any others that exist at the time.
&
The little horn will emerge from the same area as "king of the north" and he will expand his rule to include much of the Middle East.

NEW QUESTION: What is considered the land/area of the "king of the north"?

Then my second question is:
Wouldn't Gog be Russian?

Thanks!

Stephen :

I have been missing you and your post !

Dedicated To `bill`: Russian Theory/rosh/resh/head, GOG-MAGOG . . . Russia/Tubal;Moscow
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...mp;#entry224311

So where does Russia fit, Stephen ?

Thank you ----------

The Russian and "Gog" question:

The idea that Ezekiel 38, 39 identifies a Russian leader invading Israel at the time of the end is speculative and a traditional approach made by many. I see it differently. Gog is a reference to Satan himself as addressed directly by the Lord. The beast and the little horn, human king of the north are not addressed in the passage, but their leader is. Satan is the one behind the invasion of the human little horn at the middle of the tribulation period [Ezekiel 38:17]. Ezekiel's vision then jumps to the end of the tribulation period and records his defeat at Armageddon.

The Lord refers to the "land " of Magog a descendant of Japeth. It is this "land area" that pinpoints the geographical end time scene. The original post flood identifiers are used. The original settlements of Magog and his brothers were north central locations in the Middle East.

Daniel 11:36-45 is the conquering campaign of the little horn .... Satan's [Gog's] human dupe. It is this northern Middle Eastern king who will rise at the time of the end and he is the same as the human invader of Israel who will unite 10 other kings from the same area. The Islamic Middle East is a divided kingdom today with about 10 significant divisions at this time.

This northern king will succeed in conquering most of the Middle East, destroy the "great city" of western origin, fend off all other opposition including those from the far east and far north [most likely Russian], and will invade and occupy Israel and make it part of his core geographical kingdom.

"Rosh" in Ezekiel 38 should be interpreted as "head" prince ..... not Russia. Satan is the "chief" prince of the fallen angelics. The other designators in the passage are all original settlements of the post-flood era. The same will be the scene at the time of the end. Satan has been causing human rebellion in the area since the flood and has ruled there through various human kingdoms that have succeeded one another. The land of Magog was the first noted in the scope of the visions of the prophets. There are 7 kingdoms in the scope. Five have fallen and two are yet future. Satan will rule there again through his beast [incarnaterd in the little horn] at the time of the end.

The first [6th] will be a smaller kingdom at the beginning of the tribulation period. He will expand it into the 7th larger "divided" kingdom of iron and clay ... his final kingdom just before the Lord comes and destroys it. Satan will then be sent to the abyss for 1,000 years. He will emerge again to cause another human rebellion at the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom. Revelation refers to this action by noting him as "Gog" again and the rebellious nations [symbolically "Magog"].

This human king of the north that some refer to as the "antichrist" will be exceptional and will posses powers unknown to human technology. No nation or military will stop him. He has not appeared yet, although he may be present on the earth at this time. He will not aqppear as the little horn until after the tribulation starts. This period of the Lord's judgment of unbelieving humanity will begin without warning or signs and the first evidence of the beginning will be a great worldwide earthquake noted in Revelation 8. Satan and his fallen angelics will also come to the earth at the time. It will be then that the little horn and the 10 other kings will emerge. He will begin his ambitions and will complete his conquering including the invasion and occupation of Israel by midweek. He will then rule for 42 months until the Lord turns on him and his followers.

The Romans were not the people of the "prince who will come" as some say by pointing to the 70 A.D. campaign. 70 A.D. is not in the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets. It was not the time of the end. Compare Zechariah 12,13, and 14 which refutes this idea. Zechariah's vision is about the time of the end. The people of the prince will be his followers during the 70th week decreed for national Israel.

Thank you, Stephen:

I will digest the Post #28, then return (later) with more fine-tuned questions.

Much love and respect, . . .


Betty

Stephen:

Good morning!
A bit off topic, but if the Antichrist is currently on earth, would you believe him to know what his evil plans are, would he recognize that he is the Antichrist? Or would that most likely come later?
Why would Satan do what he is destined to do, if he knows the end result will be failure? He should know that he is no match for God. That his fate has been sealed. Or perhaps he is arrogant and actually believes that he has a chance......

Sorry for all the questions...........

God Bless.
Fere

POST #9
`the Name Change`, Dream
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...=20564&st=6

(excerpt)
The Tagin (crown) are seven (7) specific seal's, that are anointing
the new name of those people, who overcome the Beast.

Not even the Beast know's who will receive the new name's
Assigned, to The New Jerusalem.



Fere:

I would like Stephen to comment on your question, also.

However, I do know from this message I was given from the Throne Room, vision . . . last Nov. 2007, that the Beast, does not know everything.


p.s.

I am finding your Bible Symbol web, very helpful ! Thank you, Fere !

Thank you for that, I always appreciate any input from others----anything that helps me learn and understand. (I don't know how to abbreviate your sign name - Crown? Seven? C7?). Wait, I think Seven is another abbrev. for someone.

Never assume (I assumed) that Satan knows all we know about the end times and his fate. I suppose him not knowing all of it would make him more eager to do what he will do. Which would make more sense to me.

I am glad you are enjoyed the symbols post - good work on your part BTW. I enjoy looking at that, it helps me to understand more.

Have a great day!

Fere

Oh, the "web" that is one I came across and found it helpful.

Fere,

"Or perhaps he is arrogant and actually believes that he has a chance......"

This is the answer. Satan considers himself to be above God and so will his mimics .... the beast [Abaddon-Apollyon] and the human little horn. Review Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Satan already knows about his ultimate fate even after he is released from the abyss at the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom. He just does not care about this promised and true judgment that will be executed upon him by the Lord. His arrogance and pride are still in tact and operating against the Lord. Also notice his awareness of the short time frame alotted to him during the tribulation period [Revelation 12:12]

Satan does not know all of the knowledge that the Lord possesses for sure .... neither does any created being, but he can read the scriptures and his fate is recorded there very clearly. Whether he believes it and or accepts it as truth is another thing. He would most likely say that the Lord is either wrong ..... or lying, just like he did in the Garden of Eden.

Thank you Stephen. I can't believe I missed Rev. 12:12, how clear is that!

Nap time for me!!!!!

From source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=...mp;pageId=72878
Suprise! Russia not about to invade Mideast (syas new prophecy theory)


Came across this on WorldNetDaily:


Surprise! Russia not about to invade Mideast, says new prophecy theory
But an unexpected war is imminent, according to best-selling new biblical analysis
Posted: August 19, 2008
9:59 pm Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily


WASHINGTON – Even though Russia has advanced south into Georgia, a best-selling new Bible prophecy book says suggestions this signals an imminent march into the Middle East are mistaken.

Instead, says Bill Salus, author of "Isralestine," the world is about to be surprised by a different kind of devastating regional war involving Israel and its Arab neighbors.

"Isralestine: The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East," currently rising to the top of the prophecy charts, says scholars have missed a significant piece of what the Bible reveals about the future of the region. And it has many of them reconsidering their prophetic model for the near future.

"You can set Russia's recent invasion of Georgia and Israel's concern over Iran's nuclear aspirations on the back burner, not that these topics lack importance," says Salus. "The stage is not adequately set for the highly publicized Ezekiel 38 and 39 Russian-Iranian nuclear-equipped consortia of nations to invade Israel. Psalm 83 comes first, and then Ezekiel 38 follows on its heels like a Goliath shadow. There are two distinct invasions of Israel, one building upon the other, with both occurring sequentially in the Middle East."

According to Salus, the next war in the Middle East will involve Israel's closest Arab neighbors – not faraway Iran or Russia, the re-emerging military power to the north. He says a sometimes overlooked or misinterpreted passage in Psalm 83 is the key to understand the next major prophetic development. He says it suggests Palestinians, al-Qaida, Hezbollah, Hamas, Syrians, Saudis, Egyptians and Jordanians will confederate and launch an all-out war against Israel before what has been called the "battle of Armageddon" involving another alliance of Iran, Russia and Turkey.

"Indeed something is very near, but it is not Armageddon," says Salus.

The theory has many long-time students of Bible prophecy sitting up and taking notice.

The result of this regional war will be devastation for the Arabs who launch it and startling territorial and resource gains by Israel, claims the theory. It is this unexpected development that will precipitate the final showdown involving what has been termed "the Ezekiel invasion."

Fere,

Psalms 83 is the defining arrangemet of those who will invade and occupy Israel. Notice that Ashure is with them. The peoples described are the followers of the little horn who will emerge in the ancient post flood territory of Magog and his brothers .... this would be northern Iraq today. Ashure built Nineveh and this location is across the Tigris River from Mosel. This is the same core land of the ancient Assyrian empire. Satan's end time human king of the north [the little horn] is called the "Assyrian" in the visions of the Bible prophets. This individual will not be a Russian or European, but a Middle Eastern Islamic leader.

The "outer" nations of the world will not invade Israel, but will fall victim to the little horn in his rise to power and rule. Neither will there be nuclear weapons used in the Middle East because of all that must take place there at the time of the end. However, the little horn will use them against outside contender nations and he will obliterate millions of people in the process.

The focus of the Bible prophets is a Middle Eastern focus and if one wants to understand what is going to take place at the time of the end one must know this fact. Otherwise, much extra-Biblical speculation has been and is generated and totally off course. The stage is currently being set up for the emergemce of the little horn, the 10 other Middle Eastern kings, and followers. It is these who will invade Israel and attempt to rule the world from the Middle East.

I am posting Psalm 83. I have never heard of this part of the Bible part of the end times prophecy. It was new to me. Thank you Stephen for your above note.

I really wish I could find a site that show what books and verses of the Bible are tied with the end times. Since they seem to be scattered. If someone knows of where to find this information, please share it here. Thanks.

Psalm 83


1
(1) A song; a psalm of Asaph.
2
God, do not be silent; God, be not still and unmoved!
3
See how your enemies rage; your foes proudly raise their heads.
4
They conspire against your people, plot against those you protect.
5
They say, "Come, let us wipe out their nation; let Israel's name be mentioned no more!"
6
They scheme with one mind, in league against you:
7
(2) The tents of Ishmael and Edom, the people of Moab and Hagar,
8
Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek, Philistia and the inhabitants of Tyre.
9
Assyria, too, in league with them gives aid to the descendants of Lot. Selah
10
(3) Deal with them as with Midian; as with Sisera and Jabin at the torrent Kishon,
11
Those destroyed at Endor, who became dung for the ground.
12
Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
13
Who made a plan together, "Let us seize the pastures of God."
14
My God, turn them into withered grass, into chaff flying before the wind.
15
As a fire raging through a forest, a flame setting mountains ablaze,
16
Pursue them with your tempest; terrify them with your storm.
17
Cover their faces with shame, till they pay you homage, LORD.
18
Let them be dismayed and shamed forever; let them perish in disgrace.
19
Show them you alone are the LORD, the Most High over all the earth.

This was a footnote underneath it.......

Footnotes

1 [Psalm 83] The community lament complains to God of the nations' attempts to wipe out the name of Israel (Psalm 83:1-8). The psalmist sees all Israel's enemies throughout its history united in a conspiracy (Psalm 83:2-8). May God destroy the current crop of enemies as the enemies of old were destroyed (Psalm 83:9-12), and may they be pursued until they acknowledge the name of Israel's God (Psalm 83:13-18).

2 [7-9] Apart from the Assyrians, all the nations listed here were neighbors of Israel. The people of . . . Hagar: a tribe of the desert regions east of Ammon and Moab (1 Chron 5:10, 19-22). Gebal is the Phoenician city of Byblos or perhaps a mountain region south of the Dead Sea. The descendants of Lot are Moab and Edom (Genesis 19:36-38 and Deut 2:9). These nations were never united against Israel in the same period; the psalm has lumped them all together.

3 [10-13] For the historical events, see Jdgs 4-8.

Fere,

The ancient enemies of Israel are still there today and they are the ones who are confederating together as Psalms 83 predicts. They are joined under the banner of Islam today. The territories of the same are also noted in Ezekiel 38 with a bit of a broader perspective, but all are the direct Middle Eastern enemies of Israel.

You might want to review my website. It's focus is primatily upon the time of the end and brings many of the Bible prophets visions together regarding the subject. I keep the site updated frequently with information.

If you have questions please ask and I will attempt to answer. If I do not know the answer I will tell you.

www.prophecy1.blogspot.com

Thanks Stephen.


------------------------------------------
NEWS, NEWS AND MORE NEWS

Look what Iran is saying now:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull
Ahmadinejad calls Israel 'germ of corruption' to be 'removed soon'

More news:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26306440/
Russia digs in as Georgia pullback date nears
Georgian soldiers claim Russians are trying to provoke more conflict

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=...mp;pageId=72926
'Cold War' fears in Middle East
Israel sees 'theater of conflict' emerging as Russia boosts military ties with Syria

Hi Stephen,

Good to see you are still alive and kicking. I missed you. I see you have not changed your view on the Ezekiel Gog/Magog War. At least you are consistent with your interpretation of Bible Prophecy. I hope that all folks will open their eyes and understand that Ezekiel's prophectic vision from God is a vision based on a future Russian/Islamic War agaisnt Israel and not the end time battle of Armageddon. The Ezekiel War is the war that brings about the rise of the Beast's "little horn" and thus ushers in the start of Daniel's 70th week. The participants (Russia, Iran and other Islamic nations) of the Ezekiel War against Israel, will be utterly defeated by God on the mountains of Israel. This is the sign needed for the A/C to make himself known to the world. The A/C will magnify himself such that he will be viewed by most of mankind as the one who was responsible for ending the Ezekiel War and destroying the Gog/Magog invasion forces. Mankind will be all too eager to accept this imposter, as they will all be thirsty for peace. The Great Deception and persecution of the saints begins.

Ezekiel 38:17

Thus says the Lord GOD: “Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them?

IMHO the verse above is one of the most telling verses in the Book of Ezekiel. The verse is posed as a question from God, asking Gog if he is the one spoken of in former days by God's servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that God would bring you against them. IMHO there is a reason why this is posed as a question and not a statement from God. Instead of God saying....you ARE the one spoken of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that God would bring you against them. God asks Gog if he is the one spoken of in former days by the prohets of Israel. The reason this is posed as a question is because Gog is not the one spoken of in former days by the prophets of Israel. Gog is not the A/C. Gog is not Daniel's "Little horn". Gog is not the false messiah. Gog is not the Islamic Mahdi. Gog is just a pawn of God. God uses Gog as a tool (put's hooks into him), so as to show Israel and all of mankind how great and powerful God is. Unfortunately this display of God's great and awesome power will fall on many deaf ears, once the A/C makes himself known to the world after the end of the Gog/Magog War.


God's Blessings!!

Rob

Gog is the "one" for sure that the Lord addresses. The entire context of the passage is about Satan [Gog] .... and he is the "one" for sure. He is identified by different titles and extensions in all of the other prophet's visions, but he is definitely the one.

Your wrong on this one Stephen! Gog is not the "one" spoken of in the other prophet's visions. God is questioning Gog on whether he is the "one" spoken of. Why is God *asking* Gog if he is the one? Why is God questioning it? I will tell you why....because gog is not the "one" spoken of by the prophets. He is just a pawn of God. God put's a hook into the jaw of Gog for one reason and one reason only and that is to allow God the opportunity to show the nation of Israel and the rest of mankind, the great and awesome power that God can display at anytime, at a time and place of God's choosing.

God's Blessings!!

Rob

In the last 150 years or so, the idea of Russia's eschatological role in identification with Gog has been proclaimed primarily by dispensationalists (i.e., the pre-tribulation camp). At this point, I believe it's more plausible to conclude that this view may have taken things too far north in that assumption. The mounting anti-semitism in the nations immediately surrounding Israel (namely, those nations under the sway of the Islamic phenomenon) seems to identify much more with the lands mentioned in Ez. 38 and Ps. 83, along with a few other references. Read those two chapters carefully and prayerfully. Since the prophetic scriptures are intensely "Jerusalem-centric", it goes without saying that the vast majority of what is spoken in the Bibl e refers to the land of Israel itself, and some of its surrounding nations.


The Joel Richardson book, "The Anti-Christ: Islam's Awaited Messiah", lays this out in the simplest and most readable form that I've seen. We can't assume that every detail is crystal clear yet, but there seems to be some credence to that view. Russia could have involvement in all of this. They are roughly 24% Muslim, and the truth is that we don't know how the Anti-Christ is going to unite forces against Israel and the Church during that ultimately trying time. It could be that the Anti-Christ empire includes Islam, but is not entirely Islamic. We simply do not know yet. We do know that the tension continues to mount, and the need for an apostolic Church becomes more and more evident as the days go by. Who shall be fit to express the nature of Jesus in a time of profound last days' trial? Only a people who are learning to abide in Him today.


I do believe that calling Russia the "northern land" referred to in Scripture is a premature jump. I feel even stronger that it may be a downright error. The fact is clear, however, that militant multi-national hatred is building against Israel, and especially against the "holy covenant." The powers of darkness have an especial vendetta against anything that God has established, so the covenant with Israel that we've been grafted into is their chief pet peeve. They want it obliterated, and t hey want the Jews and Christians obliterated with it.


Our only safeguard for overcoming their attacks and lures is to see an increase in our hearts of the intimate knowledge of Christ, to express Him more, to love Him more, to see Him more, to abide in His life in all that faces us today. He will break us free from the spirit of this age: the compromise, the fear, the anxiety, the self-absorption and self-consciousness. He will cause us to be sons and daughters who shine with the light of truth, compassion and holiness. He will be faithful to raise up His house in the earth, and "every eye shall see" His glory.

"Your wrong on this one Stephen! Gog is not the "one""

The context of the passage requires that he is the one for sure. Why would God need to tell Satan that he is not the one? He is definitely the one. You are really stretching your interpretation to support your pre-70th week war that you think will take place by the Russians and the Middle Eastern Islamics against Israel. Very unlikely to happen .... an alliance between the Russians and the Islamics would be like trying to mix oil and water. Russia was expiated from the Middle East in the recent pass by the adherents of Islam and Russia is not even capable of dealing with them over time. Russians are infidels according to the Koran. Nor is this venture that you propose even in the scope of the Bible prophets' visions for the time of the end. Anything can happen before and outside of the scope, but would have to be totally speculative on your part. Many do these things and their projections turn out to be wrong because of not relying upon the scriptures alone.

So we don't believe in the Gog Magog prophecy of the bible?

N.W. said:

"So we don't believe in the Gog Magog prophecy of the bible?"

Oner must believe in all of the scriptures and certainly Ezekiel 38, 39. It is the interpretation tha needs to be correct. Careful study of the vision and the others that are related to it present primatily a Middle Eastern focus geographically and the Lord addresses Satan as Gog directly who will be the instigator of the invasion of Israel at the time of the end. Revelation also refers to Satan as Gog and the nations [symbolically "Magog"] that he will deceive after the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth. This different and next human rebellion caused by Satan after the invasion of Israel during the tribulation period will be at least 1,007 years away. This fact proves that Gog is not human, but Satan .... a fallen angelic, the "chief" prince of all the fallen angelics and god of this present world.

He was the prince of Mesheck and Tubal in the post flood era and ruled over the land of Magog and his brothers. This area was then later dominated by the Assyrians, then neo-Babylonians, Persians, and northern Greeks. This same central northern Middle Eastern territory will be the base for the rise of the little horn at the time of the end according to the visions. Satan rules over human kingdoms through his angelic and human agents. So Gog cannot be a Russian leader as many have thought, but Satan himself behind his human mimic, the little horn, seen in Daniel's visions during the time of the end. Not only that but Satan, and his protracted angelic and human agencies, is the one spoken of by the other Bible prophets with different titles like the prince of Babylon, the prince that shall come, the little horn, etc. They all see him behind the rebellion of human intransigence. Not only that, but human life span is not lengthly enough to cover the vast time frames of Satan's involvement in human affairs.

The Lord draws Satan and his following against Israel for the purpose of causing a remnant of the nation to turn to Him. He will also bring down all othe the other national governments in the process. Ezekiel sees the invasion at midweek and then the vision jumps to the battle of Armageddon whic is primarily directed against Satan's beast [little horn] and his 42 month kingdom. Read the visions carefully and see why the Lord does this .... what His purpose is at the time.

August 26, 2008

Dimitri Medvedev raises spectre of new Cold War

Russia put the West on alert for a new Cold War that the Kremlin is ready to fight, its President said yesterday.

President Medvedev set tensions soaring when he recognised the independence of two breakaway republics inside Georgia. “We are not afraid of anything, including the prospect of a Cold War,” he said. Hours earlier he had ordered his Foreign Ministry to start establishing diplomatic ties with the secessionist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

The move brought instant condemnation from the United States, Britain, France, Germany and other Western countries. President Bush appealed to the Kremlin to “reconsider this irresponsible decision”. David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, said that it was “unjustifiable and unacceptable”.

Mr Medvedev, whose troops still occupy positions in Georgia, including in the vital Black Sea port of Poti, said that he did not want a return to the Cold War, but that “everything depends on the position of our partners”.
Times Archive, 1976: Why Russia may think she can win a nuclear war

The nuclear balance, always a fragile and uncertain edifice, is being demolished before our very eyes

* Why fears of Soviet strategic superiority in nuclear weapons should not be exaggerated

Related Links

* Georgia begs the West for help

* Russian threat to Nato supply route

* Medvedev has final say on regions' recognition

The sense of a stand-off deepened when US officials reversed a statement that American warships would be delivering humanitarian aid to Poti. A US diplomat in Tbilisi had announced that two guided missile warships would be docking at the port despite the Russian military presence. Mr Medvedev accused the Americans of trying to smuggle weapons to the Georgians.

President Saakashvili of Georgia declared that Russia’s backing for the separatists was illegal, and accused it of looking for any excuse to provoke Georgia and allow Russia’s military machine to roll back into his country.

He said that Russian forces were building up in Akhalgori in South Ossetia, 20 miles (30km) north of Tbilisi. Remnants of Georgia’s security forces were guarding makeshift checkpoints on the road to Akhalgori, and South Ossetian paramilitaries refused entry to all but local residents, a mixture of South Ossetians and Georgians.

Later, a Russian army helicopter swooped over the Georgian forces and ordered them to withdraw. The Georgians, under orders from their President not to ignite a new war, complied.

from source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle4615158.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...-escalates.html
Russia threatens to supply Iran with top new missile system as 'cold war' escalates
Excerpt:
The system would take up to a year to become operational. In the meantime, Israel would come under heavy domestic pressure to launch an attack on Iranian nuclear plants, which the West believes are part of a secret atomic weapons programme but which Tehran claims are for civilian energy.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/127397
Israel Has Decided: Iran Will Not Have Nukes
Excerpt:
(IsraelNN.com) Israel's leadership resolved, in top-level strategic discussions three months ago, to do whatever it takes to prevent Iran from having nuclear bombs. This is Maariv's front-page headline on Friday.

Maariv's veteran political reporter Ben Caspit stops short of detailing the precise solution Israel will implement to put an end to Iran's nuclear program, but writes, "Preparations for an Israeli military option intended to stop Iran's nuclear program are underway."

The results of the series of highest-level discussions are thus clear: "The debate between those who believe in doing everything, including a military operation, to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear bomb, and those who think we can live with Iranian nukes, has been settled."

Not only that, but "if the ayatollahs' regime does not fall in the next year, if the Americans do not strike militarily, and if the international sanctions do not break the Iranian nuclear plan, Israel will have to act forcefully."

.....Caspit writes that at present, the U.S. is refusing to cooperate with the Israeli plan and will not give Israel the necessary permission and codes it needs to overfly Iraq in order to attack Iran. "We'll help you defend yourselves," the Americans say, offering special radar systems, "but we won't let you attack."

A security source put it this way: "The Americans have accepted the fact that Iran will be a nuclear power, and are trying to get us to accept it too." But we will not, says Caspit.
=======================================================
Russia, Russia, Russia! I just added these articles because I found them to be just another addition to the pot that keeps stirring. It sounds like (from the article) that Israel is planning to do something real soon in regards to Iran and their nuclear program.
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On another note (even though it does not really belong in this thread):

Abbas Tells Olmert: It's All or Nothing
Published: 08/31/08, 11:14 PM

(IsraelNN.com) Palestinian Authority (PA) chairman Mahmoud Abbas met with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert for less than an hour on Sunday and said, "Either we agree on all issues, or no agreement at all." Prime Minister Olmert "entered the meeting in a weakened position after his decision to submit his resignation this month when his party picks a new leader," according to reports filed by the French news agency AFP and the Associated Press.

In describing the entrance to the Prime Minister's official residence where the talks took place, the journalists pointed out that "Israeli police passed through the same entrance to interrogate Olmert for the seventh time in a series of corruption cases" last Friday.

As the meeting broke up, the Israeli leader grabbed Abbas's hand, posed for photographers and exclaimed, "We have to complete the Annapolis process this year - this year."

But his words fell on deaf ears, and PA negotiator Saeb Erakat told AP that the PA will not consider a pact that does not settle the issue of the status of Jerusalem and the Arab demand for the immigration of several million foreign Arabs into Israel, which it refers to as the "right of return."
"We want an agreement to end the (Israeli) occupation and establish an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital," Erekat said.

Mark Regev, spokesman for Prime Minister Olmert, tried to maintain an optimistic view and commented that "considerable progress has been made" although there are still "considerable gaps" between the two sides. He did not reveal details.
=======================================================
I am wondering if they will finally make an agreement this year on the Annapolis process???

I doubt that Israel and the nation's direct Middle Eastern enemies will ever agree to anything. The Bible says no in relation to the time of the end. Exekiel 38 and Psalms 83 are examples of a continued stand off. Only the Lord will solve this problem. Traditional interpretations of Bible prophecy have speculated some sort of "peace" agreement between Israel and the prince that shall come, but the scriptures tell otherwise. It is the Lord Himself who will confirm the covenant of the 70 weeks of years by executing the 70th week for His purposes with Israel. All 6 objectives slated for the nation will be accomplished at the time. The nation is in unbelief at this time, but a believing remnant will emerge during the 70th week. Daniel's vision in chapter 9 is focused upon "his people" national Israel alone during this future period .... not the Body of Christ [the Church].

It is the other prince and his followers who will invade and occupy the nation for 42 months during the last 1,260 days of the 70th week. The idea of a peace ageement is derived from Ezekiel's account of Israel under the Lord's "protection" [the nation would have been eliminated by now if this were not the case] until He allows for Israel's enemies to invade. This condition is not a result of some sort of peace agreement between Israel and the nation's enemies and has to be speculated into the vision. Neither is the covenant in the context of Daniel 9 called a "peace" agreement. This covenant is d