Friday, August 8, 2008
The Psalm 83 E-Chat-ologists
By Bill Salus
Preview some behind the scenes Psalm 83 e-mail excerpts that characterize what today’s popular eschatologists are pondering in these perilous end times. Since we Baby Boomers, or should I say Baby Bloggers, are the likely generation that Daniel 12:4 declared would someday run to and fro for the e-crease of knowledge, I thought to share with you some interesting e-chatter between Dr. David Reagan, Terry James, and myself. Perhaps our e-conversations may stimulate you, as they do us, into a fervent quest of last days’ discovery.
These days, eschatology and evangelism have almost become synonymous terms, as events unfolding in the world generally, and the Middle East specifically, evidence that the return of Christ is ever so near. “Eschatos”, the Greek word for last or final, combined with “ology”, Greek for the study of, is what Dr. David Reagan of Lamb & Lion Ministries, Terry James, author of 19 Bible prophecy books, and co-founder of Rapture Ready, and I, Bill Salus, author of the new release Isralestine, The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East, are ecstatic about.
On July 25, 08 Dr. David Reagan emails me the following:
Bill:
Traditionally, those with a Pre-Trib view have taken the position that the peaceful condition of Israel as described in Ezekiel prior to the Russian invasion will be the product of the peace treaty negotiated by the Antichrist. Thus, the invasion will take place at the beginning of the Tribulation, after the Antichrist has guaranteed the peace of Israel.
Your approach throws a whole new light on the situation. I don’t know of anyone who has played the Psalm 83 card before you. I think what you are proposing is the most biblical scenario, but you must deal with the traditional viewpoint and you must do so in some detail.
Listed below are seven viewpoints made for the timing of the Russian Invasion, as per “Northern Storm Rising” by Ron Rhodes.
1) Before the Rapture and the Tribulation – Tim LaHaye and Joel Rosenberg
2) After the Rapture but Before the Tribulation – Tommy Ice
3) In the First Half or the Middle of the Tribulation --- Walvoord, Pentecost, Ryrie, Hoyt, and Hitchcock
4) At the End of the Tribulation (Armageddon)
5) Between the Tribulation and the Millennium (Interlude)
6) At the Beginning of the Millennium --- Gaebelein
7) At the End of the Millennium --- Non-Evangelicals like Gaffney
Ron Rhodes does not deal with your viewpoint because he did not know about it at the time he wrote the book (published this year).
I’d like to see you prepare a response to the traditional views, especially numbers 1, 2, and 3 above.
Maranatha!
Dave ………………
I promptly replied:
David
I like multiple-choice questions, especially when I have seven to choose from. I will consider your request.
Bill…………
I usually Cc: copy Terry and David when I reply to either of them, so
Terry chimes in on August 5, 2008 with these comments to me:
Bill, A further thought or two...
My primary problem, so far, with the Psalms 83 victory over the Arab confederation taking place pre-Rapture is that it would seem to negate the imminence Jesus absolutely indicated for the Rapture event, in my view (Matt 24: 44,) for example. However, I can consider entertaining a post-Rapture scenario that would change considerably my thoughts on the length of a time frame between the Rapture and the signing of the covenant. Such an event would lengthen that time-span considerably, I should think.
Terry James ………………
My response back to Terry, in part, was this:
Terry,
In Isralestine I present scriptures relative to God's response to the Psalm 83 confederacy that illustrate the Church may not be here for the fulfillment of the event. At no point in Isralestine do I ever predict a pre-rapture fulfillment of Psalm 83. Due to imminence, it is hard to know whether it is pre or post rapture.
Blessings
Bill ………………
Lastly I conclude this article with my recent email activity with Terry James, who is preparing to post a review of my just released book Isralestine, The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East, on raptureready.com, the Internet’s largest Bible prophecy website.
Terry informs me on August 5, 2008:
Bill,
I'm still reading (Isralestine), and considering, before doing the review. You are an excellent writer.
Your friend,
Terry James ………………
Here is my August 6, 2008 e-reply to Terry, which was Cc: to Dr. David Reagan.
Dear Terry, do the three big episodes, Psalm 83, Ezekiel 38 & 39, and Armageddon campaign, happen in the Tribulation period, as some suggest? Or do Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 & 39 occur Pre-Trib as Isralestine suggests? Thirdly, does Psalm 83 occur Pre-Trib, but Ezekiel 38 & 39 and Armageddon occur in the Tribulation?
Regarding the seven year Tribulation, some argue that the Jews won't be burning the Ezekiel 39:9 seven year fuel supply of the enemies weapon cache into the Messianic Kingdom; therefore, they deduce that it must be a pre or beginning Trib event. Some teach that the false covenant, which commences the seven year Tribulation period, brings resolve to the Palestinian (Arab) - Israeli conflict, a conclusion that Isralestine suggests Psalm 83 disputes. Many good arguments exist on both sides of the Tribulational fence for these and other considerations, however as hard as I try to configure all of this, my thoughts keep gravitating back to Ezekiel 37:10, and Psalm 83.
What is the purpose of the exceedingly great army of Ezek. 37:10? Why do the Psalm 83 nations not appear in Ezekiel 38, and vice versa, and why is Babylon not listed in either Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38-39? I think the clincher is what I learned from Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He states, and I concur, that there are two end time judgments against Edom, not one, as some suggest. The first is executed by the Jews (plural) as described in Ezekiel 25:14, and Obadiah 1:18 against “the tents of Edom” (Palestinians) and the Psalm 83 nations, and the other is executed by the Jew, (singular) Jesus Christ at his coming for the faithful Jewish remnant, against the Armageddonites.
If these three major prophetic events occur collectively in the Tribulation period, then this presupposes that the Israeli Defense Forces are sidelined for three and one-half years due to a temporary peace agreement officiated by the Antichrist. Then Mid-Trib the I.D.F. rises and conquers the Psalm 83 Arab populations, who want to destroy the Jewish State, “that the name of Israel be remembered no more”. (Psalm 83:4)
Then immediately thereafter the Gog of Magog invasion occurs, which as per Ezekiel 39:1-6, God divinely stops “WITHOUT” the assistance of the I.D.F, apart from their participation in burying the contaminated dead, as declared in Ezekiel 39:11,14. Lastly then the Antichrist, along with his Armageddonites, come into the glorious land of Isralestine, and attempt Jewish genocide.
A closer look at these big three Goliath events suggest that, should they occur within the Tribulation period, they cannot occur sequentially; they have to be a combined Psalm 83, Ezekiel 38-39, and Armageddon campaign occurring simultaneously. This would mean that the Psalm 83 Arab confederacy, the Ezekiel 38-39 Russian – Iranian led coalition, and the Antichrist assemblage of all the nations of the world, are all “Armageddonites”! If this were the case, then why didn’t Asaph, the psalmist, and Ezekiel the major prophet, say so, by simply listing them in their respective prophecies, or by giving other observable indications.
No, at the Mid-Trib point the Jews are under genocidal assault by the Antichrist, and Jesus told them beforehand in Matthew 24:15-20 to head for the hills of Bozrah - Petra. He didn't say fire up the I.D.F. and go fight the Psalm 83 confederacy. No, the remnant scurries to Edom, modern day Southern Jordan. Why? Because they can, it will likely be put under Israeli sovereignty prior as per Isaiah 11.
He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, then gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, and the [Psalm 83 Arab confederacy] adversaries of Judah shall be cut off. Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. But they [the I.D.F.] shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west. Together they [the I.D.F.] shall plunder the people of the East; [Syria] they [the I.D.F.] shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab, and the people of Ammon [the capitol of Jordan today] shall obey [surrender Jordanian sovereignty] them [to the Jews]. (Isaiah 11:12-14, NKJV)
In the Tribulation period, there will be devastating judgments, and numerous other end time events, thus it just becomes too tight of a fit to cram all of the above into it as well. I’m for pulling out those events, from the Tribulation “catchall closet”, that continue to clutter it up. As you have hopefully discovered by now, in Isralestine I give scriptural support to these bold Pre-Trib Psalm 83, and Ezekiel 38-39 claims.
Posted by AUTHOR / LECTURER at 8:23 AM
7 comments:
Anonymous said...
Bill,
Very Interesting conversation, and thank you for sharing! However, I don't think Psalm 83 can be during the 70th week, and certainly not after wards at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, and in fact it only fits into place, if it happens before the Ezekiel 38-39 conflict. Now whether it is pre or post rapture, I have yet to read an solid theory that you can hang your hat on, one way or another. Actually I don't really think it matters that much, whether we (the Church) see the Psalm 83 prochecies fulfilled, but I do believe there is a pre-Trib rapture, based on what I have studied so far, and I do believe that in order for the special circumstances laid out in earlier chapters of Ezekiel, the Psalm 83 battle is the only thing that fits the bill... sits the table, so to speak. I also believe that it is the Ezekiel 38-39 battle that marks the Anti-Christ's debut on the political scene, and beginning of his meteoric rise to power, as he will claim to have brokered the peace at the end of Ezekiel 39, offering Israel a peace treaty that they will foolishly accept, thus initiating the 70th week events, and the first set Revelation judgments will begin. I truly believe, that we will not see the Anti-Christ, and I don't know if we will even see the beginning of the Ezekiel 38-39 battle, much less any part of the Psalms 83 battle. But, I am not opposed to the idea that the Psalm 83 battle may be the "Last Call" so-to-speak for followers of Yeshua Hammashiach, who should be watching and alert, that our Savior is at the door and turning the knob to let us in. If we should see the Psalm 83 battle, I would definitely say, rapture is about to happen... within a year or two at the most.
I think Jack Kelley has an excellent point, when he points the Rapture as being the final blow that destroys or at least de-claws the U.S. With 40% of our military claiming to be born-again Christians, and 25% of corporate leaders and a significant amount of both state and federal employees, including congress claiming to be born-again Christians, the Rapture even if 5% of those who profess to believe, are all that is raptured up, the effect would be devastating to our country, and be the final nail its coffin... rendering it unable to offer any help to Israel against it's foes, who, up til now have had to face the U.S. if they got too frisky and threaten Israel.
But I am just a humble layman; a bond servant to the Great I Am. I have no fancy PhD to my credit or any other kind of seminary training, so what do I know. I am anxious to go home, but eager to see my Father's hand at work here on this cursed planet. The next few months to 10 years, should make for a very interesting time to be here, though I am not expecting to be here much longer!
Maranatha, my brethren... Maranatha!!! Mark
August 10, 2008 3:31 AM
August 10, 2008 11:39 AM
AUTHOR / LECTURER said...
XYTYX Chronicles said...
Interesting post! May you keep on posting and inspire people.
God bless!
August 10, 2008 4:43 AM
August 10, 2008 11:40 AM
AUTHOR / LECTURER said...
SeanOsborne said...
Bill,
I agree with the eschatological military scenario you present, it is nearly identical to my own interpretations of prophetic military engagements both prior to Daniel's 70th Week and during it.
However, there is one caveat, major or minor in scope, I wish for you to consider. In addition to the Psalm 83 military engagement I also include Isaiah 17 (the bio/chem attack on Israel followed by the nuclear destruction of Damascus and military defeat of Syria and Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon) as an integral part of that military action.
I hold the view that Pslam 83 and Isaiah 17 are pre-cursor events to Ezekiel's War of Gog/Magog. Isaiah 17 literally occurs overnight, and that victory also sidelines all other Muslim Arab nations, West Bank and Gaza, in the Psalm 83 confederation - the result of which is evident in Ezekiel 38/39 with both Sheba and Dedan mimicing the feeble query of Tarshish and all its young lions.
Re-constructed ancient kingdoms map based upon OT Scriptures
I believe the current Russian war against Georgia in the southern Caucasus is a precursor event to both Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83.
In neither Isaiah 17 or Ezekiel 38/39 there any mention of a 3rd Temple or Temple daily sacrifice worship occurring in Jerusalem. Afterwards, yes, absolutely. Scripture is also clear that the Temple will exist by the 3.5 year mark (Abomination of Desolation).
I would submit that construction of the 3rd Temple will likely occur during the 7 years while Israel is burning for fuel the war material of Ezekiel 38/39. The 3rd Temple construction could be completeed just prior Daniels 70th Week and the Signing of the false coventant.
August 10, 2008 8:53 AM
August 10, 2008 11:40 AM
Bill Salus said...
Dear Mark, here is my response to your blog
We are in substantial agreement, and I list below the comments that I strongly agree with you on;
· I don't think Psalm 83 can be during the 70th week.
· I am not opposed to the idea that the Psalm 83 battle may be the "Last Call" so-to-speak for followers of Yeshua Hammashiach, who should be watching and alert, that our Savior is at the door and turning the knob to let us in
· I would definitely say, rapture is about to happen.
· I am anxious to go home, but eager to see my Father's hand at work here on this cursed planet. The next few months to 10 years, should make for a very interesting time to be here
Mark, I found your entire blog well studied, and wisely spoken. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day (of Christ’s return) approaching.” (Hebrews 10:23-25)
Blessings from Isralestine
Bill Salus
Dear X Y T Y X Chronicles Thank you for your encouraging blog, andwhat does X Y T Y X stand for?
Blessings from N I S T A R E S E I L
Go ahead and rearrange the letters and you will see where the blessings come from
Bill Salus
Dear Sean Osborne
Isaiah 17:1, could find fulfillment within the context of the Psalm 83 Arab – Israeli War, however I have not found any specific scriptures that make it obvious. I find this connecting correlating passage interesting –“Against Damascus. “Hamath and Arpad are shamed, For they have heard bad news. They are fainthearted; There is trouble on the sea; It cannot be quiet Damascus has grown feeble; She turns to flee, And fear has seized her. Anguish and sorrows have taken her like a woman in labor. Why is the city of praise not deserted, the city of My joy? Therefore her young men shall fall in her streets, And all the men of war shall be cut off in that day,” says the LORD of hosts. “I will kindle a fire in the wall of Damascus, And it shall consume the palaces of Ben-Hadad.” (Jeremiah 49:23-27, NKJV)
This implies that there is trouble on the sea, which literally would likely mean the Mediterranean Sea, or idiomatically the Gentile nations. I prefer the Mediterranean take. Presently I believe three U.S. fleets are stationed in the Mediterranean Sea off of the coast of Israel, and presently an Armada of U.S., French, and U.K. ships are en route to the Persian Gulf as I blog to you.
Damascus could ultimately be taken out from Israel in Psalm 83, from Israel prior to Psalm 83, or from a Gentile nation, or nations, of which I just stated, are already in, or headed to the Middle East. Keep your favorite news channels on; it looks like Damascus may soon cease to be a city, a ruinous heap. Interestingly every known Middle East terrorist group, has a headquarters in Damascus. This makes Damascus a highly strategic target.
Blessings from Isralestine
Bill Salus
August 10, 2008 12:41 PM
AUTHOR / LECTURER said...
There are any number of scenarios that could play themselves out in relation to how these prophecies are going to play out. Personally, I don't worry myself a great deal with trying to figure out their order. Most of the time I'm content simply knowing that they will occur as prophesied but there are other times, when like most everyone else, I find myself trying to sort it all out.
The future is going to prove most interesting for us to observe, in my opinion, especially if the Rapture of the Church is any significant period of time away.
In Christ,
Mike
www.rapturealert.com
August 10, 2008 4:16 PM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
reply to seanosborne:
Great comments! Actually, the Book of Isaiah is like a condensed version of the Bible, so it is very possible that Isaiah 16 & 17 and Psalm 83 are referencing the same conflict, and in fact Isaiah 17 may be just focus on Syria's plight of what will happen during the Psalm 83 battle, as I truly see the likelihood that Damascus will be totally destroyed as a result of it biological and chemical weapons they currently have, as well as Hezbollah. As with those kinds of weapons in their arsenal, I can't feature them not using them on Israel, during the Psalm 83 conflict, when things start really rolling, and I can't feature Israel holding back it's nukes at that point. Syria, seems to be the top dog leading this hunt, so when Damascus is vaporized, it will demonstrate the resolve of Israel, and the lengths to which it is willing to go, to protect itself.
Ezekiel 39:11-16 definitely describe the aftermath of some sort of WMD - nuclear, chemical or biological that has been used, as the clean up procedure is exactly what NBC de-contamination procedures are. So with that in mind, Isaiah 17 could be referring to the Ezekiel 38-39 battle. We always assume that Israel will be the one that destroys Damascus, but what if it is merely collateral damage? When the Psalm 83 battle concludes I wouldn't be surprised to see Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, part of Saudi Arabia, and part of Egypt, all be part of the New and Improved Israel. If that is the case, then Damascus could in fact be attacked and destroyed by Israel's enemies - Russia or Iran or other allies. There is no doubt based on Ezekiel 39, that the Ezekiel battle will be one of WMD's... fired at Israel, so it could be feasible to see Damascus, now part of Israel, as being collateral damage, in this case!
As for the 3rd Temple, as you well know, there are efforts going on right now to rebuild it. If the temple is built before the Psalm 83 battle, I think it will be more of historical or museum kinda of thing at first (if in fact it is built before or just after the Psalm 83 battle), with perhaps a few of the really hard-core Orthodox Jew will return to offering sacrificing, but it won't be until after the Father's direct intervention and victory over Israel's enemies in Ezekiel 38-39 that the majority of Israelis will return to the sacrificial style of worship. Setting the stage for the Anti-Christ's Abomination of Desolation being place in the temple, 3.5 years into the 70th week and the suspension of the sacrifices to the Father.
Anyway, you comments were great and shows a use of the full counsel of the Word. I, myself, am involved in a wonderful study of the Book of Isaiah, which should be available on CD this December, if not earlier at www.lifeonthehill.org. Bob Warren is the teacher there, and gives a very straight forward, but in-depth study of the scriptures. He is good friends with and counsels with Dr. Aronld Fruchtenbaum. If you love the Word and the study of it, I think you will find the courses on www.lifeonthehill.org, www.gracethrufaith (Jack Kelley's web site) or www.ariel.org (Dr. Fruchtenbaum's web site) full of interesting and in-depth studies of eschatology and other Bible materials. Thanks for posting! Mark
August 10, 2008 6:02 PM
August 11, 2008 7:40 AM
Paul Kocourek said...
Hi, thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth in the discussion. I'm a Pre-Tribber and have studied eschatology since I trusted the Lord back in Nov '72. I have bought and read Isralestine. Eze 39 tells us that God will send fire on them that dwell carelessly in the coastlands. I used my Strong's to look up "coastlands" and every place that word is used. My study led me to the conclusion that "coastlands" referred to the farthest reaches of the world away from Israel. Given that God is sending fire upon Magog and the "coastlands", it has led me to conclude that this might be a description of a nuclear exchange between Russia and the USA. The collateral damage from such an exchange would be destruction on a mega-scale with massive loss of life. It occurred to me that there is a place inside the Trib where this could be identified, and that is the Second Seal of Rev 6, where the rider on the red horse is given a "great sword", symbol of warfare and bloodshed, to take peace from the Earth. Most of the surplus food, such as grain, comes from the USA and Canada. If a nuclear exchange occurred, then not only would there be terrible damage to the world's ecosystem, but that food surplus would also be gone, leading to massive famine, which is the Third Seal in Rev 6. By the time we hit the Fourth Seal, we see death on an incredible scale: 1/4th of the world is slain from the sword, famine, and pestilence. Taken literally, at a current world population of over 6 billion, then we can expect 1-1/5 BILLION deaths, more than all the combined casualties from all the wars Man has ever fought!
I find it hard to envision two such calamities, ie a Gog-Magog nuclear exchange prior to the Trib, and then another such at the beginning of the Trib at the Second Seal, so I feel that the Second Seal is where the Eze 38-39 Gog-Magog battle occurs.
As for Psalm 83, it's hard to say just when that might happen. It depends on whether there is any significant amount of time between the Rapture and the start of the Trib period. I have been of the thought that there is little, if any, time between the two, so I am thinking the Ps 83 will likely pccur before the Rapture and Trib period. After all, we have seen the fulfillment of Eze 37 prior to the Rapture when Israel came back to the Land in May 1948, and have seen other battles in 1956, 1967, and 1973. We may well see the Ps 83 war as well.
Thanks to Bill for such great work.
August 16, 2008 5:57 AM
The following was my comment to Bill that I e-mailed
Benny Balerio
Bill,
I believe that Psalms 83 could be that of Isaiah 17;1...,Which I believe may happen after the rapture in an almost back to back fashion. The reason that I suspect that the rapture may happen first, is that I am reminded of the story of Abraham and Sodom, or you could say the story of Lot.I believe that there are a lot of christians in Damascus.Considering the current events,I have noticed it's timing with the approaching Jewish Holiday.."Rosh Hashanna".There is yet the question of Ezekial 38.
After the rapture and Isaiah 17;1....a persuado peace treaty that is now current, may pick up from where it was interrupted by the rapture and Isaiah 17;1....and then succeed, thus setting up required conditions for Ezekial 38...In Joel 3;2...are the words..."
"They have also divided up my land"...which seems to be spoken in past tense,indicating that the peace negotiations did succeed.Thus the scripture of..."When they cry Peace and Safety, then sudden destruction will prevail.I do believe that Ezekial 38 is pre-trib,....but I have a problem with it.It takes 7 years to burn the weapons, which indicates that Ezekial 38 happens 3 1/2 years before Daniels 70th week.And of course, we believe that the rapture happens prior to Ezekial 38.My problem indicates that the Bride would be in heaven 10 1 1/2 years and not 7,..and scriptures point out the we are in heaven only 7 years before we come back with the Lord.I believe that it will take three global shocks to break any resistance to a one world government.That would be the Rapture,Isaiah 17;1,and Ezekial 38.
It is the Lord himself that wipes out russia and the Islamic nations involved.The Jews from the four corners of the earth had just wittnessed the Creator of the Universe wipe out Israels enemies and begin the mass exodus to Israel with one desire in their heart,.....and that is to build the third temple unto the Lord God.
With Russia and the Islamic armies temporarily destroyed,...the arab nations will not object to a third temple.It is hard to imagine another year passing by without Isaiah 17;1 coming to pass this year.The Lord said that, that Day would not come upon us as a thief.
God Bless to you all.
............................................................benny
......................................................benny