By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. Heb 11:24-26




Between the fall of Adam and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, how were people's sins atoned for? Was there true salvation as we know it in NT times? Also, if the Law doesn't save, how did it 'work' for OT believers? Were they trusting in Messiah and didn't know it?















In both eras God's people were saved by grace alone. God is holy, and thus, fallen humanity was never saved by observing the Law. In both the Old and New Testament era God's standard for us remains the same: perfect righteousness, so at all times we would have to keep the Law perfectly to earn our own redemption and win God's acceptance. The Law is therefore, not meant to save but rather strip us of all hope of looking to self for salvation, a tutor to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:24) for it condemns each of us exposing the deep roots of our sinful nature and thus our desperate need for a Savior. But Christ alone fulfilled all righteousness (Matt 3:15), a sinless savior who died and counts His people free from the condemnation of the Law.

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:19-20

"But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." Gal 3:22

The same absolute standard of righteousness was just as true under the Old Covenant as it is now. Dispensationalism, a recent system of theology which has been popular for the last century or so, has taken the Bible, and rather than seeing it as an integrated whole (a unified unfolding of redemptive history), has taught the Scripture as if God has different plans and different futures for the peoples in the various eras of history. But this is clearly not the case. God has one covenant of grace, which was promised right after the fall in Genesis 3:15 proclaiming that the seed of the woman would crush the seed of the serpent.

This same promise of blessing was again specifically enacted through Abraham and his seed (Gen 12, 15, 17) which includes people from all nations (Gen 12:3). God established His covenant with Him, not based on anything He saw in him since Abraham and his family are recorded as being idolaters. The promise was based instead on God's love and mercy alone. God said to Israel, "you will be my people and I will be your God" which is covenant language. From the beginning God reveals Himself as establishing a covenant with particular people of His choosing. We are, thus, part of a religion of redemption, i.e. one which promises salvation from our predicament as sinners by the payment of a price. This is in contrast to religions of law, which look to man to bring about this desirable state of affairs by his own efforts or choices. God bringing up the Israelites up out of the bondage of Egypt in the Exodus is a beautiful picture of our release from our bondage from sin. The people of Israel could not just come out if they so chose. No, it took the supernatural exertion of God to bring them out. Likewise our bondage to sin must be broken by God's supernatural work of regeneration which makes us willing since the desire to please God springs from a new heart.


If you recall, just before Moses read the Ten Commandments, He reminds them of God's covenant with them. "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt." The relationship is established on His love for Abraham and an act of redemption which He has already accomplished on their behalf. Now, as a result, He calls them together to give them His Law. Abraham, the progenitor of the Jews was chosen by God and the promise made prior to his being circumcized. This covenant of grace insured his spiritual seed of their part in the work of redemption to be accomplished in the Messiah. Furthermore, when the Law was established with Moses and the Israelites, it included the sacrifices of sheep and oxen to daily remind them of sin. All of them, from young to old, needed their sins atoned for. The author of Hebrews tells us that the blood of sheep and bulls did not take away their sin. That is why the sacrifices had to be constantly repeated - to show them that they were inadequate in themselves.
















What was its purpose then? These sacrifices only pointed toward the once for all final sacrifice to come, the Lamb without blemish or defect. They were but shadows, types of the substance and reality to come. The Jews of the Old Testament, then, were actually trusting in the Messiah and His work even though many of the details remained hidden from them. Atonement is a constant theme to be found everywhere in the Old Testament. But when Jesus came their hope of the ages was finally fulfilled. The long promised Messiah, the lamb who was to take away the sins of the world ... and historically that is why God removed the Temple in Jerusalem shortly after (70 A.D.) His resurrection made it's sacrifices of atonement no longer necessary. Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice was once for all, covering the sins of His people for all time. And the following verse gives us an indication of the trans-historical nature of His sacrifice:

"... to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13:8
(also see John 6:39; Hebrews 13:20)

As the verse indicates, there is a clear element of timelessness in Christ's death, Therefore, the forgiveness purchased by Christ for His people at his death was already efficacious to the saints which existed prior to his coming. Both Moses and Elijah also considered his death to be of great personal importance as this was their main topic of conversation when they visited him at the transfiguration:

"And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem." Luke 9:30, 31

Again in the New Testament Paul indicates that Abraham had the gospel preached to him:

"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "[Gen 12:3] ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." Galatians 3:8 (emphasis mine)

Although much of the gospel perhaps remained a mystery to the Jews, they saw it from afar (Heb 11) and evidently received enough for the Holy Spirit to apply toward their regeneration, apart from works of the Law. Even Jesus in the Gospel of John says "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." John 8:56







Aparently the Spiritual Jews of the first century deeply understood the implications and necessity of a Messiah for when Jesus is presented in the temple there was a man called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel so that when he saw Jesus he took him in his arms and praised God, saying:

"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."(Luke 2:29-32)

He then said: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too." With these things in mind we begin to view redemptive history like the blossoming of a flower, an organic unfolding - from the bud slowly opening to full blossom.





Truth is always truth but their is an flowering of redemption from infancy to maturity as it is revealed in history. Instead of viewing the Old Testament as a completely seperate dispensation we now see that it was a time in revelation when we were but children having the law to discipline us but when the fulness of time came the child no longer needs guardians:

"But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor....he [a child] is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
(Gal 3:25; 4:3-5)

It was hazy and becomes more clear. Look as the promise to Abraham - the Gentiles are promised to be a part of his seed one day. Is says, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU" And in Galatians we see the fulfillment of this:

"...in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."Gal 3:14
"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." Gal 3:29

This means that the church did not start at Pentecost, but rather consists of the whole number of the elect, which were purchased for God with Christ's blood from [Dan 3:4; 5:19; Rev 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15] every tribe and tongue and people and nation. This includes all true believers for all time, both believers in the New Testament age and believers in the Old Testament age as well. Romans 11 describes our (N.T. Saints) relationship with Israel as organic, likening it to tree branches being grafted in but having the same root. We all sprung from the same spiritual seed, Christ being the root, and the eternal covenant made with the Father (John 6:37,39, 44, 63-65; 17:9) carried out in history through Abraham and fulfilled in Christ. The progressive unfolding nature of the covenants with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David laid the covenantal groundwork for the culmination of God's redemptive work in His new covenant in Christ.

The nation of Israel shares a primary role in God's self-revelation in redemptive history. It is the revelation unfolding through the Old Testament that provides the crucial framework for understanding God's complete self-revelation through Jesus Christ.








Pentecost, was the eschatological hope of the Jews fulfilled where the Spirit is poured out on both Jew and Gentile. The dividing wall and barrier of hostility was broken down ... but God did not have a different plan or way of saving people in Old and New Testaments. It has always been by grace alone than no man may boast. There has always been the concept of a penal substitution and redemption for sinners. With all the confusion introduced by poor exegesis in recent times we merely need to simply go back to the Scriptures an understand that their true nature is one of organic unity. It was not as if a holy God lowered His standard for the people of the Old Testament. One sin would forever damn them, unless, like us, God has mercy on them and provides redemption for them. There was no time when man could attain heaven by his own efforts, except, of course, for the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who alone fulfilled the covenant from our side. He sinlessly obeyed God's holy Law and God was well pleased with Him. God looks at Him and counts us free. He is our righteousness as God's elect are attributed Christ's satisfaction by faith.Where Adam failed to keep God's covenant, Jesus succeeded. All glory to God alone for our redemption for which we could not or would not lift a finger for on our own. Our only hope is in the Messiah who crushed the head of the serpent, which was promised after the fall.

To conclude, Old Testament saints were clearly saved the same way the New Testament saints were, by grace alone, through faith alone, in to person and work of Christ alone, as revealed in the Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone. .

For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account" (Rom. 4:3-8).

All saints of all time have their hope in Him alone for their redemption. Christ is the center of history and in this light, we should read and interpret both Old and New Testaments.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/otsaints.html

Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Yes!
Jehovah is Jesus


Jehovah Jesus Psalm 102:25,
"Of old Thou didst found the earth; and the heavens are the work of Thy hands. Heb. 1:10,
"And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands"
Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance." Phil. 2:10-11,
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Deut. 10:17,
"For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality, nor take a bribe." Rev. 17:14,
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." John 1:49,
"Nathanael answered Him, 'Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.'" Rev. 22:12-13,
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


Psalm 130:7-8,
"O Israel, hope in the Lord; for with the Lord there is lovingkindness, and with Him is abundant redemption. ⁸ And He will redeem Israel from all his iniquities." Titus 2:14,
"who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."
Zech. 12:10,
"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.
Rev. 1:7,
"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen." Joel 2:32,
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls." Rom. 10:13 ,
"for 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

(All Scripture quotes are taken from the NASB.)
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jehovah_is_Jesus.htm




hen Jesus Christ returns in Judgment at Armageddon, He is described as being "clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His Name is called The Word of God" (Revelation 19:13). One of Jesus' many Names is The Word. "And The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His Glory, the Glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father,) full of Grace and Truth" (John 1:14). In John 1:1, we read more about The Word. "In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD." [Read "The Word of God" ---New Window, for an in-depth application of the Christian's relationship with that One Person Whose "Name is called The Word of God" (Revelation 19:13).] Jesus Christ, as God, can be and is both Creator (i.e., "By Him all things consist" [Colossians 1:17]) and Created (i.e., "God was manifest in the flesh" [1Timothy 3:16]).

"It is significant that the LORD Jesus is so confident of His divinity that He would label Himself as the 'Beginning of the Creation of God'. This identifies the LORD Jesus as 'begotten of the Father in a manner inconceivable and inexpressible by men, before any creatures were in being' (from John Gill's comments on Colossians 1:15)-- as unique as only God can be. '15 Who [Jesus] is the Image of the Invisible God, the Firstborn of Every Creature: 16 For by Him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in Earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him' (Colossians 1:15-16)." -excerpt from our "Commentary on the Book of Revelation" ---New Window, Chapter 3 ---New Window (verse 14). The LORD Jesus Himself proclaimed, "I and My Father are One. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him" (John 10:30-31). Why did the Jews want to kill Jesus? Because they did understand that the coming Christ, the Father's Son, would be God Himself. "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because He not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself EQUAL with God" (John 5:18).

Notice-- "63 The high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure Thee by the living God, that Thou tell us whether Thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken BLASPHEMY; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard His BLASPHEMY. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death" (Matthew 26:63-66).

You see, blasphemy was a crime worthy of death. "He that blasphemeth the Name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the Name of the LORD, shall be put to death" (Leviticus 24:16). They said Jesus' blasphemy was that He made Himself out to be God. "The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God" (John 19:7).

They would have had a good point, except for one thing-- Jesus REALLY WAS their long-awaited Messiah. Jesus really was Christ the Anointed One. They agreed that The Son, when He finally did come, would be God Himself, but they just didn't believe this "man" was The Son. "The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33). Jesus "was in the World, and the World was made by Him, and the World knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not" (John 1:10-11).




Jesus Christ, The Word of God, prophesied of Himself in Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". Knowing that the "Child" is infallibly called "The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father", you must either accept by faith the Truth of His Own Word, or deny that The Son can be "EQUAL" with The Father, thus calling Him a liar. Christians walk by faith. If He said it-- believe it. Don't question "how?". He's God-- Immutable, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent.

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me HATH SEEN the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?... he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me" (John 14:9; John 12:45).

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto Me in Heaven and in Earth" (Matthew 28:18).

"Who being the brightness of His Glory, and the EXPRESS image of His Person, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty On High" (Hebrews 1:3).

C. H. Spurgeon called Him, "Jehovah Jesus."

"The Reason for Singing

'The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; He will save, He will rejoice over thee with joy; He will rest in his love, He will joy over thee with singing' (Zephaniah 3:17).

What a Word is this! Jehovah God in the center of His people in all the majesty of His power! This presence alone suffices to inspire us with peace and hope. Treasures of boundless might are stored in our Jehovah, and He dwells in His church; therefore may His people shout for joy.

We not only have His presence, but He is engaged upon His choice work of salvation. 'He will save.' He is always saving: He takes His name of Jesus from it. Let us not fear any danger, for He is mighty to save.

Nor is this all. He abides evermore the same, He saves, He finds rest in loving, He will not cease to love. His love gives Him joy. He even finds a theme for song in His beloved. This is exceedingly wonderful. When God wrought creation He did not sing but simply said, 'It is very good'; but when He came to redemption, then the sacred Trinity felt a joy to be expressed in song. Think of it, and be astonished! Jehovah Jesus sings a marriage song over His chosen bride. She is to Him His love, His joy, His rest, His song. O LORD Jesus, by Thine immeasurable love to us teach us to love Thee, to rejoice in Thee, and to sing unto Thee our life-psalm."

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


OT Saints were NOT in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit ,,,,,,,,in the same way as NT Saints are.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



the OT Saints didn't know what we NT Saints know



1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.




the Physical picture-stories in the OT were sometimes a mystery to OT Saints,,,,,,,,,but now, we NT Saints understand them, we learn from them, and our faith is strengthened.

the parallels, foreshadows, types and anti-types, symbolisms,,,,,,,,in the Bible are fantastic!





Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:


physical cicumcision was required in OT..........but means nothing in NT

Spiritual circumcision is REQUIRED in NT,,,,,,,,,without it,,,,,,,you're not saved

the physical is a picture-story of the spiritual





Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:



physical rest on saturday was required in ot,,,,,,,,,but is not required in NT

in NT, the NT version of sabbath is........we rest from Spiritual unrest (sin, shame, rebellion, guilt, alienation from god , separation, un-fulfillment, meaninglessness, "under the sun, all is vanity", etc)

in the NT, we enjoy this SPIRITUAL REST ..........7 days per week...........every day is a HOLY DAY,,,,,,,,,and very meal is a FEAST..........(JUST LIKE THE MARINE CORPS)









Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I have been struggling with this for some time and these post have shed light to some of my searching.

I still have a lot of question, but this sheds light to my studies.

I see us all saved by faith in Jesus, whether we are looking back to His finish work on the cross or as they did looking forward to His redeptive work. It is faith in Jesus!

The work of the Holy Spirit...I am still working on this understanding. The Holy Spirit in us to empower us for our calling is the difference, right? The Old Testament believers only a few had the power of God on them, right?

I was taught dispensations, but some things just do not add up with it. I still have a lot to learn!

Great thread!
While the parallels, foreshadows, types and anti-types, symbolisms in the Bible are indeed fantastic, there is a largely unmined wealth of wisdom and knowledge when we study the Old Testament in its context without first trying to draw out all the possible types and shadows. The types and shadows should only be capitalized on after the clear and surface meanings of the old testament are understood. This is the way, through the Holy Spirit, that the authors of the New Testament came to their revelations in the old testament. This is a way to prevent much error also, following God's order.

I also seem to get a lot of confirmation from the Old in relation to the New, with the types and shadow of things.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.


the EVERLASTING COVENANT with abraham is still in full force today...........but the LAW OF MOSES has reached the "vanishing point" 1900 years ago.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

what was the EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH ABRAHAM?............God promised that "in Abraham shall all families of the earth be blessed. "...........this was fulfilled in Christ Jesus, the Savior of the world...........this EVERLASTING COVENANT is being fulfilled TODAY!...AND FOREVER!


Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.




Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
how did Abe get saved?.........he believed God.
how do NT people get saved?...........we believe God.

belief includes repentance, obedience, prayer, worship, witnessing, preaching, works, etc

if you never obeyed the bible,,,,,,,,,then, you never believed it

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace
1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Luke 12:32 Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. Romans 14:5,6


Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant I Kings 8:56


Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Matthew 11:29


Hebrews 4:9-11


9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.



why does He REQUIRE that i LOVE Him with all my STRENGTH?...........is that for doing GOOD WORKS?




Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.



if BELIEF is all that is necessary.........and BELIEF does not include obedience,,,,,,,,,then, why does it say that I MUST LOVE?

is it belief plus love?...........or belief only?

is it belief, love and works?...........or belief only?

is it belief, repentance, love, plus works?..........or is it belief only?

the Truth is:

belief includes obedience, repentance, works, love, etc

if you never obeyed,,,,,,,,,then, you never believed.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Matthew 11:29

Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

--- 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Christ's yoke is easy, His burden is light.............but, NT Saints are zealous to do ggod works............so, we know that Christ was speaking of SPIRITUAL YOKE AND BURDEN

christians do much hard physical work (like preaching, feeding the hungry, etc),,,,,,,,,but their SPIRITUAL BURDEN is light,,,,,,,because we have been redeemed!

we are no longer plagued/burdened by dread, guilt, shame, sin, spiritual un-rest

we have peace of heart and mind!............Peace with God!

PTL!

Thanks !


Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me.
Psalm 40:7

Then said I, Lo, I come in the volume of the book it is written of me, to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:7

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:27

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luke 24:44


Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39



Hebrews 1:1,2,3
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:





Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am.
John 8:58

ויאמר אליהם על כן כל סופר המלמד למלכות השמים דומה לאיש בעל הבית המוציא מאוצרו חדשות וישנות׃

And Jesus said to them, "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old. Matthew 13:52 Hebrew literal trans.

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. Matthew 13:52 KJV

"When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!' Luke 15:9

Enjoy!

(copied from post # 1)
quote:
This same promise of blessing was again specifically enacted through Abraham and his seed (Gen 12, 15, 17) which includes people from all nations (Gen 12:3). God established His covenant with Him, not based on anything He saw in him since Abraham and his family are recorded as being idolaters.
unquote

God chose Abe because Abe BELIEVED GOD.............ABE was not an idolater.............Abe did not believe idols, Abe believed God.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

God rejected the un-believers,,,,,,,and God rejected the idolaters,,,,,,,,,and God justifed the believers.

Calvinism is wrong.

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. Genesis 22:12




For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3

I am absolutely no preterist. But they frequently argue that the whole purpose of the old covenant and the Abrahamic covenant was to have a people that would be the medium for the Messiah to come. Now that he has come and accomplished the work of the cross, God's purpose for them as a distinct people is over with, they say. They use this verse to stress their point:
"Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ." Gal 3:16.

This, they say, is proof that the promise was to Jesus alone, not the rest of the Jews. It may be applicable to the Jews of faith, they say. But this is also applicable to Gentiles of faith just the same, they say. The Jew has no special role different than the gentile, they say. This means that the promises of the land, etc, were past and now were brought to their end in the person of Messiah.

Now, I do not have those conclusions. How might I prove what is true to a preterist with those arguments? Aside from Bible prophecies yet unfulfilled, how might one show that the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect to the Jewish people who do not currently believe?

of course you do, that is the purpose of God's truth


Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Let the word of God be true and every man a liar.

we have

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

the OT people had to do the same as the NT people.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

there is no such thing one law or Faith for the OT and one for the NT.

Paul said


Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

are these NT folks or OT folks.

now lets see what Paul say concerning these Ot folks.

39: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Paul said they(OT) without us (NT) will not be made perfect.

the Ot folks along with the NT folks will be saved at the same time..

In NT and OT, salvation is through faith alone............but
faith includes works, worship, love, obedience, etc

works are not the purchase price of salavtion............the death of christ is the purchase price

we are not saved through works...........we are saved through faith alone.

but faith without works is dead...........read James.

if we have not love,,,,,,,,,,we are not worthy of Christ

so, faith without works and love and obedience is impossible..........it never happens

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3

But that is not the WHOLE story. Dennis gave the WHOLE counsel above.

Here is the WHOLE story with regard to Abraham:

James 2

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


In His Love,
Suzanne

There are eternal consequences for misunderstanding this doctrine ...
read the whole article from top to bottom when one has time.


Faith & Works: Paul vs. James

One of the thorniest textual problems any Christian can face is the apparent contradiction between Paul and James. Is justification by faith, as Paul claims, or by works, as James seems to say? This problem actually has a very simple solution.

For some Christians, one of the thorniest problems in the Bible is the apparent contradiction between Paul and James. It's enough to make anyone committed to complete inerrancy wither.

In Romans, 5:1-2, Paul writes, "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."

James seems to say just the opposite, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." This appears to be a first rate contradiction.

I have seen people twist themselves into theological pretzels trying to deal with this problem. There are a few unresolved conflicts in the Bible, but this is not one of them.

What shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Paul makes two points here. First, if Abraham is justified by works, if salvation is his personal accomplishment, dependent on his effort alone, then he can brag about it. Second, any system of works makes God indebted to the one who qualifies. Salvation is not a gift, but a wage paid to the one who earns it.

Then Paul quotes Genesis 15:6 to prove that neither is the case: "Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."


Two different terms used to illustrate Abraham's salvation. The first is "reckoned," and the second is "justified." As you will see, these are two aspects of a single act of redemption.

The word "reckoned" is a term that emphasizes an action God takes on behalf of poor sinners. To "reckon" means "to credit to the account of." God responds to our spiritual poverty with the abundant gift of righteousness. He places it into our empty bank accounts, under our names. In Paul's words, "Though [Jesus] was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich."

This transaction took place early in Abraham's life. We read in Genesis 15:6, "Then he [Abraham] believed in the Lord and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." Paul reminds us that Abraham "grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore also it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

From that time on God saw not Abraham's spiritual poverty, but his wealth. Abraham's moral bank account was rich with God's righteousness.

"Justification," our second term, is the result of this transaction. It means "to declare free of blame; to absolve." Because God reckons righteousness to us, He declares us free from guilt, absolved, and pardoned. Reckoning, the action, leads to justification, the result. Therefore, salvation is a result of justification, which comes by faith.


Salvation must come from God and not ourselves for one very good reason: Our bank accounts are truly empty. Once, while I was discussing God's qualifications for heaven with a waitress, she said, "God will approve of me."

"How do you know that?" I asked.

The question was a pivotal one, but she'd never considered it. After a long, awkward silence she offered feebly, "Well, I don't take drugs."

"That's good, but I think God is concerned about more than that," I countered. "Have you heard of the Ten Commandments?" I began to list them.

1) Have you ever given allegiance to anything else above God in your life?
2) Have you ever used any thing as an object of worship or veneration?
3) Have you ever used God's name in a vain or vulgar fashion?
4) Have you consistently honored God by worshipping Him on a regular basis?
5) Have you ever disobeyed or dishonored your parents?
6) Have you ever murdered anyone? (Jesus said in Matthew 5:22 that if you're merely angry with a brother, you violate this principle).
7) Have you ever had sex with someone other than your spouse? (Jesus said that if you look upon someone and entertain the thought, you're guilty of sin here. )
8) Have you ever taken something that was not yours?
9) Have you ever told an untruth about someone else?
10) Have you ever desired to have something that was not yours?

We'd only gotten through two before she began to wilt. "Now you're making me feel guilty," she complained. That's the point. We are guilty, each one of us. This is God's Law. These are God's requirements. Yet is there anyone who doesn't consistently violate every one?

Any attempt to whittle down God's requirements to make them easier is doomed. The Pharisees tried this, asking Jesus which commandment was the foremost of all. Jesus answered, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Which of us does not violate each command hundreds of times a day?


We want to compare ourselves to other people, but that doesn't work. We may fancy ourselves law-abiding citizens, but the truth is we're a lot more like Hitler than like Jesus Christ, and His righteousness is the standard.

Saved by works? The Law gives us no hope because it has a built-in defeater to any attempt at justification by works: The Law demands perfection.

"Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law" (Galatians 5:3).

James agrees. He writes, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all" (James 2:10).

In God's view, there are only two kinds of people: innocent and guilty. One violation of the Law, one sin, makes you guilty. This is enough to silence the most noble mortal: "…that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God" (Romans 3:19).

"The Scripture," Paul concludes, "has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe" (Galatians 3:22).

There is only one hope: God's mercy. The Scripture is replete with this teaching. "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy" (Titus 3:5). "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace" (Romans 10:6). "If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly" (Galatians 2:21).

That's why Paul states clearly, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies [absolves] the ungodly, his faith is reckoned [credited] as righteousness" (Romans 4:5).

But we still have a problem. Why does James seem to contradict Paul by saying we're justified by works and not by faith alone? He even quotes Abraham for proof of his point, just as Paul did.


Whenever one encounters an apparent contradiction, it's good to keep in mind a basic rule: Always first explore the possibility of a reconciliation between the two. Not all statements that appear to contradict actually do.

Take the two statements "Napoleon was a very big man" and "Napoleon was not a big man; he was a small man." At first glance, these two sentences appear contradictory. The word "big" is equivocal, though. It can mean two different things. Napoleon was a big man regarding his impact in history, but was small in physical size.

Consult any dictionary and you'll discover that virtually every word has more than one meaning. The word "peace" could mean cessation of hostility between two parties. When a war is over and the fighting stops, there's peace. Romans 5:1 carries this sense: "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Peace" could also refer to peace of mind, a freedom from anxiety or worry. This is what Paul had in mind when he promised that, after prayer, "the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, shall guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." Proper interpretation of any passage depends on a clear understanding of which meaning is in view.



The word "justify" is no different. It has two meanings, not just one. In addition to "absolve, declare free of blame," it can also mean "to demonstrate or prove to be just, right or valid; to show to be well founded." In the case of salvation, the first is the cause; the second is the effect.

This second definition is what is usually in view when we use the word "justify" in English. "Justify your position," we say. We're asking for evidence; we want proof.

The Bible frequently uses this sense of the word, too. Jesus taught that a person's true nature will be evident in his conduct:

The good man out of his good treasure brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth what is evil. And I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

Jesus teaches here that the man with good treasure brings forth good fruit, which "justifies" him. This external display demonstrates the quality of the man within. This is not justification in the sense of salvation. It doesn't save him but shows that he is already saved. One's words don't absolve him (first definition). Rather, they bear testimony of the inner man (second definition).


Now we face a key question. Which definition did James have in mind? How do we know when he uses the word "justify," that James is not referring to salvation–as Paul clearly is–but rather is pointing to the proof of salvation?

This is remarkably simple to determine. The cause must come before the effect. Salvation must come first, before it can be evidenced in a changed life.

When Paul makes his case for justification by faith, he cites the beginning of Abraham's walk with God in Genesis 15:5-6: "And He took him outside and said, 'Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.' Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."

The justification James has in mind comes much later in Abraham's life, recorded in Genesis 22:12: "And he said, 'Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.'" (God was also assuring Abraham, that Abraham was a true believer... perhaps Abraham was also testing God to see if He would allow him to go through with it)


Paul and James are citing two different times in Abraham's life, events separated by 25 years. They can't be referring to the same thing.

The works of Abraham that James mentions were a result of justification which came by faith a quarter of a century earlier. Abraham was not being saved again. Rather, he was showing evidence of his salvation. He was being confirmed in the justification by faith that had already been accomplished years before.

Abraham's faith was no passive, intellectual exercise. He proved his faith to God. The words of the text show this to be true: "Now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me." God witnessed Abraham's faith first-hand, as it were. It was demonstrated. That's why James concludes, "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'"

James speaks to the man who is all talk and no action. His simple message is that true salvation always proves itself. That's why he asks, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" The apostle John echoes the same sentiment: "The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him."


James and Paul go together. Like two sides of the same coin, they don't conflict with each other; they complement each other. Both teach us something vital. Paul looks at what goes on internally; James talks about the external results. Paul says, "We're saved by faith." James says, "This is what saving faith looks like."
My own interpretive paraphrase captures the sense of it:

(21) Consider Abraham for a minute (remember him, the father of true faith?). His life is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He demonstrated to everyone the content of his faith when he obeyed God by offering up Isaac on the altar. (22) His action was a clear, visible demonstration to us that his faith was not a bunch of words. To him, faith and works went hand in hand; they were two sides of the same coin. The exercise of one caused the other to grow. (23) Years before, God had declared Abraham righteous because of his faith ("And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" Genesis 15:6). Abraham's obedience regarding Isaac was visible proof that God's earlier declaration of his faith was accurate and well deserved. Abraham's actions fulfilled God's word, demonstrating his friendship with God.

The entire truth is conveniently captured for us in one passage, Titus 3:4-8:

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

Christians need "justification" plus "justification." Faith alone saves, but faith that is alone is not the genuine article. It's not saving faith.


http://all4jesus.wordpress.com/2008/05/23/...-paul-vs-james/




Paul speaks about works before being saved and during the moment of salvation, and before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28





James speaks about works after being saved and after the moment of salvation, and before the Judgement Seat of Christ.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 2:18



Jesus Christ is the First and Last Authority on the matter of 'works' -

Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 6:28,29





And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Luke 10:17-20





Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:53

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? John 6:60






But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:64-71






70 disciples - 58 disciples who turned away = 12 disciples - 1 false disciple = 11 disciples left






For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14



Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 6:29




Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:22,23

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:41



And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation 20:11-15







Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mark 9:23,24





................................................................................
he saved us, but not because of anything we had done to gain his approval. Instead, because of his mercy he saved us through the washing in which the Holy Spirit gives us new birth and renewal. Titus 3:5
................................................................................
................................................................................
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost Titus 3:5

From your post above:




Seems as though it is in agreement with what I posted.


In His Love,
Suzanne

Only faith in Christ saves. One comes to the cross without works, needy, lost and undone without God. You are then saved by faith in Christ plus nothing. You are no more justified now, than you were the moment you were saved.

Works do not save period, do not ever justify - they are only