Apparently, sin is said to have originated in GOD'S own kingdom, in his backyard. What are we to make of this account?
That God created sin in his own palace, or was he unable to prevent the generation/creation of the notion of sin? What does this say about his omniscience/omnipotence? Apparently, many other angels have been in the business of sinning ever since the very first one sinned. Who said only this world was sinful then?
If he is unable to deal with sin in his on backyard, can we trust him to deal with it here on earth. By the evidence, I would say NO. He has tried many many times before and failed; Sodom/Gomorah, Noah's Flood etc. are cases in point.
How could he NOT have known that his attempts at eradicating sin would fail miserably?
If he has not been successful in dealing with sin on earth and in heaven, should we believe him when he say that THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH will be free from sin?
What is going to stop the angels from starting the process all over again?
God is the author of evil according to the following verses:
* (Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
* (Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
Full Version: Is There Sin In Heaven?
Luke 9:41
And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.
And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.
The Serenity Prayer
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
theypointus,
Accept it as true, because the Bible appears to indicate that sin originated in Heaven?
Neither?
Nothing?
Sure. Satan sinned/rebelled, and a third of the angelic host followed him in rebelling against God. So?
God? Because though there had been sin in Heaven, God IMMEDIATELY (after allowing the fallen angels to make their choices) judged their sin and cast them out of Heaven. So, Heaven remains pure (there is no longer any sin in Heaven at all, though apparently Satan is allowed to come before God at times, as the Book of Job mentions).
Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
No, they're not. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, I ask: How many of the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah continued to sin on Earth after God punished those two cities? In the case of the Flood, one must bear in mind that ALL the humans on the ark were still sinners, though not steeped in sin like those who were destroyed in the Flood - God's purpose in the Flood was merely to have a "fresh start", not to completely rid the world of sin and evil.
How could you NOT have known that your attempts at destroying God would fail miserably?
Horse, here's water.
Now this is a quite valid and relevant, and important, question. Though the Bible does not explicitly say, logic and reasoning concerning the Bible and God's character, and the nature of free will, suggests the following: God's character does not change - He Himself will never sin, though He does have the freedom to choose to do so. All created beings with free will (angels and humans) are initially in a sort of "pliable" spiritual state - in this state, God gives them the freedom to choose what sort of character they want to have. For the angels, being in Heaven from the beginning of their creation, and knowing and experiencing God, and knowing His character, when they made their choices (Satan in his choice to exalt himself, the fallen angels in their choice to follow Satan and rebel against God, and the faithful angels in their choice to reject Satan and remain obedient to God), they in essence set their characters for all eternity (making those choices under those circumstances was of such a nature that nothing would ever change their characters [that was the ultimate test of their choice of character, if that makes sense]). Humans (Adam and Eve), on the other hand, sinned under different circumstances. They were not in Heaven from their beginning, though at times God visited them and talked with them. And, most importantly, Eve was deceived by Satan into sinning, and Adam apparently sinned only because he loved Eve and did not want to be separated from her (Adam was not deceived). The fallen angels were not deceived by Satan (apparently, they followed him simply because he was "impressive", and because they wanted to likewise exalt themselves), and they did not follow Satan because they loved him. So, God provided a means for humans to be redeemed from their sin, granting them time (from several hundreds of years, to roughly 70 years on average today) to repent of their sins. Those humans who repent of their sins will still at times sin, but by putting their faith in Jesus, they have made their choice as to what sort of character they want to have - after death, or at the Rapture, all such believers will be granted this desire of theirs, and their characters will be made like Jesus', such that they will never thereafter desire or choose to sin. All those who reject Jesus will have made their choice as to the character they wish to have, and God will grant them their desire as well - He will allow them to remain sinners, with sinful characters, and forever thereafter their hearts will be such that they would never repent of their sin. Each person has a free-will choice in the matter. But all those in Heaven will have characters which will never choose to sin.
The English language is not quite the same as it was in the time of King James (the King of England, not the NBA basketball player from Cleveland). The meaning of the Hebrew word translated "evil" in those two passages, in more modern terms, is "calamity". The Lord is sovereign over all events (even sparrows falling to the ground) - either He is the author of those events (for example, in judgment upon a wicked city like Sodom), or He is the allower of those events (as in the case of Job, when Satan tried him). God does not create "evil" - no unrighteous, unjust, event or act can be accounted to God.
QUOTE
Apparently, sin is said to have originated in GOD'S own kingdom, in his backyard. What are we to make of this account?
Accept it as true, because the Bible appears to indicate that sin originated in Heaven?
QUOTE
That God created sin in his own palace, or was he unable to prevent the generation/creation of the notion of sin?
Neither?
QUOTE
What does this say about his omniscience/omnipotence?
Nothing?
QUOTE
Apparently, many other angels have been in the business of sinning ever since the very first one sinned.
Sure. Satan sinned/rebelled, and a third of the angelic host followed him in rebelling against God. So?
QUOTE
Who said only this world was sinful then?
God? Because though there had been sin in Heaven, God IMMEDIATELY (after allowing the fallen angels to make their choices) judged their sin and cast them out of Heaven. So, Heaven remains pure (there is no longer any sin in Heaven at all, though apparently Satan is allowed to come before God at times, as the Book of Job mentions).
QUOTE
If he is unable to deal with sin in his on backyard, can we trust him to deal with it here on earth?
Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
QUOTE
By the evidence, I would say NO. He has tried many many times before and failed; Sodom/Gomorrah, Noah's Flood etc. are cases in point.
No, they're not. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, I ask: How many of the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah continued to sin on Earth after God punished those two cities? In the case of the Flood, one must bear in mind that ALL the humans on the ark were still sinners, though not steeped in sin like those who were destroyed in the Flood - God's purpose in the Flood was merely to have a "fresh start", not to completely rid the world of sin and evil.
QUOTE
How could he NOT have known that his attempts at eradicating sin would fail miserably?
How could you NOT have known that your attempts at destroying God would fail miserably?
QUOTE
If he has not been successful in dealing with sin on earth and in heaven, should we believe him when he say that THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH will be free from sin?
Horse, here's water.
QUOTE
What is going to stop the angels from starting the process all over again?
Now this is a quite valid and relevant, and important, question. Though the Bible does not explicitly say, logic and reasoning concerning the Bible and God's character, and the nature of free will, suggests the following: God's character does not change - He Himself will never sin, though He does have the freedom to choose to do so. All created beings with free will (angels and humans) are initially in a sort of "pliable" spiritual state - in this state, God gives them the freedom to choose what sort of character they want to have. For the angels, being in Heaven from the beginning of their creation, and knowing and experiencing God, and knowing His character, when they made their choices (Satan in his choice to exalt himself, the fallen angels in their choice to follow Satan and rebel against God, and the faithful angels in their choice to reject Satan and remain obedient to God), they in essence set their characters for all eternity (making those choices under those circumstances was of such a nature that nothing would ever change their characters [that was the ultimate test of their choice of character, if that makes sense]). Humans (Adam and Eve), on the other hand, sinned under different circumstances. They were not in Heaven from their beginning, though at times God visited them and talked with them. And, most importantly, Eve was deceived by Satan into sinning, and Adam apparently sinned only because he loved Eve and did not want to be separated from her (Adam was not deceived). The fallen angels were not deceived by Satan (apparently, they followed him simply because he was "impressive", and because they wanted to likewise exalt themselves), and they did not follow Satan because they loved him. So, God provided a means for humans to be redeemed from their sin, granting them time (from several hundreds of years, to roughly 70 years on average today) to repent of their sins. Those humans who repent of their sins will still at times sin, but by putting their faith in Jesus, they have made their choice as to what sort of character they want to have - after death, or at the Rapture, all such believers will be granted this desire of theirs, and their characters will be made like Jesus', such that they will never thereafter desire or choose to sin. All those who reject Jesus will have made their choice as to the character they wish to have, and God will grant them their desire as well - He will allow them to remain sinners, with sinful characters, and forever thereafter their hearts will be such that they would never repent of their sin. Each person has a free-will choice in the matter. But all those in Heaven will have characters which will never choose to sin.
QUOTE
God is the author of evil according to the following verses:
* (Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
* (Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
* (Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
* (Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
The English language is not quite the same as it was in the time of King James (the King of England, not the NBA basketball player from Cleveland). The meaning of the Hebrew word translated "evil" in those two passages, in more modern terms, is "calamity". The Lord is sovereign over all events (even sparrows falling to the ground) - either He is the author of those events (for example, in judgment upon a wicked city like Sodom), or He is the allower of those events (as in the case of Job, when Satan tried him). God does not create "evil" - no unrighteous, unjust, event or act can be accounted to God.
Until the principalities and powers are thrown down.....then yes.
<><
John
<><
John
Pointus,
If all you ate was sweet food, would you know it was sweet and delicous? But if you tatsted sour, then you would likely really love and desire the sweet food. Maybe God, although He did not sin because He is perfect, allowed enough freedom for sin so that two benefits would emerge:
1) we would be able to get to know Him to be sweet (because we tasted sour). Otherwise, ignorant preference would not really be preference at all.
2) how could there be true love for Him if there was no room given in order to choose to love (room = by faith)? Love is not forced...
Song of Solomon (wisdom):
7 Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you by the gazelles and by the does of the field: Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires.
FORCED LOVE IS NOT LOVE AT ALL (that would be slavery, which you seem to be highly against in other posts)
If all you ate was sweet food, would you know it was sweet and delicous? But if you tatsted sour, then you would likely really love and desire the sweet food. Maybe God, although He did not sin because He is perfect, allowed enough freedom for sin so that two benefits would emerge:
1) we would be able to get to know Him to be sweet (because we tasted sour). Otherwise, ignorant preference would not really be preference at all.
2) how could there be true love for Him if there was no room given in order to choose to love (room = by faith)? Love is not forced...
Song of Solomon (wisdom):
7 Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you by the gazelles and by the does of the field: Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires.
FORCED LOVE IS NOT LOVE AT ALL (that would be slavery, which you seem to be highly against in other posts)
QUOTE (pointus @ Jul 31 2008, 03:59 PM) 
Apparently, sin is said to have originated in GOD'S own kingdom, in his backyard. What are we to make of this account?
That God created sin in his own palace, or was he unable to prevent the generation/creation of the notion of sin? What does this say about his omniscience/omnipotence? Apparently, many other angels have been in the business of sinning ever since the very first one sinned. Who said only this world was sinful then?
If he is unable to deal with sin in his on backyard, can we trust him to deal with it here on earth. By the evidence, I would say NO. He has tried many many times before and failed; Sodom/Gomorah, Noah's Flood etc. are cases in point.
How could he NOT have known that his attempts at eradicating sin would fail miserably?
If he has not been successful in dealing with sin on earth and in heaven, should we believe him when he say that THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH will be free from sin?
What is going to stop the angels from starting the process all over again?
God is the author of evil according to the following verses:
* (Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
* (Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
That God created sin in his own palace, or was he unable to prevent the generation/creation of the notion of sin? What does this say about his omniscience/omnipotence? Apparently, many other angels have been in the business of sinning ever since the very first one sinned. Who said only this world was sinful then?
If he is unable to deal with sin in his on backyard, can we trust him to deal with it here on earth. By the evidence, I would say NO. He has tried many many times before and failed; Sodom/Gomorah, Noah's Flood etc. are cases in point.
How could he NOT have known that his attempts at eradicating sin would fail miserably?
If he has not been successful in dealing with sin on earth and in heaven, should we believe him when he say that THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH will be free from sin?
What is going to stop the angels from starting the process all over again?
God is the author of evil according to the following verses:
* (Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
* (Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
You are wrong - God did not fail in eradicating sin...the devil is on God's leash. Evil serve as God's good purpose in chastising those walking in sin. It's called the curse and you can read it in Deut 28. Only in Jesus, are we free from those curses- evils- which do come from God...sickness, disease, mental torments, every problem on the earth...only in Jesus is their deliverance from this...and then only if you believe that.
I can send you a chapter of a book on this topic if you are interested. The Bible says "the curse causeless alighteth not."
Humanity is under the curse of their rebellion and sin. In Jesus, we can walk out of that, and God will save us in all circumstances. I have seen/experienced the Lord give us a house (through the prayer of faith in His promises) when we had no money, cure my kids of sicknesses (including autism and food allergies), fix my car, provide food and clothing to us in the name of Jesus Christ who has put the devil and sin under His feet.
The Word of God has power and there are signs that follow those who believe.
The Lord 's plan is perfect and proceeding as He has willed it. The problem is too few believe it to partake of the benefits.
Pointus, you can't be argued or convinced into Christ- it's a gift from God.
Peace to you.
I have a very very simple answer which cannot be twisted and backfire on me
Yes Sin did originate from Heaven why because he gave all his angels freewill
Freewill is and will be always God's purpose, The Angels had a choice to worship and obey God or not
The reason, because God is a loving God not a selfish God and he wanted freedom in worship through choice and out of Love
Of course there is that price to pay and it happened Satan turned his back and 1/3 followed suit but 2/3s still enjoy their close worship
through love not force
God prefers worship out of love
He hates forced worship
Yes Sin did originate from Heaven why because he gave all his angels freewill
Freewill is and will be always God's purpose, The Angels had a choice to worship and obey God or not
The reason, because God is a loving God not a selfish God and he wanted freedom in worship through choice and out of Love
Of course there is that price to pay and it happened Satan turned his back and 1/3 followed suit but 2/3s still enjoy their close worship
through love not force
God prefers worship out of love
He hates forced worship
QUOTE (Mosesjoel @ Oct 9 2008, 02:37 PM)
I have a very very simple answer which cannot be twisted and backfire on me
Yes Sin did originate from Heaven why because he gave all his angels freewill
Freewill is and will be always God's purpose, The Angels had a choice to worship and obey God or not
The reason, because God is a loving God not a selfish God and he wanted freedom in worship through choice and out of Love
Of course there is that price to pay and it happened Satan turned his back and 1/3 followed suit but 2/3s still enjoy their close worship
through love not force
God prefers worship out of love
He hates forced worship
Yes Sin did originate from Heaven why because he gave all his angels freewill
Freewill is and will be always God's purpose, The Angels had a choice to worship and obey God or not
The reason, because God is a loving God not a selfish God and he wanted freedom in worship through choice and out of Love
Of course there is that price to pay and it happened Satan turned his back and 1/3 followed suit but 2/3s still enjoy their close worship
through love not force
God prefers worship out of love
He hates forced worship
Whats this now about the other 2/3?????????
You make some good points.
Who is the God of this world?
Who had the authority to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth?
Who has set himself as God in the temple of God?
Can a man discern the wheat from the tares?
Who is the God of this world?
Who had the authority to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth?
Who has set himself as God in the temple of God?
Can a man discern the wheat from the tares?
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