lately i haven't known exactly what to think about a pretrib rapture, but with all of the fervent activity of the new agers at apparently explaining away such an event, it has made me utterly suspicious to say the least.

here is an excerpt from one of chuck missler's books. according to an alien called "Ashtar" who has been communicating with new agers for some time, the coming alien evacuation that they have planned will occur in two phases:

"PHASE I of the Great Exodus of souls from the planet will take place at a moment's notice when it is determined that the inhabitants are in danger"

"PHASE II This second phase immediately following the first. The second phase is vital, as we return for children of all ages and races. The child does not have the power of choice in understanding nor personal accountability."

The following "Question" was asked by a member of the congregation at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, and "Answered" by their pastor, John MacArthur Jr:

"What happens to children during and after the rapture?":

"Now its my personal conviction, my personal belief that in the rapture every child that is too young to have made a conscience, willful, rebellious, sinful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken to be with the Lord. I believe that it would be just the same if a little child died before he reached that age; he would instantly go to be with the Lord. David’s little boy died (2 Samuel), he says, "He cannot come to me but I shall go to him." He knew where he was; he knew he was in the presence of God. I believe when the rapture happens all the little kids that are under the age where they made a conscience, willful, sinful, rebellion against God, where they willfully turned their back on him, I believe the Lord will just take them right with us. You say do you believe that about the children of the unsaved parents? Yes, that’s just my personal opinion cause the Bible doesn’t say. But, if Jesus said, "If anybody offends one of these little ones, it would be better for him..." what? "That a millstone were hanged around his neck and he would drown in the sea. He said if anyone offends one of these MY little ones." I think he possesses them. I think they belong to him, and I think they will go in the rapture."

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-A-5.htm

Immortality, please don't listen to anyone...pro or con on the rapture issue, unless they teach from God's Word. You know my beliefs...there is no rapture. We will all be here for the tribulation of Satan which is great, great deception and the rapture issue is a huge part of the deception.


If anyone was going to be taken it would be with no decision on their part...it would just happen. Don't be fooled dear Immortality. Be suspicious of everything.

i'm not being fooled and i am indeed suspicious of everything. if i wasn't, then i would just completely disregard the activity of the new agers.

I pray for wisdom for all of us. I too am sceptical though I have tried hard not to be

me as well, however the holy spirit keeps leading me into subjects like this.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle

as christians, i think we need to do more of this.

Yes, you are suspicious of all Immortality as we should all be. There is so much deception going on now and there is soon to be much, much more.


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which DECEIVETH THE WHOLE WORLD: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


He's coming for us and I pray we all withstand his deception. So...suspicion is going to come in handy.

Satan is influencing the idea that there is no "rapture" through many and various movements today both within and without professing christianity. Don't be deceived. The scriptures prove otherwise and the descerning know the truth. The Lord's "harpazo" (catching away) action to immortalize the Body of Christ is a Biblical fact .... many are falling into the trap of satanic hobgoblin on this issue and this is why not all professing "christians" will participate when this event takes place. Satan has good reason to refute this truth; He hates the idea of human immortality and he is coming to the earth at the time of the end personally. Refuting the "rapture" is one of his methods of preparation for his arrival. The doubting believer will be caught off guard and will enter the tribulation period at the time ..... the danger? .... being deceived by Satan himslf during the period and the loss of one's immortality.

I completely agree with you Stephen. The deceiver is out to kill , steal and destroy. And because I'm on fire for God and truely believe if you're not looking, you're not going, I'm going to have to disagree with some and provide them with a few scriptures to make them realize the "mystery" that is slowly being revealed for such a time as these. But if you want to go through Trib- I guess I should say Good Luck with that? I know I won't be here!

Paul spoke about the coming of the Lord in his first epistle, written about 54 AD.
*****"And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." 1 Thes 1:10
*****"To the end He may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints." 1 Thes 3:13
Also, 1 Thes 2:19, 1 Thes 4:15, 1 Thes 5:23

RAPTURE is the english word for the Greek word HARPAZO-"caught up"
***** "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be "caught up together" with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes 4:15-17

RAPTURE is the english word for the Latin word REPERE-"to transport from one place to another"
*****"Having made known unto us a mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed himself. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might "gather together" in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him." Eph 1:9-10

(Exodus 19 is almost like a sneak preview of the Rapture of the Church.)

"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." Eph 5:6

REALIZE!!!! The Bible maintains a principle of the righteous escaping wrath and judgement. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him." 1 Thes 5:9-10
EXAMPLES- The days of Noah- Heb 11:7
The days of Lot- Gen 18:25; Gen 19:22, 29
the escape from Egypt- Ex 12:23
Rahab in Jericho- Heb 11:31
the destruction of Jerusalem- a remnant escaped- Luke 21:21
the Jewish remnant during tribulation- Rev 7:3
And my favorite righteous delivering verse: EZ 14: 13-14

*****"Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Rom 5:9

God's wrath is for his enemies (Nahum 1:2), for the ungodly and unrighteous (Rom 1:18), and the children of disobedience Eph 5:6). Not for His Bride, the Church.

Here's a good one: ROM 2: 5-9

I don't know about all ya'll but I'm watching and praying! "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36

If anyone is really interested for more, I was studying up on ancient Jewish weddings because the church is referred to as the bride of Christ (Rev 21:2) If you go to the website ReturnToGod.com-look up Weddings of Ancient Israel A Picture of the Messiah. Especially you MOCKERS AND DOUBTING THOMAS'S!!!!! It is an awesome analogy. If it doesn't reveal something to you then I guess I can try to pray harder for you. Also biblicalholidays.com is another great website that could possibly shed a little light on the doubters. Just look under the Fall Holidays section.

I'm keeping my garment white and my lamp burning! God Bless!

girl,

You have the truth about the Lord's call for believers. Never let it go. Many have done this and it is the first step to satanic deception which is a dangerous course for one to take. The believer's greatest hope is the Lord's return for both the dead in Christ and those living at the moment.

Here!Here!and Amen!

...............................................benny

Girl 4 God This is a very good post may God bless you! and I do believe we will be with JESUS soon. There are so many on this forum who are still blind to what God is saying but I believe God will leave the door open to anyone who is truly looking for Him. Take care your brother in the Lord. MARANATHA!!!!!

Let me just take the last one....

Exodus 14:13-14 Son of man, when the land sinneth against Me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out Mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these thee men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

Three righteous men, Noah, Daniel and Job were IN IT. They were in the tribulation of their time. Noah wasn't raptured anywhere when the waters came but was IN the middle of it. He built an ark...just as we should of the knowledge of God. It will protect us as it did Noah. Daniel was IN the lion's den but he was protected....just as we will be if we remain true during the great deception. Look at Job. Was he raptured anywhere?

We will not experience any wrath if we know the fake is coming first pretending to be Christ. The wrath of God is reserved for those that take the mark of the beast and that just means to believe his lies, to believe he is Christ....will you? Will others that aren't taught the truth of the end times as told to us by Christ Himself?

Also besides checking out, Weedings of Ancient Israel on ReturnToGod.com, it is very intresting to know that Yom Teruah has the folowing.
Idioms for the Feast of Yom Teruah:
[/color]
The Time of Jacobs trouble
The Day of the Awakening Blast
Yom HaDin/Day of Judgement / The opening of the books / Opening of the Gates
Yom HaKeseh (The Hidden Day)
Ha Kiddsuhin / Nesuin (Wedding of the Messiah)
Ha Melech (Coronation of the Messiah)

[color="#0000FF"]People Look Up Our Lord about to call HIS BRIDE.

whirlwind, That would be Ezekiel, not Exodus

In 2 Peter 2:4-6 it says " For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell and committed them to the pits of darkness, reserved for judgement; and did not spare the ancient world , but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter;
*guess what, if those people were made examples of to the ungodly, what examples is God making of the righteous in those situations?
Noah, Daniel, and Lot all went through tribulation and trials in their lifetime, as do all believers (John 16:33) but in the verses in Ezekiel, God was first talking about how they could only save themselves by their own righteousness if He were to do those things; then God proceeds to talk about the judgements in Revelation.(in vs.21) For thus says the Lord God "How much more when I send My four severe judgements against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts, and plague to cut off man and beast from it! (vs 22) "Yet behold, survivors will be left in it who will be brought out, both sons and daughters.....

survivors-Pleytah or pletah- a deliverance, an escape, or a remnant: used in Heb OT to refer to the remnant of Gods people.. It was especially used for those who a survived a terrible ordeal.
left-Yather- to be left, to remain; to let remain, to leave, to spare; to prefer, to give superiority or abundance.The part. form means remnant or remainder. It is the residue, the excess. After a portion has been divided, this is the smaller part, which is left over. Often is is of lesser quality.

Wow! Praise God! After that I don't even think I need to go on! But I will....

Ez 14:14-....they should deliver their own souls by their righteousness...
deliver- Natsal- to snatch away, to be snatched out of; to be drawn out, to be delivered, to be saved; to set free, to free oneself; to deliver, to save, to tear apart, to pull away,, to withdraw, to escape

I love you man! Please pray for wisdom in this. Remember.. there are 10 virgins-(meaning they are worthy enough) but only 5 were wise.

Oops...sorry....Ezekiel!





That is my point....survivors "survive a terrible ordeal." They experience the ordeal but they survive.....just as Noah, Daniel and Job.



Yes, you do because you are not making a case for us not being here during the tribulation.



They/we will "deliver our own souls" by knowing what is happening in the end of days. The fake christ will be there pretending to be Jesus. If we follow him we take the mark of the beast. We "deliver our souls" by waiting for the true Saviour.


Thank you....I do pray for wisdom. Yes, there are ten virgins. The foolish ones left before the bridegroom came. Why? Because they didn't have enough oil (truth). They will fall for the deception of the antichrist because they will believe the lie of rapture. The five that stayed behind, had enough truth, and waited for the bridegroom, the true bridegroom...they went in with him to the marriage; and the door was shut.


This is very much like those working in the field. The first were taken by the anti-christ (being promised a rapture) while the others stayed working in the field until the true Saviour arrived. We, as Christians, have a job to do and it isn't to fly away.


Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the SOULS TO MAKE THEM FLY, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls the ye hunt to MAKE THEM FLY.

And are you seriously quoting a scripture refering to a false prophet??? Everything I have ever posted on here I have backed up with scripture. If I ever stated my opinion, I said it was my thought or opinion. Wow-that's kind of insulting. Oh well! God is good! I feel like the blessed slave in Matthew 24:42-51. Which slave do you feel like?

No, of course the Bible isn't lying however those attempting to make it fit rapture are lying or don't understand what they are reading.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in (the) clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

First - He is coming here to meet us. Those of us "still alive that remain"....meaning, those of us that are NOT SPIRITUALLY DEAD BECAUSE WE FELL FOR SATAN'S DECEPTION will be caught together (omit "the" as it was not in the text) in clouds...meaning...as in a cloud of locusts, a cloud of dust..a large gathering of souls...we will meet in clouds of souls. And we will meet the Lord how, where? In the air...meaning in our spirit bodies. Air, taken to the root means....

Air #5594 ~ breath, spirit, which is the rational and immortal soul.

Those of us that do not fall for Satan's deception, do not take the mark of the beast, will meet the Lord, at the 7th trump, in our spirit bodies and...so shall we ever be with the Lord. To demonstrate that is what is meant please go to Paul's following letter to the Thessalonians where he cleared up the misunderstanding about the above verses:

11 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That lays it all out there so there should be no mistakes. Some misunderstood Paul's first letter (including many today) so he wrote this second letter to clear up the details and those details are; Christ will not be here until AFTER the falling away (the apostasy) and after the "man of sin" is here playing like he is Christ...deceiving the world. That time of deception is called the "great tribulation." We will all be here.

To The pigeons:

It amazes me that gentile Christians always want something for nothing. They want to be part of the anointed class yet they are barely willing to give the other cheek. Compare Satan’s brood, they will do anything for their master the ‘Oak’ tree, they are willing to blow themselves up. Well even though they think they will be going up to heaven and getting 70 virgins.You can imagine what they would want to do in heaven to those virgins. What about you, what are you willing to give? If you obey the 10 commandments, good for you, you are still a good for nothing servant, still not a profitable one. If you are willing to be used for the cause of God Almighty, then you are becoming some type of profitable servant, and that REMAINS to be seen yet, when the time come when Satan vents his full fury on the Saints when he goes after them. [For those cowards out there, looking for a place of safety, Satan is going to enjoy seeing these cowards suffer, like the sadist that he is]

Now those who are worthy of the 1st resurrection are part of God’s saints, those being 144,000, believe it or not most of these Saints will come from your own country, America. The daughter of Zion [who will join later, the SJ] and the Son’s of Jerusalem does not form part of this class, but will form the ‘woman’ mentioned in revelation, this woman will be based in Israel. Now those who are left, who survive the tribulation, the saints at the time of Christ coming will be caught up with him, this will take effect in Jerusalem, as this is the place where the Christ is coming to. Now these saints [who will be guided by spirit to go there] will meet the Christ in the air when he blows the last trumpet. This trumpet is NOT the same as the 7th trumpet, which is blown in heaven by an angel.

The greatest honour that a Saint/Servant can have is to be martyred in the service of GOD ALMIGHTY!
Though you will not get 70 virgins as the degenerate ‘OAK TREE’ claims to his brood, but You who are worthy will receive Immortality, and will sit in the Judgment of the fallen angelic creatures.

I will leave you with these verses:[Talking about the saints and prophets]

Heb 11:32-37 … Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two[Prophet Isaiah]; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

You do the same when the time comes!

As God would have it, I popped in here to show you some scriptures that tell us the truth about this topic.

Isaiah 44 is about the Chosen not just Israel.

Why because in verse 44:5)

1.)One will say, I belong to the Lord; (this is one group)

2.) Another will call himself by the name of Jacob (2nd group)

3.) And still another will write on his hand, "The Lord's" and will take the name
of Israel (the 3rd group)

In Isaiah 44:3 of this chapter our children are mentioned being with us, who are
of these three groups.

THIS IS SPEAKING OF THE FUTURE WITH CHRIST BECAUSE HE IS SPEAKING OF
CHANGING THE LAND AND HAVING STREAMS APPEAR AND PREPARING THE LAND.

Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water on the thristy land, and streams on the dry ground,
"I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON YOUR OFFSPRING/CHILDREN
AND MY BLESSINGS ON YOUR DESCENDANTS."

Isaiah 44 is speaking about the time when sins have been forgiven and the Chosen
which includes us are having Christ reign over us. All our children will be there
that have come from us that God has not brought to accountability.

The Age is not mentioned here, but our Lord has promised us in his New Covenant
with us that are called, "our children are sanctified and made holy through us. They have
their time being given God's spirit for the 1000 yr reign.

Many can argue this point all they want, with ministers saying many different things about
the age of accountability and that it is now. God has made this statement as what he will
do and we will have to wait to see the fullness of it.

But make no doubt, that our children will be there as Christ has spoken this.

Friend.

Yes, you are right, it is Satan's delight to give his throne, authority, and power to this man who REV 13 speaks of

Rev 13:2 last part "The dragon/Satan" gave the beast/man who is an 8th king his power and his throne and great authority.

13:4 Men worshiped the Dragon/Satan "BECAUSE HE HAD GIVEN AUTHORITY TO THE BEAST/MAN, AND THEY ALSO WORSHIPED THE BEAST AND ASKED, "WHO IS LIKE THE BEAST"? Who can make war against him?

This 4th kingdom coming upon the whole earth soon consist of this power given by Satan, a kingdom called Iron and clay.
Iron because it comes from Satan and clay because it is given to a man for a short period of time till God comes and removes him from his throne and destroys this beast/false prophet.

It is nice to see some one who knows truth. Accepts the truth just as it is written.

Friend

Good for you we are in the GT and we will be lifted up at the time designated and we don't know the hour or the day.
Though many have tried to put a date, which would make God a liar.
The only thing we have been given is the sequence of events that lead up to it. Amen

Friend

" :1dsz5f1:What happens to children during and after the rapture?":

"Now its my personal conviction, my personal belief that in the rapture every child that is too young to have made a conscience, willful, rebellious, sinful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken to be with the Lord. I believe that it would be just the same if a little child died before he reached that age; he would instantly go to be with the Lord. David’s little boy died (2 Samuel), he says, "He cannot come to me but I shall go to him." He knew where he was; he knew he was in the presence of God. I believe when the rapture happens all the little kids that are under the age where they made a conscience, willful, sinful, rebellion against God, where they willfully turned their back on him, I believe the Lord will just take them right with us. You say do you believe that about the children of the unsaved parents? Yes, that’s just my personal opinion cause the Bible doesn’t say. But, if Jesus said, "If anybody offends one of these little ones, it would be better for him..." what? "That a millstone were hanged around his neck and he would drown in the sea. He said if anyone offends one of these MY little ones." I think he possesses them. I think they belong to him, and I think they will go in the rapture."

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-A-5.htm

Very true and accurate. Jesus even gives us a clear answer in scripture. Suffer little ones to come unto me. Those that have not reached the age of accountability will come unto Jesus. Jesus will always guard his children and none shall snatch them from his hand.