"Is an action morally good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is morally good?"

Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command_theory

The 2nd 1.

Hi Pointus,

The maker of everything tells us what we need to know to do well. He knows how He made His systems. He tells us how to succeed in His systems here and to the point of a heavily rewarded eternal life . We have the option to believe Him or not. Atheists don't believe in His existence (everything came from nothing ) and therefore choose their own understanding to guide them through their lives (even though, they were not their own maker, somehow they know better than Him how to live). Those who do believe in Him and follow His Word succeed in their endeavors that are for His Glory, because He is for His own Glory. He cannot deny Himself. It is a HUGE privledge to be used by Him for His Glory. That is a joy that those who don't believe miss out on, sadly....

Just like the Skittles commercial asks.....Pointus, do you want to be a part of the rainbow of God's Glory?

The answer is no, he wants to go to Hell when he dies.

This is the 3rd most common misconception about atheism.

Atheists don't believe we came from nothing. Atheists believe all matter that exists, have always existed.

This is just like how Christians believe God didn't come from nothing - He always has existed.

Atheists believing things have always existed is no different than Christians believing God has always existed.

Suppose that both atheists and Christians were wrong, and everything including God came from nothing.

In that case, it is a mystery to atheists how we came from nothing and it is a mystery to Christians how God came from nothing.

Take for instance slavery. What is your moral opinion of slavery? What did god have to say about slavery?

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT.)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB.)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT.)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT.)


Well considering the Bible was written by humans...

So the bible does not condemn slavery, does it?

That's actually not a good reason to be an atheist.

It is possible to be a Christian that rejects Leviticus. And believe the Bible is 99% right.

Oops. No Christian here wants to accept that.

Morality is a human concept. We get morality from the tree of of the knowledge of good and evil. We judge if something is good or not. But this is an evil in God's eyes. Only He has the perspective to judge what is truly right and good. Evil, we can usually tell, especially if it is directed against ourselves. An evil that we are perpetrating, however, can be a lot harder to discern. To be an unbeliever for instance, one can chock up to ignorance. Teaching others to be as ignorant, or seeking to destroy godly wisdom then becomes a great evil. Can a blind man see this? Of course not.

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John

I don't see how a rational atheist's morality is any worse than Christian morality.

Christians follow Jesus' teachings. Jesus' teachings are the highest standard, He even tells you to love you enemy. Not all christians follow His teachings, though.

Follower333.

http://teachinghearts.org/dre17hstdeath.html

Immortality and Eternal Life

Are we immortal? The bible teaches that only God is immortal. But it also teaches that we can have eternal life as a gift through Jesus Christ. Although both can live forever, there is a difference.

Innate Immortality. These get their eternal life from within. They can only cease to exist if they choose to cease to exist. In the only place in the scripture where the word "immortal" is used, it is applied to God. Only God has life within Himself.
"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Timothy 1: 17)

"That you keep this commandment without spot, or reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which he shall show in his times, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen" (1 Timothy 6: 14 -16)
Derived Immortality. These get their eternal life from an external source. If that source could cease to exist, they would cease to exist. 1 Corinthians 15: 50-54 describes this as "putting on" immortality as if it were a garment. Only Christ, dwelling in the light, has immortality. We do not possess immortality, without Christ.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15: 52-53)

Pointus,

I think your name here is interesting. Point ....us.... You seem to want us to point you in the right direction. And we are doing the best we can and will continue to in this reply. Is it possible the problem here is on your side, such as you do not have the right heart to hear?

The Word of God cannot be broken; it says so. It will break you (either into believing while you are still alive, or into damnation if you die unbelieving). We are like flour going through the sieve of His Word. In order to gain Godly wisdom, (in order to go though the sieve and begin to see the beauty of Him) the flour chunks must be broken down into smaller and smaller pieces. Those who are too puffed up and refuse to be broken up will not go through the sieve to the glorious understanding of His Word. The rest break their minds being banged around until time runs out.

That being said, I'll deal more closely with your issue of slavery. It does not matter where you are placed in the world, or what your position is, either master or slave, what matters is that you come to know Him while you still have the opportunity. There is no place you could be on this earth, no position you could be in that would prevent you from seeing and knowing Him!

Ro 1:20 -
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

DON'T TRY TO CRACK HIS WORD to prove others should not have faith, or in order for you to begin to have faith! You cannot do it. No human can! He (God) is sooooooo far beyond you that a comparison would be laughable. It is ridiculous to think that you can understand the inscrutable. Check out the ending of Job 38 -42 for how ridiculous it is to have that attitude.

Job:
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-- 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? 8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, 9 when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, 10 when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, 11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'?

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, 13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. 15 The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken. 16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? 17 Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death? 18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this. 19 "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? 20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? 21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years! 22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, 23 which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle? 24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?

25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, 26 to water a land where no man lives, a desert with no one in it, 27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass? 28 Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? 29 From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens 30 when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen? 31 "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? 32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs? 33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God's dominion over the earth? 34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water? 35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, 'Here we are'? 36 Who endowed the heart with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind? 37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens 38 when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together? 39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions 40 when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket? 41 Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?


The point I am making to you (Point...Us) is you that you must have a right heart (sincerely desiring God), as well as, "eyes to see and ears to hear" in order to make progress out of the pit that you are currently in. Ask Him to help you if you really want help; you cannot help yourself. You can do nothing by yourself; you need Him.

It does not matter if you are moral or immoral; if you do not have the covering of Christ (salvation) when you encounter Him face to face, you'll go to eternal damnation. That may seem like blah, blah, blah to you, and not very concerning if you ridicule Christian beliefs, but if you really think logically about the size of the universe and the power of it, compared to you (nothing in comparison); looking the creator of all that in the face will be truely scary.

I recommend you get a transcript (or check it out on itunes) of Jonathon Edwards (he lived during the Great Awakening) sermon "Sinners in the hands of an angry God."

You must approach Him with the "fear of the Lord"...or in other words, Godly reverence.

You are in a Bad condition. If you were just in for death, you may not be too scared (because once your done, your done), but ETERNAL damantion is scary because it will NEVER be over. Think this over....well...

One other thing I must mention about your post regarding the circular reasoning of Bible and believing. Look at what is available for hope in ths world. There is NONE except the gospel. Try it out, research it all, try to live on your own understanding...when it all breaks down, come back to the truth. He'll have you when you get to the end of yourself. And you will get there, He has set up the system to drive you to that point....

Enough said!

Neal and Pointus,

(a proof for the existence of a creator found in the end of Guide for the Perplexed)

1) The Universe is limited, and therefore cannot possess an unlimited force.
2) All things are compounds; the composition must be owing to some external cause.
3) Changes observed in all beings are effected by some external cause.
4) If time were infinite, it would be impossible to conceive the progress of time from the present moment to the future, or from the past to the present moment.

arguments founded on the following prepositions:
1) A thing cannot be its own maker.
2) The series of successive causes is finite.
3) Compounds owe their existense to an external source.

another argument:

1) The Universe, even the elements, are compounds consisting of substance and form.
2) In the Universe plan and unity is discernable.

Have you heard of Job? He was outwardly moral and good, but self righteous in his heart. The Lord judges us by our hearts....we walk in the light we have.

Blessed is he who hungers and thirst for righteousness - he shall be satisfied.

instead of telling us what that internet site has to say how about you use the brain god has given you i know of that site and tend to avoid it


you should know what a good command and what a bad command is pointus


if your about to brake the law or do something what does your gut instincts tell you do you do what you normaly dont do or do you listen to your flesh ?



do you use the brain god has given you instead of looking at what happend in the past ?

slavery stil exists today and its up to us to stand up for the ones that have not got a voice and if you choose not to stand up for the ones cought up in this you are going by your human insticts


when you se the world vision adds on tv were you see a child in need do you turn the tv off what goes threw your thoughts when you see the world vission adds ?



god bless from damo

You are the 1st Christian in this forum that says use the brain God gave you to know right and wrong.

So you are the 1st Christian that believes human rationality can know right from wrong.

Clearly this means you believe atheists can have morality and that we don't need the Bible to know right from wrong when we can also use our brain.

Well I agree with you, and people like Excubitor will not.

Although I feel what you said is not what you meant..