Many Christians claim the bible was inspired by their god. There is no outside source for this proposition but the bible itself - circular logic there. But is it true that the bible was inspired by god? With god being omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent what would you expect of a piece of work from his hands and mind?
There should be no superlative grand enough to describe the work of such a being. But is that what we find in the bible? Are there any grand truths in the bible? If it is the inspiration of god, how did god transfer his thoughts into the minds of the writers of the bible? Was it through visions, trances, hallucinations, audible voices, hand-holding, telepathy etc. If this really was the work of god, would you expect the following in god's own work;
1) Falsehood
2) Contradictions
3) Distortions and corruption
4) God ordering massacres, genocide, human sacrifices, cannibalism
5) Almost anything that can be scientifically attested is wrong
What would be your framework for deciding a piece of work as belonging to a given individual? Supposing in 300 years time someone were to discover a piece of writing that purports to be the work of Einstein. How would we go about proving or disproving this as Einstein's work, given that we have copies of his genuine work and we know the high standard of his mind.
Can someone come up with a framework for assessing works that are claimed to be god-inspired? Can this framework be applied to the bible and the Ko-ran?
To my mind, these books are consistent with the minds of primitive bronze-age people with very little knowledge of the reality around them.
Full Version: Did God Inspire The Bible And The Koran?
QUOTE (pointus @ Jul 29 2008, 03:47 AM) 
Many Christians claim the bible was inspired by their god. There is no outside source for this proposition but the bible itself - circular logic there. But is it true that the bible was inspired by god? With god being omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent what would you expect of a piece of work from his hands and mind?
There should be no superlative grand enough to describe the work of such a being. But is that what we find in the bible? Are there any grand truths in the bible? If it is the inspiration of god, how did god transfer his thoughts into the minds of the writers of the bible? Was it through visions, trances, hallucinations, audible voices, hand-holding, telepathy etc. If this really was the work of god, would you expect the following in god's own work;
1) Falsehood
2) Contradictions
3) Distortions and corruption
4) God ordering massacres, genocide, human sacrifices, cannibalism
5) Almost anything that can be scientifically attested is wrong
What would be your framework for deciding a piece of work as belonging to a given individual? Supposing in 300 years time someone were to discover a piece of writing that purports to be the work of Einstein. How would we go about proving or disproving this as Einstein's work, given that we have copies of his genuine work and we know the high standard of his mind.
Can someone come up with a framework for assessing works that are claimed to be god-inspired? Can this framework be applied to the bible and the Ko-ran?
To my mind, these books are consistent with the minds of primitive bronze-age people with very little knowledge of the reality around them.
There should be no superlative grand enough to describe the work of such a being. But is that what we find in the bible? Are there any grand truths in the bible? If it is the inspiration of god, how did god transfer his thoughts into the minds of the writers of the bible? Was it through visions, trances, hallucinations, audible voices, hand-holding, telepathy etc. If this really was the work of god, would you expect the following in god's own work;
1) Falsehood
2) Contradictions
3) Distortions and corruption
4) God ordering massacres, genocide, human sacrifices, cannibalism
5) Almost anything that can be scientifically attested is wrong
What would be your framework for deciding a piece of work as belonging to a given individual? Supposing in 300 years time someone were to discover a piece of writing that purports to be the work of Einstein. How would we go about proving or disproving this as Einstein's work, given that we have copies of his genuine work and we know the high standard of his mind.
Can someone come up with a framework for assessing works that are claimed to be god-inspired? Can this framework be applied to the bible and the Ko-ran?
To my mind, these books are consistent with the minds of primitive bronze-age people with very little knowledge of the reality around them.
it is what you believe whether it is wrong or whether it is right.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
QUOTE (ozell @ Jul 29 2008, 05:06 AM)
QUOTE (pointus @ Jul 29 2008, 03:47 AM)
Many Christians claim the bible was inspired by their god. There is no outside source for this proposition but the bible itself - circular logic there. But is it true that the bible was inspired by god? With god being omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent what would you expect of a piece of work from his hands and mind?
There should be no superlative grand enough to describe the work of such a being. But is that what we find in the bible? Are there any grand truths in the bible? If it is the inspiration of god, how did god transfer his thoughts into the minds of the writers of the bible? Was it through visions, trances, hallucinations, audible voices, hand-holding, telepathy etc. If this really was the work of god, would you expect the following in god's own work;
1) Falsehood
2) Contradictions
3) Distortions and corruption
4) God ordering massacres, genocide, human sacrifices, cannibalism
5) Almost anything that can be scientifically attested is wrong
What would be your framework for deciding a piece of work as belonging to a given individual? Supposing in 300 years time someone were to discover a piece of writing that purports to be the work of Einstein. How would we go about proving or disproving this as Einstein's work, given that we have copies of his genuine work and we know the high standard of his mind.
Can someone come up with a framework for assessing works that are claimed to be god-inspired? Can this framework be applied to the bible and the Ko-ran?
To my mind, these books are consistent with the minds of primitive bronze-age people with very little knowledge of the reality around them.
There should be no superlative grand enough to describe the work of such a being. But is that what we find in the bible? Are there any grand truths in the bible? If it is the inspiration of god, how did god transfer his thoughts into the minds of the writers of the bible? Was it through visions, trances, hallucinations, audible voices, hand-holding, telepathy etc. If this really was the work of god, would you expect the following in god's own work;
1) Falsehood
2) Contradictions
3) Distortions and corruption
4) God ordering massacres, genocide, human sacrifices, cannibalism
5) Almost anything that can be scientifically attested is wrong
What would be your framework for deciding a piece of work as belonging to a given individual? Supposing in 300 years time someone were to discover a piece of writing that purports to be the work of Einstein. How would we go about proving or disproving this as Einstein's work, given that we have copies of his genuine work and we know the high standard of his mind.
Can someone come up with a framework for assessing works that are claimed to be god-inspired? Can this framework be applied to the bible and the Ko-ran?
To my mind, these books are consistent with the minds of primitive bronze-age people with very little knowledge of the reality around them.
it is what you believe whether it is wrong or whether it is right.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
True evidence that a bible-infected mind is incapable of thought.
QUOTE (ozell @ Jul 29 2008, 04:06 AM)
it is what you believe whether it is wrong or whether it is right.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Well, you are the 1st honest Christian. =)
QUOTE (pointus @ Jul 29 2008, 04:26 AM)
...
True evidence that a bible-infected mind is incapable of thought.
True evidence that a bible-infected mind is incapable of thought.
your logic of truth is very unsound "pointus"
QUOTE
Dear Atheist (aka "pointus")
There has never been a painting without a Painter!
There has never been a building without a Builder!
There has never been a creation without a Creator!
QUOTE (Dani @ Jul 29 2008, 03:03 PM)
There has never been a creation without a Creator!
If everything must have a creator, then all creators must have creators, so there must be an infinite amount of creators.
First it is that faith is for wimps. A "Pointus" thought: "a bible-infected mind is incapable of thought"
Now up: the trump card of the atheist: "Who made God?" and usually not with a question mark… but always as a statement. In Neal's case "infinite creators".
You gamble your very soul on the belief that there is no higher card than the trump card you have played, that this question cannot be answered.
The answer is simple. (If you are not reasonable - it is not my business.)
Does space have an end?
If it does, if there is a brick wall at the end of space that reads "The End", I want to know what is behind the brick wall.
BY FAITH you are forced to believe that no matter in which direction you set off, space will never end. It goes on and on forever and ever.
Space has no beginning. It has no end. You have no choice but to accept that fact by faith.
God has no beginning and no end. But, with God we have more information than we do with space.
If everything must have a creator, then all creators must have creators, so there must be an infinite amount of creators.
Now up: the trump card of the atheist: "Who made God?" and usually not with a question mark… but always as a statement. In Neal's case "infinite creators".
You gamble your very soul on the belief that there is no higher card than the trump card you have played, that this question cannot be answered.
The answer is simple. (If you are not reasonable - it is not my business.)
Does space have an end?
If it does, if there is a brick wall at the end of space that reads "The End", I want to know what is behind the brick wall.
BY FAITH you are forced to believe that no matter in which direction you set off, space will never end. It goes on and on forever and ever.
Space has no beginning. It has no end. You have no choice but to accept that fact by faith.
God has no beginning and no end. But, with God we have more information than we do with space.
QUOTE (Neal @ Jul 29 2008, 03:31 PM)
QUOTE (Dani @ Jul 29 2008, 03:03 PM)
There has never been a creation without a Creator!
If everything must have a creator, then all creators must have creators, so there must be an infinite amount of creators.
QUOTE (Dani @ Jul 29 2008, 03:03 PM)
QUOTE (pointus @ Jul 29 2008, 04:26 AM)
...
True evidence that a bible-infected mind is incapable of thought.
True evidence that a bible-infected mind is incapable of thought.
your logic of truth is very unsound "pointus"
QUOTE
Dear Atheist (aka "pointus")
There has never been a painting without a Painter!
There has never been a building without a Builder!
There has never been a creation without a Creator!
Pretty good reasoning for a "bible infected mind" I'd say!!!! Now if Pointus could give us an appropriate rebuttal from the inner spaces of his mind?!!!
QUOTE (Dani @ Jul 29 2008, 04:35 PM)
First it is that faith is for wimps. A "Pointus" thought: "a bible-infected mind is incapable of thought"
Now up: the trump card of the atheist: "Who made God?" and usually not with a question mark… but always as a statement. In Neal's case "infinite creators".
You gamble your very soul on the belief that there is no higher card than the trump card you have played, that this question cannot be answered.
The answer is simple. (If you are not reasonable - it is not my business.)
Does space have an end?
If it does, if there is a brick wall at the end of space that reads "The End", I want to know what is behind the brick wall.
BY FAITH you are forced to believe that no matter in which direction you set off, space will never end. It goes on and on forever and ever.
Space has no beginning. It has no end. You have no choice but to accept that fact by faith.
God has no beginning and no end. But, with God we have more information than we do with space.
Now up: the trump card of the atheist: "Who made God?" and usually not with a question mark… but always as a statement. In Neal's case "infinite creators".
You gamble your very soul on the belief that there is no higher card than the trump card you have played, that this question cannot be answered.
The answer is simple. (If you are not reasonable - it is not my business.)
Does space have an end?
If it does, if there is a brick wall at the end of space that reads "The End", I want to know what is behind the brick wall.
BY FAITH you are forced to believe that no matter in which direction you set off, space will never end. It goes on and on forever and ever.
Space has no beginning. It has no end. You have no choice but to accept that fact by faith.
God has no beginning and no end. But, with God we have more information than we do with space.
Then you have to make an exception.
You can't say, "Everything has a creator."
You have to say, "Everything, except God, has a creator." Capiche?
QUOTE (Neal @ Jul 29 2008, 04:47 PM)
Then you have to make an exception. No I don't.
You can't say, "Everything has a creator." I didn't. You did.
You have to say, "Everything, except God, has a creator." Capiche? No I don't. Neal you are lousy at representing atheism. Your logic is flawed.
You can't say, "Everything has a creator." I didn't. You did.
You have to say, "Everything, except God, has a creator." Capiche? No I don't. Neal you are lousy at representing atheism. Your logic is flawed.
you would do well to quote me better. I said "There has never been a creation without a Creator!"
So, what you want me to understand about your god Neal is that you identify him as a "thing".
man can make things. wooden things. metal things. whatever the lastest idol can possible be... man has unlimited capacity to make things. But man makes things, out of other things (material that already exists).
Only God, through His Word, calls into existence something material from absolutely nothing. This is Creation.
God is not a "thing". You are stuck in the time domain. God is not stuck in the time domain. He created time. God has no beginning and no end.
Continuing on the same principle: building/builder; painting/painter - it applies to the existance of God.
On this earth, everything that is made has a maker.
When I look at creation, how can I know there was a Creator? I cannot see Him. I cannot hear Him. Cannot taste Him, cannot touch or smell Him. How can I know that He exists?
BECAUSE Creation proves beyond the smallest doubt, that there is a Creator.
You cannot have a creation without a Creator.
I do not need faith to believe in a Creator. All I need are eyes that can see and a brain that works.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen (by eyes that can see), being understood (by a brain that works) by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20)
QUOTE (Neal @ Jul 29 2008, 05:47 PM)
QUOTE (Dani @ Jul 29 2008, 04:35 PM)
First it is that faith is for wimps. A "Pointus" thought: "a bible-infected mind is incapable of thought"
Now up: the trump card of the atheist: "Who made God?" and usually not with a question mark… but always as a statement. In Neal's case "infinite creators".
You gamble your very soul on the belief that there is no higher card than the trump card you have played, that this question cannot be answered.
The answer is simple. (If you are not reasonable - it is not my business.)
Does space have an end?
If it does, if there is a brick wall at the end of space that reads "The End", I want to know what is behind the brick wall.
BY FAITH you are forced to believe that no matter in which direction you set off, space will never end. It goes on and on forever and ever.
Space has no beginning. It has no end. You have no choice but to accept that fact by faith.
God has no beginning and no end. But, with God we have more information than we do with space.
Now up: the trump card of the atheist: "Who made God?" and usually not with a question mark… but always as a statement. In Neal's case "infinite creators".
You gamble your very soul on the belief that there is no higher card than the trump card you have played, that this question cannot be answered.
The answer is simple. (If you are not reasonable - it is not my business.)
Does space have an end?
If it does, if there is a brick wall at the end of space that reads "The End", I want to know what is behind the brick wall.
BY FAITH you are forced to believe that no matter in which direction you set off, space will never end. It goes on and on forever and ever.
Space has no beginning. It has no end. You have no choice but to accept that fact by faith.
God has no beginning and no end. But, with God we have more information than we do with space.
Then you have to make an exception.
You can't say, "Everything has a creator."
You have to say, "Everything, except God, has a creator." Capiche?
The creator in this sense we call him God sub 1
even in the bible, for god to be a jealous God, he has to recognized that there are other gods out there.
So this creator, god sub 1 is the creator of all of these other gods (sub 2 to the nth power)
This God sub 1 is the one who created such line "everything has a creator"
If those who create but must also allow what he creates as laws to govern him/her/it then that's an oxymoron statement.
he who creates "everything has a creator" theory, law or whatever you call it does not let his own theory, law or whatever you call it to reflect back at him because he is the creator of it and he stands right before it.
complicated but yet, so easy to grasp.
if we tend to put up waste less posts like this it just shows me where this persons mind is at
so you feel god gave us the bible and the koran
hear is my twist since we are tending to put up posts in this forum that have no fruit of the spirit to were members can grow
yes this is a debating forum were you are allowed to debate
hear is what i want the op to respond to and only the op with out any one standing up for him or defending him
give me hard proof that god gave us the koran and i dont want what you hear on the news and what is left on the inter net
i want hard facts
the koran is not off god we only have one god their cant be two gods other wise i might as well go back to my old life style and throw what i have held close to my heart out the window and tell all my mates who are born again christians and still serving time in our jails that god does not exist and we need to know take a closser look at the koran
so you feel what mohammad had to say is god inspired ? if what mohammad had to say due to what he left in the koran can you explain to us all why osama bin laden hates us and why he tends to harm us if you feel that the koran is god inspired
do you enjoy seeing a women being beaten do you feel that its ok to stone a person to death ? do you like how the muslims treat our sisters to were they have to cover them selves and you can only see there eyes are you ok with an older man being maried to a 9yr old girl ?
i feel you need to get the koran and then ask for the hadiths as well and go over what the koran has to say and see if you can abide by what is said in the koran
i can do a re search on the inter net since everything is at our finger tips
oh before you respond i have read the koran and the hadiths they are no longer in my possesion i burnt them i also have muslim friends who are born again christians i have learnt a lot from these guys
as i said i only want the op to respond to what i have left
did god inspire the koran what a joke its like me asking you were do you get your insperation from
God bless from damo
so you feel god gave us the bible and the koran
hear is my twist since we are tending to put up posts in this forum that have no fruit of the spirit to were members can grow
yes this is a debating forum were you are allowed to debate
hear is what i want the op to respond to and only the op with out any one standing up for him or defending him
give me hard proof that god gave us the koran and i dont want what you hear on the news and what is left on the inter net
i want hard facts
the koran is not off god we only have one god their cant be two gods other wise i might as well go back to my old life style and throw what i have held close to my heart out the window and tell all my mates who are born again christians and still serving time in our jails that god does not exist and we need to know take a closser look at the koran
so you feel what mohammad had to say is god inspired ? if what mohammad had to say due to what he left in the koran can you explain to us all why osama bin laden hates us and why he tends to harm us if you feel that the koran is god inspired
do you enjoy seeing a women being beaten do you feel that its ok to stone a person to death ? do you like how the muslims treat our sisters to were they have to cover them selves and you can only see there eyes are you ok with an older man being maried to a 9yr old girl ?
i feel you need to get the koran and then ask for the hadiths as well and go over what the koran has to say and see if you can abide by what is said in the koran
i can do a re search on the inter net since everything is at our finger tips
oh before you respond i have read the koran and the hadiths they are no longer in my possesion i burnt them i also have muslim friends who are born again christians i have learnt a lot from these guys
as i said i only want the op to respond to what i have left
did god inspire the koran what a joke its like me asking you were do you get your insperation from
God bless from damo
Greetings Pointus--
I do not believe we've had the opportunity to meet... Greetings again, I hope you had a good night sleep...
My one question:
Have you read the bible (and/or the koran) from cover to cover?
QUOTE (Dani @ Jul 29 2008, 10:33 PM)
QUOTE (Neal @ Jul 29 2008, 04:47 PM)
Then you have to make an exception. No I don't.
You can't say, "Everything has a creator." I didn't. You did.
You have to say, "Everything, except God, has a creator." Capiche? No I don't. Neal you are lousy at representing atheism. Your logic is flawed.
You can't say, "Everything has a creator." I didn't. You did.
You have to say, "Everything, except God, has a creator." Capiche? No I don't. Neal you are lousy at representing atheism. Your logic is flawed.
So if not everything, except God, has a creator, are you implying God has a creator?
It's pretty simple. If God is defined to be the ultimate creator, then he himself cannot have a creator.
QUOTE (damo7)
give me hard proof that god gave us the koran and i dont want what you hear on the news and what is left on the inter net
i want hard facts
i want hard facts
True enough, God wrote the Qu'ran as much as he wrote the Bible. Or none at all.
After all, it wasn't God that dictated Mohamed to write the Qu'ran. It was the angel Gabriel. And the angel Gabriel ain't God, as we all know.
Neal C.
QUOTE (Neal @ Jul 30 2008, 12:54 PM)
QUOTE (Dani @ Jul 29 2008, 10:33 PM)
QUOTE (Neal @ Jul 29 2008, 04:47 PM)
Then you have to make an exception. No I don't.
You can't say, "Everything has a creator." I didn't. You did.
You have to say, "Everything, except God, has a creator." Capiche? No I don't. Neal you are lousy at representing atheism. Your logic is flawed.
You can't say, "Everything has a creator." I didn't. You did.
You have to say, "Everything, except God, has a creator." Capiche? No I don't. Neal you are lousy at representing atheism. Your logic is flawed.
So if not everything, except God, has a creator, are you implying God has a creator?
It's pretty simple. If God is defined to be the ultimate creator, then he himself cannot have a creator.
Let me know when you get to the brick wall at the end of space.
I am going to copy and paste from a debate I had with a Muslim regarding the Quran.
Muslim source materials report that at least four different versions of the Qur’an existed before the political order was given to have them burned. (Refer to "Al-Tamhid 2, 247).
The four versions were written by people who knew Muhammad in person. Each person created their unique version of the Qur’an. Based on Muslims sources, the differences were serious enough to cause Muslims to be divided. The Islamic source "K. al Masahif" reports differences so serious as to cause one Muslim group to call another group heretics:
During the reign of `Uthman, teachers were teaching this or that reading to their students. When the students met and disagreed about the reading, they reported the differences to their teachings. They would defend their readings, condemning the others as heretical.'[Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al Masahif]
If Muhammad could consistently foretell the future, then the Qur’an could be regarded as coming from God. However, this has not been demonstrated. The politically motivated book burning party of early Muslim leaders confirms the Qur’an is flawed and not from God.
_________________
Muslim source materials report that at least four different versions of the Qur’an existed before the political order was given to have them burned. (Refer to "Al-Tamhid 2, 247).
The four versions were written by people who knew Muhammad in person. Each person created their unique version of the Qur’an. Based on Muslims sources, the differences were serious enough to cause Muslims to be divided. The Islamic source "K. al Masahif" reports differences so serious as to cause one Muslim group to call another group heretics:
During the reign of `Uthman, teachers were teaching this or that reading to their students. When the students met and disagreed about the reading, they reported the differences to their teachings. They would defend their readings, condemning the others as heretical.'[Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al Masahif]
If Muhammad could consistently foretell the future, then the Qur’an could be regarded as coming from God. However, this has not been demonstrated. The politically motivated book burning party of early Muslim leaders confirms the Qur’an is flawed and not from God.
_________________
The Bible is composed of many books by many authors who wrote as the Spirit of God gave utterance, and this over thousands of years. The unity of the bible is uncanny and other-wordly. There is nothing remotely as authoritive as the bible.
The Koran was written much later and by only one man. And his writings have no proof of direct inspiration. There is no corroberation. They are in the same league as Joseph Smith. This is a far lower echelon to the much older and far more inspirational bible. The Koran is a spin-off book that relies on the bible in the first place. Did I mention Joseph Smith?
<><
John
The Koran was written much later and by only one man. And his writings have no proof of direct inspiration. There is no corroberation. They are in the same league as Joseph Smith. This is a far lower echelon to the much older and far more inspirational bible. The Koran is a spin-off book that relies on the bible in the first place. Did I mention Joseph Smith?
<><
John
QUOTE (Adullam @ Jul 31 2008, 06:57 PM)
The Bible is composed of many books by many authors who wrote as the Spirit of God gave utterance, and this over thousands of years. The unity of the bible is uncanny and other-wordly. There is nothing remotely as authoritive as the bible.
It's good to know that it's not who wrote the Bible that matters.
For example if I wrote the Bible, 2,000 years ago, it would just be as equally believable.
Remember, it's not who wrote the Bible that makes the difference - but the exact structure of words and sentences that make the Bible as unique as it is today.
QUOTE (Adulla)
The Koran was written much later and by only one man.
Wasn't it "inspired by an angel?"
This is the difference between inspiration from God and from an angel. God should be infinitely more intelligent.
nah i say mohammad was smoking that funny green weed to get his insperation
you cant tell me that he had a visitation by an angel
the koran is not authentic
the bible though is authentic and evidence has been found to prove that what we are reading christ really walked this earth
mohammad would have been smashed of his face to come up with the hog wash muslims fall for
i guess we will see when god decides to judge us weather the koran is god inspired
God bless from damo
Imo, Christians and Muslims should be friends with 1 another. They're in on it together with the fight against atheists/atheism.
I think that the deity influenced the Koran, Bible, Bhuddism, the more benevolent Native American Religions, and some of Greek Mythology.
They have their right to freedom of and freedom from religion. A theocracy, even a Christian one, is something I never want to see in America.
As an ex-Athiest, I can tell you that they all feel hated and persecuted by the religious. If you really want to "wage war" on their lack of beliefs, love them.
QUOTE
Imo, Christians and Muslims should be friends with 1 another. They're in on it together with the fight against atheists/atheism.
They have their right to freedom of and freedom from religion. A theocracy, even a Christian one, is something I never want to see in America.
As an ex-Athiest, I can tell you that they all feel hated and persecuted by the religious. If you really want to "wage war" on their lack of beliefs, love them.
QUOTE (AppyGroove @ Jul 30 2008, 08:09 AM)
Greetings Pointus--
I do not believe we've had the opportunity to meet... Greetings again, I hope you had a good night sleep...
My one question:
Have you read the bible (and/or the koran) from cover to cover?
I do not believe we've had the opportunity to meet... Greetings again, I hope you had a good night sleep...
My one question:
Have you read the bible (and/or the koran) from cover to cover?
Good question Appy!
Though I do not think that by just reading something from cover to cover translates into a life changing experience or would qualify one as an expert!
People read the bible everyday and then without saying it audibly declare " I am not going to have this man reign over me".
QUOTE (Neal @ Jul 30 2008, 12:56 PM)
True enough, God wrote the Qu'ran as much as he wrote the Bible. Or none at all.
Aren't you conveniently leaving out some other choices? (read: false dilemma)
QUOTE
After all, it wasn't God that dictated Mohamed to write the Qu'ran. It was the angel Gabriel. And the angel Gabriel ain't God, as we all know.
The being that dictated to Muhammad claimed to be Jibril (well, he didn't identify itself at first). However, anyone who actually study the appearance of Jibril and those of Gabriel and other angels in the Bible, you will see a lot of differences.
Even if Mohammed received his messages from an angel, the Bible tells us that Satan can appear as an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 11:14 (NIV)
14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
There is another verse that relates to this topic:
Galatians 1:6-9 (New International Version)
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
And now here are just a few verses that dictate violence in the Quran, further proving it is not from God.
Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Furthermore if anyone needs more information on Mohammed and Islam please check out this website:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm
It explains how Mohammed, killed, raped, plundered, and even went so far as to marrying a 6 year old girl and consuming the marriage when she was 9 years of age. The biggest mistake one can make is to buy into the propaganda that Islam is a religion of peace.
2 Corinthians 11:14 (NIV)
14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
There is another verse that relates to this topic:
Galatians 1:6-9 (New International Version)
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
And now here are just a few verses that dictate violence in the Quran, further proving it is not from God.
Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Furthermore if anyone needs more information on Mohammed and Islam please check out this website:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm
It explains how Mohammed, killed, raped, plundered, and even went so far as to marrying a 6 year old girl and consuming the marriage when she was 9 years of age. The biggest mistake one can make is to buy into the propaganda that Islam is a religion of peace.
Islam has not had a Revolution/Rennisance like Christianity yet. Imagine, if you will, that you suddenly get sucked back in time and land in the Mid-East during the Crusades in from of a Christian army. If you said something like "Uh...are you sure Jesus would have approved of killing babies and torching cities?" they would probably respond by calling you an infidel and claiming that Satan sent you to corrupt the faith. Sounds rather like radical Islam.
Gabriel - Jibril
They sound alike.
Like Jah and Yah.
Pronounce Gabriel with a soft G, like Jabriel, but Jabriel takes the emphasis off the G.
You have a hard G, as in ghetto, or a soft G, as in cage, or both, as in guage.
But, your talking about a separate religion that was started by Hagar and the Hagarites.
Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her [Hagar], I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen 16:11 And the angelof the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
The angel multiplied her seed, but the Lord multiplied the seed of Abraham. Both Hagar and Abraham are similar in blessings of multitudes.
But, was the angel that talked with Hagar named Gabriel? I don't think so, but that brings up another bone.
The curse placed by the LORD on Eve in the garden was 'I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception.'
But, that also brings out the similarities in the names Ishmael and Israel.
The princes of the earth came from Ishmael and the kings came from Israel.
They sound alike.
Like Jah and Yah.
Pronounce Gabriel with a soft G, like Jabriel, but Jabriel takes the emphasis off the G.
You have a hard G, as in ghetto, or a soft G, as in cage, or both, as in guage.
But, your talking about a separate religion that was started by Hagar and the Hagarites.
Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her [Hagar], I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen 16:11 And the angelof the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
The angel multiplied her seed, but the Lord multiplied the seed of Abraham. Both Hagar and Abraham are similar in blessings of multitudes.
But, was the angel that talked with Hagar named Gabriel? I don't think so, but that brings up another bone.
The curse placed by the LORD on Eve in the garden was 'I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception.'
But, that also brings out the similarities in the names Ishmael and Israel.
The princes of the earth came from Ishmael and the kings came from Israel.
QUOTE (FreedomPower @ Aug 1 2008, 08:38 PM)
Even if Mohammed received his messages from an angel, the Bible tells us that Satan can appear as an angel of light.
That's fine, now if you have any proof that SATAN was the angel Gabriel, that'd be relevant.
Edit: Or Jibril.
QUOTE (yaqub @ Aug 1 2008, 07:46 PM)
QUOTE (Neal @ Jul 30 2008, 12:56 PM)
True enough, God wrote the Qu'ran as much as he wrote the Bible. Or none at all.
Aren't you conveniently leaving out some other choices? (read: false dilemma)
What other choices?
That God wrote 50% of the Bible/Qu'ran and humans wrote the other 50%? Imo, it's either all or nothing.
QUOTE (Neal @ Aug 2 2008, 09:37 AM)
QUOTE (FreedomPower @ Aug 1 2008, 08:38 PM)
Even if Mohammed received his messages from an angel, the Bible tells us that Satan can appear as an angel of light.
That's fine, now if you have any proof that SATAN was the angel Gabriel, that'd be relevant.
Edit: Or Jibril.
No I don't have proof, but I have studied the origin of the Quran and if you would like to debate on that issue then I will be happy to. Just don't make wild claims that God inspired both the Bible and the Quran because both of them are the complete opposite from each other.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:
Forgive me for being Honest and to say;
To compare Islam, and Christianity and Judaism as if both of God, would deny the reality on the Ground.
Without Oil, Islam is the worlds basket case as to prosperity and or blessings of God.
We have a clear sign of how God treats feels about Muslims, as to Islam and its relationship to Israel.
Time and time again, the forces of Islam of 250 million people of Middle east, do Attack and seek to destroy the Little nation of Israel of 3 million
So 3 million Jews always defeat and humiliate the forces of 250 million Arab Muslims, this fact, should tell us something aboiut Gods will, either God likes Israel winning, or God wants Islam to lose.
And as far as world power related to Islam; Islamic people are the most defenseless, and powerless culture on the planet. I blame a lot of it; on Islamic absence of a " work ethic" believing all righteous wealth is inherited, and earned weath is a curse.
If it wasn't for Christians societies selling them arms and weapons, Islamic soldiers would be using Knives and swords, with a few Muskets. Now Pakistan and Iran now make Missiles, yet to be proven they work well.
Only Katusha Rockets being shot at Israel is a Modern weapon, and China of 1 ST century could do this.
God, as to, Loving Israel and Islam equally? not, God must Love Israel, to allow them to win battle after battle against Islamic forces in the middle east.
Either God loves Israel and wants Israel winning wars. or God of Islam, has not power in warfare to determine a the outcome winner.
Israel of 3 million, standing up against 250 million Arabs, and winning ever time: this Must be of God, and Gods will.
I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.
Forgive me for being Honest and to say;
To compare Islam, and Christianity and Judaism as if both of God, would deny the reality on the Ground.
Without Oil, Islam is the worlds basket case as to prosperity and or blessings of God.
We have a clear sign of how God treats feels about Muslims, as to Islam and its relationship to Israel.
Time and time again, the forces of Islam of 250 million people of Middle east, do Attack and seek to destroy the Little nation of Israel of 3 million
So 3 million Jews always defeat and humiliate the forces of 250 million Arab Muslims, this fact, should tell us something aboiut Gods will, either God likes Israel winning, or God wants Islam to lose.
And as far as world power related to Islam; Islamic people are the most defenseless, and powerless culture on the planet. I blame a lot of it; on Islamic absence of a " work ethic" believing all righteous wealth is inherited, and earned weath is a curse.
If it wasn't for Christians societies selling them arms and weapons, Islamic soldiers would be using Knives and swords, with a few Muskets. Now Pakistan and Iran now make Missiles, yet to be proven they work well.
Only Katusha Rockets being shot at Israel is a Modern weapon, and China of 1 ST century could do this.
God, as to, Loving Israel and Islam equally? not, God must Love Israel, to allow them to win battle after battle against Islamic forces in the middle east.
Either God loves Israel and wants Israel winning wars. or God of Islam, has not power in warfare to determine a the outcome winner.
Israel of 3 million, standing up against 250 million Arabs, and winning ever time: this Must be of God, and Gods will.
I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.
And to say that Islam is inspired by God is to reject Jesus Christ, because Mohamed clearly stated that Jesus was only a man.
Not completely. Many of the stories and commands are the same, but rituals and life-style orders differ somewhat.
QUOTE (Southernguy @ Aug 2 2008, 07:17 PM)
Not completely. Many of the stories and commands are the same, but rituals and life-style orders differ somewhat.
Completely different. Have you ever read the Qur'an or studied the history of Islam? Some things might appear to be the same but that is because Mohammed plagiarized from the Gospels and the Torah. It surprises me that people on this forum who call themselves Christians would entertain the possibility that Islam is from God. Let me tell you, I have studied it, I have studied the life of Mohammed and it made me sick, he is the complete opposite from Jesus.
Yes, I have. Muhammed is not the Islamic equivalent of Jesus, think more of a old testament prophet. I once thought Islam was evil as well, but met some kind and friendly Muslims that changed my view of it. There are good Muslims and bad Muslims, just like there are good Christians and bad Christians.
the muslims i talk to tend to hate what osama bin laden and his followers are doing it has given them also a bad name i have muslim friends my self who are born again christians and they dont sit in the comforts of their homes they reach out to their brothers and sisters cought up in this rubbish and it can be hard for these brothers and sisters in the lord who have denounced what the koran has to say to how a muslim should live
i also read the koran and the hadiths and i can tel you its nothing compared to the jesus we know
the koran is not authentic as the gospel is
yes there are good muslims and yes there are bad muslims and yes ther are bad christians just like there are good christians
the church has blown it big time today many have fallen due to what is going on from with in
there are also muslims that want to mame us and kill us
when i am with my fiancee i have to always be alert were we go bombs have gone off
the philippines has changed and so has manila when you get of the plane you are greeted by the army and security gaurds and sniffer dogs you are searched when ever you enter a shopping mal and when you board a bus or sit down for a brake you are always checking to see if there are hidden packages never can you unwind you are always on alert
in most parts of bacolod there are gaurds gaurding the communitys before you enter a community your car is searched the gaurds work close with the army and the police the security gaurds cary machaine guns and they are loaded no rubber bullets
were i was sitting with my fiancee weighting for her friend my fiancee told me 40 people were killed two bombs went off
there are signs in their language and in english saying be care full
so you tell me is this a peace full religon
i dont live in the comforts of my home or do i listen to what the news has to say or what the internet has to say
i talk to the ones that have given there lives to god and in the jails in bacolod and manila they have arrested muslims who go out of there way to mame the filapinos
my eyes were opened too
can you show me in the new testament were jesus orders us to do this ?
this is not a peace full religon god says hate the sin not the person we go the opposite hate the person and support the sin just look at how the catholic church has embraced islam should we bow to this false god and call him a god ?
i also got a praise report to share my old worship leader lives in indonesia with his family they were invloved in an accident the car was insured no one was hurt but they were all shocked the driver is a christian muslim he drives my friend and his family to apointments they were comming back from a service and the police in indonesia dont tend to like us christians my friend told the police who they were and told them they were christians this time the police were not so mean they took my friend his wife and there kids to the police station got them food and brought out the ps2 for his youngest son as his son wittnessed everything and was in shock the police officer set up the play station 2 until some one came to pick them up and made sure the family were ok gods hand is on my friend and his family
churches in indonesia are bieng burnt or knocked down christians are being persecuted and you tend to support this religon and false god i know what god has done with mohammad and i know were mohammad is and i sure you he is not in heaven their is only one place for people like this and its hell
this is not a peace ful religon
God bless from damo
i also read the koran and the hadiths and i can tel you its nothing compared to the jesus we know
the koran is not authentic as the gospel is
yes there are good muslims and yes there are bad muslims and yes ther are bad christians just like there are good christians
the church has blown it big time today many have fallen due to what is going on from with in
there are also muslims that want to mame us and kill us
when i am with my fiancee i have to always be alert were we go bombs have gone off
the philippines has changed and so has manila when you get of the plane you are greeted by the army and security gaurds and sniffer dogs you are searched when ever you enter a shopping mal and when you board a bus or sit down for a brake you are always checking to see if there are hidden packages never can you unwind you are always on alert
in most parts of bacolod there are gaurds gaurding the communitys before you enter a community your car is searched the gaurds work close with the army and the police the security gaurds cary machaine guns and they are loaded no rubber bullets
were i was sitting with my fiancee weighting for her friend my fiancee told me 40 people were killed two bombs went off
there are signs in their language and in english saying be care full
so you tell me is this a peace full religon
i dont live in the comforts of my home or do i listen to what the news has to say or what the internet has to say
i talk to the ones that have given there lives to god and in the jails in bacolod and manila they have arrested muslims who go out of there way to mame the filapinos
my eyes were opened too
can you show me in the new testament were jesus orders us to do this ?
this is not a peace full religon god says hate the sin not the person we go the opposite hate the person and support the sin just look at how the catholic church has embraced islam should we bow to this false god and call him a god ?
i also got a praise report to share my old worship leader lives in indonesia with his family they were invloved in an accident the car was insured no one was hurt but they were all shocked the driver is a christian muslim he drives my friend and his family to apointments they were comming back from a service and the police in indonesia dont tend to like us christians my friend told the police who they were and told them they were christians this time the police were not so mean they took my friend his wife and there kids to the police station got them food and brought out the ps2 for his youngest son as his son wittnessed everything and was in shock the police officer set up the play station 2 until some one came to pick them up and made sure the family were ok gods hand is on my friend and his family
churches in indonesia are bieng burnt or knocked down christians are being persecuted and you tend to support this religon and false god i know what god has done with mohammad and i know were mohammad is and i sure you he is not in heaven their is only one place for people like this and its hell
this is not a peace ful religon
God bless from damo
QUOTE (raysondawn @ Aug 1 2008, 05:20 PM)
QUOTE (AppyGroove @ Jul 30 2008, 08:09 AM)
Greetings Pointus--
I do not believe we've had the opportunity to meet... Greetings again, I hope you had a good night sleep...
My one question:
Have you read the bible (and/or the koran) from cover to cover?
I do not believe we've had the opportunity to meet... Greetings again, I hope you had a good night sleep...
My one question:
Have you read the bible (and/or the koran) from cover to cover?
Good question Appy!
Though I do not think that by just reading something from cover to cover translates into a life changing experience or would qualify one as an expert!
People read the bible everyday and then without saying it audibly declare " I am not going to have this man reign over me".
I concur....
But if people say all those things and have not read it... then he's wasting our time... BTW, where is 'mr. post and leave' ?
Hi,
Just to answer FreedomPower's statements regarding the Quran verses
This verse is informing the believers not to transgress limits because they should know that "God hears and knows all". So a true Muslim is God-conscious when defending the rights of others and does not overstep his limits in applying justice.
If you look at the following two verses (2:217) & (2:218), it mentions that:
(2:217) - "They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein."
(2:218) - "Lo! those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape the persecution) and strive in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Fighting is a social necessity if your freedom is at stake. It is vital that one fights to defend themselves, their rights, to avoid persecution. Thus the Quran asks Mohammed and his followers to fight for their freedom.
The Quran reminds them if you do not fight to defend yourselves, they (the Pagans) will turn you away from God, make you disbelieve, and will drive your people away. It affirms to be persecuted is worse than being killed, and says they (the Pagans) will not stop fighting you until you convert from Islam to Pagan belief. Thus from the other side it was literally a case of "convert from Islam or die". The command from the Quran is to stand firm against the Pagans.
If you look at this verse (3:56) & (3:57), it is mentioned that:
(3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, i will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
(3:57)- "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."
What it means is that :
(3:56) - As for those who disbelieve in Allah and in His messenger Muhammad, Allah shall chastise them with a terrible chastisement in this world and the Hereafter, In this world by exposing them physically to the sword and the capitation tax, loss of health, kids, wealth etc. and mentally, by exposing them to many psychological disorders. In the Hereafter by throwing them into the Eternal Fire. And they will have no helpers to save them from Allah's punishment in this world or in the Hereafter.
(3:57) - But as for those who believe in Allah, the Scripture and His messenger Muhammad, who do righteous deeds, and do good works sincerely between them and their Lord, Allah will pay them their wages in full. Allah will pay them their reward on the Day of Judgment. Allah does not love the wrong-doers, the idolaters, with their transgressions and association of partners or son with Allah. Allah does not love the wrong-doers means that He will chastise them severely on the Day of Judgment.
Note that during the time of this revelation, the Kafirs were the enemies of Islam. They are those people who fight against the religious people trying to stop the spread of message. It is not about the peaceful people at all. Any one can have any faith without fear. Nobody will kill him, if the person is peaceful. That is the teaching of islam.
Lets look at verse (4:74),(4:75) & (4:76):
(4:74)
[b]
YUSUFALI: Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
PICKTHAL: Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.
SHAKIR: Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
(4:75)
YUSUFALI: And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
PICKTHAL: How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender!
SHAKIR: And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say: Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper.
(4:76)
YUSUFALI: Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
PICKTHAL: Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.
SHAKIR: Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
What verse (4:74) & (4:75) states is that those who fight for God's cause would be rewarded whether they are victorious or slain. Fighting for God's cause includes the liberation of the oppressed, meaning the helpless men and women who are yearning and praying for freedom. The believers fight for God's cause, and the disbelievers fight for the sake of their idols. An idol may be taken conceptually. For example, evil or greed may figuratively be construed as idols. The believers should put all their trust in God the Almighty and Powerful and fear not the disbelievers and their evil plans. Evil plans are always inferior to goodness.
Verse (4:76) states Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
Again, lets look at couple of verses before and after (4:88), (4:89), (4:90) & (4:91)
(4:88)
YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.
SHAKIR: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
(4:89)
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
(4:90)
YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
PICKTHAL: Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.
SHAKIR: Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
(4:91)
YUSUFALI: Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.
PICKTHAL: Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
SHAKIR: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.
Honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.
Do read up on http://faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed.html
Also guys, as an advice, in future if you post up verses from the Quran, do read up a couple of verses before and after it. Please refrain from making own conclusions just by reading 1 verse.
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Just to answer FreedomPower's statements regarding the Quran verses
QUOTE (FreedomPower @ Aug 1 2008, 09:38 PM)
Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
This verse is informing the believers not to transgress limits because they should know that "God hears and knows all". So a true Muslim is God-conscious when defending the rights of others and does not overstep his limits in applying justice.
QUOTE (FreedomPower @ Aug 1 2008, 09:38 PM)
Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
If you look at the following two verses (2:217) & (2:218), it mentions that:
(2:217) - "They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein."
(2:218) - "Lo! those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape the persecution) and strive in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Fighting is a social necessity if your freedom is at stake. It is vital that one fights to defend themselves, their rights, to avoid persecution. Thus the Quran asks Mohammed and his followers to fight for their freedom.
The Quran reminds them if you do not fight to defend yourselves, they (the Pagans) will turn you away from God, make you disbelieve, and will drive your people away. It affirms to be persecuted is worse than being killed, and says they (the Pagans) will not stop fighting you until you convert from Islam to Pagan belief. Thus from the other side it was literally a case of "convert from Islam or die". The command from the Quran is to stand firm against the Pagans.
QUOTE (FreedomPower @ Aug 1 2008, 09:38 PM)
Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
If you look at this verse (3:56) & (3:57), it is mentioned that:
(3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, i will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
(3:57)- "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."
What it means is that :
(3:56) - As for those who disbelieve in Allah and in His messenger Muhammad, Allah shall chastise them with a terrible chastisement in this world and the Hereafter, In this world by exposing them physically to the sword and the capitation tax, loss of health, kids, wealth etc. and mentally, by exposing them to many psychological disorders. In the Hereafter by throwing them into the Eternal Fire. And they will have no helpers to save them from Allah's punishment in this world or in the Hereafter.
(3:57) - But as for those who believe in Allah, the Scripture and His messenger Muhammad, who do righteous deeds, and do good works sincerely between them and their Lord, Allah will pay them their wages in full. Allah will pay them their reward on the Day of Judgment. Allah does not love the wrong-doers, the idolaters, with their transgressions and association of partners or son with Allah. Allah does not love the wrong-doers means that He will chastise them severely on the Day of Judgment.
QUOTE (FreedomPower @ Aug 1 2008, 09:38 PM)
Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
Note that during the time of this revelation, the Kafirs were the enemies of Islam. They are those people who fight against the religious people trying to stop the spread of message. It is not about the peaceful people at all. Any one can have any faith without fear. Nobody will kill him, if the person is peaceful. That is the teaching of islam.
QUOTE (FreedomPower @ Aug 1 2008, 09:38 PM)
Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Lets look at verse (4:74),(4:75) & (4:76):
(4:74)
[b]
YUSUFALI: Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
PICKTHAL: Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.
SHAKIR: Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
(4:75)
YUSUFALI: And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
PICKTHAL: How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender!
SHAKIR: And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say: Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper.
(4:76)
YUSUFALI: Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
PICKTHAL: Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.
SHAKIR: Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
What verse (4:74) & (4:75) states is that those who fight for God's cause would be rewarded whether they are victorious or slain. Fighting for God's cause includes the liberation of the oppressed, meaning the helpless men and women who are yearning and praying for freedom. The believers fight for God's cause, and the disbelievers fight for the sake of their idols. An idol may be taken conceptually. For example, evil or greed may figuratively be construed as idols. The believers should put all their trust in God the Almighty and Powerful and fear not the disbelievers and their evil plans. Evil plans are always inferior to goodness.
Verse (4:76) states Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
QUOTE (FreedomPower @ Aug 1 2008, 09:38 PM)
Sura (4:89[/b]) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Again, lets look at couple of verses before and after (4:88), (4:89), (4:90) & (4:91)
(4:88)
YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.
SHAKIR: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
(4:89)
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
(4:90)
YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
PICKTHAL: Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.
SHAKIR: Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
(4:91)
YUSUFALI: Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.
PICKTHAL: Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
SHAKIR: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.
Honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.
QUOTE (FreedomPower @ Aug 1 2008, 09:38 PM)
Furthermore if anyone needs more information on Mohammed and Islam please check out this website:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm
It explains how Mohammed, killed, raped, plundered, and even went so far as to marrying a 6 year old girl and consuming the marriage when she was 9 years of age. The biggest mistake one can make is to buy into the propaganda that Islam is a religion of peace.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm
It explains how Mohammed, killed, raped, plundered, and even went so far as to marrying a 6 year old girl and consuming the marriage when she was 9 years of age. The biggest mistake one can make is to buy into the propaganda that Islam is a religion of peace.
Do read up on http://faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed.html
Also guys, as an advice, in future if you post up verses from the Quran, do read up a couple of verses before and after it. Please refrain from making own conclusions just by reading 1 verse.
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
QUOTE (pointus @ Jul 29 2008, 03:47 AM)
Many Christians claim the bible was inspired by their god. There is no outside source for this proposition but the bible itself - circular logic there. But is it true that the bible was inspired by god? With god being omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent what would you expect of a piece of work from his hands and mind?
There should be no superlative grand enough to describe the work of such a being. But is that what we find in the bible? Are there any grand truths in the bible? If it is the inspiration of god, how did god transfer his thoughts into the minds of the writers of the bible? Was it through visions, trances, hallucinations, audible voices, hand-holding, telepathy etc. If this really was the work of god, would you expect the following in god's own work;
1) Falsehood
2) Contradictions
3) Distortions and corruption
4) God ordering massacres, genocide, human sacrifices, cannibalism
5) Almost anything that can be scientifically attested is wrong
What would be your framework for deciding a piece of work as belonging to a given individual? Supposing in 300 years time someone were to discover a piece of writing that purports to be the work of Einstein. How would we go about proving or disproving this as Einstein's work, given that we have copies of his genuine work and we know the high standard of his mind.
Can someone come up with a framework for assessing works that are claimed to be god-inspired? Can this framework be applied to the bible and the Ko-ran?
To my mind, these books are consistent with the minds of primitive bronze-age people with very little knowledge of the reality around them.
There should be no superlative grand enough to describe the work of such a being. But is that what we find in the bible? Are there any grand truths in the bible? If it is the inspiration of god, how did god transfer his thoughts into the minds of the writers of the bible? Was it through visions, trances, hallucinations, audible voices, hand-holding, telepathy etc. If this really was the work of god, would you expect the following in god's own work;
1) Falsehood
2) Contradictions
3) Distortions and corruption
4) God ordering massacres, genocide, human sacrifices, cannibalism
5) Almost anything that can be scientifically attested is wrong
What would be your framework for deciding a piece of work as belonging to a given individual? Supposing in 300 years time someone were to discover a piece of writing that purports to be the work of Einstein. How would we go about proving or disproving this as Einstein's work, given that we have copies of his genuine work and we know the high standard of his mind.
Can someone come up with a framework for assessing works that are claimed to be god-inspired? Can this framework be applied to the bible and the Ko-ran?
To my mind, these books are consistent with the minds of primitive bronze-age people with very little knowledge of the reality around them.
It wasn't inspired by God.
It happened because He said so.
Just like you happened because He said so.
The sun continues to burn because He continues to fuel it, and the electrons continue to circle the protons and neutrons because He continues to make it happen.
Those that don't know who God is or what he has promised to those who love Him, are retarded.
Because he never discovered how to use what God created in him, that made even Einstein retarded.
If Einstein is retarded where does that leave you?
.
QUOTE (asciii @ Aug 16 2008, 01:38 AM)
Also guys, as an advice, in future if you post up verses from the Quran, do read up a couple of verses before and after it. Please refrain from making own conclusions just by reading 1 verse.
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hi asciii-
Welcome.
Good advice, no worries, we have christians who make conclusions just reading 1 verse of christian scripture.
I cannot say I am not guilty of it...
Do we do that because:
1) it agrees with our stance/belief
or
2) it agrees with God's belief/stance
or
3) we say 2, but we really mean 1
Do you think all religions do that?
QUOTE (AppyGroove @ Aug 16 2008, 11:30 AM)
QUOTE (asciii @ Aug 16 2008, 01:38 AM)
Also guys, as an advice, in future if you post up verses from the Quran, do read up a couple of verses before and after it. Please refrain from making own conclusions just by reading 1 verse.
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hi asciii-
Welcome.
Good advice, no worries, we have christians who make conclusions just reading 1 verse of christian scripture.
I cannot say I am not guilty of it...
Do we do that because:
1) it agrees with our stance/belief
or
2) it agrees with God's belief/stance
or
3) we say 2, but we really mean 1
Do you think all religions do that?
Only when it is a stand alone truth. But you wouldn't know about that because you haven't read it.
QUOTE (AppyGroove @ Aug 16 2008, 11:30 AM)
QUOTE (asciii @ Aug 16 2008, 01:38 AM)
Also guys, as an advice, in future if you post up verses from the Quran, do read up a couple of verses before and after it. Please refrain from making own conclusions just by reading 1 verse.
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hi asciii-
Welcome.
Good advice, no worries, we have christians who make conclusions just reading 1 verse of christian scripture.
I cannot say I am not guilty of it...
Do we do that because:
1) it agrees with our stance/belief
or
2) it agrees with God's belief/stance
or
3) we say 2, but we really mean 1
Do you think all religions do that?
Hi AppyGroove,
Could you elaborate further on your questions..
asciii
QUOTE (Dude @ Aug 17 2008, 12:02 AM)
QUOTE (AppyGroove @ Aug 16 2008, 11:30 AM)
QUOTE (asciii @ Aug 16 2008, 01:38 AM)
Also guys, as an advice, in future if you post up verses from the Quran, do read up a couple of verses before and after it. Please refrain from making own conclusions just by reading 1 verse.
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hi asciii-
Welcome.
Good advice, no worries, we have christians who make conclusions just reading 1 verse of christian scripture.
I cannot say I am not guilty of it...
Do we do that because:
1) it agrees with our stance/belief
or
2) it agrees with God's belief/stance
or
3) we say 2, but we really mean 1
Do you think all religions do that?
Only when it is a stand alone truth. But you wouldn't know about that because you haven't read it.
Dude-
Does the alfred newman photo and ghandi quote bother you? I enjoy a throught provoking quotes...
For these purposes, my screen name is appygroove. In real life my name is jake. I didn't grow up in a church. My parents had bad experiences in their youth with churches.. They were forced to go everytime the door was open. Later on in life, they saw church goers who would not lift a finger to help them in tough times, but would chastise them and their children for not attending church. It did not make sense to them that a church could have $7000 dollar stained glass windows ( x 8), a pastor with a salary exceeding 50K per year (with a free house) in the mid 1980s. It left a bitter taste in their mouth when churches pointed fingers at them, when their scandals made the front page of the newspaper. It did not make sense to them why they had to give money to the churches instead of the neighbor who couldn't afford lunch money or shoes for their kids. Are all churches like that? NO, but we had bad experiences with more than one in our area. They saw people who loved to be seen doing good things, who loved to have a gold plaque with their names on it on walls in churches.
What did I see in my folks.
I saw my folks help others. I saw my folks take care of the widows and elderly. I saw my folks bust my butt in front of God and everyone for me acting like a brat out in public. They wouldn't let me watch R rated movies, say cuss words, lie, treat my meek but strong mother with disrespect (nor raise a voice). I was told that if I wanted it, I had to work for it: nothing is free. I think I have a good work ethic. I thank God for them and what they taught me. Were they perfect? No. They did the best they could with what they had. Did I stray? Yes.
You mentioned LSD in some other thread. It reminded me of a story about LSD. One night in college, I was on LSD. All the 'fun stuff' was over, but LSD does provoke deep thinking and is a stimulant. When you are wide awake at 3:30 AM, you have nothing to do but think. It donned on me why mom never had new clothes. The LSD intensified the remorse I felt that night. If you think about the wise men in the nativity story, you know God can even use pagans to deliver his message. I am not promoting, encouraging, or condoning the use of LSD.
For the record, I do attend church today. My work schedule does not allow me to attend sundays.... The members are good people, but I haven't attended in 6 weeks and have yet to recieve a phone call from any of them... For a congregation size of 150, it makes me wonder at times.
It is clear through posts that you do not agree with everything I say... Its more clear that you have made assumptions about me. Neither matter to me. If its my respect that you want. You have it. If its dignity you seek. I'll give it to you. I would feed you if you were hungry, clothe if you were naked, take you in if you needed a place to stay. You want the shirt off my back?
I can say I have read the bible cover to cover on more than one occasion.... But you probably wouldn't believe me. Again no matter.
It is a pet peeve of mine to see others use 'GodS word' as a "God Sword".
It is a pet peeve of mine to see others say 'someone is not saved'.
People have their own definition of "tolerance" . I may not tolerate someone's action, but I do my best treat them with respect and dignity because they, too, are sinful humans who need a doctor and a savior.
Dude, we have one thing in common.....
We don't take each other seriously...
Next time you are going to be in the East Tennessee area, I'll take you out for some of the best steak and ribs in the country.
Pulling up a chair, this is getting interesting... not getting involved, just want to see where this is going. Yes, do prove it.. I would love to hear the proofs! 
Wow, Appy.. I have a new respect for you and your upbringing (by the way, I have always loved Alfred Newman and read all his comic books.. Spy vs. Spy was my fav).
Hey, if Dude declines on the steak and ribs, can I take his place? Gosh, I am getting hungry!
And yes, there are many of us that read our LORD's words more than once cover to cover in the Bible...
Let us be more respectful when we may not be aware (as most of us are not as we are behind a computer screen), of someone's experiences in life and give them the benefit of the doubt, because we all are fallen and need help getting up now and then.
Appy... Love ya, bro! xo
Wow, Appy.. I have a new respect for you and your upbringing (by the way, I have always loved Alfred Newman and read all his comic books.. Spy vs. Spy was my fav).
Hey, if Dude declines on the steak and ribs, can I take his place? Gosh, I am getting hungry!
And yes, there are many of us that read our LORD's words more than once cover to cover in the Bible...
Let us be more respectful when we may not be aware (as most of us are not as we are behind a computer screen), of someone's experiences in life and give them the benefit of the doubt, because we all are fallen and need help getting up now and then.
Appy... Love ya, bro!
xo
QUOTE (asciii @ Aug 17 2008, 01:08 AM)
QUOTE (AppyGroove @ Aug 16 2008, 11:30 AM)
QUOTE (asciii @ Aug 16 2008, 01:38 AM)
Also guys, as an advice, in future if you post up verses from the Quran, do read up a couple of verses before and after it. Please refrain from making own conclusions just by reading 1 verse.
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hi asciii-
Welcome.
Good advice, no worries, we have christians who make conclusions just reading 1 verse of christian scripture.
I cannot say I am not guilty of it...
Do we do that because:
1) it agrees with our stance/belief
or
2) it agrees with God's belief/stance
or
3) we say 2, but we really mean 1
Do you think all religions do that?
Hi AppyGroove,
Could you elaborate further on your questions..
asciii
Hi Asciii--
Is English your first language? Are you american? When I was in college, I enjoyed my interactions with international students. One time, 5 of us (all from different continents) were eating lunch... it occurred to us all: the reason why NATO and UN have a hard time is because they can't understand what each other is saying....
Be glad to elaborate... (I'm not sure what relgion you have..)
1) Do you think people in other religions make conclusions using 1 verse from their own scripture?
a ) If your answer is "yes", do you think they do that because it fits what that person believes?
b ) If your answer is "yes", do you think they do that because it fits what their God believes?
2) Do you think people in other religions make conclusions using 1 verse from other relgion scriptures?
a) If your answer is "yes", do you think they do that because it fits what that person believes?
b ) If your answer is "yes", do you think they do that because it fits what their God believes?
3) Have you ever seen people do ( a ) but say ( b ) ?
My point: I think we all do it.... For instances, let's say I go and see a speaker. The speaker gives a good speech (or teaching)... I walk away afterwards saying "I liked that speech"? Sometimes I wonder "did I like that speech because it agreed with what I believe?"
QUOTE (AppyGroove @ Aug 17 2008, 11:59 AM)
My point: I think we all do it.... For instances, let's say I go and see a speaker. The speaker gives a good speech (or teaching)... I walk away afterwards saying "I liked that speech"? Sometimes I wonder "did I like that speech because it agreed with what I believe?"
I think that question is sooo important and says a lot... waiting for the answer....
QUOTE (AppyGroove @ Aug 17 2008, 09:38 AM)
QUOTE (Dude @ Aug 17 2008, 12:02 AM)
QUOTE (AppyGroove @ Aug 16 2008, 11:30 AM)
QUOTE (asciii @ Aug 16 2008, 01:38 AM)
Also guys, as an advice, in future if you post up verses from the Quran, do read up a couple of verses before and after it. Please refrain from making own conclusions just by reading 1 verse.
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hope this sheds some light.
asciii
Hi asciii-
Welcome.
Good advice, no worries, we have christians who make conclusions just reading 1 verse of christian scripture.
I cannot say I am not guilty of it...
Do we do that because:
1) it agrees with our stance/belief
or
2) it agrees with God's belief/stance
or
3) we say 2, but we really mean 1
Do you think all religions do that?
Only when it is a stand alone truth. But you wouldn't know about that because you haven't read it.
Dude-
Does the alfred newman photo and ghandi quote bother you? I enjoy a throught provoking quotes...
For these purposes, my screen name is appygroove. In real life my name is jake. I didn't grow up in a church. My parents had bad experiences in their youth with churches.. They were forced to go everytime the door was open. Later on in life, they saw church goers who would not lift a finger to help them in tough times, but would chastise them and their children for not attending church. It did not make sense to them that a church could have $7000 dollar stained glass windows ( x 8), a pastor with a salary exceeding 50K per year (with a free house) in the mid 1980s. It left a bitter taste in their mouth when churches pointed fingers at them, when their scandals made the front page of the newspaper. It did not make sense to them why they had to give money to the churches instead of the neighbor who couldn't afford lunch money or shoes for their kids. Are all churches like that? NO, but we had bad experiences with more than one in our area. They saw people who loved to be seen doing good things, who loved to have a gold plaque with their names on it on walls in churches.
What did I see in my folks.
I saw my folks help others. I saw my folks take care of the widows and elderly. I saw my folks bust my butt in front of God and everyone for me acting like a brat out in public. They wouldn't let me watch R rated movies, say cuss words, lie, treat my meek but strong mother with disrespect (nor raise a voice). I was told that if I wanted it, I had to work for it: nothing is free. I think I have a good work ethic. I thank God for them and what they taught me. Were they perfect? No. They did the best they could with what they had. Did I stray? Yes.
You mentioned LSD in some other thread. It reminded me of a story about LSD. One night in college, I was on LSD. All the 'fun stuff' was over, but LSD does provoke deep thinking and is a stimulant. When you are wide awake at 3:30 AM, you have nothing to do but think. It donned on me why mom never had new clothes. The LSD intensified the remorse I felt that night. If you think about the wise men in the nativity story, you know God can even use pagans to deliver his message. I am not promoting, encouraging, or condoning the use of LSD.
For the record, I do attend church today. My work schedule does not allow me to attend sundays.... The members are good people, but I haven't attended in 6 weeks and have yet to recieve a phone call from any of them... For a congregation size of 150, it makes me wonder at times.
It is clear through posts that you do not agree with everything I say... Its more clear that you have made assumptions about me. Neither matter to me. If its my respect that you want. You have it. If its dignity you seek. I'll give it to you. I would feed you if you were hungry, clothe if you were naked, take you in if you needed a place to stay. You want the shirt off my back?
I can say I have read the bible cover to cover on more than one occasion.... But you probably wouldn't believe me. Again no matter.
It is a pet peeve of mine to see others use 'GodS word' as a "God Sword".
It is a pet peeve of mine to see others say 'someone is not saved'.
People have their own definition of "tolerance" . I may not tolerate someone's action, but I do my best treat them with respect and dignity because they, too, are sinful humans who need a doctor and a savior.
Dude, we have one thing in common.....
We don't take each other seriously...
Next time you are going to be in the East Tennessee area, I'll take you out for some of the best steak and ribs in the country.
That is not true Appy I love you dearly and do take you seriously.
I tell the truth and it is no Joke.
But you are entering into your parents mistakes.
That is judging God by what the devil does for his kingdom of money.
It still gives you no excuse for not getting right with God and going out and changing it.
It is set in stone that you will be persecuted and killed eventually, but so what.
What is a couple of years of absence from life in the outcome of eternity?
God is almighty and will bring you back to life for eternity in a kingdom of peace, Love and truth.
By the way I can't see signatures and avatars or emotes. I have them turned off in my preferences.
I'm not understanding Dude what you mean about Appy having to get it right with God? I think he's already got it right! Please be more specific.
You don't even know me. You are convinced of my lack of salvation...
People are going to think what they want to think...
People are going to see what they want to see...
Did I mention I am a member of a church?
They love the lord, they love their neighbors...but they don't go to church.
Its my story and I'm sticking to it....
People are going to think what they want to think...
People are going to see what they want to see...
Did I mention I am a member of a church?
They love the lord, they love their neighbors...but they don't go to church.
Its my story and I'm sticking to it....
Appy, ... I didn't know what he meant... good response!
... I didn't know what he meant... good response!
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