I don't know if you are a father or mother, but you must at least be a child of someone. You are clearly here on this board trying to knock the faith of Christians on this board with your questions. How would your parents feel if someone tried to convince you to not have faith in their love for you. Or, if you are a father or mother, how would you feel if someone tried to convince your child not to believe you were "for" them? Surely this would make either your parents (if question one applies), or you (if question 2 applies) very angry, indeed.

Now I know you are saying that you are an atheist, so you don't believe in God, but if you are wrong, do you realize how bad it will be for you when you see Him face to face and have to give an account for what you are trying to do? You must be very certain in your atheistic views, one might guess that your views (of no hope but death) are so dismal that your pain is causing you to try and bring others to the pit also (maybe for company). Why not opt out of the dismal pit and reach for the rays of light (we are saying to you - come out of the pit and join us - we will not come into the pit with you)?

If I had a girlfriend, there's no absolute way for me to know she loves me, without reading her mind.

For example, she could be hooked up to try to get me to fall in love with her, for money. How would I know? The whole thing could be a scam.

There's also no way to know if God is omniscient. How could we know?


What does it mean, 'for them?' All they care to know is, is if I'm their biological father or not, imo.


It's really this simple. If God is not a loving God, then he isn't worth worshipping.

Proving an idle or inactive God exists proves nothing. Proving a real and active God exists, should be infinitely important.

If the Christian God doesn't let good Muslims go to Heaven because of their difference in religion, then the Christian God isn't a loving or rational God, and not worthy of worship.
If the Islamic God doesn't let good Christians go to Heaven because of their religion, then the Islamic God isn't a loving or rational God, and not worthy of worship.

Jesus is the utmost loving Son of God you can find in this world. He says to love everyone even your enemies. Who can beat that?

BTW, Jesus would not approve of the military, FYI.

Follower333.

There is only one G-d, he isnt the same as those of other faiths. My G-d is the ONLY G-d that is! There is NO other!

He is all loving, all gentel, full of greace and understanding, his ways arent as men's ways, men would like to have their cake and eat it to, even if it makes one fat! The one true G-d is also a Justic G-d, full of wisdom and understanding that passes those of mankind, for he made the by his own hand!

YOu cant take sin on you and not pay for it, no! Sin will take you fither than you wanted, coast you more than you wanted to pay, keep you more than you wanted to stay. there are two things that will coast you every thing, SIN, and JESUS! but ONLY one will give back, making what you are given much better than you.

Those that speek against G-d by picking one or two things out of the word, our with out understanding...those that want to say there is more than one G-d, and if He doesnt fit into there little box, than he would be a G-d that wouldnt be worth worshiping, go with out true wisdom, and shows they turnly know NOT G-d!

Love and prayers! Jesus pulled me out of the mudpit!

Hi Neal,

Thanks for your response. In regards to reading anothers mind as to where they are at, I agree, we cannot do it perfectly. But if you'll look through all of Pointus' posts, He shows clearly where he is at. He even says he is an atheist in one of them and says some antogonistic things. I encourage you to read through them if you think I'm being harsh here. I am not being harsh, rather, having a major sense of urgency for his eternal condition. Jesus was tough with those who were not saved also when they were saying things that would knock other's faith in Him (Saducees and Pharisees). Here is one of Pointus' other posts and my response to it:


I have a strong urge to put god to the test. And why not? Everyday millions of people put god to the test by making demands on god in the form of prayers. The course of life continues to unfold in exactly the same way it it has been for billions of years, with some events attributed to gods of one kind or the other. But is he really there listening to these prayers and deciding which to respond to favourably and which to ignore. OK, let me, an atheist, put him to the test just like theist, by offering the following prayer;

Oh, dear God, Father in heaven, you are the most high and worthy of praise and respect. I prayer from the bottom of the being, dear Father, that I may not and never win the grand million-pound lottery. In Jesus name, I prayer. Amen.


How do you think god will respond to this prayer?

1) If he becomes indignant that I don't believe in him, then he is not going to answer my prayer. If he does not answer my prayer, this means I shall win the grand million-pound lottery. Great financial result for me.

2) If he chooses to answer my prayer, in which case I never win the lottery. I would be no better or worse off than I am now.

Which way do you think god would go? This is a great prayer - why don't you guys give it a go?





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He doesn't even hear you. Until you believe in Him (by means of His death on the cross for a coverng), you have NO access to Him. His covering is perfect and you cannot cover yourself (from imperfection = your sin). This is a gap you cannot bridge for access to a perfect God, but He has done it for you. You an accept the gift, or not. Until you take on a covering (Belief on His Son's sacrifice for salvation), you have no access. So the answer to your question, about the answer to your prayer to God, is that He is not available to you and you will die in your sins, either with lots of cash, or not much cash, either way, your eternal condition will be more horrible than you can bear. Don't worry about cash, worry about your eternal well being.

No I don't think you're being harsh, at all.


O.o. I wouldn't say "I am an atheist" like that in a Christian forum, if I were you. :/


I think he won't answer it, and, continue on with the laws of causality. And then, you won't win the lottery because that's how the laws of chance put fit.


Or He could do absolutely nothing since you won't win the lottery anyway.


I agree, and of course, it'd be impossible to tell if that happened without him telling us.

Hi Neal,

It looks by your post that I said the following things, when they were a cut and past of what Pointus said: I just want to be clear about who said them, I was just responding to them, thats all.

QUOTE (His Glory is a Rainbow) I didn't say this Pointus did
rather, having a major sense of urgency for his eternal condition. Jesus was tough with those who were not saved also when they were saying things that would knock other's faith in Him (Saducees and Pharisees). Here is one of Pointus' other posts and my response to it:

I have a strong urge to put god to the test. And why not? Everyday millions of people put god to the test by making demands on god in the form of prayers. The course of life continues to unfold in exactly the same way it it has been for billions of years, with some events attributed to gods of one kind or the other. But is he really there listening to these prayers and deciding which to respond to favourably and which to ignore. OK, let me, an atheist, put him to the test just like theist, by offering the following prayer;

O.o. I wouldn't say "I am an atheist" like that in a Christian forum, if I were you. :/


QUOTE (His Glory is a Rainbow) I didn't say this Pointus did
Oh, dear God, Father in heaven, you are the most high and worthy of praise and respect. I prayer from the bottom of the being, dear Father, that I may not and never win the grand million-pound lottery. In Jesus name, I prayer. Amen.


How do you think god will respond to this prayer?

I think he won't answer it, and, continue on with the laws of causality. And then, you won't win the lottery because that's how the laws of chance put fit.


QUOTE (His Glory is a Rainbow) I didn't say this Pointus did
1) If he becomes indignant that I don't believe in him, then he is not going to answer my prayer. If he does not answer my prayer, this means I shall win the grand million-pound lottery. Great financial result for me.

Or He could do absolutely nothing since you won't win the lottery anyway.


QUOTE (His Glory is a Rainbow) I didn't say this Pointus did
2) If he chooses to answer my prayer, in which case I never win the lottery. I would be no better or worse off than I am now.

I agree, and of course, it'd be impossible to tell if that happened without him telling us.

Neal,

Here is Pointus' actual post so you can check it out:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=21652

Oh okay, you were copy/pasting what Pointus said from another thread.

K.

Well, my post is about God, yours is about Jesus, they're not the same. There is no counter-argument.

um go over the old testament and then take your time and read the new testament you will see the same god who moved and performed those miracles do the same in the new testament also read between the lines just like signing up for a credit card or bank loan

you will be supprised by what props up

Jesus alone could not have performed all those miracles we read about concerning to the events that un folded in the new testament

by what you have left you have left your self open i say their is a counter argument as i said neal go over both books and you will see what i am trying to point out to you i too got cought out like this and then i had to go over the old testament and the new testament this time i read between the lines and studied and asked a lot of questions

God did not have to perform those miracles that we saw unfold in the old testament he could have refused and rejected the israelits but he cared for the israelits its the same when king David faced Goliath

with out Gods anointing and blessing falling on David david would not have been able to kill Goliath


an atheist wil say these are all storys and what happend in the old testament really did not occur


take your time Neal and go over the bible



the miracles Jesus performed would have never happend God could have prevented these miracles happening




God bless from damo

So by this logic - if the God in the Qu'ran did the same miracles, does that mean it's the same God as in the Bible?


Indeed I shall.

But besides what miracles and healing powers has has done in the 2 testaments, we also find a difference in personality. 1 is an angry and wrathful God, and the other isn't. 1 will flood drown the world, and the other doesn't. Are they the same God? I don't know - who can know for sure? It's possible God had a huge personality change. Then again, maybe Mary pleased God so well that led her to give birth to Jesus in 9 months.


Or in other words, God and Jesus complete each other. They are still not the same. Proving to me that Jesus could not do the miracles without God proves exactly my point - that Jesus and God are not the same, as I orginally said in my previous post here.

Hi Neal,

To answer your other question, our God Loving and just therefore He is both Lion and Lamb (just depending from which point you are approaching Him).

Lion to those who reject His salvation offer (by grace/gift).

Lamb to those who sincerely accept His offer (by grace/gift).

He is the salvation, not our works, lest any man should boast.

But our works testify as to whether we sincerely believed in Him.

He is also the one who can cast into hell - eternal seperation - for those who firmly reject Him (insincere/phoney belief, or no belief)

He does not change, He is the same today (loving and righteous - or just), yesterday (loving and righteous - or just), and tomorrow (loving and righteous - or just). We are the ones who change (but from our perspective it may appears that He is changing).

Men are/were saved by faith in both the NT and OT.

You're talking about God in reality, I was talking about the biblical God.

To talk about the Biblical God, you would need to counter-argue with Bible verses.

To argue about God in reality, you would have to talk about your personal experiences with him and other people's experiences with him you know about.

My opinions/observations.

God in Old Testament - evil.
God in New Testament - neutral.
God in reality - neutral.

Poor Neal... I feel for you... some of us are going through the same frustration. Love ya, Rose

HGIAR, not meaning you!

Hi Neal,

Here is a scripture:

Revelation 5: 1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, [u]standing in the center of the throne[/u], encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So in response to your last part of your note I would say:

God OT - Loving/Righteous (but He is loving showing/teaching us before we see His grace gift how righteous He is so that we'll accept it when He comes) see scripture below
God NT - Loving/Righteous (He has come and now we have the grace gift, but He is still righteous and punishing -eternally - if we reject Him)
God in reality - loving/Righteous (He is the same as His Word - becasue His word is reality)

1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. 5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. 7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. 17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19 Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones. 23 By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. 29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days. 31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Neal/IrishRose,

I am certainly not trying to annoy anyone or make anyone's life harder, I was just sharing what I have learned in order to help. I have had the very same thoughts as you and have discovered things along the way that satisfied my mind. I am just sharing them in case it will help satisfy your mind. I will not continue if it is a bother.

Sincerely and God Bless you both,
HGIAR