My husband and I had a hard time with eternal torment...we were pretty afraid to say or believe anything but what we had been taught; for fear of misleading anyone, or misleading ourselves. Thank God for bible search engines!...lol!

I now have full confidence that the Lake of Fire is eternal destruction/extinction rather than eternal torment. Whenever I've found what *looks* like a discrepancy, I run to my search engine, find all the verses which deal with the topic and weigh them all. Whichever understanding holds the most weight or scriptural backing, that's where my confidence lies.

We can have full assurance concerning God's future judgment...and to make your assurance full, I have thoroughly provided abundant scriptures to attest to the truth. Consider the division between two understandings, which understanding holds the MOST weight?

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Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

(...is it possible that everlasting punishment is referring to an irreversible act of judgment, rather than a person living forever in torment?)

Mark 3:29 "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject toeternal condemnation"

Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

(Consider what a worm and fire does, it destroys. Therefore, is it possible that this is referring to an eternal destruction?)

Isaiah 50:11 Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle [yourselves] with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled -- This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment.

(Would it not be *tormenting* to suffer complete destruction?)

Matthew 8:29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

(this verse will be expounded upon in the lower section)

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

(The smoke IS the destruction...and it is an eternal judgment)

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are.] And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

(This is the only verse which seemingly implies that those who suffer this fate, shall live in eternal torment...but what of the many scriptures which imply otherwise?)

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Mark 1:24 saying, "Let [us] alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are -- the Holy One of God!"

(compare to Matthew 8:29, the "torment" being spoken of, is the *horrifying* destruction)

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

(we know that Sodom and Gomorrah is not burning today...but the example is given for a future *similar* destruction.)

Jeremiah 25:9 'behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,' says the LORD, 'and Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, against its inhabitants, and against these nations all around, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations.

(another example, a destruction which is perpetual)

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

(If the beast suffers eternal torment, then why refer to it going to perdition?)

per·di·tion Audio Help /pərˈdɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[per-dish-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a state of final spiritual ruin; loss of the soul; damnation.
2. the future state of the wicked.
3. hell (def. 1).
4. utter destruction or ruin.
5. Obsolete. loss.

John 5:24 " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

(in order to be eternally tormented, one must live eternally...but these and following verses state otherwise)

1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

John 12:25 "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Hebrews 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

2 Peter 2:3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth [which] are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

(Adam and Eve did not immediately die...is it possible this is referring to the death of the soul?)

Proverbs 19:16 He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul, [But] he who is careless of his ways will die.

John 6:50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.

Isaiah 10:18 And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body; And they will be as when a sick man wastes away.

(here we see the great judgment of the Lord, both body and soul are consumed in destruction)

Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 16:26 "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Psalms 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalms 52:5 God shall likewise destroy you forever; He shall take you away, and pluck you out of [your] dwelling place, And uproot you from the land of the living. Selah

Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring up like grass, And when all the workers of iniquity flourish, [It is] that they may be destroyed forever.

Proverbs 13:13 He who despises the word will be destroyed, But he who fears the commandment will be rewarded.

Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Daniel 7:26 ' But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy [it] forever.

Acts 3:23 'And it shall be [that] every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'

2 Thess 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming

(Will the lawless one suffer eternal torment, or will he be destroyed?)

James 4:12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

2 Peter 2:12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

John 10:10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have [it] more abundantly.

1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Revelation 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

(If you are not found within the book of LIFE, how can you live eternally in torment?)

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(Why would the lake of fire be referred to as the *second death*, if it were not so?)

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I know this was exceptionally lengthy, but the evidence truly needs to be weighed. Of course, you may want to examine the verses more carefully, studying the context of surrounding verses...and there are many words to search for concerning this subject...(in other words, there may be more to examine, but in my mind, this is enough!)


God bless you,
Kim

Smoke which ascends forever=eternal destruction

...Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away.

Psalms 68:2 As smoke is driven away, So drive [them] away; As wax melts before the fire, [So] let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

(NKJV) Isaiah 34:1 Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] against all nations, And [His] fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter. 3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as [fruit] falling from a fig tree. 5 " For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. 7 The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness." 8 For [it is] the day of the LORD's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever. 11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it, Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. And He shall stretch out over it The line of confusion and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call its nobles to the kingdom, But none [shall be] there, and all its princes shall be nothing.

(NKJV) 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

(NKJV) 1 Peter 4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Is there hope of salvation for those who die in a state of non grace? Above I have posted some scriptures that may indicate that there is. Christ's atonement upon the cross provides redemption for those who put their faith in him. But, what about the masses of people who have never heard the Gospel throughout the ages? Does God send them into punishment at death?

I believe that JESUS CHRIST is the ONLY WAY of SALVATION. And that salvation may extend to some of the dead aswell. Take notice of 1 Peter 4:6, The Gospel (Good News of Salvation) was preached to those who are dead, so they may live according to God in the spirit. Who were these dead that Christ preached the Gospel to? 1 Peter 3:18,19 states that they were those who were DISOBEDIENT and died in the flood of Noah's time. This is an example of salvation after death.

The Apostle Paul mention's the baptism on the behalf of the dead. This was obviously a custom among the Jews, aswell as the early Christians.

NKJV 1 Cor 15:29 . Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?

Judaism has always believed in a place of purging after death. Some call this place Purgatory. I disagree with the Roman Catholic ,aswell as the Eastern Orthodox interpetation of Purgatory. The Bible does indicate that there are sections of Hell. I believe that there may be a section of Hell that is neither punishment nor reward. This may be the place, where Christ descended, to preach the gospel to those dead who were described as DISOBEDIENT. I believe that if you die in a state of grace, you go immediately to Paradise.

I would like to clarify our belief in the afterlife. We DONT believe in the soul sleep doctrine. We believe that the soul survives the death of the body. The Saved have eternal life. On the day of judgement, Hell will give up it's dead, and the unsaved souls will be cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death. This second death is their destruction (extinction). This destruction is an eternal decree, NOT eternal suffering.

If you don't believe in soul sleep then you must read out of the living bible paraphrased.

Or some other johnny come lately translation for wannabes.

The bible refers to those who have fallen sleep in Christ or the dead in Christ.

Those who sleep in Christ will be raised from the dead at Christs return.

That is the reason for the resurrection from the dead.

There is no such thing as eternal life in hell being held over a flame for eternity.

The promise of God for those who follow Christ is eternal life.

The wages of sin is death. Does everyone know what dead is? If you ask a dead person something, They won't answer. If you hit them with a hammer they won't respond. Because they are dead. No consciousness at all.

The wages of sin is death.

John 11
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Kim,

Thank-you for starting this thread in this section of the forum. The thought of an actual hell has always distressed and confused me. Couldn't make sense of a loving God throwing anybody in the hell fires below. I remember as a child going to the beach and that day I became burnt to the core, with a little sun poisening to boot! I remember thinking: "This burn ain't nothing compared to the burn you are going to feel for all eternity if you die with a mortal sin on your soul." I was a scared little girl who was was more afraid of God and didn't know how to love God. I was a little girl who grew up fearing the law while ignoring Grace.

I will keep reading this topic while learning.

Gods Blessings,

Al

"The Bible does indicate that there are sections of hell."
Servant of IAM

Reminds me of "Dante's Inferno," required reading when I went to college. Much of the class didn't like this book, but I really enjoyed the reading. This book gave me hope that those who didn't know Christ, wouldn't suffer in the after-life the horrid fire and brim stones. This book also gave me hope that the punishment would fit the crime. As with Judas the Betrayer of Christ. Judas chosen from the beginning of time to betray Christ. In Dante's book, Judas is in a higher level of hell receiving less punishment than those demons who spit venom and evil out of their nostrils to harm innocent people in society.

Gods Blessings,

Al

We (Servant of IAM and I), quote from NKJ or KJ....

John 11
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

This is speaking of the death of his physical body. His Spirit however, remained alive and first descended into the lower parts...and preached the gospel to the departed souls of Noah's time.

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

These departed souls are with God NOW...and when He returns, they will return with Him.

Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why is the lake of fire referred to as "the second death"? Because our physical bodies die (unless we are alive and remain when He returns), but our soul continues to live...unless it is cast into the lake of fire.

*If* soul sleep were true, then why would Jesus make the astonishing revelation that God is the God of the living...the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? This revelation which Jesus emphasised is that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living at that time, although their physical bodies were dead.

Consider the parable given by Jesus concerning Lazarus and the rich man....these departed souls were still living after the death of their physical bodies...and although this is a parable, it does not mean it was a fantasy.

I've heard the argument for soul sleep, and one must rearrange punctuation in the following verse to believe it....Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (the argument is, place the comma after today, and the meaning is different...I disagree with this because there are other compelling evidences that the soul continues to live after the physical body's death).

Was Moses and Elijah *asleep* when they appeared with Jesus on the Mt. of Transfiguration?

Stephen saw our Lord standing up and ready to receive his soul after his body was martyred.

Was Paul wrong with his belief that when he died, he would go on to be with the Lord?

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Hi Al,
You are welcome, thanks for your kindness.
The lake of fire and hell are two different places according to the bible. (*Hades* is the greek word for *hell*) Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I believe our God is a just and merciful God, therefore I believe there are varying degrees of punishment in hell. I know of a person who died and went to hell. His experience was unique, he didn't go into flames, but rather a cold, black pit. As he descended into this black pit, the warmth of love faded quickly, until he called upon Jesus. When he did this, his soul started rising back into his body, and the warmth of love returned. I've heard other accounts where people were tormented by flames. I believe this shows the varying degrees of punishment, depending upon the degree of evil each committed.

My husband (Servant of IAM) and I believe that it is *possible* for some to receive pardon (even after) they die. We base this understanding primarily upon scriptures found in 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

I've heard many pastors dismiss these scriptures by saying that this was a *one time* event, but that is not what these scriptures state. We must recognize the mercy of the Lord. But we also need to recognize that judgment will be stricter for those who have the truth in this life, but reject it. For those who are given much, much is required.

I don't believe people are thoroughly examining their beliefs about eternal torment. As finite creatures, it is hard to grasp *eternity*, but we can consider comparisons...
After 10,000 years of suffering eternal torment in the lake of fire (as some believe), would not God's wrath be satisfied? If that's not enough, try 1,000,000 years. I mean, come on!...A person typically lives 70+or- years. Wouldn't a just God have His wrath satisfied before 10,000 years elapses? What about 500 billion years? 500 billion years doesn't even compare to the amount of time eternity *is*!

What would be the purpose of all this torment? Is God so monstrous and egotistical that He requires this perpetual placation of His wrath? Clearly God in His mercy was willing to suffer and die on the cross for our restoration to Him. Is this the same God being depicted by many? Would this same, merciful God (who is a lover of life...who created all living things with joy), derive any satisfaction from eternally tormenting damned souls? (because, after a ridiculous amount of time, surely God's wrath would be spent, wouldn't it?).

I do not dismiss the fact that hell and the lake of fire truly exist, but the purpose of the lake of fire is extinction, not eternal torment.

God bless you,
Kim

The wages of sin is death...not eternal torment. Death means separation...and there are different levels of this separation. There is a judgment whereby many will be cast into outer darkness. The pain will be the separation from the Lord...something that doesn't bother these in this life.

<><

John

Hi John! Concerning the verse in reference to outer darkness, the verse states that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Gnashing of teeth is a reference to the chewing of the tongue. Many who have died very painful deaths, have chewed their tongue from severe pain. I believe that outer darkness is a place of severe pain. This may be a reference to a section of Sheol. God bless you my Brother!

First, it is always argued that the mere fact that the Bible refers to death by the word "sleep" is absolute proof that there is no conscious life after death. That this is an erroneous argument is seen from the following facts

l. The word "sleep" is a metaphor describing the appearance and posture of the body. Even Froom admits that it is a metaphor. 2. The word was also used by the Greeks, Egyptians, etc., to describe their dead. Since these surrounding cultures indisputably believed in a conscious afterlife, their use of the word "sleep" to describe their dead obviously cannot mean that they believed the dead were unconscious.

Thus, the mere presence of the word "sleep" in scripture as a metaphor for death cannot logically be used as an argument for soul sleep. " The notion of soul-sleep is just as foreign to the N.T. as to Judaism; the image of sleep is introduced simply...as an euphemistic description of death.

Sleep, in describing death, is nothing more than how the living view the dead. Yet even still, we exist, think, dream and experience consciousness when we sleep.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

The context shows that this verse is not speaking about soul sleep, just as "they have no more reward" is not denying the resurrection of the dead.

To show that the author of Ecclesiastes did not believe in soul sleep, one can cite the following verse from the same book:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

That is, the soul has an existence independent of the body, and returns to God at death.

Revelation 6:9-10
When he broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of all the people who had been killed on account of the word of God, for witnessing to it. They shouted aloud, "Holy, faithful Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth?"

The Bible is saying that martyrs go to heaven before the Judgment. Note that this takes place before the resurrection, before the end of the world, before the Judgment, while life is going on as usual on the earth. Also, the martyrs, despite being "dead", have their own memories, and remember that they have been martyred.

So to say that these martyrs "know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) in the sense of being unconscious, or something like that, would be incorrect.

Luke 24:37-39
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

If a spirit apart from its body is dead, then surely the Apostles would know this and thus would not have thought that a living Jesus would be a spirit. Also, if the Apostles had been incorrect in believing that a person's soul survives apart from that person's body, then why didn't Jesus correct them instead of encouraging them in this "erroneous" belief they held? In fact, Jesus here says that the spirit exists independently of the body.

Genesis 35:18
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing,(for she died)...
Note that, when Rachel died, her soul departed. It didn't "fall asleep".

John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."


Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on [God] and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

NOTICE HE SAID, LORD JESUS, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT.

Matthew 17:1,3-4
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

Moses had died,(Deuteronomy 34:5 - So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.) and yet, despite being dead, he is able to speak to Jesus.

Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God.
The Spirit that is God can not die.
Man is flesh and man's spirit is flesh.
When man dies he has no consciousness.
That is why you must ask God to replace your Flesh with His Spirit.
It was Christ who talked to Noah and saved the eight.
It was Christ who walked and talked with Abraham.
Abraham and Noah are asleep In God awaiting the resurrection from the dead at Christ's return just like the Apostles are. Since there is no consciousness in death, when those who are Christ's die they simply wake up in the air with Him at His return.

Yes, I believe that there is varying degrees of punishment in Hell. Luke 16 gives us the account of flames in the present Hell. I believe that this section of Hell is the most extreme, and is for the worst cases. I have known, aswell as heard of, quite a few people that have had Hell experiences that have occured either by death or by vision. Many describe their account of Hell as being a very cold, dark pit. I know of one person who attempted suicide. He was shown two sections of Hell. He first found himself standing in a stream of water up to his knees. He described this place as resembeling Alaska. He said that there were trees, aswell as grass, but there was no color ,nor sound in this place. He also added that he was void of all emotions. He felt neither love,hate,fear nor joy. He then found himself , face down within a pitch black, pit of rock. He could feel the emotions of everyone that he had hurt in his earthly life. After he was brought back to life, he became a born again Christian.

Below, I have posted the Scripture from Luke 16. God Bless You my Sister!

(NKJV) Luke 16: 19 " There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried.

23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Post 12 addresses your argument. God Bless You.

No it does not. Because a soul consists of the body of dust and the breath of Life from God. Remove either one and there is no soul. Then there are the scriptures that say there is no consciousness in death.


Isaiah 38
18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You, As I do this day; The father shall make known Your truth to the children.

Psalms 6
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

Genesis 2
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 6
3 And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

bumping for Jake

Forever and Ever

• "And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever," (Rev. 19:3).
• "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

• "to whom be the glory forevermore, Amen" (Gal. 1:2)
• "Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Phil. 4:20)
• "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
• "The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (2 Tim. 4:18).
• "equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen," (Heb. 13:21).
• "Whoever speaks, let him speak, as it were, the utterances of God; whoever serves, let him do so as by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen," (1 Pet. 4:11).
• "and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 1:6).
• "and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades," (Rev. 1:18).
• "And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 4:9).
• "the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne," (Rev. 4:10).
• "And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever," (Rev. 5:13).
• "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 7:12).
• "and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer," (Rev. 10:6).
• "And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever,'" (Rev. 11:15).
• "And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever," (Rev. 15:7).
• "And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever," (Rev. 22:5).
• Forever and Ever ... yes, The Holy Spirit has gone out of His way to warn and to clearly show man just what the word 'forever and eternal' plainly mean. There will be no excuse on the Day of Judgment by pleading ignorance in place of prideful, willful, demonic disobedience.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are still; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).


... are still (literal Greek) -'where also they are still there'

ὅπου
opou •
where/still where
καὶ
kai •
also

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Deuteronomy 32:22

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalm 9:17

QUOTE

20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23And thou, Capernaum, which exalts thyself unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matthew 11: 20 - 25

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, delivering them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment, so He spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.
2 Peter 2:4,5

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view...er=165&l=en



The Biblical Truth about Hell

As I started this study on hell I learned a lot! The word "hell" is used 54 times in the Bible. It is translated from several different words with various meanings. I needed to know if hell is eternal or is annihilation within the boundaries of Christian Orthodoxy. More importantly is annihilation Biblical? So I present only what the Bible says on the matter. The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just ( Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ez. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).
The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.
There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, ² by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. ³ For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, ⁴ and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life, (John 5:24).

Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.

• "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
• "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
• These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; ¹³ wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

forever and everaionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).

". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).


"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3)."And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10). The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great whore of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.
Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, "aionas ton aionon," which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is "aionas aionon" which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.


Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.
Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)
Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." The word "unquenchable" is "asbestos" in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."
The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is "asbestos" in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.

• "unquenchable, inextinguishable" - Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• "not quenched" - Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• "pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable." - Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, [Online] Available: Logos Library System
• "unquenched, unquenchable" - Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• "that cannot be put out" - Wigram-Green, The New Englishman's Greek Concordance and Lexicon, (Peabody Mass: Hendrikson Publishers, 1982, p. 771.
• "inextinguishable" - William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, 2nd ed. (Chicago, Ill: The University of Chicago Press), 1979, p. 114.

Is hell eternal? Yes it is. For me to believe that hell is not eternal, I would have to deliberately disregard too much scripture. Are its fires without end? Yes they are. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really. But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

http://brucefraser.wordpress.com/
_____________
All scripture quotes are from the NASB.

For more essentials in the Christian faith please check out www.thebareessentials.org.

Thank you Kim, (well done)

Please bear with me, I pray a point will be made concerning "eternal destruction."

A few years back a friend asked me if "God was ever Alone?" Surely, I thought, there must have been a time when God was alone, but He never was.

My friend shared some thoughts with me. For God is love. And love makes aloneness, if you will, an intolerable state of being. Again, God was never alone. "Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likness;" (Gen. 1:26). Elohim is plural. The Father loved the Son and the Son loved the Father, and we have the Holy Spirit.

------------

That's why "SELF--righteousness" is the most hideous thing on the planet. Paul states the fact that "self" must be hidden in Christ. "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" ---NOT I --BUT CHRIST. (Gal. 2:20). It can never be "I PLUS CHRIST." I continuously hear Christians say, "with God's help." Nothing really wrong with that, but it does often make me reflect on Christ's word, and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Islam will always boast of having a concept of God superior to that of Christianity. Sadly, they don't know what their talking about. To think a Godhead consisting of just one single Person was the greatest thing in the universe. Yet does it not reduce AGAPE to absolute meaningless? Their God is completely ALONE, Allah is the essence of SELF.

Yes, I've finally arrived at a concluding point, I hope! Would not the monster of "aloneness" be HELL itself. IT IS THE ULTIMATE SEPARATION FROM GOD. This separation from God in the German adjective is "mutter-seelenalleine". That suggests; as heartbreakingly alone as an abandoned mother. In traditional Bible language we would say the Father. .... I would simply suggest that the lake of fire will be like ice cream compared to the horror the sinner will feel when they realize the "ETERNAL SEPARATION" that is upon them. Is that not the defining and absolute penalty for sin?

THE PRECEEDING, MY FRIENDS--IS THE CROSS OF CALVARY. Christ did not hang on the cross thinking about some kind of heavenly reward, which is being with His Father. NO, NO, NO. It was the complete opposite at that moment. "For God hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21). "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice saying, Eli, Eli, la-ma sabach-tha-ni? ... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken ME? (Matt. 27:46).

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid ... our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not. ... we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isa. 53. .... May we melt with loving adoration at the complete and eternal sacrifice our Savior made for us. The cross is not a cliche folks. The fear of hell nor the reward of heaven can ever be our motivation for heaven. It can only be what Paul proclaimed, "For I determined not to know ANYTHING amongst you, except Christ and Him crucified." ... This should be the center of everthing we teach.

blessings in Christ,
Jake W.

Hi Voice,
I'm not dismissing the understanding of what "eternal" literally means. However, because there does appear to be two differing understandings found within the scriptures themselves concerning the purpose for the lake of fire being either *eternal* torment or *eternal* destruction, I feel that a careful examination of all the scriptures pertaining to the topic at hand is in order. There are many scriptures outside of the book of Revelation which deals with this topic.

In all sincerity, we need to also keep in mind that we are dealing with *translations*. With that said, I believe it is possible for certain passages to have some of their original meanings lost during translation. I say this specifically when we find ourselves in a scriptural *connundrum*...with two opposing meanings being presented before us. Of course, we know that God is not an author of confusion. And that's when I feel *rightly dividing* the word of God is called for. Also, we must not merely rely upon a few scripture verses concerning such an important topic...but rather we should seek the whole counsel of God.

I do not say these things to chide or berate your understandings. But also feel it must be said that the purposes of God concerning judgment has a large sense of fear connected to it. Yes, we are to fear the One who has power over our soul as well as our body to destroy...but the point needs to be brought up that sometimes fear can be a hindrance to our growth in understanding. I struggled with fear over not wanting to get this issue wrong to the point that I was afraid to share my concerns that there were other scriptures which shed light on the issue too. I've gained confidence over time with study and prayer...and hope that everyone has confidence in their understandings too.

God bless you,
Kim