I touch upon this without a more fuller explaination in my first post.

As I first explained at a very young age I first began hearing of and about this special person and for many years, even after personally getting to know him, didn't see anything as important in who he actually was. Neither would he himself, back than, could have been able to know and explain himself as we do now know.

Only after my neardeath and resulting born again experiance with getting to know God and His word more fully did I begin to question bible commentary as fact or fiction. God's words are always steadfast and true. That does not apply to bible commentary unless the commentator is God Himself. Mere men are prone to error.

In my personal relationship I asked what is about to happen, as implied as God could only rightly know. He explained to me how a certain person was going to do his will by speaking out in a voice heard throughout the heavens and the earth pronouncing judgement. Very soon thereafter, God himself would streatch out His hand and snatch him up off the face of the earth to His throne in heaven. That was all I recieved.

I was shocked and stunned to get such an answer. It did sound familiar though it was not Enoch or Elijah God spoke of but this Male Child of Revelation as I quickly went to God's words for conformation. By God's Spirit all my childhood memories began to come back to me and my military experiances as well. Seeing more clearly I could than ask God for more details to confirm what was ment for me to know as I was most concerned about the coming tribulation and His book, Revelation. The answers came for form internet post about the very self same topic. This type of confirmation assured me that any and all in a right and personal relationship with God and concerned about these present time were coming into the know, as it were, about what God was planning to fulfill of His words. So as to help affirm to any and all others I began to post myself. That is what brought me here and caused me do what I have been doing.

The bible does confirm what we now see and know, the Male Child is not Jesus. The Male Child is the fulfillment of God's covenant with David. 2 Samuel, chapter 7. With a little bit of enlightenment, you will see ever so much throughout the bible being where bible commentators always gave Christ Jesus as the explaintion of just who was God talking about as error.

My personal research seeks out the oldest recordings of God's words in Hebrew, which than contain the fewest translation errors as well. Many sites upon the web are now featuring such works as of late as well and for this reason. To more clearly see the Male Child and all God has writen about him for these last days instead as was always the given, Christ Jesus, it's importance, study God's words with this in mind and see how much more sense and order to these times God has given to one and all. If you can't believe or don't believe, don't blame God when you fill left in the dark about all that is soon to come to past.

bingo!

this is something that I just shared with someone...

not as a doctrine or a teaching but from the Holy Spirit which
makes it so beautiful and breathgiving...

thanks for sharing your thoughts. i don't know what your deeper
understanding is but you have touched on something that
touches my heart...

blessings,
signet

I myself am Joe Average in every way. A common labor, retired longhaul trucker, suffering heart failure.

Drafted and forced to serve which at that time seemed not at all worth doing, Viet Nam, cold war and all that cra-. Most thankful to God for such a most revealing experience, only here and now and forever greatful to God and to God alone as be all the praise, honor and glory as well.

i just wrote in another thread that I love to see truckers on the road...
just like I love to see motorcyclist traveling...it reminds me of independance

a road less traveled in sort of a poetic way

i am blessed that you served and have insight into God's word through
your experience...more than average, joe.

May the Lord of the universe bless you in these days and be sweetness
in your mouth as you speak forth from the fountain that is within you.

blessings,
signet

Christ is the man Child clear from Enoch to Abraham to Joey.

I should add, withthis the very basic and simple truth of God's words, I need no further commentary from any man. That is the true independance that God for one and all. God's words and His words alone are all anyone should ever need. The Holy Spirit will confirm all that you now should begin to see and know rightly of God's words. I myself take time every so often to write, as in paper and ink, all I have come to only now to know and understand. If there is any error as I write it out to myself and God, The Holy spirit will correct me, that enlighten me to the proper order and understanding of all I have. God has promised, through Christ Jesus, this special helper, Holy Spirit, to one and all who except Christ as Savior and Redeemer, thus than LORD of eternal life.

a humble and contrite spirit is what is pleasing to the Lord
one that will overcome adversity with trust in the Lord...

may the Lord of heaven and earth continue to bless you,
and may you find your voice in the Lord to speak what
God gives to you...

JLM, Amen!

As you have been around here awhile, you should have noted just how much negitive attention this topic does generated. Could it be truth and Satan's attempt to despell it? Search and see just how many are ever so close. Male Child companies, corperate church and a special groups are all wrong. One man with God is the answer as that is "alllll" that God has ever needed. Christ Jesus in the flesh alone has conqured all of God's enemies. To "HIM" who overcomes his personal disbelief in God, which speeks of the Male Child in Revelation 2:7 and further on, is and all that God was waiting to fulfill His final words, Prophecies.

Adding all the "to him who overcomes" togeather you should now see the heir to the throne of David, God promised David. The Lamb of God is Christ Jesus, the Lion of the tribe of Judah memtioned Rev 5:5 is the Male Child. Revelation is not a straight read. The Male Child has bee snatched up to the throne of God in Chapter 12, though now already present in Chapter 5. The honor to break the seals of Revelation is given to the savior, reedemer and LORD of the Male Child, the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus. This is need as the first white horse rider to be sent forth is the Male Child, once again and not Jesus and or Satan. Satan has already been cast out as well. That was accomplished with the presents of the Male Child after being snatched up to God's throne in heaven. There is bad blood between Satan and this Male Child. God first gave Satan, as Lucifer, charge over all that God had created. With all of Satan's failures to do God's will, God's way, these title deeds, as it were, are now forcefully being taken away from Satan and Given to the Male Child. This means war, tribulation and judgement of Satan all that refuse to do God's will, God's way.

This is only the begining, the very self same route God through His word and by His Holy Spirit, has led me.

Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

The male child was to rule all nations with a iron rod.... He was also caught up to His throne, where He is now...

The Male Child is the fulfillment of God's covenant with David......No this is wrong.....

Can a covenant be caught up to heaven???

The man is Christ...........Unless your saying Israel gave birth to a covenant between God and David......

did you know that in most states it takes a 'thumbprint' proof for a notarization
on any kind of deed? it is our imprint of Jesus that brings us into the body of
Christ... through the cross and through the blood of the Lamb

Nightmare

Timeline is what you are asking for, as in just where are we now?

The Male Child was first created by God, as a Son of Light, the very self same way Lucifer was. Lucifer just happen to be the first Son of Light God had created. It wasn't lang there after that Lucifer became a problem child as noted in the book of God's words, the bible. The Male Child comes from and is applied to the last Son of Light God has created. That just happens to denote this size and stature thus his name as God and all others of heaven know him by. First created as a small male child Son of Light, being the latest as in last. That is why he has a name nobody knows but God, as God has yet to name him. Why hasn't God named him yet? God didn't have time to name as he was just created and sent forth to take on the flesh so as to do God's will more perfectly. Why such a hurry? Satan himself of his own free will was in the process of doing just that himself, that is coming to this earth in the flesh and blood of the Man of Sin, the Beast. The timing in God's own perfect will for the male child was as Isreal was rebirthed into existants once again. God had a lot of irons in the fire all at once. The Male Child was birth at the exact time of God's prior phophecies of this event in the proper line of Judah as well.

Satan's man of Sin is and has been present and no doubt to anyone, raising Hell all along. The Male Child and Satan's Man of Sin are about to square off. Go to war if you have been paying attention to the news of late. God's man, a boarn of the spirit Christian, that is in Christ Jesus, and Satan's man of Sin, by product of the false prophet Mohammed and the false religion, Islam, and moon God Allah, Satan. Self worship will get you nowhere fast with God.

As the Male Child squares off with Satan's man of Sin, Satans man of Sin, thus Satan's head is crushed. Just like God said in the bible, Gen 3:15. In Revelation and Danial the head is said to have been healed. That has not happened yet, what is about to happen is the crushing part in this soon to be war. As Satan's Man of Sin's head is crushed, others than God will try to steal the praise, honor and Glory due to God and to God alone for this accomplishment thrue the Male Child, thus the Male Child is Called upon to pronounce judgement upon the heavens and the earth and all they contain by God. All this is sprinkled thought the bible in all prior words of God that to most seemed to be nonsense. Knowing not only God but all key players in these last days brings a host of enlightenment to most often misunderstood passages of God's words, the bible. No commentary of man alone will help you, it will hinder more than help. Stick to God's words alone. There is ever so much about this I will not site chapter and verse as I personally haven't got time for all there is. You just should go back to the begining, with these key figures in mind and start all over, leaving all prior commentary out and sticking once again to God's words only.

HOW COULD THIS BE?

First off, Satan is the father of all lies, he has not been just sitting around playing with his thumbs. He has had many helpers in concealing truth especially by manly commentary. God has many things that are just plain commentary in the bible. You have been misguided by manly commentary which all bibles contain. If it is presently in print in your bible, it is all error. This practice was most noted at Christ Jesus first coming 2,000 years ago. Satan's helpers were the Jews of than Isreal, and the Romans of that time as well. They all feared that Jesus was the Male Child, that ws to come and judge the heavens and the earth, thus establishing God's earthly kingdom upon this earth. Christ Jesus was not listened to from the very start as He clearly stated that He has not come to Judge this world, but to save it. Christ Jesus Himseld went on to explain how He was hear to fulfill prophecies of the forgiveness of sin and the establishment of God's Kingdom of heaven, which is not of this earth. Another, yet to come in the name of Christ Jesus, as the now known heir to the throne of David, Son of God by first being and a Son of Man by being sent by God, just as Christ Jesus was Himself to take upon the body and flesh of sinful man.

All plain as day if you see the light.

Once again many people worldwide have been very busy trying to conceal all this, as all present day rules of this world claim to be in charge of this world. This is with a total disreguard to God's words of the bible. God has always been fully in charge and control of all of His creation. Sinful man following Satan's lead think otherwise.

The Jews of Jesus time and of this age still think the same as the always have since Christ Jesus appeared. There in charge as God's chosen people, and not even God can do anything about it. The are more than dead wrong, the are twice dead as Jesus Himself proclaimed.

Satan's time is short and will stop at nothing to destroy all that God has created. The more that is taken from his control, the more he tries to destroy. That is where we are now. The tribulation is a battle not only fought throughout the heavens, spiritually, but by way of flesh and blood here upon the earth physically. If it were as most proclaim a purely spiritual battle, it all would be over in an instant. Being that flesh and blood are involved, expect a full seven years of total global warfare.

Everyone should be very much interested in this next war in the middle east as it will only be the begining of all prophecies of Revelation and elsewhere throughout the bible about these last days.

Once again, go back to all prophecies that where in the past stated as pretain to Christ Jesus and to Christ Jesus alone and now see how Christ Jesus led the way for the heir the David to take the throne of David and establish God's kingdom upon this earth. The differance is very slite, however there is a very distinct differance knowing an heir to the throne will have come in very like fashion as Christ Jesus has already done. A priest after the order of Melchizedek is the heir to the throne of David. The Male Child first created by God in heaven has no begining other than God in heaven. Yes sent as Christ Jesus was, from heaven, to take on sinful flesh of man. Stillno other father or mother other than God Himself. In the flesh, Jesus had a earthly father and mother. However, Jesus was far more than flesh and blood, so is the Male Child as well. Please read Psalms, 110 and 89 and see the differance knowing just who the Male Child is. My present bible is in error as stating that this is none other then Christ Jesus which you should now know as well as I as the Male Child.

P.S.

The coming war will not be with Iran as Iran has no nukes, the war will be with Pakistan, which does have nukes and has vowed to use them. This all I have time for now. May God richly bless you with eyes to see and ears to know and a mind/heart to understand all God has for you in Christ Jesus.

Hey C
If Christ is the Man Child. How can the bride be part of the Man Child to?



To JLM the author of this thread.
I don't understand who or what you are saying the manchild is. Please clearify in modern american english. I don't speak ancient english.

Here is the Problem with that. No one comes to God except through Christ. So no matter how you look at it, The man Child still ends up being Christ or a member of the body of Christ. Even the Lords two witnesses are of the Body of Christ. Plus there is no such thing as a near death experience. Those who think so usually have dopamine level problem.

I'm trying to understand what you've said here and in the other thread. The only bit I'm really stuck on is when you said that the name of this person is not important. How can that be? Would it not be better for us all to know who this person is so to know the message this person brings? I don't quite get what you are saying sorry

JML .. please speak plainly

First off, God Himself has not given him a name as yet, such a Michael, Lucifer and the like of the Sons of God. He is only known by God and man as Male Child, Son of Light, Lion of the tribe of Judah etc. As name, thus a new name will be given to him by God on a white stone as stated in Revelation. Second, As he works in secret operation, there is no valid name available for him to be known by. All secret operatives at this world level are untracable, thus unknown, a rare few know him as the Assassin from God, The Wrath of God and the like. Cat is a nick-name or do I dare say, Shom, which is short for something else.

well now I'm well and truely confused by what you are saying. An assasin?

Cat-man shom-shilly-willey-willey-wop

Did you bother to read the scripture about Lucifer before you posted this trash. Lucifer was the King of Babylon or Confusion. He was a man who only boasted himself to going to heaven. He was a liar with no light in him.

You kinda just ran off truths mixed with speculations here so lets slow it down if you will.....It would take to long to address everything here .....

this is simple stuff here Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.".....So you see this woman is about to give birth.... This woman is Israel.....

You know theres only one person able to rule all nations with a Iron rod???

Genesis 3:15 is the beginning of a 3-part curse; the serpent, the woman, then Adam. The subject of 3:15 is 'enmity,' 'I will put enmity between . . .' The enmity is the war that is going on now. It is the enmity that will overwhelm, bruise the head of the serpent. When you say after the Man of Sin's head is 'crushed,' others besides God will try and steal the glory . . . that is what is being done now with Pharmaceutical drugs. Silent hostility. Every individual that is ruling the United States that undergoes treatment to stop pain, even cancer, surgery to cut out things, chemotherapy, and that includes every joint ache, muscle ache, or headache is affected by the Pharmaceutical Industry. I wonder myself what meds President Bush is on. Senator Kennedy has probably been pumped full of them.
In the Middle-East region, there are different forms of psychoactive substances, such as poppy, so I wonder about the rulers over there.
Satan's Man of Sin controls the outside, he cannot come into the sanctuary. Where is the sanctuary? Is it in the desert? What about the two eagle's wings? That is where the woman goes to be kept safe from the persuit of the dragon. But the male child is already sitting with God up there in heaven with his rod watching as the dragon gets mad and goes after the rest of the belivers in Christ. And the dragon stood on the seashore as the two beasts come up from the sea.

12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.




If you read the above scripture it is definitely talking about another anointed future seed of David and it cant be Jesus because look what the scripture clearly states: 14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: Now Jesus does NOT COMMIT ANY INIQUITY every body knows that Jesus is the spot less unblemished Lamb of God. Could it be Solomon Davids son? He did build the temple didnt he?? but then he was lead astray by his many women and departed from the Lord.

Am i reading the above scripture way out of context and missing something here?

Also in the word it speaks of the Rod and the Root of Jesse, is that Jesus aswell?

God has given him a name and his name is Christ.....It only takes simple knowledge and common sense,,,

It says 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Answer this please---who do you know that has the power to rule all nations with a iron rod????

and who has been caught up to his throne????remeber it say "his" throne thats one clue in itself, it also says "his thone" which means the throne belongs to him.....So there is only one person who owns a throne near God....

You are over thinking this my friend....

The dragon is the second beast .....dragon, antichrist, false prophet , lucifer , 2 beast , satan tree of knowledge,,,all the same just different roles......

We go into error, because we want to pin everything down and put it into a neat box. God Himself, wrote about the man child in many, many types and shadows. God used Moses, Daniel, Samuel, Gideon, David, Mordecai, Joseph, Jesus, Paul, and many others to describe the man child. All were signs of the coming man child.

Jesus use to be ONE person , now He lives in many. That is what the Bible teaches. So the man child is Christ. But Christ now dwells in many.The man child is not just one person anymore, that man child (the ONE person Man Child.) was Jesus. One was not going to do it, so God made Him into many. You are all now Tabernacles of the living God. He now, for the first time (after Jesus came) lives in MANY.Better plan, to use many who walk as Christ, than to use ONE who walk as Christ.

Christ will manifest in us. That , the Bible teaches. Not in ALL (because many do not believe this and God will not find many who walk in faith in these days)


So the Man Child, is Christ in us, Christ is the head of the Body (bride) .Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: .............

That is how the man child is part of the Bride. He is the head...................Christ is the head of the church.

C

People stumble over this verse which talks about the man child being taken up to the throne.

Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

But, this is simple. The throne is a sign of authority as we can see in this verse:

Rev 3:21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

and here is the "rod of iron" verse, that shows that the man child is not Jesus, but Christ in us, (the overcomer)

We know this is Jesus speaking here, so He is not talking about Himself:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:

So the overcomer gets "caught up to the throne" (meaning, they receive authority.......they do not really fly away up into heaven!! ) and gets to rule the nations with a "rod of iron" (Its all there in the Scriptures, clear for all to read)

Very good verses C. We could say that the Body of Christ is the One New Man (child). As Christ is the Head of the Body, we are ONE...with many members. This includes Christ in us and among us. This Body (Christ) will rule with a rod of iron during the millenial kingdom. Jesus did say we would be one.

<><

John

Amen. Many are really looking to the wrong place. Just as in the time when Jesus walked the earth . The Scribes and Pharisees were in the temple, most probably discussing when the Messiah would be coming and how He would become King of Israel. At that moment, He was passing them in the streets on the back of a colt.They missed Him, because they did not have eyes to see.

Gen 29:17 And Leah's eyes were tender (weak)

Many are going to miss Him again, because their eyes are "tender". They look through the eyes of religion and will only look for Him to come "as King" on the clouds. They ignore "Christ in us the hope of glory" like it is just a small insignificant little thing, that the Bible mentions in the passing by. Its not, its the gospel: Its the mystery............Christ IN US, the hope of glory.

Many are in for a huge shock, when Christ will manifest in their brothers and sisters and not in them, because they did not look to the Treasure they carry in earthen vessels.

C

Many are going to miss Him again,---I dont know,,I get the feeling everyeye will behold him,,,and when he returns we will be in spiritual bodys,,,,I think everyone on earth is going to know He's here....

You are talking about the coming of Jesus on the clouds now, and not the coming of the man child . Jesus is first coming IN US, before He is coming FOR US.

C

It is so like God to put things in a place where no one would even think of looking. Like Jesus, the Son of the living God, being born in a stable. Lord!!!

...then He reveals Himself to the lowly babes of this world. What greatness and wisdom the Lord has!


<><

John

I understand what you mean by in us,,,but not the coming of the man child......

Psa 2:1 Why do the nations rage, And the peoples meditate a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against Jehovah, and against his anointed, (man child ) saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bonds asunder, And cast away their cords from us. (This is the time of the tribulation )
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens will laugh: The Lord will have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then will he speak unto them in his wrath, And vex them in his sore displeasure:
Psa 2:6 Yet I have set my king (Christ in us the: the Man Child )
Upon my holy hill of Zion. (The Kingdom of God...Hebrews , a mountain that we cannot touch)
Psa 2:7 I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son; This day have I begotten thee. (Talking of Jesus, who is now living IN US)
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, For his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.

Its all about Christ, not about us. We are dead and crucified with Christ and are no more. Now its only Christ............and He lives IN US.

That is why we have to talk as the oracles of God (only talk the Word) because Christ IS the Word of God. "No lie was found in their mouths" (they spoke the oracles of God) and we have to follow the Lamb wherever He goes.He went to the cross, and so must we. We have to die to self. We have to be virgins in the faith, and not part of the Harlot. We are without blemish, because He has perfected us in Christ. We have been washed in the blood of the Lamb

Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish

Brother, its getting a bit late here in Africa, so forgive me for signing off now, but I promise to explain it in detail ..

blessings
C

Goeie nag my china! (That's "bonne nuit mon ami" for those who don't parley in Afrikaans.)

<><

John

LOL thanks and now its morning again, and I can say: "Goeie more ,my china" (my china is slang for friend. BAD Afrikaans )

The Bible is clear that there are two comings of the Lord. The one that we all know about is the coming of the Lord on the clouds.


The second "coming" of the Lord is where He comes in manifestation in the believer. This is not something that I can show in one post, (God Himself, used so many types and shadows to explain this ! ) But we can start with John 16. If you will pray for understanding , the Lord Himself will open this mystery to you. The Bible calls it a mystery: Christ in you, the hope of glory.

First see if you can see that this scripture and Rev 12 have something in common:


Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world. Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

......now compare.................


Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.
Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.


Now, do you see that John 16 is about the return of the Lord?

If you can see those two things
1) the two scriptures are talking about the same thing
2) its about the return of the Lord

then look again at John 16

Joh 16:18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We know not what he saith. (This is about His return)
Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me? (Jesus is confirming its about His return)
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye (He is talking about them, in other words:the church)shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. (He is about to compare them .....the church....to a woman in travail)Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, (there it is ! Rev 12)because her (the church) hour is come: but when she (the church ) is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow:(because "ye" the church is that woman) but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

Notice something important: The church will rejoice when a man is born into the world
........................................The church will rejoice when we will see Jesus again.

Can you see that its the same event ! The man child's birth is also the time when we will see Jesus again.

Now if you are going to look at this with normal understanding you will say: How can this be? Where will Jesus be?

The answer is also in Scripture as I will show you later: He is IN YOU and there is where He will be seen first, before He comes back on the clouds.

C

are both of these comings of the Lord literal???

One is the physical coming of the Lord ( Parousia) . That is the one where He comes like lightning and every eye shall see Him. On this link in the BlueletterBible you will see the use of this word (parousia) that means the physical coming .

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon...G3952&t=kjv

The coming that happens before the "on the clouds" is described by some other words, that also translate into "come" or "coming" but they mean : to unveil, or to make manifest, to shine, to reveal, to uncover. Now at this moment Christ is in you, bu I cannot see Him. He is still covered by your flesh. That will change when Christ comes in us. That too is a literal coming, but He is not going to stand here as one Person. He will bring the believers into maturity.

NIGHTMARE I have to go out in a minute for the evening. I am still busy finding all the meanings for you brother. I have just finished work and now I have to go.

Here is a list so long with the words for "coming" and if you search on the www.blueletterbible.org they will give you all the places where the word appear in all the verses. But I will be back soon to help if I can.


Here is the list so long:

1. PAROUSIA. This word occurs twenty-four times in the New Testament. It comes from the verb PAREMI which means "at hand," "to be present." The noun signifies "Presence." This verb emphasizes the actual personal presence of the one who comes. "Be patient unto the COMING (presence) of the Lord" (James 5:7). PAROUSIA never indicates the act of coming or the arrival of a person, but denotes the presence of one who has already arrived.


2. APOKALUPSIS. This word comes from the verb APOKALUPTO meaning "to uncover, "unveil," and stresses the appearing or revelation of one by means of an uncovering or unveiling. It is the disclosure of one who has been hidden under cover. "Be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the REVELATION (unveiling) of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:13).


3. EPIPHANEIA. This word is to be found six times in the New Testament. It comes from a verb which signifies "to shine upon," "bring to light," "to appear," "to manifest." The noun is "manifestation," "brightness." It is the appearance out of darkness of a star that has been there all day, unseen and unperceived, and suddenly manifesting at night. This word is used in the sense of the glory or majesty that is revealed by the coming of the Lord.


4. PHANEROO. This word means to render apparent or make manifest, not necessarily a visible presence, but a perception. "When He shall appear (become apparent), we shall be like Him" (I Jn. 3:2).


5. ERCHOMAI. This word is used to indicate the actual act of coming, not, as with PAROUSIA, the presence of one who has arrived, but the event of coming. "Behold, HE COMETH (is in the act of coming) with clouds" (Rev. 1:7).


6. HEKO. This word stresses the point of arrival at a certain place, as I am come and I am here. "Hold fast till I COME (to you)" (Rev. 2:25).

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

This is the other coming of the Lord :
4. PHANEROO. This word means to render apparent or make manifest, not necessarily a visible presence, but a perception. "When He shall appear (become apparent), we shall be like Him" (I Jn. 3:2).

Can you see that we shall be like Him ?
Can you see that we shall be like Him ..............IF..................He shall be manifested? Why ........IF ?

The coming of the Lord on the clouds is not ................IF. It is WHEN.

It is IF because it will not happen in all Christians. This Phaneroo is a coming or manifestation in the believer (note: Believer ) Not believer in Christ,.............the demons also believe in Christ and they shudder.

What do we have to believe........so that He can manifest......(IF)

What do we have to believe?

One thing we must believe is this scripture:

2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

We all: (that is the church)
with unveiled face (not looking in the letter, but seeing the truth in the spirit)
beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord ( When you look into the mirror, you see the glory of the Lord looking back at you )
are transformed ( those who do this are changing)
into the same image (those who believe this is changing into what they are seeing the mirror )
from glory to glory ( from one glory to another )
even as from the Lord the Spirit ( God is doing this for those who believe this, through His Spirit )


That is why it is ..........IF...............because not all believe this and many have not even heard this truth.


C

We cannot believe that Christ is in the mirror if we do not believe Gal 2:20

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.


If we still believe that our old nature is alive and well and living in our bodies, then we are not believing the real gospel. Then we cannot see Christ in the mirror and we cannot be changed into Who we see. We will then NOT be transformed into His image and we will then NOT manifest Him


That is why it is .....................IF

We only receive grace from God , when we believe the true gospel .

Paul also told us to reckon ourselves dead to sin. That is in agreement with Gal 2:20
Rom 6:11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.

If you do not reckon yourself dead to sin, then you are reckoning yourself alive to sin. That is not the gospel. and you will not have any power to overcome sin. Those who do not believe this, will always fight sin in the flesh and never walk in victory, because God will not give them grace to overcome, because they do not believe the gospel and they do not reckon themselves dead to sin..................they believe they can never overcome sin in this life (If they believe that, it will be to them according to their faith )

That is why it is .......................IF

"When He shall appear (become apparent), we shall be like Him" (I Jn. 3:2).

This scripture should make more sense now And here is another one:

2Th 1:10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day


............in all them that believed See? its the same condition as in ........IF

IF you believe that you are dead and Jesus Christ now lives in you, you will see Him looking back at you in the mirror (by faith) and then God, through the Holy Spirit, will transform you into that same image that you see in the mirror. Then when he comes to be glorified ..............IN................His saints, people are going to marvel at this wonder that happened on this earth. Christ manifesting IN His saints. And they will be exactly like Him

That is the gospel

C

That is why God calls it : the MAN (mature) Child (few)

Because of the ........IF............. not many will walk this road, so few ( child) will manifest Christ .....mature......(MAN)

MAN CHILD

Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: (we are seated in heavenly places )a woman (the church)arrayed with the sun,(Jesus is the Son/sun and we are clothed with Christ ) and the moon under her feet (The moon reflects the glory of the sun, its not our own righteousness ), and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;(On her head, the gospel as taught by the twelve apostles)
Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. (John 16)
Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems. (Antichrist Beast)
Rev 12:4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: (Some Christians loose their place where they are seated in heavenly places, during the great falling away ) and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child. (Satan fears the mature Christians that manifests Christ and wants to destroy them )
Rev 12:5 And she (the church)was delivered of a son, a man child (Mature, small group of believers), who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.(given authority, not really taken up physically to the throne)


Rev 3:21 He that overcometh, (the MAN CHILD )I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.
This is the "caught up to the throne"

and here is the ruling the nations with a rod of iron

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, (the MAN CHILD) and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:
Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:

C I have been thinking on this for days also. I see where you are coming from. I do not quite get it YET but it has been tickling my brain for a week now.