The 4 kingdoms of Daniel 2 are:
Babylon
Medo-persia
Greece
Rome

Israel was a possession of all 4 kingdoms.
Rome never ended……….Rome became divided and weakened,,,,,,,but Rome’s reign has been continuous since the Greek Kingdom……….Read Daniel 2.

All kingdoms have a king………..they are not democracies.

The Roman kingdom’s king was the Caesars, then, later, the Popes.

The ten toes of the statue (Daniel 2) are symbolic of ********ALL******* the states of the ROMAN KINGDOM.

Shekel said: 10 = completion (note, 3, 7, 10 are similar, and 3 + 7 = 10)

*****ALL***** the states would include Israel.

Israel is independent now, but will become a possession of the ROMAN KINGDOM in the ENDTIMES.
The pope will own the PROMISED LAND. (or he’ll think he owns it,,,,,,,,really, God gave it to Abraham and Israel, forever)

The pope will reign over the ROMAN KINGDOM in the endtimes.

The ROMAN KINGDOM will include all the world, in the endtimes……….including the USA

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.





THE a/c has a plan to annihilate the jews………….
The jews will not accept a man who claims to be God………that was the stated reason for killing Jesus Christ.
The a/c will arrange for the Jews to re-build the Temple………..then, the a/c will claim to be god (a god-man)…..and he will demand that all men worship the a/c………….any-one who refuses will be killed

Then, the jews must flee to the mountains,,,,,,,,,,to escape the murderous a/c

The Jews will reap what they sowed………..they murdered the God-man………..a (fake) god-man will try to annihilate the Jews.
On Daniel’s 70 week clock, this is only 3.5 years after the Jews murdered Christ.



Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.













ISRAEL was an independent nation, from JOSHUA’S CONQUETS of CANAAN,,,,,,,to the BABYLONIAN EXILE.

After said Exile, ISRAEL was not independent.
586 BC
70 years of babylonian captivity.
Then,
536 BC………..MEDO-PERSIA ruled over Israel
Then,
AROUND 330 BC……….Greece ruled over Israel.
Then,
A brief time of independence.
Then, Rome ruled over Israel.



Jjjjjjjjjjjjjj

The 10 commandments are ALL the commandments.

Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
The young rich man said……..I HAVE KEPT ALL 10 COMMANDMENTS………..10 = ALL





Jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj

(the below is copied from Shekel)
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=286
Here is a quick summary, and generally accepted.

1 = unity
2 = testimony of two
3 = Triune God, perfection
4 = “Four Corners of the earth” (40 and 400 wandering/testing on the earth)
5 = basic unit of measurement (also, man’s hand??? “Fifth rib”??)
6 = number of man
7 = perfection/completion
8 = new creation
9 = incompletion
10 = completion (note, 3, 7, 10 are similar, and 3 + 7 = 10)
11 = unit used in multiples to stress a number---(i.e., “77” is 11 x 7, “666” is 111 x 6, etc.)
12 = Twelve tribes/apostles = “chosen” “foundational”
13 = imperfection/ not chosen
14 = 2 x 7
17 =
19 = a lunar cycle
40 = generation
65 = shattering
70 = various applications depending on context
100 = generation
360 = a prophetic year
1,150 (2,300), 1,260, 1,290, 1,335 (430) = similar meanings, but with complex usage. See “The writing on the wall” on net. Basic meaning is a period of trial for both the wicked and righteous---but with vastly different outcomes.

As for the rest, most would be speculation

Hi Dennis Mann,
I believe 2:45 clearly dictates FIVE world empires.
With Best Regards,
DaDad

Yes!

4 beast kingdoms plus 1 Christian Kingdom.............PTL!

i was thinking of the 4 kingdoms before Christ-kingdom

i believe that Christ is not a beast.............thanks for the correction

that brings up an interesting point...........God sees the worldly (fallen) kingdoms as beasts.............Why?..........they are lawless, wicked, satanic, anti-christ, wild, dangerous, murderous, man-eating, useless, destruction-ready,

Hi Dennis Mann,

I think you misunderstood my contribution of the worlds empires - iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold, -- 4,3,5,2,1, (FIVE):

NOMINAL
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman -- (founded Republic/Representative Gov't)
5. Clay, "divided"
(6. Great Stone)

DETAILED
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman -- (founded Republic/Representative Gov't)
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- (has Republic/Representative "iron")
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- (has Republic/Representative "iron")
-- 7. Leopard, China -- -- (has Republic/Representative "iron")
-- 8. "dreadful", U.N. -- "was and is not" because it has no geography, no population, no army, etc. -- (has NO Republic/Representative "iron")
(9. Great Stone)

With Best Regards,
DaDad

yes, i mis-understood you

daniel 2;37
babylon was a kingdom
nebuchadnezzar was king of the kings

verse 39
medo-persia was a kingdom

v 39
greece was kingdom

v40
rome was kingdom
v41 rome was divided kingdom...........how many kings does a divided kingdom have?........i don't know

v44
the ten toes are ten kings...........but these 10 kings are the 4th kingdom (rome, verse 40)

v44 the christ-kingdom shall break/crush/consume all these kingdoms


AMPLIFIED BIBLE

Hi Dennis Mann,
I believe you missed the information in verse 45. That passage dictates FIVE empires as I had attempted to provide earlier.

Please be aware that commentators often ignore that which contradicts their "version" of scripture and history. I would propose that you evaluate these passages independent of their "council" and use scripture as your primary source, history and your secondary source, and the commentators when you need a good laugh.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

To All,
I was just reviewing Dennis' citation from Shekel (in Post #1), and had something revealed which I had puzzled over for some time, and yet it was SO obvious!

Please allow me to re-post the following:

DETAILED
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman -- (founded Republic/Representative Gov't)
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- (has Republic/Representative "iron")
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- (has Republic/Representative "iron")
-- 7. Leopard, China -- -- (has Republic/Representative "iron")
-- 8. "dreadful", U.N. -- "was and is not" because it has no geography, no population, no army, etc. -- (has NO Republic/Representative "iron")
(9. Great Stone)


Do you get it? If not, read it again.

There are NINE empire eras! (I.e., "incomplete".) So where's the TENTH? (I.e., "complete".)
Ahhhhhh, the TENTH is the NEW JERUSALEM!


Wow! Dennis, as I suggested previously, ALL scripture is ment for us, and if 2:45 doesn't fit your doctrine, you REALLY should change your doctrine.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

mountain = government

mt zion
mt sinai
mt moriah
mount of transfiguration
mount of olives

abraham (God) was up in the mountains/hills (high in heaven)........when the men of Sodom (low in the valley/earth) were destroyed.......a foreshadow of the endtimes destruction/judgement
Lot is the Righteous people, vexed by the wicked deeds of Sodom, and saved from destruction.



KJV
dan 2;37
1st kingdom = babylon

v 39.......2nd kingdom medo-persia
v 39........3rd kingdom .........greece
v40.........4th kingdom.........rome
v42.........the 4th kingdom is divided ........part iron.........part clay...........the 4th kingdom is partly strong.......and partly broken

v44.........the Stone smashed the image..........the image is of 4 kingdoms

the christ-kingdom will stand forever

so, there's only 4 beast kingdoms..........then, the christ-kingdom is different from the image-kingdoms, because christ is not a beast

notice that the satanic kingdoms are metal (man-made)...............the Godly kingdom is stone (god-made)

v35...........the stone became a great mountain (government),,,,,,,,,and filled the whole earth

Hi Dennis Mann,
Please incorporate ALL evidence into your doctrine:

45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. ...

This is the iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold, - 4,3,5,2,1, - which I suggested. Please do NOT disregard this verse simply because it contradicts your doctrine.

However, if you do decide to ignore this text, please allow me to suggest that a "Sharpie" sometimes bleeds through the page to obliterate the text on the other side; an "Exacto" will have similar consequences; and tearing the entire page out of your bible will have more significant consequences. -- You might consider a ball-point-pen. This should render that annoying verse moot.

Hey, wait a minute, -- what about all the other bible which have been printed? Maybe you could start a "bible correction" club, and YOU could be the President!

With Best Regards,
DaDad

All of the corporate everythings will come to nothing.

Merriam-Webster online Dictionary
incorporate
: to form into a legal corporation b: to admit to membership in a corporate body

Corporation
1 a: a group of merchants or traders united in a trade guild

Ezekiel 28
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.

The antiChrist=Azazel

Dear Dude,

2. to put or introduce into a body or mass as an integral part or parts: to incorporate revisions into a text.
3. to take in or include as a part or parts, as the body or a mass does: His book incorporates his earlier essay.
4. to form or combine into one body or uniform substance, as ingredients.
5. to embody: His book incorporates all his thinking on the subject.
6. to form into a society or organization.


So if Dictionary.com, (and the rest of the known universe), has such an easy time with this word, why would someone detract from a discussion unless they were an obstructionist or had a different agenda?

I believe the Topic is "... All 4 Kingdoms ...". Please incorporate 2:45 into your post.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

PS
Dear Adullam,

The antiChrist=Azazel
I'm not sure how one can find merit in your post.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

are you flirting with me?

i'm a married man!

Hi Dennis Mann,
Certainly some men are attracted to men who act like women, -- no rational thought processes, -- and apparently you are more feminine than most.

But if I had your doctrine, I'd try to divert the subject to ANYTHING ELSE, even homosexual topics. -- Its an old tactic (as old as Satan), but still effective. Give my best to your father...

With Best Regards,
DD

it's interesting that all 4 beast kingdoms,,,,,,,,plus Christ's Kingdom.........are KINGdoms..........(not democracies)

they are dictators, kings, kingdoms

even Christ rules the world as a Dictator,,,,,,,,,but, thank God!, He is a Perfect Dictator,,,,,,,,,we trust Him to rule with Perfect Love.

Hallelujah!

even though people live thru the Mill Reign in near-perfect conditions,,,,,,,,many will reject Christ,,,,,,,and they will rebel against Love and Truth at the end-of-Mill-reign,,,,,,,,and they will be destroyed

so, the Bible is True!..........the heart of man is desperately wicked!........who can know it?

Dear Dennis,

Rules for Debating with a Losing Argument
#1 Try to divert attention from the issue.
#2 Keep repeating your conclusion rather than addressing any basis.

I would love to keep repeating "people are inherently smart", and it would become true. Unfortunately, there are some which those words will never change.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

Ref. Daniel 2:45, -- 4,3,5,2,1, -- FIVE.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=45;

Daniel 7 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation



Daniel 7
1 [a]IN THE first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions in his head as he was lying upon his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the gist of the matter.
2Daniel said, I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of the heavens [political and social agitations] were stirring up the great sea [the nations of the world].

3And four great beasts came up out of the sea in succession, and different from one another.





god sees these 4 kingdoms as ferocious beasts............Daniel 7

man sees the 4 kingdoms as glorious and impressive.........Daniel 2








4The first [the Babylonian empire under Nebuchadnezzar] was like a lion and had eagle's wings. I looked till the wings of it were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand upon two feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.(A)

5And behold another beast, a second one [the Medo-Persian empire], was like a bear, and it raised up itself on one side [or one dominion] and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, Arise, devour much flesh.

6After this I looked, and behold, another [the Grecian empire of Alexander the Great], like a leopard which had four wings of a bird on its back. The beast had also four heads [Alexander's generals, his successors], and dominion was given to it.

7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast [the Roman empire]--terrible, powerful and dreadful, and exceedingly strong. And it had great iron teeth; it devoured and crushed and trampled what was left with its feet. And it was different from all the beasts that came before it, and it had ten horns [symbolizing ten kings].©



why is the 4th kingdom (rome), seen as terrible, powerful, dreadful, exceedingly strong,,,,,,,,,,,compared to the first 3 kingdoms?

the ROMAN kingdom will be the one with the ANTI-CHRIST!...........the world will be crushed by the EXCEEDINGLY POWERFUL AND WICKED ANTI-CHRIST.

all anti-christs before the endtimes were little, compared to the ENDTIME ANTICHRIST!

he will be a man, indwelt by satan.









8I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots; and behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth speaking great things.

9I kept looking until thrones were placed [for the assessors with the Judge], and the Ancient of Days [God, the eternal Father] took His seat, Whose garment was white as snow and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was like the fiery flame; its wheels were burning fire.(D)

10A stream of fire came forth from before Him; a thousand thousands ministered to Him and ten thousand times ten thousand rose up and stood before Him; the Judge was seated [the court was in session] and the books were opened.

11I looked then because of the sound of the great words which the horn was speaking. I watched until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

12And as for the rest of the beasts, their power of dominion was taken away; yet their lives were prolonged [for the duration of their lives was fixed] for a season and a time.

13I saw in the night visions, and behold, [b]on the clouds of the heavens came One like a Son of man, and He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him.




look!
the "son of man" (jesus's favorite name for himself, after the incarnation, is here,,,,,,,,,,before the incarnation!)









14And there was given Him [the Messiah] dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom is one which shall not be destroyed.(E)

15As for me, Daniel, my spirit was grieved and anxious within me, and the visions of my head alarmed and agitated me.

16I came near to one of those who stood there and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of the things.

17These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth.

18But the saints of the Most High [God] shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.(F)

19Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast--which was different from all the others, exceedingly terrible and shocking, whose teeth were of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke and crushed, and trampled what was left with its feet--






verse 19 describes the antichrist in the endtimes............much more terrible than anyone before him

the greatest destroyer, liar, murderer








20And about the ten horns [representing kings] that were on its head, and the other horn which came up later and before which three of [the horns] fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things and which looked greater than the others.

21As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them(G)

22Until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High [God], and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

23Thus [the angel] said, The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all other kingdoms and shall devour the whole earth, tread it down, and break it in pieces and crush it.

24And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise; and another shall arise after them, and he shall be different from the former ones, and he shall subdue and put down three kings.

25And he shall speak words against the Most High [God] and shall wear out the saints of the Most High and think to change the time [of sacred feasts and holy days] and the law; and the saints shall be given into his hand for a time, two times, and half a time [three and one-half years].(H)

26But the judgment shall be set [by the court of the Most High], and they shall take away his dominion to consume it [gradually] and to destroy it [suddenly] in the end.

27And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heavens shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions shall serve and obey Him.

28Here is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my [waking] thoughts troubled and alarmed me much and my cheerfulness of countenance was changed in me; but I kept the matter [of the interpreting angel's information] in my heart and mind.



Footnotes:

Daniel 7:1 This chapter, in its subject matter as well as its position in the central part of the book, is to the book of Daniel what the eighth chapter of Romans is to that epistle. Next to the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah (and perhaps the ninth chapter also), we have here the most precious and prominent portion of the sure word of prophecy concerning the coming of the Messiah. The chapter is worthy of the most careful prayer and study. It is referred to directly or indirectly by Christ and His apostles perhaps more than other portions of the Old Testament of similar extent. It appears to have been regarded by the Old Testament saints in the centuries preceding the Messiah's first advent as preeminently the "word of prophecy" (Homiletical Commentary).
Daniel 7:13 Notice that the four beasts of this seventh chapter of Daniel symbolize the same world kingdoms that were pictured by the images in Dan. 2, and the ten horns of the last beast correspond to the ten toes of the legs of iron (Dan. 2:41-42). Much of both prophecies has been fulfilled, and at this writing "the blessed hope" (---. 2:13) of the ages is also showing every evidence of nearing realization. Both visions portray the end of Gentile world power. View the events of the present in the light of these disclosures, and they fall into focus and make sense. The individual child of God is challenged as never before in the world's history to let go of the trivial and the transient, and to yield himself unreservedly to Him Who is coming back to fulfill the longings of every true believer--forever and ever!

Cross references:
Daniel 7:4 : Dan 2:37, 38
Daniel 7:6 : Dan 2:39; 8:20-22
Daniel 7:7 : Dan 2:40-43; 7:23
Daniel 7:9 : I Kings 22:19; Ps 90:2; Ezek 1:26-28; Dan 7:13, 22; Matt 19:28; Rev 20:4
Daniel 7:14 : Rev 5:1-10
Daniel 7:18 : Rom 8:17; I Pet 2:9; Rev 3:21
Daniel 7:21 : Rev 13:7-9
Daniel 7:25 : Rev 13:1-6

Hi Dennis,
Please allow me to suggest that before you arrive to Chapter 7, you must first transcend Chapter 2. Thus if Chapter 2 depicts FIVE world empires, the FIFTH which is "divided", one can only concluded that Chapter 7 represents that "divided".

Please solve 2:45, iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold, -- 4,3,5,2,1, FIVE -- before proceeding any further.

With Best Regards,
Dadad

Good job Dennis. Anyway you cut it, it's four kingdoms.

God specifically gives us the definition in two ways so that we won't go back and REDEFINE what He has said.
Daniel 7 lays it all out.:

Dan 7:1 ¶ In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.


Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.


Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.


Dan 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.


Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.


Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.


Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.


Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Dan 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.


It says this last kingdom with 10 horns comes out of the 4th beast!

If we are still confused Daniel reiterates that after the 4th Beast the Ancient of Days returns:

Dan 7:15 ¶ I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of [my] body, and the visions of my head troubled me.


[b] Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

We must conclude Daniel got the interpretation directly from a Holy Angel or the Lord of Hosts. You won't get a better interpreter!

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth.


Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Anyway, Bravo Dennis.

thanks for the encouraging words!

PTL!

Sure Dennis...yep Praise Jesus...

That other guy said similar rude comments to me when I disputed his citation of Cyrus sacking Babylon...when Scriptures say it's Darius the Mede....

I must assume the 2 were in cohoots together, thus making it just like prophecy says, the Medes and Persians!

I can never figure out why people want to change what it says rather then research further and find out why it says what it says.

I heard that the account of Belshazzar was mocked by the historical elite society for years on end until some fragment of stone from Mesopotamia indicated that he was Nabonidus first son....and Nabonidus did not live in Babylon proper and had left his son to rule the city.

So, a 2300 yr old dispute about the accuracy of Scripture came to an end abruptly and all the nay sayers moved onto another point that they could archeologically oppose!

Hi Dennis Mann & Patmos,
I believe that you two are happy with each other because neither of you can answer 2:45 to a fulfillment.

That's OK. Most of the commentators do the same with their theological conundrums, each little group kissing each other and distaining the rest. All self deceived, but very happy.

But if I might ask one favor, please do not use the word "research" with your doctrines. How about "fairy tale", "fable", "wishful thinking", or any number of descriptors, but somehow "research" doesn't seem to apply.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

PS
when Scriptures say it's Darius the Mede ... sacking Babylon...
Please provide the above scriptural citation.

DaDad,

I understand you don't agree with us, but that's ok.

Here is the citation for Darius the Mede (Median)

Dan 5:24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.


Dan 5:25 ¶ And this [is] the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.


Dan 5:26 This [is] the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.


Dan 5:27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.


Dan 5:28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.


Dan 5:29 Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and [put] a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom.


Dan 5:30 ¶ In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.


Dan 5:31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, [being] about threescore and two years old.

Hi Patmos,
I really don't have a problem either agreeing or disagreeing with you and Dennis, so long as you agree with SCRIPTURE!

So please allow me to point out the discrepancies with your interpretation (presuming scripture is perfect):

1. Nabonidus (556BC - 539BC) is King over Babylon (i.e., #1), and is off expanding the empire
2. His son, Belshazzar is left in charge (i.e., #2)
3. Belshazzar hosts a party and Daniel interprets the writing
4. Daniel is made the third ruler in the kingdom (i.e., #3)
5. The idiot son is murdered by his nobles for hosting a party when he should have been focusing on saving the capital city and their lives!
6. Darius the Mede is appointed the new king (i.e., the NEW #2)

Daniel Chapter 6
7. These nobles are jealous and attempt to eliminate Daniel
8. Darius knows that Daniel is the only one he can depend on for GODs protection and plan
9. Darius cannot save Daniel from the lions den
10. Daniel survives
11. Darius throws the nobles into the den for their treachery
12. Daniel propsers in the reign of Darius (the Babylonian) AND in the reign of Cyrus the Persian (NOT Persians, plural, -- but Persian SINGULAR)

Daniel Chapter 11
13. Darius is fearful of his future, being that Cyrus' army is diverting the Tigris
14. The Medo/Persian (1 of 3); the Grecian (2 of 3); the Roman (3 of 3); and the "divided" which takes a span of time to arise, -- all fulfill world history in accordance with 12:4 & 9.

There are a myriad of arguments for a Babylonian King with Median descent, but no scriptural, historical, or rational argument for a Medo/Persian Darius the Mede. If there were, the historians and commentators would be able to substantiate your premise, but they fumble around like blind men with an elephant. Each has his theory, but all fail:

Gaubaruva (Cyrus the Great's general)
This Gobryas played an important role in the Persian capture of Babylon in October 539 BCE. He was the Median governor of Babylon following the conquest of that city by Persian ruler Cyrus the Great until he died a few weeks later, on 4 March 538.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gubaru

There's also a governor which could be the person you reference:
Gaubaruva (the governor of Babylonia)
He was appointed in this function by the Cyrus the Great in 535 BCE and is mentioned in several cuneiform texts from Babylonia, in which he is called Gubâru.In Ancient times, he was best known for the canals he had dug or repaired. Several cuneiform tablets are related to this activity, and more than six centuries later, the Roman author Pliny the Elder knew of a 'prefect' Gobares who cut a canal to protect Babylonia from the Euphrates flooding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gubaru

I believe the commentators prefer the Gobryus candidate for this Darius the Mede. But as you should observe above, this general died a few weeks after the capture of Babylon. And I believe that one could consider the relative expectation that Gobyrus entered the city with his full entourage. As such, it would seem illogical for this general to appoint an unknown, untested, Jewish eunich to hold the top position as 1 of 3 Administrators over the entire kingdom.

Furthermore, it would seem out right preposterous for this General Gobryus to take such an obsessive interest in this castrated stranger from some distant conquered Mediterranean city, with only a ~3-week courtship:
Excerpt from Topic: "Who Is Darius, And Why Should We Care?", page 4, post #22


With Best Regards,
DaDad

Do you know of a nation that is not ruled by those who are antichrist?

Dennis Mann,

Just what is the origin of the two and ten horned beast?

The theory of a Revived Roman empire developed from the stigma Rome acquired by being credited with the crucifixion of Christ, the destruction of the temple, and it's many years of persecution. Because of this, it's my opinion that interpreters began with the conclusion that Rome would be the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2, and also become the origin of the beast's final kingdom and religion. It is also my opinion that much of the Catholic bashing comes from prejudiced, unrepented and misinformed individuals.

I think that in Daniel 2, bible interpreters were convinced that the fourth kingdom would be symbolic of Rome, so it appears to me that some interpreters worked their way back starting with the fourth kingdom in their interpretation.

Sadly enough, there are several interpretations by bible scholars that atheist have used to debunk the bible and this is one of them. (Atheist Kyle Williams)

You, as most do, say that the second kingdom is the Medo-Persian empire. I say the empire of the Mede's is the inferior kingdom because that's the kind of kingdom the word inferior implies. The Persian empire was about three times the size of the Babylonian empire. How is that "inferior"?

Daniel 8 actually describes the rise of this inferior kingdom. The kingdom of the Mede's is described as a horn that was smaller and that also came up first upon the ram.
Daniel 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

The Persian empire was larger (higher) and came up "last". So the rams 1st horn, the smaller one, is the Medes, the inferior kingdom of Daniel 2.
Daniel 5 does say that Darius the Mede took Babylon. Not Cyrus the Persian. The bible is also the historical authority on Darius since secular history has little to say about him. The inferior kingdom is a question people don't like to confront because this is the only place the word inferior also means land. In Strong's there are only three words for inferior and they are used only 4 times total in the OT. They always imply less than, cast down etc. The same is true in Greek. However, in this verse the word for inferior is #0772 "ara" which means
1) earth, world, ground

The second kingdom being inferior is the only thing said about it. less, earth, ground...

Therefore, by the correct use of this word alone,
I can only conclude that the sequence of kingdoms should be interpreted as follows.

1. Babylonian.
2. Mede's.
3. Persian's.
4. Grecian's.

Scripture excludes Rome as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2.
Now, problem #2. Another one people don't like to confront.

Therfore, the fourth kingdom, symbolized as toes mingled with "iron and clay" comes from the Grecian empire. That empire did not cover Rome or Europe. Here's the problem. The word mingled or mixed used to describe the toes "mingled" with iron and clay is a Chaldean word meaning "arab".

My question is why would the Word use the word arab to describe a Roman or the Roman Empire? The word "mixed" always implies an Arabian or Arabia.
Therefore it better describes the religion of Islam and the Arab world over Catholicism or the EU. The verses that describe the iron and clay are better represented by the Arab Muslim world. They are a broken, brittle and divided world. Iron and clay also better describes the Sunni (iron) and Shia (clay) sects of Islam.

And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

This is so true of the Arabs. They have over 250 differt tribes of Arab/Muslim's in Northern Africa alone.

The toes mingled with iron and clay symbolically represent the coming ten nation Islamic empire of the ten horned beast. The antichrist will unite Islam and by this peace...he will destroy many within his kingdom, and his harlot's offspring will destroy many worldwide.
Another question...

If Rome is the fouth kingdom of Daniel 2... How can Rome be the beast that was and "is not" if Rome was in power when John wrote Revelation?

There is overwhelming evidence in scripture to question the revived Roman Empire. The lawless man of sin and the world's final enemy will not be a religion of popes, priest, altar boys. It will be a lawless religion that commits beheadings, suicide bombings, and the detonation of nuclear, biological, and chemical bombs. That's what Islam is going to bring to the world besides Armegeddon.

It is my belief, and the belief of many others, that the man of sin will be an Assyrian which is part of the Grecian empire. (Isaiah 10, 14, and 30 all depict an Assyrian as the tool of God's wrath in the last days.

about Darius...
Darius the Mede went into battle with Babylon because he was older than Cyrus and the custom was to send the elder into battle. The Mede's were the better warriors. The Persians were the better nation builders. Cyrus the Great was actually related to "Darius the Mede" through his wife (Mandane) who was the sister of "Darius the Mede". (Their father was Astyges)
I appears that the Mede's and Persian's were somewhat allies and migrated to the area of "Persia" together. The Mede's were more to the north and east toward Turkey. And I'm convinced the Persian's and Mede's shared a lot of culture etc.

The bible say's Darius the Mede invaded Babylon. I've read that he did it with the help of some Persian warriors. And I've also read that the Mede's ruled Babylon for about 50 years. There was a political/family dispute where some of them died and then they became a strong confederacy actually known as the Persian empire. They never battled one another. It was more like a family coup because they were allies.

I use to believe like you do Mann. But no more!

SW

Hi SW,
Although you have addressed you post to Dennis Mann, please allow me to suggest that you have not captured the intent of Chapters 2 or 8, the muslims, Revelation 17, or Darius the Mede. -- Everything's shot up except the target! (No offense intended.)

If one were to start at Daniel 2, and work their way through the evidence, it would seem a simple solution.
With Best Regards,
DaDad

Well, have at it big daddy! Instead of posting all your useless suggestions, show me the bulls eye.

SW

The Lord says

Because the corporation, corporate, incorporated, incorporate, was thought up by the devil, has a devil foundation, has only been used by the devil, until lately, and will all vanish away with the devil.

The agenda is to usher in the kingdom of God and the cost is the total destruction of the world.

Do you have a problem with that?

Hi SW,
I'm not called to drag someone who is not willing. However it would seem that all the threads are contiguous if one simply had a relative basis. So if one were to identify the FIVE world empires in chapter 2, and history were to substantiate them, then one could further evaluate subsequent chapters accordingly.

So please allow me to ask if you agree that there are FOUR unique world empires, but also FIVE distinct world empires? (Ref. 2:45 - FIVE.)

I.e., such that the FIFTH was based upon the foundation of the FOURTH, but is it's own non-dependent entity. -- The Roman empire conceived the Republic/Representative form of government, but when that empire dissolved, that attribute was not replaced, such that we have this form (iron) in our governments today (clay). And in this, NONE pay taxes to that new government (Italy) in that historical geography (Rome).

With Best Regards,
DD

dear pope-lovers,

the pope is a blasphemer,..............he claims to be the HOLY FATHER (the name of god in John 17)

please stop protecting the RCC and the pope.

Rev 17 and 18 is a perfect description of the 4th, final kingdom of the Daniel 2 image/statue.........the 4th kingdom is rome, the rcc, the pope is the king of that kingdom

daniel 9;26
the prince that shall come (the endtimes a/c) is roman
his people are roman
the romans destroyed the city jerusalem and the sanctuary (jewish temple), in 70 ad
this destruction was AFTER the end of the 483 years
the 483 years ended on palm sunday, 4 days before the Cross
the Cross was on thursday afternoon

which kingdom conquered the (3rd) greek kingdom?..........the roman kingdom

who established great conditions for the spread of the Gospel?.......good roads, universal language,,,,no need for visas to travel anywhere in the kingdom, peace among nations, etc?...........Rome............PAX ROMANUS........the peace of rome

many nations that were conquered by rome........enjoyed the PAX ROMANUS............the Caesar brought us PEACE!

DAVE HUNT asked the israelis "how will you recognize the messiah when he comes?"...........THEY SAID "he will bring us PEACE!"

the GREAT ENDTIMES ROMAN A/C WILL BRING US PEACE!............a fake satanic peace.

thanks! thank you, very much!

great opponents bring out the best in me

we christians are matured and perfected in this great titanic struggle,,,,,,,,good vs evil........it's very fascinating!

The answer is No! Every nation on earth is ruled by that which is ungodly, not Christ like at all . So the antichrist is already in charge of the world. Why is everyone waiting for what is already here? Maybe because they are part of the problem and can't come out of their strong delusion.


2 Timothy 3
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


2 Thessalonians 2
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

To All,
Governments are NOT the source of a/c misconduct. To suggest that portent is a violation of scripture:

Romans 13:
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

With Best Regards,
DaDad

All of those scriptures are to be followed within the righteous judgment of the Lord. If the government requires that you sin against God. You are to refuse and resist even to death. Sin against God is what every nation is requiring now. It is the reason that the entire world is about to be destroyed and also the reason for these scriptures.


Isaiah 34
1 Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish.
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.

there is coming a time, very soon, when the govt will require me to take the MARK OF THE BEAST

and if i take the MARK, i will burn in fire forever

and the whole world knows this............and the whole world will be against me, when i refuse to take the Mark

except, of course, there will be a tiny minority that will not take the Mark

this shows how sin-sick the world is..........like Shekel said........"the whole world (generally speaking) is ripe for judgement"

that's why this is the ENDTIMES

Great Dennis
That means that you don't sign your name any more and have thrown away the social security number that the beast has given you to buy and sell within it's borders.

That is good news Dennis.

we dis-agree

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

my ss number has nothing to do with worshipping the beast

and the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that i am a child of god

and i love the brethren (a Sign, Proof, that i am saved from my sins)...........
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

You! Who are so anxious to debate Satan's strategy, why do you waste your time on the enemy, instead of turning to the ONE who can deliver you from evil? For if you had done so, then Salvation would have been closer by now. Stop wasting time!

SW,
Are we still in for this? (see Bolded above)
DD

No problem Dennis
We are going to give you all the chances that you need. We are going to destroy that nation before your eyes and it's false christ with it. You will have plenty of time to come out from among them and be seperate.

No you do not have plenty of time to move away from sin.

[quote name='dennis mann' date='Jul 7 2008, 12:44 PM' post='207664']
"...............





god sees these 4 kingdoms as ferocious beasts............Daniel 7

man sees the 4 kingdoms as glorious and impressive.........Daniel 2


................"

[quote]

I may not see eye to eye with you in all of your understanding, but what you said here was VERY observant!

Good question!

My suspicion too, *possibly*....what brings you to this conclusion?

Dennis,

I've heard it all before. And I use to believe it all before being a recycled Catholic. When I did my own studies rather than listen to the big shot Protestant's etc., I changed my thinking because what I was taught was not in alignment with the Word. The words in their original language give us a deeper understanding of the prophecy. But too many people would rather remain in denial rather than admit a mistake. The big shots would rather wait until proven wrong rather than come clean. They don't like me.

Regardless of Rome's horrible past. It does not mean they will be the evil beast of the future. The revived Roman empire theory contradicts other prophecies which I'll point out sometime.

Refute what I just explained to you about two words...that's what I would like to see from any of you!

Sw

rome murdered christ.

God will cause you to reap what you've sown.

so, Christ will execute rome and the Roman Prince (the ENDTIMES a/c)

the Stone/christ (Daniel 2) strikes the FEET of the image,,,,,and crushes the whole image (not just the FEET)...........rome is a continuation of Babylon

the entire image is BABYLON THE GREAT (REV 17)..........rome is the last (and most perfected form) of babylon the great (rev17).

read rev 17 and 18..........it is a perfect description of rome/RCC/pope.

will God forget the sins/crimes of the RCC/pope, for the last 1500 years?.........no

the COUNCIL OF TRENT is the perfect doctrine to justify the murders of the Saints..........rome has murdered millions of Saints..............the RCC/pope has never rescinded the COUNCIL OF TRENT (or any other Council)............

every pope, including the current pope, must re-affirm all the Councils and Decrees of the popes/RCC when he takes office.

the INQUISITION is alive and well today

spiritually speaking, rome continues the murders today.........she continues to teach a Gospel that will not save us from our sins,,,,,,,,,and many are decieved...........many die un-saved, as RCC, today