Using the Bible to prove the Bible DOES NOT WERK.

How about using the Power of God to prove the bible? Would that work? But then if that power was fire from heaven that removes the unbelief from earth then that would be a shame for those who had a chance and knew that they should have been searching for God. I am here to tell you, there comes a time when those who have no faith in God will be burned. You have been warned and are now without excuse.

the bible-text itself proves that the bible is true.

1. fulfilled prophecy
2. the great love described in the bible surpasses all other love in the world
3. the changed lives of bible-believers

the ASSOCIATED PRESS studied "self-improvement " books ,,,,,,,,to see which one was the most effective..........the Bible was the winner, as per the AP

the AP is not known for being religious

That is because the person that told you this false statement, does not know . . .


Computer Analysis And Proofs That Holy Spirit, DID GUIDE WRITERS OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...c=20859&hl=

I mean saying:
The bible is true because in the bible the bible says it is.

Oh I see your point . . .

And what did you think of this research ?

http://www.rangeguide.net/panin.htm

COMPUTER ANALYSIS AND PROOFS THAT HOLY SPIRIT
DID GUIDE WRITERS OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

That is a different debate, really. Before that one happens, we must first find out if the "Holy Spirit" exists or not!

No not a debate on Holy Spirit.

The topic you started on the first post :

QUOTE (Gravelz @ Jul 3 2008, 02:54 AM)
Using the Bible to prove the Bible DOES NOT WERK.

Now I will re-enter the same question :

What do you think of this web link's research, in reference to the original topic ?

http://www.rangeguide.net/panin.htm


Indeed, when the divine time is set in order, I will present the debate for you on
Holy Spirit.

I can understand instructions, very well.

Now, as you would say, " Keep to the topic " ( smile )

Unless, you cannot perceive what the web link has researched. Just let me know
and I will try to set the stage on a level playing field.

Blessings . . .

There are certain times when using the bible to prove the bible is okay, but I'm talking about using it for circular reasoning. (The bible is true because in the bible it says the bible is true therefore the bible must be true because the bible says it is.)

Oh !

Kinda like this example ?

Panin was known as a firm agnostic - so well known that when he
discarded his agnosticism and accepted the Christian faith, the
newspapers carried headlines telling of his conversion.


Click here: Dr Ivan Panin - Bible Numerics research
http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html

IS GOD A MATHEMATICIAN?

By Keith Newman.
The authenticity of the Holy Bible has been attacked at regular
intervals by athiests and theologians alike but none have explained
away the mathematical seal beneath its surface.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many times the Bible is correct, you still can't use it to prove it is true.

In fact, you can't do that with science books either.

If a science book goes "everything in this book is true because in the book it said so," does not prove the science book true.

To use it as proof would be a fallacy.

That is why the science book does not have a divine seal. The cosmic universe does
have a divine seal, which reflects upon the work of Panin.

http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html
(mathematical seal beneath its surface)

And to not use the mathematical seal discovered by Panin, is a fallacy of intellectual
falsehood.

No, it is not.


Begging the question. We haven't found a divine seal in the universe.


Unfortunately, correlation can never establish causality.

Yes, the word angel, is a cosmic universe term. Angel is not an earth book of science term.

And here is the divine seal of the universe under the word, Angel.

There are many divine seals.

And this is not just correlation, Neal, it is mathematical sacred geometry. Which super-imposes the Divine Truth
of numerics into a order of Divinity, not human origin.


( from Panin's web link : http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html )

BY CHANCE?

1 in 10 to the power of 169 or 1 followed by 169 zeros!!

LOOK AT THE WORDS OF THE ANGEL TO JOSEPH

The angel used 28 of the 77 vocabulary words .......... 4x7

The Numeric Value of all the angel's words is 21,042 ................................... 3,006x7

The angel used 35 forms ............................... 5x7

These 35 forms have 168 letters ...................... 24x7

The Numeric Value of these letters is 19,397 ...... 2,771x7

The angel did not use 49 vocabulary words ............. 7x7

The angel did not use 70 forms ....................... 10x7

The Chances of this being an accident or by human design is ONE in 206,000,000,000,000,000,000 (206 QUINTILLION- 21 digits).

Lol, people still believe in angels?

And they come from the "And Santa Claus wouldn't lie arguments."

I guess you did not read my near death drowning experience ?


( excerpt )
When the angel pushed me out of the water, from my foot caught
under my back [ I was stuck bent backwards, I totally emerged
and like a rocket f o r c e d to the surface ].


See Neal, it is not a game.

When you die, as a child you know not how to lie.

You see your little friends splashing in the water, laughing and playing.

While looking from the tree top, knowing my small body is held under that water down there.

However, no fear.

Only fear, when I was forced to the surface by the angel.

The full story is at my bio.

When a girl lifeguard performs C.P.R. on me after I drowned, I called her an angel. ;d

She had wings. ;d

And for sure, she was your earth angel.

And no person can tell you that you almost did not drown, correct ?

And no person can tell you that a girl lifequard did not complete C.P.R. on you , correct ?

And you are not blind, you know the difference between wings and breast. ( Ha )

However, Neal . . .


When you have from childhood survived a drowning, that remembrance, became not only a
survival event.

That event started many events of ' the knowing ' of events to happen. Dreams that were events
to occur.

As you live your life, I have lived mine in the continuance of the gift's from Holy Spirit. They cannot be
ignored, neither can I try. I did at one point, try to think like you think Neal.

It does not work, to be like a Jonah and whale story. I have a mission I embrace, fully.

Yes, you are thinking, " Oh no, first the angels then Santa Clause, now she is thinking the Jonah
swallowed by the giant fish was real " . . . ( laughing, falling - out . . . more laughing )

I can fully tell you, that I have experienced a full life @49 years old, of a combination of ordinary
every day things and experiences.

However, it would be a lie to pretend the not-ordinary divine experiences did not happen, that I decided
recently to post at the new bio, blog.

When you have hundreds of things that have been in all stages of your human existence, to point
to the Divine nature of the Creator, no person can change those key points of reference.

Not death, nor insult.

this is a stupid thread


When are you people going to quit feeding these trolls?


you're NOT going to "save someone's soul" over the internet...


quit giving them attention.


i'm taking this to the mods.

Obviously, I don't think there is much hope for a rational person that can go against God.

As I don't think God is a loving God, I can't possibly expect to go to Heaven or paradise (or not go to Hell).

Better to expect to go to Hell and find out you go to Heaven than to expect to go to Heaven and find out you go to Hell.

Better to expect no afterlife than to expect an afterlife.

This is because any afterlife, no matter how bad, is better than none at all.

The idea that it is better to have been born and died than to have never lived, etc.

And if God is not a loving God, then we're screwed.

If the Christian God doesn't let Muslims go to Heaven because they're Muslims, then the Christian God isn't a loving God and not worthy of worship.
If the Islam God doesn't let Chrstians go to the Islam Heaven because they're not Muslims/follow the 5 pillars, then the Islam God is not a loving God and not worthy of worship.

Who is the Christian God? The God of the New Testament.
Who is the Islam God? The God of the Qu'ran.
Who is the Judaist God? The God of the Old Testament.

As a non-religious, expect to go to the worst afterlife of all religions possible.
If you follow 1 religion, expect to go to all Hells of all other religions, etc.

This argument could turn to "Better to follow all the religions past and present of the world than to not follow any," etc.

There is an atheist wager, which goes if God isn't a rational God, then he isn't worthy of worship.

There are very few reasons to be an atheist, and there is 1 or 2 I particularly like.

My Dad at 69 has an older friend from Ukraine. He suffered an explosion as a child during World War II. That day he became an atheist. And he's been an atheist ever since. And no 1 has convinced him yet there is a God. And I sympathize with him. He has 1 arm. He has 1 eye. And his 1 arm only has 4 fingers. Which he suffered for the rest of his life. If anything, God got what he deserved, imo. I personally too could be an atheist if something like that happened to me, not to be rational, but to revenge against God (yes, the irony).

So what can you do if God is not a loving God? Absolutely nothing.

Neal C.

Hello NealC,
I dont usually do this, but just this once I will, because I am sorry about what happened to your dad, and what you have had to live through.
But here is my humble input.

Your father was injured by evil, evil people, using soldiers who often don't have any say in what happens or does not happen on a battle field.
If your father was the follower of one of the so called christian religions, He was a beleiver in the lies and replacement theology that all of those comunities will teach....and have done for centuries.
God did not play a part in your fathers injury I can assure you, If he was there on orders of his own commander, he was subject to the laws of man and not those of God.

God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Who freed His people from Egypt 'was' a terrible God. He exacted discipline and fear from his people, but loved them and lead them through the centuries where other nations like Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Hittites, Phoenesians, Moabites, etc have all been wiped out. (read Deuteromony)

The 'New Covenant' is through His offering of His only Son as payment for our sins. This is because God is after all a loving God.....He still states that "Vengence is mine!" meaning that we are not to take revenge for the things that happen to us. Tell your father this. Tell him that if he searches the true scriptures and does not follow man, he will find the word of God and be comforted. He will not find this in a church but in the body of Christ.

Its hard for you to understand this. But it is well explained by the word of God in the scriptures (King James Version.)
Go to 'www.theshininglight.info' and do some easy reading. Go to 'thebiblestudysite.com' and find heaps of stuff, all supported by scriptures......email the owners of these sites for answers to your questions and you will see.
I have read and emailed these guys for some time and cannot find too much that is wrong with their articles.

I wish you grace and peace in Jesus Holy name.......Do as I ask. You will find what you need I assure you.
If you have any other questions, PM me.

Cheers and God bless. Meshuganah

Neal,

God did not do this to your Father...war is mans decision and it engages us on
every level by those that govern us...

Sometimes a war can have what seems to be a just cause, what we are told,
but the death count of lives for a soon forgotten investment is not enough.

God would have that all come to Him...if that were true, there would be no
place for war becaue there would be no war in the heart of mankind. We
are not there, yet.

If I could only ask you to ask the Messiah these same questions...He would
answer you. Some questions take a lifetime of unfolding, but it is worth the
wait and the anwer is Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. You can secretly,
to yourself test Him. Ask Him into your heart and ask Him to understand
a different perspective that will give you light and give you something to give
to others...hope.

Blessings,
Signet

Um this was my Dad's friend, not my Dad.

Um no, there's no evidence whatsover that God is a loving God.

There is a Creator. There is no such thing as a creationist. He Created the living and the dead.
If you have come to learn about the living then ask the appropriate questions. If not then go back to the dead where you came from.

Meaning one who believes that god created earth and everything.

Yeah, you fuss about the Bible but you too are beating your own drum!

You don't believe in the power of the Bible, yet you are saying/doing the same thing you are accusing the Bible of doing! Of course the Bible is going to say that

"All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, that that the man of God mau be thouroughly equipped for every good work!
(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Believe what you want.

I for my part beleive that you are not satisfied with your own beliefs of what the Bible truly is, otherwise, what would you do on a Christian forum? Why don't you go on an atheist forum and have everyone agree with you?

I tell you, if you LOVE the truth, you will find it.

Even him {Antichricht} whose coming is after Satan with all powers and signs and lying wonders, with all deceivableness of unrightousness in them THAT PERISH, BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE FOR THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. For this end God shall SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE.

(2 Thessalonians 2:9-11)



As long as you love to have your ears "tickled", you will not find the truth.

Jesus said "I am the way the TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."

1.I go to several Atheist forums. I like to hear opinions from all beliefs. Sorry. I believe that if you do not hear the voices of people who disagree with you, than you are stupid. That applies to Religion, government, etc.


Tsk, tsk. What if a muslim loves the truth and thinks it is the Qu'ran? What if Atheists love truth and think religion is not the truth? Really now.


I would not say that everything in ANY book is true because the book says it is. Only if it is proven-or played out enough to be taken into a debate.

This is called stringing a bunch of words together!

Gravelz's argument was about using circular sources as sources, not about how much anyone can complain.


Accusing the Bible of what, exactly?


Um no, that's not okay.


Heh @ female logic.


If we were to lower our standards to accept this as true, we would have to lower the equal standards to believe that if a someone else said that too. This is why we have standards.

Meaning a title made up by the dead to scorn the living amongst the dead. No matter how mushy sweet the dead try to be they are still dead and can't join the living. The Spirit of God knows the creature and his boundaries but the creature can't know the Spirit of the creator or the life prepared for the living.

Well then, this doesn't apply to us since we're alive.

Hey ya Neal ------------- ( smile )


Here is the answer to your excerpt : Heh @female logic



http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...45&hl=~thou
~thou Shalt~ :prophecy(tau)400,pentenance (samekh)60,, Providence(Lamed)30,Prudence(Teth)9,Platonic(Heh)5



Platonic Solid (Heh) 5 :

The image of the letter He is a window. The letter stems from a root that means "to breathe" in the sense of allowing air and light. To see and to breath are two vital aspects of life.
A window allows light and air to come in. It is an opening by which the light outside can reach us.

Christ, is the LIGHT of the world.

The letter Heh , the fifth letter of the alphabet, in general meaning universal life, clarity, the breath of existence, the act of feeling and willing, spiritual knowledge, and universal magnetism. But Heh is also part of the name of YHVH (Jehovah).

http://www.nal.usda.gov/pgdic/Strawberry/book/boktwo.htm

THE STRAWBERRY, 5 PETALS, are symbolic of Heh(5) :

In a further quotation we read, "Künzle (the herbalist) writes that the people of the middle ages saw in the three partitioned leaf a reminder of the Holy Trinity; the fruits, pointed downward, were the drops of blood of the Christ; and the five petals of the flower, His five wounds."4 (See Plates 2-2 and 2-3.)

Hi Neal,
Sorry about the misunderstanding about your father...Doesn't really make any difference.
God is a loving God, (like my own father) but is much to be feared (like my own father )
if I do not do His will.
I have filled my obligation in telling you where and how to find the truth. If you are too stupid and stubborn to follow then this is your problem alone and I will not waste any more time on you.
Jesus said....."do not throw pearls before swine!"

Bye now 'oh lost one' and good luck.....boy are you gonna need it!


In Jesus Holy name... Meshuganah.

Love is a positive number. Dislove (or hate) is a negative number. The absense of love (and dislove) is 0.


Um, contradiction..

You don't fear loving people/things.


This is more proof that he is not a loving God.


These come from the "And Santa Claus wouldn't lie, arguments." The New Testament always tell the truth!

This argument is equivalent to "You are a fool if you do not follow the Qu'ran!"


I guess you're better of saying, "Jesus says I am the light, the etc."

Swine is pig, right?


Hey absolutely.

If you love the Lord, "The Son of God", then you are alive. If you reject God and His son you are not alive. Those who reject the Lord will not even be remembered among the living.

So I can't be happy without believing in "the lord"? I can't experience the joys of this life if I do not believe in him? Looks like my life is false then, because I am quite happy.




If your God is so loving, then why can't he recognize those who do not believe in him? Is he to jealous that people think he does not exist or that he is not the real god that he can not let them be remembered? Einstein, one of the greatest thinkers ever, was not a Christian. (Nor was he an Atheist, but you get my point.)

Right, this is what I'm referring to when I say God is not a loving God. I don't require you to "love" me, for example. And I certainly won't punish you if you don't.

God is actually a very jealous God, and a lot of people in this forum admit that.

That is what i was getting at.

Also, God is a ruthless murderer.

Um yea. In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

It's funny how people believe the God in the New Testament is the same as the God in the Old Testament - no personality change.

I mean, how can he be a loving God and be so pissed to flood the entire planet killing the entire human race except 8 people: Noah, Noah's wife, his 3 kids, and their 3 randomly-picked girlfriends.

Either that or, more lies the Jews made.

No! You are not happy. Where sin exists every evil thing is there. You sin by saying there is no God. That makes you a liar and not believable.

God is Loving to His Friends. He didn't create everyone to be His friend. He created some for honor and some for dishonor. The true God of heaven is not bound or governed by your perverted view of Him. But you are bound by His purpose for you.

Sin is actually an intresting weasel word. What does Holy mean? "Of God." What does sin mean? "Of not or against God." Or something God condones. So it's just circular to say it's a sin to say there is no God... which wouldn't mean much outside the theist's circle, imo.


And yet Christianity teaches to love our enemies... right C?


So you're saying it's not our faults that agnostics are agnostics and atheists are atheists?

Yes, forget everything. It should be wether or not I am a Christian that makes me happy. YOUR LOGIC IS FLAWLESS.

You have no ears to hear. No one said you could become a Christian. But you are not happy and you are a liar.

Of course it is Your fault. He gave you a choice and you chose the wrong way. You Should have chose "The Way" "The Truth" and "The Life".

God rewards those who are faithful. Throughout your life God will seek to grow you in your faith. He will continually bring you to times when you must trust Him. He will lead you into situations that require a "little" faith, and if you are faithful, He will then take you into situations that require even greater trust in Him. Each time you are able to trust God at a higher level, God will reveal more of Himself to you. Your faith and experiencing God are directly linked.

The best way to tell if you are prepared for a greater revelation of God is to see how faithful you have been with what God has given you. This is a foundational principle in God's relationships with us: If you have been faithful with the little He has given you, you are ready to be entrusted with more. If you failed to trust God with the little He gave you, He will not trust you with more. God will not lead you beyond your present level of trust and obedience to Him. He will return you to your area of unfaithfulness until you are prepared to trust Him. The children of Israel were unwilling to trust God to lead them into the Promised Land, and their generation never again was able to move forward with Him.

You stand at an exciting new door of opportunity to know God more intimately every time you believe Him. Every step of faith leads you to a deeper relationship of faith with Him. It is an open invitation to know God more intimately.

That is the Gospel of man. But Not even close to what Christ taught or what is real. It is not a process. It either is, or is not. You have either asked God for His Spirit and received His Spirit or you are not saved and have nothing to do with God and Christ.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

No no, see, you are mislead. Do not be deceived.

The logic behind my argument is *FLAWLESS*.

It is not scriptural, not Christ like and has nothing to do with the Gospel of Christ. It can't be flawless because if it doesn't belong to Christ it belongs to the devil. That wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. Capiche?













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