Rev 12: 1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The Bible clarifies and takes the guesswork out of who the woman and the man child are.

Isaiah 66:
7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

So, according to Isaiah, the woman is Mount Zion and the man child is her children. (Those of you who think the woman is something else need to provide scripture that refutiates Isaiah.)

Many have an opinion of whom the woman and the man child are based on conjecture, that Christ is to "rule with a rod of iron."” True, however, John states that "those that overcome" will also "rule with a rod of iron" with Christ.

Revelation 2:
26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

So, the man child is not neccesarily Christ.

One other conjecture is that the man child is to be caught up to God’s throne which many of you feel is in Heaven. Revelation 12 is future prophecy. Jeremiah clarifies at that time, Jerusalem will be the throne of the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:17
At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the LORD, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the LORD. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts.

But you might say, that the woman is to flee into the wilderness. How can Mount Zion flee into the wilderness. My response is that the wilderness is a catchword, a reference that points us to what happened to Israel (in the past) when God protected Israel when she was in the wilderness.

So what did God do for Israel when she was in the wilderness?
1. He protected Her from harm with a pillar of fire and a column of smoke.
2. He fed them manna.

These two thing God will do for the inhabitants of Jerusalem during the 1260 days of the GT.

1. Protection with a pillar of fire and column of smoke.
Isaiah 4 2In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. 3And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: 4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. 5And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. 6And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the day time from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

2.He will feed them manna.
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

In review, the woman is Mount Zion and the man child is her children. Those that overcome (Christians) will rule with Christ with a rod of iron.” And the throne of God will be Jerusalem.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Greetings in the Name of Jesus:


if I may interject, and Give the Interpretation given me by Spirit.


Revelations 12. is a parabled prophesy of times of man from Israel, until the end, focusing on Jesus " child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of Iron". And his sacrifice and of his salvation.

Now rev 12: 1-9. is a parable prophesy. and verses 10-12. is the interpretation of 1-9.

rev 12:10. KJV, begins with, " Now is come salvation" in conclusion of rev 12: 1-9 .

These two parts are one and the same, one written in parable, and then the other, is interpretation of the first.

example... rev 12:9 " Dragon was cast out". which tells you it is Satan. And then rev 12:10 " the accuser of our brethren is cast down". which is also devil or Satan.

Cast out, and Cast down. both are the same, and both done by God, and Jesus, and Michael. of which Satan is defeated Once by God. which this Chapter tells in two different perspectives of the same event.

What I am saying is Rev 12:1-9. is the Jesus story of defeating Satan in a parable form. explained in rev 12:10-12.

Which is Only my opinion, as the Spirit so directs me.

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

Which Jerusalem? The city built with stones, or the New Jerusalem (us) ?

C

Rev 12: 1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

It is a prophecy that came true. Fatima and the dancing of the suns. The moon under her feet is the earth. She is seen to be wearing a crown, given by the Roman Catholic Church. 12 stars are them 12 apostles of jesus. She is seen holding a child which is jesus. Jesus is the man child and who is the king of the world, he rules. He then is caught up to God and seated at the right hand of the father.

Hello C,

Mount Zion the mountain in the place called Jerusalem.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Greetings in the name of Jesus:


Speaking as to the truth of revelation 12.


We should all agree that it is a prophesy one that is a very symbolic form.

Now forgive me for saying this; but unless people of God, seeking wisdom of God through his word, and prophetic word; submit and acknowledge God, and or Jesus, in all things,then one cannot then truly be one of spirit in wisdom of Word or the prophetic word.

In laymen terms, Only God can give Interpretations; and all interpretations will come only, with a relationship and Knowledge of Jesus in the word, and in humility and faith.


Now revelations 12, is no different in that " Jesus " is the Key to discernment of all things. Which I guess people can disagree with this. But for me it is always of truth and sure; and of power which only comes from Jesus and Knowledge thereof.

Now then if Jesus is the Key to revelations 12; where is Jesus? well he is directly commented about in rev 10-12. In a parallel interpretation with a Joining of verses of " now has come salvation" rev 12:10.

And the Key to revelations 12: 1-9 ; which is the parable prophesy part, of rev 12. The key is Jesus, which is rev 12: 5. which is the " the man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" who is caught up to God. this is a traditional theme about the Messiah. He who shall be King, and rule all nations with a rod of Iron. I have never seen or heard of any scripture depicting any one else but Messiah and or Jesus used this form, or depicted as such. which is," rule all nations with a rod of Iron". God Never changes and is always consistent as to truth.

Now Acknowledging Jesus is Child born to woman of 12; then clearly the Jewish nation can be the 12 tribes woman; meaning Israel, which bore Jesus, who was to rule all nations with a rod of Iron, caught up unto God, and to his throne, who's throne? The child's throne, who is Jesus.

Now comes the Michael who cast out the Dragon Satan. which most Christians agree, that Satan was defeated Once and forever By God, and or Jesus, which Jesus defeats also Satan, and is depicted in revelations 12:10 Casting down Satan.

Now the question now comes, How many times was Satan defeated by God, or Jesus or Michael?

I say and submit the Scriptures are sure in this: that Jesus defeated for all time the Power of Satan, and cast him to earth. As revelations 12:10 does say and also paraphrases rev 12: 1-9, as to his story and life. and sacrifice, being caught up to God. And the woman being then persecuted, is the Jew, which unless you deny reality and existence of Hitler, the woman is and was persecuted.

Now I ask forgiveness, for I shall be bold and Say: this wisdom and discernment I claim not of my self or flesh, but of God, of word and spirit, so speaks to me. and if those who cannot comprehend this and discern its merits as to truths, as so written in Gods words, then it by choice.

Do so deny and or comprehend not; Is of self choice, to not to hear and or comprehend.

but its not my calling to make any understand or believe, but to only speak unto truth, that men might hear truth, and choose to accept or deny, but only that they, hear and comprehend, which I shall endeavor to be clear on this. So I say, those who read, have been told of this truth, and interpretation thereof.

I pray my words do not offend, or my boldness of spirit, I pray God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

I do not understand .

1) Guysmith, why would you go back to an Old Testament Jerusalem, when we have a New Jerusalem. And why go to a physical mountain that can be touched, when we have a Mount Zion which cannot be touched?
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them;
Heb 12:20 for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned;
Heb 12:21 and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:
Heb 12:22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels,

So I do not understand on which scripture you base your understanding of a real physical mountain, as we are in the New Testament.

2)Spiritofprophecy , I have a similar problem with your post, because if we read the Scriptures, we see that Christ now lives IN His body (Body of Christ) He is Emmanuel (God WITH us) You and I are the temple, you and I are the city on a hill (New Jerusalem) so where is Jesus NOW? ..........IN US

So rethink that scripture, because it was written many years after Jesus was born, so this is not a rehash of old history, it is still coming. Look in context, it is speaking of the time of the tribulation.

Your thinking is correct, but your "Jesus" is in the wrong place and time. Jesus is IN YOU. You must know that I am writing the truth, because its all over the Bible !

C

The man Child is Christ. Without the chief cornerstone the building can not be built. Without Christ we can't make up the body of Christ. Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

That is right. SO let us move along with the gospel and place Christ where the Bible says He is: IN YOU

Then we can look at Revelation with new eyes . Rev 12 is not history , its prophetic, like the rest of the chapters that follow:Rev 4:1 ..........Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

"hereafter" means, everything we are now going to read, will be prophetic and in John's future (not his past, or it would not say "hereafter" )

Meta is a not a good word to be basing doctrine on. Not a good word for doctrine at all.

It can mean "accompanied 1, accompanied* 2, accompany* 1, after 82, afterward* 3, against 4, amid 1, among 5, away 1, before* 1, behind 1, companions* 5, end 1, follow* 1, gratefully* 1, hereafter* 1, later 12, now* 1, together 2, together* 1, toward 3, without* 2

Actually the correct translation that fits the numeric pattern is : " I will show thee what things must come to pass" (things are not in the original) but "come to pass" are the words that is 100% correct.

Google Panin and the Numeric New Testament for more info. I never really talk about it, because people like the KJV so much they will fight about it, so I leave it alone. But the Numeric New Testament is 100% in that every word has been tested with mathematics. Even singular and plurals, so its a very nice Bible to lay your hands on. As far as I know , you can get it from no bookshop, but I ordered mine through the Internet . Tell me and I will provide his info for all who want to get hold of one. Its worth it , if you are serious about studying.

C

I find a big difference in this passage of scripture between the Byzantine, Alexandrian, and Latin texts. One even implies, "Were", "Are" and "Will Be". That leaves that passage "shakey at best" and not a candidate to build doctrine on.

Just one for instance where that translation is seemingly not correct would be "The Woman Clothed with the Sun" .

Even though Mount Zion, where the Lamb and His Saints, Elders, and apostles rule from is the final out come.
She started with the Faith of Enoch and Abraham and even includes the Birth of Christ. She is Past present and future.

Even as far Past as Gods purpose before anything was created.

What can I say brother. I have already told you what I believe about the numeric pattern.

The numeric pattern is " woman arrayed with the sun" .

The man child is not a mystery anymore. It is simple the new leadership of the church coming out of the larger Body. (woman) She is standing on the moon and reflecting HIS glory (sun) and she has the teachings of the apostles as a crown (twelve stars) , she wears the gospel like a crown.

The manchild is foreshadowed by many in the Old Testament, but also foreshadowed by Jesus Himself. He too is a SIGN .

Luk 2:34 and Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the falling and the rising of many in Israel; and for a sign which is spoken against;


The man child is Christ in His people. But you also must agree that this is a truth, that is "underpreached" (new word ) today. Not many understand what it means in reality to live the truth of Gal 2 :20 so there are FEW (child) but those few are mature (man) so its a "man" child" that will come from the "woman"

C

Greetings in the name of Jesus:


On Judgment day, many shall say; Lord, Lord, we cast out demons in thy name; and Jesus will answer, yeah but I knew you not: Better it is that you are either hot or cold, for if you are but luke warm, I shall spew you out.

"Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men"...

" Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potters clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, he had no understanding?

Put not faith in doctrines and Institutions of men, which seeks to enslave and deceive: but put faith in the sure cornerstone, and sure nail of God, which is Jesus, and Gods words, KJV.

Only professed Christians shall be accepted in to Gods Kingdom. those who are One with Christ in spirit.

All others who claim Catholicism or Protestantism, or Brotherhood, or Numerology, or any form of Institution of men as their faith, will be spewed out, for they trusted in men, and institutions of men, and were the " blind leading the blind".

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

So then you are out there displaying the Power of the Spirit of God? So that everyones faith will be based only in the Power of God and not in the wisdom of men?

1 Corinthians 2
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

You are all in error. Get out there in the wilderness and find God while He can still be found. God is not in the pages of the book. He is out inhabiting His creation. He is waiting for you out here.

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our Glory: which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. but as it is written,

Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them the Love him. " KJV 1 Corinthians 2:4-9 .

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

The stone which the builders rejected. the same is become the head of the corner.

God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

So I guess the conversation about the man child is over .

Amen Spiritofprophecy
I take that as a Yes. How about you Charlie.


Praise God for that.

It doesn't have to end there C. I have a few unimportant things to say and ask about it.

You used the word foreshadowed. But the 24 elders will be there, Daniel will be there, Christ will be there and the apostles will be there.
They are all part of the manchild and they were all here and gone before the writing in revelation was writen.
So doesn't it have to be Past, Present and Future?

If they are all part of the man child, then who is the woman ?


My understanding is not complicated. The Bible uses a "woman" many times to describe the church. In John 16 Jesus Himself calls the disciples "a woman in travail" "having sorrow" "but when a man come into the world they will forget their sorrow, because they will see HIM again" (my words)

So Jesus was speaking to them about Christ being IN them . And He was telling them to look THERE, inside, where Christ is, and the He will first come form THERE, before He comes on the clouds.

The woman is the daughters of Zion.

The above passage is referring to Zion, and not Judah necessarily in the beginning. The ten tribes of Israel never came back, they were LOST, and they still have not come back. This is not necessarily talking about the whole tribes of Israel in the beginning that is.
Remember the Kingdom of God starts as small as a mustard seed. This mustard seed is going to be Elijah, the one to come, who prepares a people for the Christ for when he will re-establish a covenant [though there is another covenant that the little horn makes]. The Israelite [Judah] people do not at the moment believe in Christ [Joshua Ben Joseph]. Thus how can these Jewish people today start this movement described in revelation?. No! it's Zion!

This woman starts from the coming Elijah, and these people [Israel] will see physical tangible results and prove that God is with them, Once they, the Jewish people [some] see that God is indeed with these people, they will join them as a [Zionist] nation, others will join for selfish reasons or other motives. Once this moment is established –Zion—they will start constructing the temple, and will start offering sacrifices, and will establish the many laws, regarding the temple, sacrifices, purification, etc. But this will be in times of trouble of course. The King of the North will be fighting with the king of the South.

This movement will have knocked down the dome of the rock that was sitting on Mount Moriah, of course this will start a war, but these people spearheaded with Elijah will overcome any forces.

This new established movement will bring Christ to this temple. This is the woman that later will incorporate the whole nation of Israel, even the lost ten tribes later. This woman [group of people] in the beginning will teacher others and these will be the offspring of the woman. And these will teach others in turn about the true religion and not the phony one that it is out there.
The Church and the woman are complete separate. This woman is Zion as a nation. The woman [Zion] will have to fight for her existence and survival, but the Church on the other hand is NOT command to fight for her survival. The True Church is the one the little horn makes war with. But the gates of HADES will not prevail entirely on the church.

For the Love of Zion, may she be establish soon!,

and may that piece of manure that is currently sitting on that holly hill be pulverized!

OK C
A little more explanation. Believe me I am interested in what you are saying, But I don't understand it. Here is a little more of what I have come to believe.

The moon is used for the observation of days months years and seasons. The garland of twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Isreal. Clothed with the Sun shows a dark skin people who work in the fields who have no rest or cover. The Daughters of Zion have always been the problem. "Those who rule over you cause you to err". But in Gods Plan He has brought to birth Perfection even from inperfection. The Man Child.

The dark Skin people cold be wandering threw the desert. And the moon under her feet shows that She has been in Gods purpose as long as the moon has been charting the days for Him.

The garland of twelve stars also in signifies that she has given birth to all twelve tribes of Israel.

What did I Say? Where did every body go?

You do know that this very image was seen in the stars , round about 1998 do you? Virgo had the moon move through her (it looked like she was giving birth to the moon) from the Leo (Lion of Judah) until she literally stood on the moon. At which time the twelve stars of Bernice were her "crown". And when you observed this (only from Israel) was she "clothed with the Sun" because the sun was under the horizon, only throwing light on her.

This will not happen again, for (if I remember correctly)about 27000 years. So God placed this in the sky to appear at the time, when the "mystery " of Christ in us, became something that God is slowly unveiling. Why now? Because it is now the TIME for this revelation.

You are seeing correctly as well , when you see Jesus and Mary , because they are signs (look in Luke 2) of things to come. Jesus fulfilled a sign and WAS a sign at the same time. So were the disciples signs of things to come as well. But now you have to move on with the gospel and not be sidetracked by the type and shadows ! (I do not want to make this too long ! ) But here is a short comparison: Like Mary the church must receive the WORD (seed) and become "pregnant" (John 16) with Christ. (Let it be to us according to Thy WORD ) We are to receive the Word ONLY (unleavened Bread/pure water of the Word:no doctrines of men) Seed bring forth after its own kind (Geneses) and so the Seed of the Word bring forth :Christ (30, 60, or 100 fold Matthew) God is coming for the Fruit.

the 30, and 60 cannot be the man child (they are the church) but the 100 fold in Matthew CAN and they ARE the man child . They are bringing forth Christ 100 fold. Its on our Bibles , all I am telling you , you can read for yourself.

Something is coming: Its Christ IN US Who is coming NOW. First IN US, then FOR US.

C



...........................

(The daughters of Zion are just a Biblical name for denominations)

I always find it interesting that people want the woman to be Israel and not the church. Why are people scared of the fact that the church is bringing forth mature Christians. Its about time, don't you think ? We have been "at it" for 2000 years with no big shakes at all.

These times have been prophesied and they will be. God is going to manifest maturity in the believer who believe this. We are all going to get exactly what we believe (That is why some only get 30 and some 60 fold....because that is all they believe.) But some are , according to the Bible, going to produce 100 fold. 100 fold is FULL. No more space. Christ is now fully manifested.

C

Here is a link to some things on the real event in the sky.

Please take note that I am NOT underwriting their doctrine. I only give this link, because I found this in Google as I searched for the event. I do not know them, nor have I looked at what is further on their site

http://www.apostles-gathering.com/signsintheheavens.htm

Interesting, this I did not know before :

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:

Its Biblical that the stars carry the gospel. The Magi also looked at the stars when Jesus was born, because God at that time ALSO placed a SIGN in the sky.

Now think about this scripture:

Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Here Jesus is talking about the same thing. The woman in travail of Rev 12

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

Its so clear: Jesus is saying, You are asking when you will see Me again. But I tell you , you have sorrow now, because you are like a woman in travail. But just like that woman, you too will soon forget your pain and sorrow, when you see ME again IN YOU.

He is saying: Just like a woman who is pregnant, you are pregnant with Christ in you. Its difficult, and it brings sorrow and pain, but when I come forth IN YOU, you will soon forget what it took to bring ME forth in you.

I can back this up with MANY scriptures. Old testament and New.

your brother

C

And the stars shall fall to earth. The stars seen spiritually are the hosts of heaven seen on earth. Sign of the times for sure...

Jesus is the morning star that appears before dawn. Expect Jesus to resurrect at the beginning of the "3rd day".

I see the woman as both Israel and the church. Part is history...part is present and future.


As the statue of Daniel was history - Nebuchadnezzar, and the kingdoms were represented by the different sections...it is also Satan.

The Holy Spirit enlightens and quickens our own spirits together with our understanding. Otherwise we remain as blind as the next man. God has been calling out a people (Ekklesia) from this world all along. Those who trust in ethnicity or shared memories, as they call it, will miss what God has planned for those who hear Him and follow Him by faith. God's way is shining brighter and brighter until the fulness that is shortly to be revealed. Some think that God's way in Christ is slack. Mockers deny the efficacy of God's power. It is very wrong, however, to think that the NT calling is inferior to the OT calling. Many who profess to be believers have never known Christ. Christ is the fulness of God in man. We are now offered a chance to partake of that fulness. Why have so few come forward to receive of Him? The Israel of God follows Christ. All others are reprobate. The promises of God belong to the Spiritual Israel and not to a reprobate nation. Both Jews and Gentiles must repent from dead works and turn and be healed by God's own hand by Christ in the Spirit. He who does not repent will perish. There is no carte blanche with God. No one is favoured. How long can we abide the carnal arguments of those that seek to make fun of the sovereign work of God in Christ?

<><

John

Brother, that also speaks of Christians falling away.

Have a look:.............I sware unto Abraham thy father.
Gen 26:4 And I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these lands. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

You and I are seated in the heavenlies with Christ at this moment. So we are "in heaven" . For a "star" (Christian) to fall to earth, is for the Christian to be part of the great falling away.

Also:

Yes brother. I tell you, the fear of the Lord is upon me in a way that it has never been before. Time is short and God has shown me even today, that the time for "me" is over. Its death to the flesh or NO Christ within you.

I have feared for my salvation today and the salvation of many of my Christian brothers and sisters, who seem to be just carrying on in the same old way. I have prayed that the Lord will open my eyes and now that it is happening , I am in shock . First for myself and how ignorant I am and then for the body of Christ who walk this road with me.

Sorry, this won't make much sense I know. But to me its very real.

C

Yes, that is because everything that has been, shall be again (Ecc 1:9 ) Out of Israel Jesus came the first time.........the second time , He comes from the church.

That is why this scripture is so important:2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh (PRESENT CONTINUES TENSE: Its not speaking of Jesus coming in the flesh in the time of the disciples, its speaking of Jesus Christ coming in the flesh in a NOW and CONTINUESLY NOW way )in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

That is what it means to have Christ IN YOU. Present continues. He is now at this moment coming in YOUR flesh. It can ONLY mean that, because that word is not past tense and we all know that Jesus is not coming in His own body of flesh again. So the only flesh that He can come in ,is the flesh of the Body of Christ. (You and me )

I recognize these images that are displayed in this thread as old catholic prayer cards. So for who needs enlightenment on these snares that come and try to lure you in futile debates, know that you are dealing with covert catholics.

Then take me on, ye serpents. The last day that catholics controlled me, is way in the past.

As for the rest: this thread is the trash that it wants to be (except what C is saying of course).

In Revelation Chapter 12 we are presented with the Image of a Woman in pains to give birth. This is clearly accepted as the righteous church of God about to produce a Prophet.
We have several clues as to how to place The events of this Chapter in the timeline of History. First is that the Dragon Standing before her that wants to devour her child is seven headed, ten horned and seven crowned. It is accepted that this beast is a representation of the Roman empire after it is divided into ten. And, because the crowns are only seven, the 3 divisions that the Little Horn Power of Daniel Chapter 7 are to pluck out from the roots, must have already been plucked. This gives us a date of after 538 AD when the Ostrogoths were destroyed.
This fits perfectly with the second clue as to the time period in Question. Once the male child is born, the Righteous Church (the woman) is relocated to the Desert (or wilderness) for the Times, time and a half a time, or 1260 prophetic years. This time period both from Daniel and Revelation is well established as referring to the period from 538 AD to 1798, while the Beast of the Holy Roman Empire ruled.

Continuing to borrow on the symbolism of Daniel to interpret Revelation, we set up the Statue of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Which represents the Non-Abrahamic empires from Babylon to Rome) next to the Woman of Rev 12, interpreted as the Righteous religious community of God. Standing next to one another we can see the time periods set before us from the Time of Babylon to the the fall of Rome when Rome was divided into ten. The Golden head of Babylon is across from the 12 stars around the Womans head. These are often considered the 12 tribes of Israel and therefore Judaism. Then across from the shoulders hips and legs of Medo-Persia, Greece and Pagan Rome, the Woman is clothed in the Sun. This is often simply interpreted as pure teachings of God, but would be centered on the time of Jesus Christ. Then Across from the feet and 10 toes of the statue we see under the woman's feet: the Moon.

So To put this all together, what prophet, destined to rule with a an iron rod would come in the desert in the time period after 538 AD and be represented by the symbol of the Moon? Of course this is Mohammed.

And of course this perfectly explains the meaning of the rest of Revelation Chapter 12. "15-Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river (sends Crusaders (water referring to people)) to overtake the woman(Islam) and sweep her away with the torrent."
"17-Then the dragon (Anitchrist-UnHoly Roman Empire) was wroth with the woman(Islam) and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Righteous Jews and Protestant Christians)

This last line clearly shows that the Jews and Christians were not considered part of this woman (righteous church), but rather the remnant of her seed…

Q 2:62 "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

This "wonder" is a great sign in the heavens. The "woman" here is not the church, for a church building has never delivered any child. This "mother" has nothing to do with the church. This woman is "Israel", the twelve sons of Jacob, or tribes [John 16:21].

The same political and social order that was in existence at the end of the first earth age, prior to this age of flesh man, will be ruling over the earth at the end of our current earth age. Fix in your mind that the time period that is being spoken of here is that time when the souls of men were not in the flesh, it was in that first earth age before the events following Genesis 1:2.

Revelation 12:2 "And she being with child, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

This "child" to be delivered is the Messiah, and the woman delivering the child is the symbol of "Israel", however, in the physical sense of this earth age, we call her "Mary". It is Satan's sole purpose to destroy this child. This woman is the wife and the son of Almighty God, and God wants us to feel and understand the events occurring then. What happens to them affects Him, exactly as it would you or I in a similar case.

who is the man child?

start

Rv 12:1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

go to

Gen 37v5: And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
6: And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
7: For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
8: And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9: And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

10: And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

11: And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

we know that the sun, moon and 2 stars in Revelation 12 is Israel.

2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

the Prophecy was spoken in the days of old about Jesus


Gen 49:8: Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

9: Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

10: The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

11: Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ---'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

12: His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

Deut 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.





Rev 12v 3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

satan uses Herod in his attempt to get Jesus in vs 4

4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Mt 1v16: Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

out of Israel came Jesus from the tribe of Judah

Rev 12v5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

here comes the Lord the first time

Lk 1v26: And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27: To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28: And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29: And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30: And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31: And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32: He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Rv2v26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

here he comes the second time to rule

Rv 19v11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Jesus shall rule with a rod of Iron, all nations.
Jesus is the man child out of Israel.

simply put.

Gen 37v1: And Jacob dwelt in the land wherein his father was a stranger, in the land of Canaan.
2: These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph, being seventeen years old, was feeding the flock with his brethren; and the lad was with the sons of Bilhah, and with the sons of Zilpah, his father's wives: and Joseph brought unto his father their evil report.
3: Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours.
4: And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him.
5: And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
6: And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
7: For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

8: And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9: And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

10: And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

11: And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.


Rev 12v1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Genesis 37
sun = jacob
moon= rachel or leah
11-star= 11 brothers
1-star= Joseph


Rev 12v1
woman=Israel=church
sun=Jacob
moon =rachel or leah
12 stars= 12 tribes of Isael

woman=chruch=Israel

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Lam 1:17 Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them.

How easy it is to make mistakes when you compare apples to oranges. I am a builder and not a destroyer. This is ment to enlighten.

To state that Revelation 12 and Isaiah 66 are speaking about the one thus than the very self same thing is an error.

Revelation 12 speaks of and about the birth of the nation Israel, and Isaiah 66 is speaking about the millennial kingdom of God upon this earth.

The nation of Isreal is brought about by the efforts of man in accordance to God's will and timing. This, I might add, causes a great deal of pain, sorrow and suffering by man. You should also know by now, Israel fought many battles even before it became a nation for the right to do just that. This all took place over many years. As soon as she was chartered and recognized as a nation, she was at war. On that set date and time Israel became a nation in May of 1948 the clock of prophecy began ticking to fulfill the Davidic Covenant, God's promise to David to always have a "flesh and blood" heir upon the throne of Israel. The nation first, than it's rightful king both "not" without a great deal of pain, sorrow and suffering.

Isaiah 66 speaks once again of the millenial kingdom of God upon this earth, brought about in one day without any effort by man but by God alone, thus effortlessly. This kingdom is know as Mt Zion/Zion as Isaiah clearly states and not a nation, such as Israel. There are similarities, yet major differances. One is by the will of God alone, the other by both the will of God and man. One is speaking of a nation of people, chosen or otherwise, beleivers and non-beleivers alike the other a kingdom of God upon this earth of only those who follow the complete will of God, reguardless of nationality, race, ect. Lots of differances between these two.

Your quote "those that overcome" will just not be found not to be God's words at all. Your quote should rightly read, "him who overcomes" as in singular and not plural as you possibly misstated I pray. For to say otherwise, John/God has put a curse on those who should alter as change the wording of this prophecy and add or delete anything. The singular express that a single king will thus than rule and reign upon the throne of David over the whole house of Israel and the world as well. Durning the millenial kingdom, there will still be one king ruling over the nation Israel but many subjects, those in Christ Jesus, to assist in ruling over the entire world of nations. The rest of your errors should now be plainly seen as well.

Brother Smith

Isa 66v8: Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. children plural

this separate its from Rev 12


this has not happened yet, no not even in 1948

can zion bring forth her CHILDREN in a day.

can a nation be borne at once, yet in a day.

yes!!!

when


Matthew 24v 29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

notice there will be no sun and moon when the Lord send his angels to gather his elect.

the elect is Israel.

so if the sun and moon is removed where is the concept of days and time.

think about what you are reading above.

lets look at it again


Isa 11v11: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12: And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13: The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

14: But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

15: And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16: And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

when is going to happen? I tell you the truth of the matter it did not happen in 1948

read in the same chapter but go to a higher verse look what the Lord had Isaiah write,

6: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.


so Isaiah say Jesus will recover Isreal a SECOND time when

6: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.


so Israel can't be gathered until this happen

but first the Lord has to come,

the Lord can't come until the trumpets are blown and hs wrath is released,

the Lord can't come until the seals are opened which is the great tribulation

the Lord can't come until after the great tribulation,

the great tribulation can't start until the man of sin is revealed

the geat tribulation ends when the heavens roll back like a scroll and the sun and moon is put out.

once the sun, moon and heavens roll back like a scroll where is your concept of time.

when the day of the Lord happens it will be one day, there is not a concept of time as we(man) count time

now where is Israel now?

when a nations is borne in a day, that day is when the Lord comes. because Jesus is the tommorrow.

think about what you just read here.



before the tribulation

when the Lord gather his elect in Isaiah 11 this includes all Israel all 12 tribes and the son's of noah who have joined themselve unto Israel.

when the Lord comes many things will happen on the DAY.

because when Jesus finish taking down man's goverment, he sets up his and his kingdom for 1000 years.

Isreal goes back to there land

we have the first resurrection,

all people go back to there own land

Guy Smith

Your curse is a blessing, this is causing one and all to see, thus than know the truth of God's words.

Thank You!

May God continue to bless us all so richly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The sun and moon are not removed but blocked out from the brightness of His coming...

yes! and because of his brightness and the brightness of the people in the first resurrection what need of a sun, moon and stars. we will be in the presence of Jesus, angels and the 1st resurrected ones.

let the bible speak!

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Isa 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.


Hab 3:11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.