I've been looking closer at Ephesians.

I have some thoughts and wonderings....

Eph 2: 11



So what he's saying here is that these Gentiles who have become believers where called "Uncircumcision" ...

by the Jews?

who are called "Circumcision,"

with a note of sarcasm with the use of the phrase "so-called"

and also he says

"performed in the flesh by human hands"

which would be works...

... correct?

Then in this portion of scripture it says the the Gentiles now become one with the saints... which are the Jews who believe... because the enmity (which is the law) was put to death..



What seems kind of stupid on my part...is that the saints are the Jews that believed first..not the Christians...It's just odd how my thinking is towards our elder brother.

Then when it says "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets"

He's talking about them as the apostles right? and the prophets being every prophet up to John the Baptist correct?

So the foundation would be the Prophets from the old

and the Apostles from the new..

with Christ as the corner stone.. In Christ we turned the corner...

Ok...so what does he mean here when he says

3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 {to be specific,} that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Why does he say "sons of men" here?

We talk so much about who the "sons of God" are...

but here it referes to "sons of men"

Where all Gentiles refered to as "sons of men"?

Now because of Christ..The sons of God (which are the saints...(jewish believers)) ..

know

that the sons of men (Gentiles) have the opportunity to partake with them...the saints...

And that's Pauls job...to tell them..and this is what he's doing in Ephesians

correct?

To be more specific...Gentiles were called sons of men but now through Christ can be called sons of God..

Correct?

So here he's saying that because we are grafted in that we will be able to comprehend with all the saints (Jewish believers)



My gosh! What is it?? what is the breadth length height and depth?

This is something he is saying that the Jewish believers already know and that now we as Gentiles for being grafted in get to know too...

correct?? But l don't think l know it? How can we know something that vast? Is it just a play on words for Christ? Meaning that he is the breadth length height and depth... and when we know him we have access to this knowledge because it's him??

By the power of man as oppposed to God. The new circumcision is made without hands. Paul is asking which is greater? A human birth and a human circumcision, or a divine birth and a divine circumcision. The answer is not a foregone conclusion, since many do not hold the things of God in any particular esteem. The temporal sets it's face against the eternal, in a struggle for the faith that continues to this day.

<><

John

That doesn't mean that we're only given a certain amount of grace and when it's runs out he pulls the plug does it?

Why would it be measured?

Miki.... I wish I had time to sit and open the Word with you! I am going out of town in just a little bit and I won't be able to. Then when I get back I have my surgery and will be down for a few days.

But....I think what you said here...you hit it right on the head!




I was reminded of this verse when I read the scripture you were referring to here.....

Romans 11:
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

I have to run,
In Christ,
Valerie
Messiahiscoming

yes

A israelite(jew) is a christian.

The disciples are called christian first.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

That's right Miki.
Although the Old Testament, Isaiah, refers to the Gentiles (the Nations) coming in, the prophecies are
only understood after, in the light of, Christ.
To all intents and purposes, the Jews believed themselves 'a peculiar people'. The Chosen Ones.

Paul is hammering home the point, against strong resistance no doubt, that the wall of division has gone.

'breadth length height depth', may refer to the New Jerusalem.
The notion of Israel is as the beacon on the Mountain to which all nations flow for teaching, rule, and nourishment.

What is the measure of Christ's gift?
It is free.

Not 1 cent, 1 dollar or 1000 dollars.......free

Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--
Eph 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you;
Eph 3:3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
Eph 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 {to be specific,} that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
Eph 3:7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.[/quote]

Ok...so what does he mean here when he says

3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Go to Acts7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

how was the word of God revealed to the apostles and prophets.

Amos 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
2: You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

the apostles and prophets are Israelites.

look what else is said

Deut 4:33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?

Ps 147:19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
20: He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

so prior to Israel How did the Lord communicate with a Adam to Abraham to Isaac up until Jacob who is called Israel.

the Lord came down to this earth.



before the Lord sent Paul to the gentiles, the Gentiles had no clue about Jesus, a saviour is to come, or the commandments of God.

Here is why.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

it was unlawful for Israel to keep company with a stranger, How can you minister unto a stranger if you can't keep company with them.

so the lord had to find a way to bring the gentiles in to the fold. Paul

Paul was sent to be a preacher unto the gentiles

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

now God brings the gentiles into the family of God

go back to Ephesian 2

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

and you are part of God's nation of Priest

12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:




every person born of woman is the sons of men or son of man sometimes referred also in scripture.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

God called the male and female man, adam named the female woman
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19: And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20: And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21: And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22: And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23: And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.



yes in the understanding the the sons of God knows that all the sons of men have a chance at eternal life or Jesus.

No because you can't limit the sons of men to just gentiles or the sons of God tojust Israelites


Peter said
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

if we use your explaination what would happen to these son's of men who are not gentiles or Israelites.

lets look at the flood at Noah sons Shem, Ham Japheth

we know that Israel came out of shem,we also know that shem had many more sons
we know that Ham means many and Ham had more sons than his brothers
we know that Japheth is the father of the gentiles

read Genesis 10

1: Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2: The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3: And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4: And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5: By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

lets look at the son's of God

Luke3v
23: And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Hel

31: Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,

32: Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,

33: Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,

the term Jew starts with Judah and Jacob name is changed to Israel, so the son's of God cannot be only israelites or Jews.

when we read vs 34 on down Isaac and Abraham and those that came before are not jews or israelites

34: Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

35: Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,

36: Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

37: Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

so we see from Adam to Jacob where is the Jew or Israelite, they did not come on the seen until Judah

so what was the people before Jacob even before the flood or tower of babel. Man



correct



they are called sons of men because that is who they are, sons of men, you can say the same thing about hamites or shemites the other son's of noah or other sons of men.

Thanks ozell... But the Jews were the ones according to this portion of Ephesians who were the first "believers" called the saints... (because they believed).. I understand also that the first Christians were Jews.

So if you think about it...l guess the apostles and prophets at the time Paul was speaking were all Jewish believers...He's just inviting the Gentiles on board at this time. Explaining their heritage so to speak.

So here we have Christ... A Jew, as the corner stone..

Then the prophets..also Jews

And now the apostles..more Jewish believers..

So what happened?

In order to continue to believe they have to accept Christ.
But the majority don't..

What percentage of believing Jews at that time accepted Christ? I know we don't really know but what's your best guess? And do you think many turned away because in order to continue to believe they would have to acknowledge their own killed Yeshua?

Before Christ comes they're waiting and waiting to be delivered...

...but it's not the kind of deliverance they expected.

They still have to sit there in the midst of everything. I think l understand a little of the disappointment they felt in thinking they wouldn't have to keep enduring something..
that somehow it was going to be over.

But it wasn't...

And really...if you think about it. Like some new and baby Christians feel today that when they come to the Lord it's finally going to be all over and they won't have to endure any longer..

Deliverence has come but it's delayed...

Hope is given along with a promise.

So one has to ask themselves.. Is that enough?

For me the answer would have to be yes

Based on the fact that the life l live now is the result of who l was. Not only who l was but who we all were. No man is an island. We reap the sins of our fathers...generally speaking that is.

For instance. If we are a slave he says later in Ephesians to be a good one. And basically...even if you're being slapped in the face.

So the Gentiles...Just like the Jews...

They want it now. Even though l have to wait for outward freedom...my faith tells me l'm free now..sealed with the Spirit as a down payment.

It's awful to say but l understand how people don't believe. I think the thing that causes me to accept what's given now as a down payment is the personal reality that l don't deserve even that.

So l'm grateful.

People that don't live a really sinful life feel they should have deliverance in fullness and shouldn't have to endure like all us low dogs...

Oh l don't know...

I'm just thinking out loud.

God will Not give you a task you cant handle

all Paul is saying is get the fullness of God's word, he tell you that in the below verse
Eph 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
Eph 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God

in other words solomon wrote it another way

Prov 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Paul say it a different way

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

what is left after you received all in Jesus , heaven and earth. what is left.

Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

if you seek it will be given

and if it is given you are to have the mind of Jesus in Paul writings

1Cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Jesus said
Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jn 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Jesus made some big promises.

we just have to hold him to his word by doing what he says.

Good one Marcus!!

I don't know if that's the fullness of the answer but l love it!!

simple says:


On second thought...

then that has to be the answer to



... It can't be measured. So that's the secret the Jewish saints (believers) already knew before the Gentiles became Christians... Correct?!

in terms of money the knowledge of God is free.

but you have to put in time and effort

study
2Tm 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

search
Jn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

ozell.. Now l'm embarrassed. I can't quite take in all you have posted but the reality of a lack of understanding has hit.

I thought there were only two groups in the whole wide world. Gentiles and Jews.

I kind of thought of Jews as anyone who descended from Abraham's bloodline.

(He was the father of faith) and a believer was called a

son of God. (Actully you become a son of God when you believe) Being born in a certain blood line is no gaurentee.

Anybody who doesn't believe is the son of man?.. correct? I always thought Gentiles was just another word for it.

But reading what you wrote and comprehending with a strong grasp will take time and study.

Wish you could nutshell it a little more...

ozell says:



So what scriptures was he talking about? It has to be the Torah. There were no scriptures before that..

And by the way, l like what you said about how God communicate with men



But not the first time... Abram heard the voice of the Lord in his Spirit and responded. Also through dreams.. (Jacobs ladder)

Ok..so here's the part l have to struggle with understanding.. (Why can't they use plain names?)

Let me nutshell it up a bit before l crack the nut....

There are three groups here?

Israel which became the Jews...

Gentiles...(Which l always thought was just another word for heathen...)

And a third group?

Who is it? I will try to crack the nut.

So everybody before Judah (and after, in that line ) were descended from Seth.

If Israel came out of Shem and the Gentiles came out of Jepheth

What about Ham?

Ozell,

So everybody before the flood were called "man"

and after the flood they were divided into three groups according to their elder brother?

Israel came out of Shem

Gentiles came out of Jepheth

Ham....?

25 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will punish all those who are circumcised merely in the flesh— 26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, the sons of Ammon, Moab, and all who dwell in the desert who cut the corners of their hair, for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in heart.” Jer 9:25-26.

40 “But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, 41 so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies—if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. Lev 26:40-42.

Circumcision is intended to be an act of obedience coming from faith, for the Jewish people specifically. In is comparable to the initiatory ritual of water baptism. Circumcision is not considered to be a "work of the flesh" just because it is done with human hands to human flesh. Most acts of righteousness, including Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, are accomplished through human bodies of flesh and blood. What is meant by "works of the flesh" is referring to works done without faith in God as our righteousness. These are works done out of self-righteousness. God commanded Abraham's descendants to circumcise their baby boys. If they have genuine faith in their God, they will obey him and do it. It is the same as you or I obeying the command to "love your neighbor as yourself." You can do that out of your own human nature (a work of the flesh) or out of faith in God through the power of the Spirit of God.

When Paul wrote Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," {which is} performed in the flesh by human hands--, he was addressing the fact that the unbelieving Jews of that time would refer to all Gentiles as "the uncircumcised." This also carried the implication that no Gentile was in a covenant relationship with God in a way like the Jews were through Abraham and Moses. Paul was pointing out that now, through the cross, all Gentiles with faith in the gospel are to conciously "remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off (Gentiles) have been brought near by the blood of Christ. " Eph 2:12-13.

"You who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ" is also quite possibly in reference to Isaiah 57:18-19...

18 I have seen his ways (backsliden and in sin), but I will heal him (draw their hearts to repentance);
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and his mourners,
19 creating the fruit of the lips.
Peace, peace, to the far and to the near,” says the Lord,
“and I will heal him."

In reference to the Jews who were under the judgment of exile as "far" and those in the land as "near," Paul was figuaratively equating Jews, who were born under the judgment of exile set to extend until the millenial kingdom, with Gentile sinners who would come to God, when the Messiah would come to save Israel at the end of the age. Both groups would be saved by Jesus himself in the end of the age, according to Isaiah and Paul here in Eph 2. Paul is saying that this reality that was prophecied is now upon us in one sense already through the new phenomenon called the church in these "last days." Acts 2:17 calls this new "church age" the "last days." The death of Jesus began the "last days."

Also, Paul quotes the words of Micah 5:5 when he describes the new unity between Jews and Gentiles with genuine faith in the Messiah. "He shall be their peace."Eph 2:14-15, "For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,"

Paul had insight that this unity extended beyond simple political peace as described by Isaiah 57:19, but it was peace that, through the Holy Spirit imparted to us through faith in Messiah, make Jews and Gentiles actually joined together as "one" in the spiritual "body of Messiah" called the church.

"4 And he shall stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord,
in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.
And they shall dwell secure, for now he shall be great
to the ends of the earth. (among the gentiles)
5 And he shall be their peace. (Jews and gentiles)" Micah 5:4-5.



"The sons of men" and "men" just means "humans" generically. It is never meant to be specifically Gentiles, Shemites, Hamites, or Japhetites.

I don't know Michaela.
Length, breadth, height and depth is the language of construction.

To the OT Saints that meant Solomon's Temple.
Or perhaps Ezekiel's Temple.

To us it means the New Jerusalem.
Or, in a figure, Jesus, who is the Temple.

I don't know if the OT Saints viewed Solomon's Temple as a simulation of a Heavenly Temple.

Son of Man means anyone descended from Adam, the first man.
It means merely human.

Jesus called himself Son of Man, and in Luke his descent goes back to Adam.

I think you are tying yourself in knots a bit Miki.

The Gentiles, the Nations, came from all of Noah's sons.

Abraham is the great great great great great great great great Grandson of Shem.

So Shem had 5 sons, one of whom, Arphaxad, was the great (x7) Grandfather of Abraham.

--------------


Sons of God is a bit trickier.

Essentially we become Sons of God through Christ.
No longer servants as per the Old Covenant, but Sons and Heirs through Christ.

if Jesus is the Son of God, and he is our Brother, then we are Sons of God too.

Not so Marcus...read this carefully. It's scripture of the origin of two of the groups. (excluding Ham)

These were the sons of God..

The line through which Jesus came. Israel's line of descent.

Now Gentiles get to become sons also through Christ. Grafted in...

You know what that means don't you...

It means that when the Sons of God (the line of seth) looked on the daughters of men that they weren't space alien angels.

The only thing is...Voice still never told me why some of the angels where called sons of God also ..
except they were created beings...?

Gen 10:32 ¶ These [are] the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

Goyim (=Gentiles/Nations) is the same word as used in Gen 10:5 Miki.

Gentiles and Nations mean the same thing.

The Nations came out of the sons of Noah.

good teaching

Miki, did this speak to you at all?

It does but I don't have time now eliyahu, l have to get off...but l was just trying to follow the specifics of what ozell was saying because he spells it out with scripture. Not that you aren't using scripture...but l was just trying to understand something l've never been clear on. will talk later.

great.
be blessed

Free as in freely given. Free as in no monatary purchase required. But the gift of God will cost us everything. Only the sacrifice of our very selves will be the response to One who has given all for us. This is our reasonable service. If we would walk with Christ, we would lay down our lives in order to take His and walk as He walked. Then we would be His disciples. Whoever does not forsake all he has...and even his own life...is not worthy of Him.

Shalom
<><

John

eliyahu..I read and comprehended what you wrote.. I understand it and l'm in agreement with it.

ozell is gone but l'm still thinking about the portion of scripture he posted..

Why were the generations broken down like that if we were suppose to lump them all together as nations. Why not just say, like simple did, that;

?



Now at the end it says Adam, which was the son of God. We know that up to Jacob who became Israel that they all believed by faith...Jacob being the last hard case that wrestled with God...

But after the name change the line mentioned above...did they wrestle to? were they instant believers? where they all obedient? This was Jesus line..

See how they jump from Adam to Seth...Abel didn't have descendants...

What about Cain?

Then in this portion it speaks of the rest;



But here's a question... After Jacob's name change to Israel...the line that followed him weren't necessarily believers... They had to go through a process like Jacob did... Some were, some weren't. But before him Abraham Issac and Jacob were the main deal..all believing. Jacob was the hinge pin.

His sons were divided.

--------------------------------------------

Why would it talk about the descendants of Japheth...and define them (as Gentile nations)

And the descendants of Shem...and define the root of origin in Seth as believers (that jump skipped Cain) called sons of God.

Why is Ham left out here? (I'll research it a little...)


After the flood .. whatever Cain's curse.. was gone.. correct?

Unless it came through the wives of the three sons. Is that possible?

Do curses and blessings pass through women?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham,_son_of_Noah

If the blacks were part of the lineage of Ham..that doesn't mean the curse is still alive because doesn't the Bible say that the sins of the father are served on the third and fourth generation...

Then it would be done... correct? So even if the Blacks are descendants the curse wouldn't still remain except by association.. For instance. I don't have to drink just because my father was an alcoholic...I have a propensity to drink but am not compelled. A curse would be different. The next three or four generations would be drinkers for sure...We might say they have a choice..but they don't take it. They just do what they do..A curse.

Or... do we say that the curse is only broken in Christ? Now l know we are all under the law of sin and death...but l'm talking about a specific curse here.. Ham's line..Is it absolved after the fourth generation?

I've gotten off track..but l guess it has to do with who Paul is preaching to and who has the right to hear and come...because they can't without the drawing power of God.

Who are the Gentiles? That's the subject... Some say everybody that doesn't believe..and the Jews who don't believe are counted with the Gentiles...

But is there another group that are existing apart from (1) Jewish believers 2) Jewish non believers and (3)Gentiles

And actually you could say that Gentiles and Jewish non believers are the same catagory..

Now those two groups (Jewish non believers and Gentiles are offered through Christ to be one body with the Saints..the choosen..the believers...the apostles and prophets.. the believing Jew.

Is there another group?

I don't think this is a way out question because what ozell says about Noahs 3 son's begs the question. Who are Gentiles really? The descendent of Jepheth. It's there in black and white.

Because Moses wrote Genesis in its context like that to the children of Israel. Everyhting was written to their perspective. It was a perspective centered on the covenant with Abraham. The world is divided up between Jew and Gentile.

The word Gentile is also translated as nation, even the Jewish nation at times. Context defines the meaning. The theme of the "goyim" or nations is one that progressively developes in Genesis. The nations are described as having their beginnings in rebellion against God in the tower of Babel incident. They wanted to have autonomy independant from God. Then some of them had developed into the degenerated Canaanites that Lot was mixed up with. They enslaved the children of Israel. They worship false gods. The nations are progressivley shown to be walking in spiritual darkness. They are what the children of Israel would have been a part of had not God called Abraham out from among them. The nations are people that God would use to punish Israel. The nations are unclean by the Jewish law. These are reasons why the word goyim is used in the geneology there. The Canaanites are descendants of Ham's cursed son. Ham's curse was upon himself and his descendants. The history between the Canaanites and the children of Israel documents the curse's outworking. Many of the Canaanites did end up becoming subservient to the children of Israel also in fulfillment of the curse and in obedience to the Torah.

Correct.

I think I am following you here.

What do you mean by "Ham is left out?"

Cain's curse died with Cain himself. His lineage was not cursed, only he was personally. His descendants that the Bible mentions were shown to be getting progressively more and more sinful in the course of time.

No Ham Lineage... accept this:

was a son of Noah and the father of Cush, Mizraim, Phut, and Canaan.

Four generations...

Was the above consecutive

and did the curse end after the fourth generation? Canaan?

With a propensity only remaining towards unbelief

but the ability to turn available because 4 generations had passed?

When the 5th generation doesn't receive the available opportunity it begins all over again? (The sins of the fathers are served on the third and fourth generation?)

I came out of a line of unbelievers..for many generations behind me. I'm married to an unbeliever. I have one son who believes and is in Christian college.. and one son who is living in the world...My husbands side are non believers though have a catholic streak in them.

So..Is the curse of unbelief broken through my acceptence of Christ and the new line created through my eldest son and his believing, soon to be wife? The curse of unbelief from both my husband's side of the family and my family history

is broken through my eldest son? Actually in part through me because l believed first..But completed as my son marries and has children...

These are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Sons were born to them after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples spread in their lands, each with his own language, by their clans, in their nations.

6 The sons of Ham: Cush, Egypt, Put, and Canaan. 7 The sons of Cush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabteca. The sons of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan. 8 Cush fathered Nimrod; he was the first on earth to be a mighty man. [1] 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord. Therefore it is said, “Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10 The beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went into Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth-Ir, Calah, and 12 Resen between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city. 13 Egypt fathered Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, 14 Pathrusim, Casluhim (from whom [2] the Philistines came), and Caphtorim.

15 Canaan fathered Sidon his firstborn and Heth, 16 and the Jebusites, the Amorites, the Girgashites, 17 the Hivites, the Arkites, the Sinites, 18 the Arvadites, the Zemarites, and the Hamathites. Afterward the clans of the Canaanites dispersed. 19 And the territory of the Canaanites extended from Sidon in the direction of Gerar as far as Gaza, and in the direction of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. 20 These are the sons of Ham, by their clans, their languages, their lands, and their nations.

It is not clear if these four are in consecutive order. I highly doubt that they are. The point of the geneology is not to give us a complete, chronological account. The point was to show the children of Israel where all the nations that were their neighbors came from. It is also to show that their God, Yahweh, was the one who made the nations. God had put them where they were and God gave them everything that they have. They should trust that God would give them what he had promised to Abraham since God even gave the gentiles all those lands, whithou them having a covenant with him.

The concept of a curse being passed down in very doubtful. It is a curse upon :those that hate" God. But God's mercy is far more abounding. “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, [1] forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. Gal 3:13-14.

You are free from any curse, because of your faith. Your faith will bring blessing on your children and your husband. "14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. " 1 Cor 7:14. Any sort of curse that is on an unbeliever is the curse of not having Jesus in their life. Whatever extent of sin they embrace will determine what sort of curses they bring upon themselves. But no child is cursed because of their parent's sin.

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:20.

I don't think I'm understanding the question.

are you saying why wait so late to bring in the Gentiles?




1Pt 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

compared to the first man until the coming of the Lord



Israel had been in captivity for along time.. theyt had been in bondage to other nations and still are.

Lk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

the book tells us that they of understanding, understood the prophecies of Isaiah.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.




hope along with the other fruits of the spirit, we have to put all Paul's writing into perspective

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;



you are most correct



this is why Paul is the apostle to the gentiles at that time. The gentiles are looking for God they did not know who God is.
so they created them God's. until Paul came and showed them there error


Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

remember

the Lord said

Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Peter said
2Pt 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

what did God say in Genesis 10 who the gentiles are

Gen10v
1: Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

the Lord starts with Japheth

2: The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3: And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4: And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5: By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

if we took your definition we will read this as these were the Isles of the nation............................in there nation

don't make sense


now lets see what the Lord say about the other son's
6: And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
20: These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.

notice the word gentile not mention in Ham's lineage but we see the word nation

21: Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.
22: The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.
31: These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.
again the word gentiles is missing from shem faimly, yet we see the word nation


32: These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

all we see the word gentile missing when we address the whole family of noah

gentile is the family of Japheth who Paul preached and taught. and the counties Paul taught where European nations.

Patience, the Lord will show you all things , Paitence

Keep this verse in mind from Peter as you learn

2Pt 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


Abraham first born is Ishmael but he is the the son of the promise, Abrham had other son's after Sarah death
yet they were given gift and sent away from the promise son Isaac.


Jesus referred himself as the son of man, he is God and he believed in God the Father
so we have to eliminate that reason.

Mt 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Mt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Mt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

gentiles are the family of Japheth Genesis 10

keep in mind God created adam and eve PERFECT. yet they sinned.

solomon sinned, the son of David who was raised in a God fearing house hold.
solomon had over 700 wives and built pagan temple to them.

its our own belief that will saved us

listen to this

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.