Here is another article full of rubbish, heresy, and doctrines of devils, that was intended to persuade people to believe Adventists are not really Christians:

http://www.caic.org.au/biblebase/sda/sda-chr.htm

It was pasted here:
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...st&p=197674

I would have responded there, but it was starting to get off topic.

Item 1.



Here's a complete article about this topic:
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=20316

I will just summarize here:

The Bible doesn't teach that the work of atonement was complete at the cross. It's merely a superstition that to deny this idea is to deny Christ. Obviously in God's mind, this work was complete at the foundation of the earth:

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Otherwise, no one could be saved before the cross. But Christ was given full credit for His work of atonement before it was completed. And we know that God calls that which is not as though they where:

Rev. 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

When Jesus said "it is finished", what did He mean?

"Finished" in Greek = "teleo¯"

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished (teleo¯), that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth.
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished (teleo¯): and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

So what was finished? All the prophecies which needed to be fulfilled in Christ's earthly life and ministry. They all had to be fulfilled.

Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Likewise:

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished (teleo¯)!

Luke 18:31 Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished (teleo¯).

22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished (teleo¯) in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Acts 13:29 And when they had fulfilled (teleo¯) all that was written of him, they took [him] down from the tree, and laid [him] in a sepulchre.

A similar phrase is used in two other places in Revelation.
In Rev. 16:17 "it is done" after the seven last plagues.
In Rev. 21:6 "it is done" again after God makes a new heaven and new earth and before the invitation to take the water of life freely.

Here's every single verse in the New Testament that deals with the term "atonement"


This word is found in these 4 verses: Rom. 5:11; 11:15; 2Co. 5:18, 19;

But here's another form of the word. I guess it's the verb tense:This word is found in these 5 verses: Rom. 5:10; 1Co. 7:11; 2Co. 5:18, 19, 20;

That's 10 usages of these two words in a total of 7 verses. Which of these verses say the atonement was completed at the cross?

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled (katallasso¯) to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled (katallasso¯), we shall be saved by his life.
5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement (katallage¯).

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling (katallage¯) of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

1 Cor. 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled (katallasso¯)
to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.

2 Cor. 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled (katallasso¯)
us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (katallage¯);
5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling (katallasso¯)
the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (katallage¯).
5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled (katallasso¯) to God.

Adventists to not commit heresy by saying the work of atonement is still in progress. This is just a superstition. If it where not still in progress, then no one could be atoned for and the lost would stay lost forever. The work of atonement will be in progress as long as Jesus mediates for us as High Priest in the Sanctuary in Heaven.



Item 2.



The same who call this false prophecy also criticize God Himself for giving the Adventists a bitter-sweet experience.

Rev. 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

This prophecy in Revelation was fulfilled in the Adventist movement. The little book is the formerly sealed visions of Daniel:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The same also condemn the 12 disciples as false prophets. No matter how often Jesus told them He was about to be crucified, they could not hear it. This understanding was withheld from them. They couldn't give up the idea that Jesus was going to deliver Israel from the Romans.

Luke 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel

24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

That also was a bitter-sweet experience. Their prospect to reign with Christ was glorious and sweet. Their hopes where bitterly crushed when He was crucified.

Likewise the Adventists believed Christ would come in 1844 and take them home to glory. Their hopes where crushed. The rest of the world mocked, but God blessed them by giving them sound doctrine, and gave the nominal churches, who despised the Adventists, over to strong delusions and doctrines of devils. Therefore the presence of demons is felt in their congregations.

But look. God says:

Rev. 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

This message goes to every nation, kindred, tongue and people:

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev. 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Item 3.



I suppose this person teaches the common error that every person who dies in their sins spends eternity in hell and all suffer the same torment. Mathematically that doesn't make sense:

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Obviously some suffer more than others. Satan would suffer more than all. So critics isolate this line:



It makes perfect sense to me that everyone suffers for their own sins. That is they bear their own sins for they refused to accept that Christ bore their punishment.

In Daniel 6 we see Daniel gets thrown into the Den of Lions, but he is not devoured. Similarly Christ is put to death, but death can't keep him. Daniels accusers are then thrown to the Lions and they are consumed. Does it not make sense that Satan is then similarly consumed?

"devil" = "accuser"
"satan" = "adversary"

This is what these terms literally mean.

The Bible doesn't say that Christ bears the punishment of sin until He is completely consumed by it. It's ok to say that He eventually transfers that guilt to Satan.

What else do you do with all that sin? Does it just disappear? Sin is a serious thing, contrary to what modern theologians will condition you to believe.

But the final work of atonement is foreshadowed in the Day of Atonement service which happened at the end of the year, (Lev. 16). Can you find a better explanation for this sanctuary service? Are they not all shadows?

I already spent time gathering data to explain this. I can't keep repeating myself. You can read what I wrote here:
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=19524

The item in question is found where it says:

Issue 10. Satan "Joint Sin-Bearer" with Christ


Item 4.


What a raving lunatic! Again, we see Biblical illiteracy at it's finest.

What physical nature was Christ born with? Was it not the "likeness of sinful flesh"?

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In fact it says that it's the Antichrist that denies that Christ was born with the same flesh we have:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So blame the Adventists for not wanting to preach the doctrines of Antichrist? The "Holy Flesh" doctrine is what identifies Antichrist.

Have you heard of the "Immaculate Conception"? That's the Catholic teaching that Mary never sinned, therefore Jesus was born without "Original Sin", unlike all the rest of us. The Bible doesn't teach that children are born with sin. Sin is a choice people make.

Babies are not born with sin, just a sinful physical nature. In other words, our physical bodies are different now than if they where born in Eden, before sin, because of the curse of sin. We don't live for eternity or even for 900 years, but our bodies are programmed to grow old and die. That's the kind of body Jesus was born with. The same as ours.



Item 5.



No, Paul was not teaching that man has an immortal soul. The term "immortal soul" is not found anywhere in the Bible, but comes 100% from Paganism. The t Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Buddha, Confucius, Merlin, and all Pagan philosophers taught that man has an immortal soul. This is because the Devil said: "Ye shall not surely die", (Gen. 3:4).

Yes, when God's elect die in faith, they go to be with the Lord at the resurrection which, to them, happens immediately. There is no perception of time between death and resurrection. This is what the Bible teaches:

Acts 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens...

1 Kings 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

Would you revile everything the Bible teaches about death and resurrection?

This has been the understanding of God's people since the beginning. Job, who lived long before Moses said:

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

What change?

1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Death and resurrection is the teaching of Christianity, and it is unique to Christianity. The "immortal soul" doctrine belongs to Paganism, therefore leave it to Paganism. No form of Paganism, as far as I know, teaches death and resurrection.

Would you prefer the teaching of spiritualists that There is No Death and There are No Dead ?

People do not go to some spirit world. Those who think they are contacting the dead are always contacting demons.

This is a huge topic and, again, it would need it's own thread.



Item 6.



This quote:

is talking about circumcision.

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

Nothing was said about the Sabbath because they where already keeping it and they where already reading Moses:

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

There was no need to re-hash all the things taught in the books of Moses, for they had been and would always be, reading them every Sabbath.

Fornication, idolatry, blood, and things strangled where the issues these gentiles dealt with and would have to overcome. There's nothing mentioned about
-- the Sun God, or
-- burning their children for Molek, or
-- cross dressing, or
-- homosexuality, or
-- sex with animals, or
-- pedophilia, or
-- witchcraft, or
-- necromancy, or
-- astrology, anything else.

This is because these where not issues they where dealing with, and these are all covered in Moses, whom they where already reading every Sabbath.

No one has ever been troubled by the Sabbath in the Bible. If so, you would find some case of this:

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

The Gentiles loved the Sabbath, because that's the time when they heard the Word of God. It was something they looked forward to every week. It also guaranteed them a day off from their labors.

The disciples where focused on the Atonement of Christ for the remission of sins. Moses was already being read to them in synagogues in every City, every Sabbath, so why fill up the whole New Testament rehashing Moses? It wouldn't make sense to do that, though much of Moses is pointed out in many places showing they where familiar with the books of Moses.



This whole chapter is dealing only with circumcision. The fact that the Sabbath issue never comes up, shows the gentile believers had no problem keeping the Sabbath, and where surely willing to claim these blessings:

Isaiah 56:2 Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

56:6 Also the sons of the stranger ( - gentiles - ), that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

What covenant?

Hebrews 8:8 ...the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

God's covenant of grace is where He writes His law on your heart so you have grace to obey it as if by instinct. For instance, you don't think it's a yoke of bondage to keep from committing adultery, you would actually the thought of doing so.

If you don't have God's law in your heart, you don't have the New Covenant.

There is:

Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.

4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Laboring to enter into that rest is gathering twice as much mana on the 6th day. The Sabbath is a symbol of the every day and forever spiritual rest and freedom from sin we find in Christ. The symbol must be honored even as the symbol of Communion and Baptism.

This Sabbath is never called a "yoke of bondage", neither is circumcision ever called a "blessing". This is false doctrine. The Sabbath is only called a blessing and a gift for mankind, just as marriage was a gift, given before sin, in the Garden of Eden:

Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:
58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

Jer. 17:24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
17:25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

These blessings are still in effect, and it's only a sin to withhold them from the people.

Matt. 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Item 6.


We'll go over these verses:

Lev. 23:32 It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

That's the Day of Atonement. It happened one day per year. This is another of many examples of Biblical illiteracy among the critics of Ellen White.

Why can't they find Bible scholars to criticize Ellen White? Because Ellen White was a great Bible scholar herself, and Bible scholars are wise enough not to attack her.

Sunset to sunset? That's how God's people have always kept the Sabbath. Adventists do it the same way.

Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
....
23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Sabbath rest has always began at sunset.

Next:

Jeremiah 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring [it] in by the gates of Jerusalem;
17:22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

It looks like Jeremiah dealt with people hauling furniture or goods or doing some other labor they didn't need to do on the Sabbath. Jesus rebukes a man for the same thing:

John 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry [thy] bed.

5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jesus says it's a sin to carry your bed on the Sabbath if you don't need to be carrying it.

I don't understand this authors claim. Adventist spend the whole day on the Sabbath worshiping God like God says to do. They don't carry burdens through the gates of their cities.

Next:

Exo. 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

We don't kindle fires anymore. We strike a match or flip a switch or something. Kindling a fire is where you take kindling which is a fine shredded mass of dry wood and smack flint rocks together to shoot sparks into the kindling until you get a fire. This could take 20 minutes to an hour. There was no excuse for them to do this. They where supposed to keep their fires going or light their fires with an oil lamp, like a pilot light.

God's people have been honoring their Creator by keeping the Sabbath since man was created from the dirt. It's really not so tedious. The only thing that's sad is when your friends and family are too carnal to understand.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.

Matt. 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matt. 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

People are too absorbed in carnal things to heed Christ's invitation:

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mark 6:31 And he said unto them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place, and rest a while...

Psalms 23:2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

The Sabbath is too spiritual for the carnal mind:

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

These verses are deliberately taken out of context. They have nothing to do with the Sabbath. I have explained these verses here:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=19671



Item 7.


Here we see the greatest abomination of all, that God's holy law, the Ten commandments where done away with. This is at the root of all doctrines of devils and is at the heart of all heresy, for God's law is the foundation of His throne and government. Those who are seduced into believing that they are allowed to tread upon God's law do commit the unpardonable sin:

Matt. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Because "..sin is the transgression of the law.", (1 Jonn 3:4), you can't be reproved of sin, if you reject God's law. Likewise:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So if you say it's ok to break God's law, you say it's ok to sin, therefore you willfully continue in sin and you can't repent.

You might say all you need to do is say one prayer and your saved. That's not what the Bible says, but:

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You can't call upon the name of the Lord if you don't know who the Lord is:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And:

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

How can God hear your prayers if your prayer is an abomination?

Prov. 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination.

But this is dealt with more fully in this thread:
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=20402



Conclusion

We must remember that Jesus was "reckoned among the transgressors", (Luke 22:37). If God where to raise up a worldwide movement to take the last message to the whole world, it wouldn't be a surprise they where also counted among the cults by those who have envy. But remember also, the neutral parties justified Jesus:

Matt. 23:4 Then said Pilate to the chief priests and [to] the people, I find no fault in this man.

How do the neutral parties regard the Adventist church?

Hillary Clinton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIrugadxBpE
George W. Bush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOjTLNDrkOc

I don't see world leaders saying anything about Mormons and JW...

They only honor the movement, as Pilate honored Christ, and as governors honored Paul.

Matt. 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

Christianity was seen as a cult only by it's religious rivals, for the first few hundred years of it's existence:

Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
5:35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
5:36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
5:37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

So we see the cult of Theudas and the cult of Judas of Galilee, these 2 and then Christianity.
We see also 2 thieves and then Christ all crucified together.
I commonly hear JW, LDS, and SDA.
And I wonder how does my church fit in with these others? But I understand how it works.

Mark 15:9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
15:10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
15:11 But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.

Today they reject the doctrines of Christ for the traditions of men.

-- The resurrection for the immortal soul.
-- The second coming for the secret rapture.
-- The Pope as Christ's representative on earth for the Holy Spirit.
-- An alliance with Rome instead of joining with ever victorious Joshua and the tribes of Israel.
-- The day hallowed in honor of the Sun God instead of they day the Creator rested on.
-- Holy flesh doctrine instead of Christ condemning sin in the flesh.
-- Falling down and babbling instead of "Let all things be done decently and in order.", (1 Cor. 14:40).

And so on.

Even today they desire a murderer rather than their Savior. And how do we respond?

Ez. 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Lev. 23:29 For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

The SDA are a Christian denomination, like any other. I do think there are great errors however. No denomination has the monopoly on truth. You can't say...I'm a such-and such and I'm closer to God than you all! Even calling yourself a 7th day and such reveals the desire to hold a doctrine as a means of identification. In truth, we can only hold onto Christ. We should not divide the Body over days, feasts, traditions...etc. Holding the 7th day (saturday) as a day of rest is not salvific....otherwise Jesus' minstry is in vain.

But the believers themselves I don't judge.


Shalom

John

Aaaaaagreed.

The Lord has me visit different churches, and if they believe in Jesus, then all I see above the door is not the name of the church but the blood of the Lamb.

To worship on the Sabbath, I feel is a freewill offering.
Me and some friends keep the Lord's feast days as a freewill offering.

I am not going to say they are or are not christian, because like all denominations there are believers within it that at this time only have partial truth and partial lies and who all need to come into full truth.

The main problems however with sda are two fold

1) is that they believe the sabbath is the seal of God and is required, they say it is not salvational but then they run around in circles about it comming back around to it being required and they do not believe the scriptures on this point.

2) and I believe a very BIG problem is that they are all taught to be the " weak brethern", they are not taught faith but are taught FEAR that then leads to fleshly strivings to protect and save ones flesh from meats and milks and etc etc etc. They do not teach anyone to believe the highest call of the bible which is FAITH in all these things and because of this they turn all their people into the weaker brethern and instill them with fear and this causes them all to get their eyes OFF of the Kingdom of God and onto the elements of this world because the kingdom of God is not in meats and drinks and sabbath days.

People to not realize that when they begin to look at things like meats and drinks and vitamins and organics and whatever else, it has no faith in it and it truly keeps their eyes on worldly things.

Hippies, the lot of you! After all the time I've taken to carefully research these things and all you do is shovel your horse manure at me and pile on more insult to my injury?

You probably didn't even read anything.



I see that you don't have any understanding of the Bible or history. Before Christianity, there where the Pharisees and Sadducees. Even when Christianity was established, there where those who couldn't let go of circumcision, and then those who agreed that circumcision was no longer necessary. There where different sects.

Gal. 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

But then apostasy arose, as all the Apostles faithfully warned would happen. Eventually God's faithful people had to flee and hide in the wilderness, (Rev. 12:6), as the Papacy held the civilized world under her tyranny of darkness and superstition, and would not suffer true Christianity to flourish. This time is known as the Dark Ages.

Eventually those faithful Christians where slaughtered to where they no longer could preach the Gospel even in secret. Their numbers became too thin. Then God raised up reformers, like John Wycliffe and John Huss, mighty men of God.

Through the reformation, God fearing Christians began to come out of Babylon, and they where branded as Lollards and Hussites, which names they adopted. Then the Lutherans finally established their own church having secured protection from princes and kings.

Some Lutherans where burdened that infant Baptism could not be supported by the Scriptures, nor could sprinkling, but the only Baptism God recognizes is being immersed under water when you're old enough to understand the rite:

Matt. 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

These became known as Anabaptists, from which arose the Baptists, among others like the Mennonites and Amish. In the 1600s the 7th Day Baptists where formed.

Presbeterians where formed when some said church organization was important.

Methodists arose out of a powerful revival of faith. The term "Methodist" was used in scorn, for they where methodical about their faith and practice, when much of Protestantism was starting to get worldly and careless.

I believe the Seventh Day Adventist movement was a true reformation and adopts all the true reforms that came before it.

The early reformers identified themselves by certain denominations and where burned at the stake and tortured and imprisoned for their defiance against Rome. Because of their blood, we now have religious freedom.

But you --- on their graves and call them apostates.

Ignorant hippies!



Who is dividing the body of Christ? Those who do what God says and meet on the day where Christ and His disciples are preaching in the synagogues, or those cowards who whore after Babylon and her "Invincible Sun-God" to separate themselves from the Jews and avoid persecution? Shameful compromise!

I'm sure God can wink at lots of ignorance, but the fact remains that the "Venerable Day of the Sun" was established by wicked men who didn't fear the Lord and don't have any respect for the word of God, and God has never and never will bless the first day of the week. And if you say all days are blessed, then this blessing exists only in your own imagination and there's not a single verse from the Bible that supports such an idea.

I wish you guys had an appreciation of history. You smoke your joints and with a pinched, squealing voice you say "All we need is Christ, man.", and the rest say "Amen to that", and you sit back and let Satan keep you under his complete control:

Matt. 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

But who's causing trouble?

1 Kings 18:17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, [Art] thou he that troubleth Israel?
18:18 And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed Baalim.

Was Elijah causing divisions, or was it the apostasy which Ahab allowed to take over? Should God just allow everyone to be consumed by such apostasy? Would you put all the prophets to shame, who faithfully rebuked such error?

Romans 11:4 I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why couldn't Jesus just join with the Pharisees and get along with everybody? If He would have taken your advice and done that, He would have shared their sin and then we would all be lost. He would not have been a sinless sacrifice:

Matt. 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Would you say they are the body of Christ who insist on teaching as doctrine the commandments of men?

It is man's apostasy which causes divisions. Nevertheless, our Lord brings reformation, so He takes the blame on Himself:

Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

You have to honor your parents, but if what they tell you is in conflict with what Christ is telling you, then you have to choose. If the Lord calls you to follow Him, you'll follow Him to synagogue on the Sabbath, not on Sunday. This might cause a problem with your family and friends. It did for me.

Did the Apostles keep Sunday?



The Sabbath was established in the Garden of Eden before sin. They didn't make offerings back then.

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Do you consider honoring your mother and father a free will offering? If you keep yourself from idols is that an offering?

There's nothing in the Ten Commandments about offerings or sacrifices. Such things are not necessary in a perfect world, but Ten Commandments are not violated in Heaven.

Offerings in the old testament fed the priesthood and made atonement. The only sacrifice that makes atonement today is the sacrifice of Christ, but offerings are money which supports the gospel.

But tithes and offerings are not freewill, but required, or it's stealing:

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
3:9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation.

If your items cost $9 and you pay a $10 bill, you expect your change. If the cashier keeps your change and has you escorted out of the store, wouldn't you think that's odd? So God gives you more than you need and you are expected to return His change, which is 10%.



If you eat healthy, that actually makes you strong, not weak. And this verse has nothing to do with a vegetarian diet. All mankind was vegetarian, (Gen. 1:29), until after the flood, (Gen 9:3). Daniel and his mates where vegetarian, (Daniel 1:12), and Ezekiel for awhile, (Ez. 4:9), so was John the Baptist, (Matt. 3:4), and probably others. But I suppose you'd say they where weak in faith too.

But here's the verse in question:

Romans 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

He's not condemning a vegetarian diet. In fact he says he would be vegetarian himself if will keep his brethren from stumbling:

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.

14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Romans 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

1 Cor. 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

There's something that takes faith. Eating anything and everything isn't faith, it's lack of discretion.

You think faith allows you to eat anything? The disciples dealt with current issues like eating blood and things strangled and things sacrificed to idols. Those are 3 things which must not be eaten, (Acts 15:20, 29; 21:25).

What is he talking about? If you go to 1 Cor 8 and 10, it becomes clear.

1 Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.

8:7 Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

Why do the weak eat only herbs? Because herbs can't be sacrificed to idols.

Temples of idols where like shopping centers. Their god's didn't require much respect. Some disciples forgot there where idols there, but they where like just decoration. The disciples who came out of idolatry where nervous there, not wanting to relapse. So it was an issue for them.

When I'm in 3rd world countries I don't go to stores with idols if I can help it, but if I only notice the idol when I'm checking out, it's too late. I don't say anything, but I get my stuff and make a note not to go there again. I believe the items where not really sacrificed to that idol, so I don't throw them away. When they sacrifice flowers and incense and food items, they set them before the idols.

But Paul dealt with rumors that stuff in the markets had been sacrificed to idols.

1 Cor. 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
10:20 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, [that] eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that showed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

When it says whatsoever it's in the context of idolatry, and doesn't mean you can eat anything. What if it's blood or things strangled or if it's sacrificed to idols?

Encouraging people to eat healthy is not encouraging people to be weak in faith, nor does teaching people to just eat anything make them strong in faith. If you allow yourself to eat anything, you're really a slob and you might get so fat, the Lord can't use you for anything, but you'll just disgust people.

In Moses' law, the Lord tells you what to eat and what not to eat. The Apostles didn't spend much time on this since the Gentiles where reading Moses every single Sabbath in ever single city:

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Why go over all that in the gospel? They had Moses and anything they didn't know, they would learn eventually.

The big focus at that time was the Atonement of Christ, not their lack of knowledge of Moses. There where issues with eating blood and fornication and such.

There was an issue with drinking too much:

Eph. 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

1 Tim. 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine....

Titus 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
2:5 ....that the word of God be not blasphemed.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Yet on this forum, in a sticky, they say you are in a cult if you abstain from alcohol! Wow!

There really wasn't an issue with overeating because those people where too poor to afford to overeat. Food was too expensive and the disciples of Christ where too poor.

But Jesus rebukes people for eating Camel:

Matt. 23:24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Jesus destroys a herd of swine:

Matt. 8:32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

Jesus did not teach His apostles to eat unclean things:

Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Those who don't eat the unclean will not be tempted to start eating them anymore than a non-smoker is tempted to start smoking.

What reason do you have for slandering people who eat only clean things and don't eat unclean things?

Lev. 11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.
65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts;
65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;
65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These [are] a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

I would rather play it safe.

Where it says: "..every creature of God [is] good..", (1 Tim. 4:4), people assume every creature is a creature of God, for that would fit with their traditions, but creatures of God are those creatures which can be sacrificed on the Lord's alter:

Gen. 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

But this topic would need it's own thread.

I'm amazed and nauseated when I think that you defend your rights to eat the scavengers of the earth which are full of diseases. But I don't trouble people about it. Discerning between the clean and unclean is not in the Ten Commandments. But you're not going to get me to eat that stuff. I eat what I see the prophets eating, and you never see any of them eating unclean things.

Christians are doing it His way, Walking in His truth and are Living His Life.

No one else no matter what they say is a Christian.


Matthew 11
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Do the SDA recognize the authority of the Apostles? Paul met with the elders at Jerusalem to discuss these things. It was decided that Gentile disciples did not have to follow the dietary laws (save to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols). After all, if the gospel is to be preached in the whole world, then local food consumption was inevitable. Can a man be converted through his diet? What confusion!

<><

John

rush

God bless you in all grace and truth.

it is apparant that you are already offended and have gone to calling names to brethern so at this point it is of no good profit to continue this conversation as nothing can be gained from anyside from where you have taken this now.

Keep in mind though brother/or sister- that love of the brethern and the fruit of the Spirit is more important then any day or any meat so it is better for us to do all things, and speak all things from the fruit of the Spirit and to stay in teachable loving moods, then to rage.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Can you be converted through diet? No.
Does that mean you should have the most abominable diet possible?

Can you be converted by not smoking? No.
Does that mean you should criticize people if they choose not to smoke?

The disciples didn't address smoking either, so will you now claim that they gave permission to smoke?

Did they say unclean things are ok to eat?

No. They never said that. No one in the whole Bible ever says that it's now ok to eat the flesh of unclean beasts. They said some people consider things unclean for the chance that it might have been sacrificed to an idol.

The fact is the Gentiles only sacrificed clean beasts to idols.

Even today, those who practice Voodoo offer chickens and goats. Only clean beasts.

I know many people, including my wife, who can say like Peter:

Acts 11:8 ... nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

They are very happy and thankful to God they don't have to deal with the diseases of the Egyptians:

Exo. 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee.

They do not feel it's self-denial on their parts, because unclean flesh stinks if you have proper discernment and those who don't know any better are regarded with pity, love, and compassion.

Eating Pork can be Hazardous to your Health

2 Cor. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

Eph. 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Why didn't the disciples address every single issue possible? Why didn't they tell the gentiles not to have sex during menstruation?

Lev. 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

Ez. 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
18:6 [And] hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

Maybe they knew that already as a matter of common sense? Either that or they would eventually learn it through Moses WHOM THEY READ EVERY SINGLE SABBATH!!!!

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

That's why they only addressed those 4 things. Those where the most important things the Gentiles of that time and region where facing on a day to day basis, and the observance of these things effectively set them apart from other Gentiles. Everything else, they would eventually learn AS THEY READ MOSES EVERY SABBATH!

This is another verse which is completely ignored. An alternative interpretation is never even sought, but it's ignored as if it where never even sited.

How are the disciples going to pile every issue on the gentiles all at once? Jesus even said to the twelve, after they had grown up strict, God fearing, Jews, and had been training under Him 3 1/2 years that He had many more things to teach them, but they where not ready to bear them all yet.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

How much less would the Gentiles be able to bear all the things the Apostles had to teach?

Through lack of self discipline, at worse, you could cause the name of the Lord to be blasphemed among the Gentiles:

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

At best, you would put yourself at a disadvantage in many ways.

Temperance and self discipline are important things to the disciple of Christ.

Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled

2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

Disciple = one who has discipline!

I have seen the temperance and discipline of Buddhists, Hindus, Yogis, Muslims, and Pagans.

But the Christians shame their God by casting off all restraint so they can eat and drink anything and as much as they want and work on any day they want and do any thing they want and just be absolute slobs.

1 Cor. 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

But they work themselves up into an emotional frenzy and babble incoherently and fall down and spasm out and laugh uncontrollably, and they think they are surrendering themselves to God, but they are at war against God and His remnant, for they openly defy the Commandments of God in favor of their Pagan traditions which they justify by twisting certain verses and completely ignoring hundreds of verses which condemn their course of action.

Much emphasis on sacrifice. Little emphasis on obedience and faith.

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.
15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.

But as I've said, if you want to eat diseased flesh I won't bother you about it, but it would be a fatal mistake for you to go to war against those who don't. Though you have them outnumbered 1000 to 1, you will still lose.

Jer. 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [be] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Exo. 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to [do] evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest [judgment]:

It will be revealed in the judgment that those ministers who chose the much bigger crowd where really seeking their own glory and not the glory of God.





If you're willing to allow your dear friends to be deceived, then you don't really love but in fact, you hate them:

Prov. 27:5 Open rebuke [is] better than secret love.
27:6 Faithful [are] the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy [are] deceitful.

Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

I tried to change those words, but it seems God forbade me, for it was called for:

Matt. 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?

Matt. 23:24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matt. 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

How do the apostles teach us?

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

1 Tim. 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Titus 1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Rebuke when rebuke is called for is a sign of love, but failure to do so is a sign of hate!

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

And hate is murder.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Ez. 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

You guys have no excuse for the ignorance you've shown here. I always pray for you that you'll show a little spark of intelligence and wisdom.

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

But I'm sad because in this scorn I see a lack of wisdom:

Prov. 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

This is an excellent post and deserves its own thread, rush.

Rush

God bless you if you want to serve God by using the Law etc. But if you do then James tells us if you break one you break them all.

So under the OT, if you find one who breaks the law of God, you must stone him etc....

Concerning Sabbath, apostles met "on the first day" which is Saturday night really.

So now we get two days off to worship, cool. God gave us the Sabbath and Gentiles added Sunday instead.
I'm just happy we get 2 days!

It's the same in the new covenant:

Matt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So if you want people in God's kingdom to think highly of you, then keep all 10 commandments and teach others to do so. If you want them to despise and abhor you, or to call you the least, then just continue breaking one of them and teach others to do so.

If God's children call you the least, that means you don't have eternal life. It does not mean you'll have a low position in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Whatever you make as the practice of your life, you also influence others to do.

-- If pay homage to false Gods, you influence others to pay homage to false Gods
-- If you make the sign of the cross before an idol of Mary or fiddle with a rosary or do anything that pertains to idolatry, you also encourage others to do the same.
-- If it's your habit to take the Lord's name in vain, then you influence others to do the same.

And so on down the list.

This is the message of salvation. God saves you from your sin by giving you power to overcome sin. This is the power that those who pervert the Gospel deny:

2 Tim. 3:5 ...Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof...

If you are in Christ, your life should be in harmony with the Ten Commandments. You should have God's law written on your heart. You should also be at peace with God's people:

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If you're wroth with them, then you are of the dragon.

Job 41:34 ...he (-Leviathan-) [is] a king over all the children of pride.