Bs'd

Read here why the Jews don't believe in the NT: http://www.geocities.com/Metzad


Eliyahu

It is a well written article, although the author chooses his information selectively. He/they actually leaves out a few would-be indicators that seemingly disprove Jesus as King Messiah. Stephen's inaccuracies in the book of Acts have puzzled me. I can't offer any explanation for that. The dogs of the Gentiles are unconverted heathen idolators. Jesus was sent to the lost of Israel, who already had the Torah as a foundation of righteousness.

The Trinity is 3 separate persons in one...the author chose a radical viewpoint of the trinity held by a minority of Christians. This shows the importance of presenting a unified position based on sound doctrine.

Jesus Christ is meant to be a stumbling block to the wise of this world, whether Jew or Gentile. He is set forth as such in the OT.

<><
John

Bs'd

Fact of the matter is of course that NOWHERE in the Bible a trinity is to be found.

What is to be found is the fact that God is ONE.



I don't think so. Please give source for this assumption.



Eliyahu

They have trouble with believing in Jesus because they asked for a blood curse to be put upon them at the time of the crucifixtion.

Therefore, they were partially blinded until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. Nevertheless, God did not fully abandon them but still saves some by grace through faith.

The percentages of the saved through time even of gentiles is about 2% and likewise I would imagine that 2% of jews have believed as well. These percentages flutuate through time and some nations have much higher percentages and some much lower. Saudi Arabia....lower than 2%. The US, Canada, UK, Euro nations, Australia, New Zealand, probably higher due to original pilgrims and reformers although percentages seem to be dropping there as well.

You average gentile society and look at Russia, Middle East Arab nations, India, China etc and it brings the percentage back down.

Soon the gospel will return to the Jews and many will be saved as it is written.

The part of the Bible called the Old Testament.

"And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." Is 8:14

Bs'd

Just read that passage in its context:

For thus Y-H-W-H spoke to me with mighty power and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,
12"You are not to say, 'It is a conspiracy!'
In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy,
And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.
13"It is Y-H-W-H of hosts whom you should regard as holy.
And He shall be your fear,
And He shall be your dread.
14"Then He shall become a sanctuary;
But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over,
And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

As you can see, this text doesn't speak about JC, but about God.

I know it's a common practice of the Christians to just rip a text out of its context, and present it as speaking about JC, but when you look at it in context, you can see it is just a hoax.


Eliyahu

To begin with, some Jews do believe in Jesus. Many don't. Same as some Gentiles come to believe in Jesus. And many don't.

I believe most people that come to believe in Jesus, Jew or Gentile, do so after they recognize the futility and error
of whatever it is they believed in just prior to coming to believe on Jesus.

I came to Jesus after I came to realize the futility and error of atheism.

I imagine a seriously religious Jew would tend to come to Jesus AFTER he/she recognizes certain facts.

Such as that for nearly 2000 years it has been impossible for a Jew to worship in accord with Mosaic law. No temple and more.

Eventually a thoughtful Jew must confront the fact that [using the Romans as a tool] God Almighty CAUSED [not merely allowed]
the conquering of ancient Israel and destruction of the temple. The destruction took place as faith in Jesus was spreading like wildfire.

IF Jesus was a PHONEY, then the Jewish establishment did GOOD in rejecting Jesus.

So how account for God's using the Romans to destroy Israel ?

If the Jewish establishment had a PHONEY crucified, then why did God have Israel conquered and dispersed ?

God allowing Israel to be conquered and dispersed is tremendous evidence that the Jewish establishment made a big mistake.

Rejecting the Son of God was that mistake. However the Hebrew scripture reveals that it was planned all along.

And some now recognize the sacrifice that God provided [think Abraham and Isacc].

And some don't. Jew and Gentile alike.

Bs'd

Why should a Jew become a Christian when the Temple is destroyed, and not a Muslim?



How to account for the destruction of the first Temple, almost 500 years earlier?



That's easy; Because of the sins of the Jews.



I don't think so. Read my homepage why that's not the problem: http://www.geocities.com/Metzad


Eliyahu

I suppose you must be Jewish. If so, are you Orthodox?

JP REPLY-

I skimmed over it. Mostly trivia and nitpicking. The NT does not teach the "Trinity" doctrine.

The Trinity doctrine was concocted centures after the NT period. Concocted by decievers.

You are avoiding the big picture. As God watched [at the very least], Israel was conquered and faith in Jesus greatly expanded.

As the Jewish establishment used the Romans to crucify Christ,

God used the Romans to crush Israel.

The only rational explanation is that Jesus was/is the Messiah.

OT is full of accounts of the Jewish establishment persecuting prophets sent by God.

Notice this: When people come to faith in Jesus, they invaribly come to believe the Hebrew scripture.

So JESUS has made more Gentiles come to believe in Hebrew scripture [to believe in the "God of Israel"],

than all the others Jews who ever lived combined.

Israel's Messianic Jews Under Attack

Friday, Jun. 06, 2008

By TIM MCGIRK/ARIEL Reuters

The flyers appeared everywhere inside the Jewish settlement of Ariel, on car windshields and telephone poles, and in bus shelters. "Beware," it read, "these are the members of the Jewish Missionary Cult. They are baptizing Jews into Christianity." Included was a photo of Pastor David Ortiz and his address.

Ortiz didn't give it a thought. His Jewish neighbors liked him, and so did Ariel's mayor, who found Ortiz, originally from Brooklyn, useful in recruiting funds and political support from American and German Evangelicals for this stone-clad settlement on a breezy hilltop inside Palestinian territory.

But somebody disliked Ortiz and his beliefs enough to try to kill him and his family. By chance, Ortiz and his wife Leah were gone on March 20th when an unknown person dropped off a bomb disguised as a holiday gift package loaded with candy and chocolates. When Ortiz's 15 year-old son Ami plucked off a chocolate, it detonated a bomb powerful enough to blow out all the apartment's windows apartment and to be heard a mile away. The bomb was packed with nails, screws and needles. Doctors found over 100 pieces of metal embedded in the boy's body by the blast, which sheared off the skin and muscle on his legs and chest. The teenager survived, but still faces six more operations of skin grafts and the removal of shrapnel from his eyes. Whoever did it, says Ortiz, knew "that we adults wouldn't open up the Purim package — it would be the kids."

Messianic Jews, as these Jews who believe in Jesus are called, number just a few in Israel — anywhere between 6,000 and 15,000 — but they provoke hatred all out of proportion to their meager numbers. Many orthodox Jews view them as traitors for joining the Christian faith, which for centuries has persecuted Jews. One Messianic Jew, Tzvi Sadan, a teacher and editor, recalls telling his father, a Holocaust survivor, that he had accepted Jesus as his savior. "My dad flipped out. He said that the SS guards in the camp had 'God Is With Us' written on their belts. He told me, 'You've joined the enemy.' But he calmed down a bit when he saw my prayer shawl."

Some rabbis also view the Messianic Jews' conversion as part of a grand Evangelical scheme to fulfill Biblical prophecy (which requires the conversion of the Jews) and hasten the Messiah's arrival. Messianic Jews observe Judaism's rites, holidays and customs but believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

But lately, the outrage among extremist orthodox Jews has spilled into violence. Even after the Ariel bombing it has continued. Last month, when the deputy mayor of Or Yehuda, a town near Tel Aviv, found out that Messianic Jews had been passing out copies of the New Testament to a community of poor Ethiopian Jews, he ordered the books to be collected and they were set alight in a bonfire. He later apologized and said the Bibles had been burned accidentally. "If somebody had done that in Europe to Jewish Torahs, you can image what sort of a reaction that would provoke here," says Ortiz. To be fair, commentators and officials in Israel were quick to condemn the act, comparing it to the infamous book burning by Nazis.

Messianic Jews living in the Negev Desert also say they are routinely harassed and attacked by yeshiva students, some inspired by Yad L'achem, a religious organization dedicated to stamping out Christian missionary activities in Israel. Random acts of anti-Christian violence have also occurred: last October in Jerusalem, a church was fire-bombed, and several days after Christmas, a German pilgrim who was returning from Bethlehem carrying a large wooden cross was attacked by a gang of ultra-orthodox youths who smashed the cross into splinters. These are isolated attacks, and Christians living in Israel say that as long as they refrain from missionary work — prohibited by the Israeli government — they are left free to worship.

Israel finds itself in a predicament: it wants to welcome Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land out of goodwill and for tourism revenue, but it also wants to keep exuberant missionaries from trying to convert Jews. At the same time, news of these attacks — especially the Ariel bombing and the Bible-burning — has circulated widely among Christian churches around the world. "I'm getting calls from Norway," says Leah Ortiz, "asking if Christians are being persecuted in Israel, and I say 'No, of course not.' What happened to our son, this isn't religion. It's insanity."

So far, police have failed to make any arrests in the Ortiz bombing. But whoever assembled the bomb knew what he was doing and had access to plastic explosives, probably stolen from the Israeli military. "We're afraid that whoever did this," says Ortiz, "might try it again. With us, they crossed the line, and we're afraid of it happening to someone else."

Given the hardship Messianic Jews face in Israel and his son's multiple injuries, would the Ortiz move his family back to Brooklyn? "No way," Ortiz replies. "Jesus wasn't born in Brooklyn. He was born here. We're staying."

With reporting by Aaron J. Klein/Jerusalem

Bs'd

Since JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies, the only rational conclusion is that he was not the messiah.


Eliyahu

Are you saying Y'shua is not the Messiah?

YOU [and many others] say He did not.

The fact that God caused the conquering and dispersal of Israel [while faith in Jesus quickly grew thrived] demonstrates that He did.

The fact is YOU misunderstand messianic prophecies. Same as those who crucified The Son of God misunderstood them.

Hopefully, in time, you will grasp the significance of "God will provide the sacrifice"

and "I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel"

and Isaiah 53

Pretty much he's been saying that. Lol. I think he's from that anti-christian group trying to stop Christians from evangelizing the Jews. Inark was one of them. He got moderated off of the forum. Probably like this guy will be.

I'll tell you why the Jews don't accept the New Testament.

Here's a nice history lesson for you fundamental Christians.

Jews 1st wrote the 1st Genesis 600 B.C. under King Josiah (where it only talked about creation). There, they use the world being created in 6 days and rested on the 7th. This was based off the Egypt calendar.

Then, King Nebuchadnezzar kicked the Jews out of Israel. The Jews felt it was their destined land..

Sometime later, Cyrus the Great helped the Jews and put them back in Israel.

So the Jews liked Cyrus.

What did the Jews do now? They wrote some more books, and wrote Genesis 2, where it talks about the Adam and Eve story (as symbolism of the 1st Jews), and how God put them in the Garden of Eden where they belong (where the garden was symbolism of Israel). This was to justify how the Jews felt they should own Israel. The Old Testament has many symbolisms as to what reflects the story of how the Jews were.

But gee, what do the Christians do? They don't take the Old Testament symbolically, they take it literally. They have no idea that the Jews wrote it for revenge.

Big whoop..

The Jews felt they were God's chosen people for Israel. The Muslims came with their own religion with Mohamed as their chosen profit. I once went to a Chinese church where they said God loves all Chinese people more than he loves the rest of the people, and I actually believed that.

Well I got out of that mess.

All human races are equal. All human ethnicities should be equal.

Neal C.

Most likely because Christianity is a "spin-off" of Judaism.

Only those who accept Christ are jews. The rest are the "synagogue of satan".


Revelation 3
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Jews don't blame Moises for their own sins.
I hope they stop blaming Jesus for the sins of Christians.

Christ appeared to Israel 483 years after the decree to re-build Jeruslaem, just as Daniel prophesied............the Bible predicts the future thousands of years in advance

the OT predicted the exact date of saddam's death, and the method of his death (hanging)

the Christian God/bible is the only Source that predicts the future , thousands of years in advance, concerning great world-events, such as the rise/fall of nations/peoples.

the Bible is proved true

the Jews who are STILL waiting for the Christ/messiah to appear the FIRST TIME,,,,,,,,have waited 2000 years too long,,,,,,,,,,,the 483 year deadline was 2000 years ago

.

Jesus said
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Obadiah wrote

1: The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.
2: Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.
3: The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?
4: Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.
5: If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes?
6: How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!
7: All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.
8: Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?
9: And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.

10: For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

11: In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.

12: But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.

13: Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;

14: Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

Moses wrote
Deut 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

16: They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17: They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18: Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19: And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20: And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21: They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22: For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23: I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24: They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25: The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26: I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:27: Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.
28: For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

again Jesus said

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Bs'd

If you would have bothered to read that text in it's context, you would have seen that it speaks not about JC, but about the one and only God Y-H-W-H:

"13 Y-H-W-H Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,

14 and he will be a sanctuary;
but for both houses of Israel he will be
a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare."
Isaiah 8


Eliyahu




Bs'd

I follow the orthodox Jewish religion.


Eliyahu



Bs'd

I follow the orthodox Jewish religion.


Eliyahu

Bs'd

So I take it you don't believe in the trinity.

But do you believe that JC was a god, or divine?



So did the faith in Mohammed.



When people become Muslims, they also start to believe in the Hebrew scriptures. So don't forget Mohammed.


Eliyahu

Bs'd

" 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again." Deut 13


Eliyahu

Everybody with three working braincells can see he did not:

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

.........Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ---, and upon a colt the foal of an ---. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

.........Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

..........Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

.......... Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.



Isaiah 53 is the only text Christians have to back up their story about a suffering and dying messiah.

The only problem is: There is no messiah whatsoever to be found in Isaiah 53.

For the finer details, look here: http://www.geocities.com/Metzad/Isaiah53.htm


Eliyahu

Bs'd

If I, God forbid, get moderated off this forum, then people interested in continuing the discussion, can do so on this forum:
http://finaltruth.goodforum.net/index.htm


Eliyahu

Bs'd

Read here why the Christian explanation of Daniel 9 is WRONG: http://www.geocities.com/Metzad/Daniel9.html


Eliyahu

Bs'd

"The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning EDOM"

So this speaks about EDOM.

Who is Edom? "And these are the generations of Esau, that is Edom." Gen 36:1

So Esau is Edom, and Jacob = Israel. Israel is not Edom.
Edom stands for Esau. According Jewish tradition Esau stands for Rome, stands for the RK church.

So the vision of Obadjah doesn't speak about Israel, it speaks about Christianity.


Eliyahu

So what then if you are the messenger sent by the Lord to bring about your brothers day. You know the one sent to smite your brother, by the Power of God, who will not hear the truth of God. What scripture do you have for such a one as this?

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
10 ----- because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.


1 Corinthians 6
2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Here's your complete and full answer. Read it all.

http://messiahtruth.com/

.




All of those who are Jews and all of Israel Believe in the New Testament.

They all Love Christ more than food, more than water, more than Life.


It is The dead that don't believe.














.

More Jews would believe in the NT if those who professed to believe in it actually obeyed it.


<><

John

Kinda like Ghandi who read the teachings of Jesus and declared he never met a real Christian, who was "Christlike" if you will.

Sad when this happens.

But how can Y-H-W-H be a rock of offense as He is the God of Moises? Jesus is compared to a stone....

If this isn't an anti-Christ message, what is?

Is the trinity a bigger issue than Jesus of Nazareth being the true Messiah?

Pick your battles, soldiers of Christ - this is the frontline of the war...

I asked you a question on another thread, Joseph or is it Moshe? Forget it - never mind - I don't need what you're selling here.

The truth is about to catch up with everyone anyway. That great city called confusion (Babylon) will be brought down, never to rise again. The Lord will cause the truth to be known to His chosen. But most of the residue will not know what hit them when they are swept away.

...

Bs'd

"For I will proclaim the name of Y-H-W-H
Ascribe greatness to our God!
"The Rock, his work is perfect;
for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
just and right is he."
Deut 32:3


Eliyahu

Isa 8:14 He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense To both the houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Is this Yaweh or Jesus...

Bs'd

Y-H-W-H Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,
and he will be a sanctuary;
but for both houses of Israel he will be
a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare.
Isaiah 8:13-14



The answer to your question is a kind of obvious, isn't it?


Eliyahu

Bs'd


It sure is.

Being wrong about the messiah is not a big deal. It's not good, but not a horrible sin.

However, having three gods is idol worship, a sin that incurs the death penalty.

And saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 is not going to change that.


Eliyahu

Everybody starts off "wrong" about the Messiah.

Remaining wrong about the messiah for too long

[how long is too long is Jesus's call]

results in the mistaken person

spending eternity in torment.

It's a big deal.

Bs'd

Why would God want to torment anybody for all eternity?

Is your God a sadist?


Eliyahu

Have you ever read Dr. Michael L. Brown's book series Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus? I have read them and I believe that they would give you a lot to chew on if you are seeking some serious and scholarly answers to your ideas. Here is a link to his website http://realmessiah.com/

Here are some samples from his books. They are each about a full chapter length in their full length. These are introductory samples.
Objection: 3.1. “Jews don’t believe in the Trinity. We believe in one God, not three.”

Answer: “Just as Messianic Jews probably misunderstand some of the things you believe, I think you misunderstand some of the things I believe. We do not in any way believe in three gods. My God is one, and his name is the LORD (or, Yahweh, known to Orthodox Jews as HaShem). He revealed himself to us through his Son, the Messiah, who is the very image and reflection of God. And he touches us and speaks to us by his Spirit. These are deep, spiritual truths. Later theologians labeled this relationship the Trinity -- God as a triune One. But the word ‘Trinity’ is not found anywhere in the New Testament and it may confuse the issues for you.” (See Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 2, pp. 3-14.)

Objection: 3.2. “If you claim that Jesus is God then you are guilty of making God into a man. You are an idol worshiper!”
Answer: “We believe that the eternally preexistent Son of God, through whom the universe was made, came forth from God his Father and was clothed with human flesh, making himself known to us as Yeshua the Messiah. He lived on this earth, died, rose from the dead, and returned to his Father. He now sits enthroned in heaven next to God. We understand that Jesus, the Son of God, is the very image of God, the one in whom God caused his fullness to dwell, the one through whom he revealed himself completely to mankind. Since the Son came forth from the Father and shares his divine nature, in one sense it is quite correct to say that Jesus is God (or, divine, or deity), always bearing in mind that the overwhelming testimony of the New Testament writings is that Jesus is the Son of God. I can show you from the Hebrew Scriptures that there is absolutely nothing idolatrous about what I believe. God has always revealed himself to his people. He did it most permanently and most fully through Jesus his Son.” (See Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 2, pp. 14-37.)

Objection: 3.3. “God doesn’t have a son.”
Answer: “It all depends on what you mean by the word son. In the Hebrew Bible, Israel was called God’s son, the king was called God’s son, and the angels were called God’s sons. Is it any wonder that the Messiah, the ideal representative of Israel, the king of all earthly kings, and the one more highly exalted than the angels, should be called God’s Son? More than anyone else who has walked this earth, Jesus the Messiah is uniquely entitled to be called the Son of God.” (See Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 2, pp. 38-48.)

Objection: 3.4. “According to the Law (Deuteronomy 13), Jesus was a false prophet because he taught us to follow other gods (namely, the Trinity, including the god Jesus), gods our fathers have never known or worshiped. This makes all his miracles utterly meaningless.”
Answer: “Have you ever read what Jesus and his followers taught? They emphasized, ‘Love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Follow him. Obey him!’ Jesus pointed everyone to God his Heavenly Father -- by his miracles, by his message, and by his life. He lived, died, and rose again for the glory of his Father. Thus Jesus was a faithful and true prophet.” (See Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 2, pp. 48-52.)

Objection: 3.5. “The Holy Spirit is not the so-called third person of the Trinity.”
Answer: “Rather than discuss the Trinity again (see 3.1, above), let’s focus on one question: Is the Holy Spirit only a ‘what’ or are there dimensions in which the Spirit is a ‘who’? From the Scriptures, it can be demonstrated that God’s Spirit is more than just an abstract power. The Holy Spirit is part of God’s very essence and clearly has personality. The New Testament simply expands on these established, biblical truths, which, interestingly enough, are treated in a similar way in some later Rabbinic traditions.” (See Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 2, pp. 52-59.)

Isaiah 53 is the only text Christians have to back up their story about a suffering and dying messiah.

The only problem is: There is no messiah whatsoever to be found in Isaiah 53.

For the finer details, look here: http://www.geocities.com/Metzad/Isaiah53.htm


Eliyahu


Well that is certainly not true, regardless of what you believe.

Here are some Messianic Christophanies for you .

Future calling of the remnant.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Killing of the Good Shephard:

Zec 13:7 ¶ Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.


God telling David that the Messiah will be His (God's) Son from the line of David:

1Ch 17:10 And since the time that I commanded judges [to be] over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.


1Ch 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go [to be] with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.


1Ch 17:12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.

1Ch 17:13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took [it] from [him] that was before thee:


1Ch 17:14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

AND AGAIN:

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.


Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.


Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.


Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

MESSISAH to be killed among His brethren.


Psa 22:1 ¶ [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?


Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.


Psa 22:3 But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel.


Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.


Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.


Psa 22:6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.


Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying],


Psa 22:8 He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.


Psa 22:9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts.


Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.


Psa 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help. NO ONE WILL HELP HIM.


Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round.


Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion. THEY WILL MOCK HIM


Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. WATER WILL FLOW OUT FROM HIS BODY

Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. HE WILL SUFFER UNTIL TOTALLY DEHYDRATED AND MADE INTO DUST.....


Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. HANDS AND FEET PIERCED


Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.


Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. CAST LOTS FOR HIS CLOTHING


Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.


Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.


Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.


Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. HE WILL PRAISE HIS FATHER IN SPITE OF HIS SUFFERING



Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.


So there are more prophecies concerning a suffering Messiah apart from Isaiah. Even from the root of Jesse. Regarding the length of time, that was the mystery Kingdom which is outlined by Paul; so it is true that no one forsaw this apart from Daniel and the 69th week, 70th week prophecy...and he did not know the length of time nor did the apostles or prophets.

So you are correct in saying that the OT did not tell us the length of time of the lapse between first coming and second coming; this was all mystery kingdom doctrine that is explained in the NT but is not given a time period however is substatiated by Daniel the prophet.

The story of Abraham and Issac gives us a clear picture of the requirement for sin, which is the death of a son by the father. This sacrifice was of course stopped because Issac was not sinless and could not fulfill the sacrificial lamb role; but does foreshadow the Lamb of God who is Jesus.

Anyway, further study will show that Isaiah was not uniquely told of the suffering Messiah.

It is also a prominent rabbinical tradition that there would be two Messiahs. Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Yoseph. The fist would be a great military leader in Israel. The latter would be a prophet who would suffer and die for Israel. The scriptures that are used to provode evidence for these two Messiahs can easily and beautifully be combined together in the life and ministry of Jesus. His first coming has fulfilled the role of Messiah ben Yoseph. His second coming will fulfill the role of Messiah ben David. There is a Jewish belief in a suffering Messiah.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Lev 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

Jesus Christ is not the stumbling block, it is the story of the crucifixion of Christ. And 'stumblingblock' in the Old Testament means 'obstacle' and it became 'scandal' in the New.

Eze 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

God says He will answer who comes to Him according to the multitude of their idols. The stumblingblock of the iniquity of the Jews is the crucifixion of Christ. The 'obstacle' of the Jew is the crucifixion so the Jew removes the obstacle; they refuse to believe in the crucifixion. The Jews refuse to believe that to be saved you must believe that Christ was crucified and rose from the dead. The New Testament sets the Jews and the Greeks apart, neither group believes in the crucifixion. That was then though. Now, we should have grown from a child needing the milk of the land to an adult who does not.
Now, if Jesus Christ set up as an idol in your heart and in your heart He has been crucified dead and buried and rose again the third day and one day He will return to judge, God says 'I will answer you in that way.'
If, however, Allah and hisvirgins are your idols and he is going to send a 7th Imam, God will answer you in that way.
If Buddha and his maidens are your idols, God will answer you in that way. I don't know what Buddha is gonna send.
God will answer all of Israel according to what controls them. Israel is a nation and a company of nations.
To the Jews praying at the 'wailing wall,' God answers their prayers according to what is in their heart.
To the Christians, what is in their heart.
If the Christian has Love, Peace, Prosperity in their heart, God answers that.
If the Jew has Love, Peace, Prosperity in their heart, God answers that.
God is within you. The Kingdom of God is within you. It is what you have in your heart that God answers.
So the terrorist that has murder in their heart, God answers that with judgement. There is the command 'Thou shalt not Kill.' God does not stop the killing, but he judges the killer and usually it is death. The suicide bombers wear their iniquity and their judgement.

eliyahuzion, is Messiah ben David the root of Jesse and Messiah ben Yoseph the stone of Israel?

Speaking of Yoseph:
Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

This is the 'root of Jesse' which is David:
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


This is speaking of the Lord of hosts and an answer to the first question:
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
So, according to the New Testament, Jesus fulfilled that if you believe Jesus is God.

There is no such thing as eternal torment. Eternal judgment, but no eternal torment.

I agree with the rest.