Thought I'd put this up just to see everyones opinions on the matter. So your probably wondering what I'm talking about so I'm going to list off my problems with the Catholic church, and then leave it open for anyone to put in their thoughts and views. All ideas are welcome.
Ok here we go:
The Pope, Archbishops, Bishops, Priest etc. - I believe that the Catholic heirarchy is wrong and against what God said. God left instructions as to how he wanted his church to be set up. I ask then how has the most famous of the Christian demonotaions seeming rejected all of this teaching? The Catholic church imposes its own rules rather than listening to God. For example the idea that the Pope is somehow purer than regular people, when he is a sinner as much as any other man. And keeping the poor man from marrying, when the Bible clearly says that marriage is Holy. And the idea that we are to have are sins forgiven and come close to God through men, when the Bible says that only through Jesus can we come to God and be forgiven.
The Saints and Mary - These people have been made into false idols. The bible says "all men who believe are saints", so why place these above the rest? And then people pray to the saints rather than God, when God has said only through Jesus can we come to the Lord. And worryingly worship of mary is starting to overtake worship of God, when the bible says we should not be worshipping her at all, or anyone else! The Bible says that God is the only one deserving of our worship, so how can the Catholic Church justify these false idols?
These are my main points of annoyance, I'm eager to see what everyone elses views are.
God bless
Thedoubter.
Full Version: The Catholic Church - For God Or Against Him?
THE ROMAN CATHOLIC "CHURCH" IS NOT CHRISTIAN
Practically all precepts of the Roman Catholic religion contradict the Bible repeatedly. It is the largest cult in the world and most preachers will not openly say so because it is so large. For Catholics who read this, please remember this: the person that tells you the truth is the one that cares.
For a glimpse of the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic religion, do a net search on the Inquisition or the Crusades. During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions. Why? Primarily to suppress any and all opposition to the pope. Side "benefits" included taking the material wealth of its victims and showing the pope's power. The Catholic Inquisitors tortured, crippled, burned, and imprisioned millions of people. Whatever happened to love your enemies? (Matthew 5:44)
Before we get to specific problems with Catholic doctrine, let's review how this bloodthirsty organization treated a man who simply wanted to get the Bible into the hands of the common people. In the late 1300s John Wycilf translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate. Some 40 odd years after his death, the Catholic religion dug up his bones and burned them calling him an arch-heretick. In the 1500's William Tyndale sought to translate the Bible into the language of the common people, English. He could not gain approval from the Catholic religon so he worked as an outlaw on the run in Europe, translating the Bible. He was eventually captured, condemned and executed in 1536. It is because of people like these men, Tyndale and Wycliffe, that we have the scriptures today. If the Catholic religion had its way, we'd still be in ignorance about the Bible and enslaved to the pope. Time fails me here to tell of other marytrs like John Hus, John Rogers, etc. who were killed by popish persons.
CATHOLIC TRADITIONS AND WHAT THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY ABOUT THE MATTER:
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm
MORE INFO:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2594/
Practically all precepts of the Roman Catholic religion contradict the Bible repeatedly. It is the largest cult in the world and most preachers will not openly say so because it is so large. For Catholics who read this, please remember this: the person that tells you the truth is the one that cares.
For a glimpse of the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic religion, do a net search on the Inquisition or the Crusades. During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions. Why? Primarily to suppress any and all opposition to the pope. Side "benefits" included taking the material wealth of its victims and showing the pope's power. The Catholic Inquisitors tortured, crippled, burned, and imprisioned millions of people. Whatever happened to love your enemies? (Matthew 5:44)
Before we get to specific problems with Catholic doctrine, let's review how this bloodthirsty organization treated a man who simply wanted to get the Bible into the hands of the common people. In the late 1300s John Wycilf translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate. Some 40 odd years after his death, the Catholic religion dug up his bones and burned them calling him an arch-heretick. In the 1500's William Tyndale sought to translate the Bible into the language of the common people, English. He could not gain approval from the Catholic religon so he worked as an outlaw on the run in Europe, translating the Bible. He was eventually captured, condemned and executed in 1536. It is because of people like these men, Tyndale and Wycliffe, that we have the scriptures today. If the Catholic religion had its way, we'd still be in ignorance about the Bible and enslaved to the pope. Time fails me here to tell of other marytrs like John Hus, John Rogers, etc. who were killed by popish persons.
CATHOLIC TRADITIONS AND WHAT THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY ABOUT THE MATTER:
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm
MORE INFO:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2594/
I too, am against the Catholic Church.
At 1 time, they banned eating meat on Fridays. You needed a priest to give "special dispensation."
Of course, the Catholic Church was worse. Back in the 1400s, they'd punish Galileo in a bonfire for coming up with the idea that the Earth revolves around the sun when they thought the Earth doesn't move and the sun revolves around the Earth.
Well, lucky today, they aren't like that. Ain't science wonderful?
Wikipedia has an article dedicated to list of pope scandals. But criticisms to the Catholic Church in the 1400s aren't legit when used today in my eyes.
At 1 time, they banned eating meat on Fridays. You needed a priest to give "special dispensation."
Of course, the Catholic Church was worse. Back in the 1400s, they'd punish Galileo in a bonfire for coming up with the idea that the Earth revolves around the sun when they thought the Earth doesn't move and the sun revolves around the Earth.
Well, lucky today, they aren't like that. Ain't science wonderful?
Wikipedia has an article dedicated to list of pope scandals. But criticisms to the Catholic Church in the 1400s aren't legit when used today in my eyes.
QUOTE (Thedoubter @ May 12 2008, 09:14 AM) 
Thought I'd put this up just to see everyones opinions on the matter. So your probably wondering what I'm talking about so I'm going to list off my problems with the Catholic church, and then leave it open for anyone to put in their thoughts and views. All ideas are welcome.
Ok here we go:
The Pope, Archbishops, Bishops, Priest etc. - I believe that the Catholic heirarchy is wrong and against what God said. God left instructions as to how he wanted his church to be set up. I ask then how has the most famous of the Christian demonotaions seeming rejected all of this teaching? The Catholic church imposes its own rules rather than listening to God. For example the idea that the Pope is somehow purer than regular people, when he is a sinner as much as any other man. And keeping the poor man from marrying, when the Bible clearly says that marriage is Holy. And the idea that we are to have are sins forgiven and come close to God through men, when the Bible says that only through Jesus can we come to God and be forgiven.
Ok here we go:
The Pope, Archbishops, Bishops, Priest etc. - I believe that the Catholic heirarchy is wrong and against what God said. God left instructions as to how he wanted his church to be set up. I ask then how has the most famous of the Christian demonotaions seeming rejected all of this teaching? The Catholic church imposes its own rules rather than listening to God. For example the idea that the Pope is somehow purer than regular people, when he is a sinner as much as any other man. And keeping the poor man from marrying, when the Bible clearly says that marriage is Holy. And the idea that we are to have are sins forgiven and come close to God through men, when the Bible says that only through Jesus can we come to God and be forgiven.
The hierarchical positions of church government are clearly outlined in the scriptures. Please give evidence that the Pope is believed to be purer than other people? Certainly he is elected pope because he is pure, but this is not by comparison with others. Nor is this purity said to come from the Popes inherent lack of sin but rather by the sanctifying work of Jesus Christ show evidence of his work in the popes many years of life.
Confessions are made to the priest who is the vicar of Christ, in other words, his proxy and representative on the earth. The priest is performing the role of Jesus Christ. Therefore when we confess our sins to the priest it is as if we are confessing them to Jesus Christ himself.
QUOTE (Thedoubter @ May 12 2008, 09:14 AM)
The Saints and Mary - These people have been made into false idols. The bible says "all men who believe are saints", so why place these above the rest? And then people pray to the saints rather than God, when God has said only through Jesus can we come to the Lord. And worryingly worship of mary is starting to overtake worship of God, when the bible says we should not be worshipping her at all, or anyone else! The Bible says that God is the only one deserving of our worship, so how can the Catholic Church justify these false idols?
These are my main points of annoyance, I'm eager to see what everyone elses views are.
God bless
Thedoubter.
These are my main points of annoyance, I'm eager to see what everyone elses views are.
God bless
Thedoubter.
In the first and second centuries after the saints were martyred their bones were gathered into a crypt. Christians would come to pay their respects. Great miracles occurred with people being healed who came and touched the bones or the crypt, or who prayed there. Soon people would come from miles around to pray to God and hear the stories of the saint told. Over time these journeys became pilgrimages, churches were built around the crypt, church services were held. The church was naturally named after the saint who everybody came to visit. Statues and paintings depicting the life of the saint and all of the other saints and biblical characters were also erected. These statues became reminders of the stories of the Bible and the early church in the days before Christians could read.
Then of course imposters started to cash in and set up sham shrines with false stories to hook in the gullible and spread lies about the gospel. So sanctioned lists of shrines and saints were assembled to protect Christians from the charlatans. This is the basis of the canon of the saints, which pretty well mirrors the sanctioned list of books in the canon. The canonisation of saints in no way is designed to infer that other Christians are not saints in the biblical sense of the word.
It is a twisted lie to claim that these statues or saints are worshipped by Catholics. Who told you that? Sometimes when I read the bible I am overwhelmed and fall to my knees and worship God with my arms over the Bible. Am I worshipping the Bible then? Only the hardest of judgemental hearts would accuse me of such.
It seems to me that you are labouring under a great many misconceptions about the Catholic church. Most of these issues have been discussed at great length in various threads on this forum. If you have a particular bug bear about the Catholic church which you would like me to address let me know and I will find the appropriate thread for you. As it is you have raised too many issues at once.
QUOTE
The hierarchical positions of church government are clearly outlined in the scriptures.
Please can you put up the Bible verses showing this, I would be very interested in reading them.
QUOTE
Please give evidence that the Pope is believed to be purer than other people? Certainly he is elected pope because he is pure, but this is not by comparison with others. Nor is this purity said to come from the Popes inherent lack of sin but rather by the sanctifying work of Jesus Christ show evidence of his work in the popes many years of life.
It does not matter what works God has used you for, your still equally impure as everyone else, as all sin is equal in Gods eyes. You say he is pure, but not in comparrison with others, however saying something is pure means you have to have a point of refference of something else that is impure, therefore saying something is pure is by definition a comparrison. And this this case it logically has to be in comparrison with other people, as you are saying that he is pure as a person.
QUOTE
Confessions are made to the priest who is the vicar of Christ, in other words, his proxy and representative on the earth. The priest is performing the role of Jesus Christ. Therefore when we confess our sins to the priest it is as if we are confessing them to Jesus Christ himself.
Again this is a contradiction with the bible. After the death and resurrection of Jesus the Holy Spirit was sent to earth so that everyone could basically have (to quote a marylin manson song) their own, personal Jesus, living inside of them. The Bible clearly says that the Spirit is Gods representative to all. And again what puts the priests in a position above others in this respect? Especially in the current climate where a non-believer can join the catholic heirarchy no questions asked. My point here is that we dont need to confess to a vicar or priest who represents God when we already have a far better representative living inside of us already.
QUOTE
In the first and second centuries after the saints were martyred their bones were gathered into a crypt. Christians would come to pay their respects. Great miracles occurred with people being healed who came and touched the bones or the crypt, or who prayed there. Soon people would come from miles around to pray to God and hear the stories of the saint told. Over time these journeys became pilgrimages, churches were built around the crypt, church services were held. The church was naturally named after the saint who everybody came to visit. Statues and paintings depicting the life of the saint and all of the other saints and biblical characters were also erected. These statues became reminders of the stories of the Bible and the early church in the days before Christians could read.
This just doesnt feel "of God" to me. These people were nothing particulaly special, they all lead lives as impure as anyone else. If I'm totally honest here I dont see this as being a Godly context, miracles through touching the bones of the dead, almost sounds pagan.
QUOTE
Then of course imposters started to cash in and set up sham shrines with false stories to hook in the gullible and spread lies about the gospel. So sanctioned lists of shrines and saints were assembled to protect Christians from the charlatans. This is the basis of the canon of the saints, which pretty well mirrors the sanctioned list of books in the canon. The canonisation of saints in no way is designed to infer that other Christians are not saints in the biblical sense of the word.
But only the biblical sense of the word matters. You cant say "the bible says were all saints, but these guys, they were REALLY saints", it just doesnt make sense.
QUOTE
It is a twisted lie to claim that these statues or saints are worshipped by Catholics. Who told you that? Sometimes when I read the bible I am overwhelmed and fall to my knees and worship God with my arms over the Bible. Am I worshipping the Bible then? Only the hardest of judgemental hearts would accuse me of such.
I know quite a few catholics, and have been to a fair few catholic services. Prayer to the saints seems commonplace form my experience, and the emphasise of the virgin mary seems pretty odd and very ungodly. I am not accusing you of anything, dont get me wrong it is not my intent to insult or accuse. And no, the bible is the word of God, therefore you are worshipping God, but these people are just that, people, and are therefore undeserving of worship and praying to them is the equivilant of praying to me or you (as we are all saints).
Ok willl leave most of that for food for thought, what I'm most interested in is looking at the scripture I asked for in my first point.
Many thanks
Thedounter
I do not judge another man's servant. As far as I can tell people do not worship Mary. I was disturbed by those charges against them too a long time ago. A Papal Bull declaring Mary Co-Redemptrix in the late 1800's certainly draws the ire of many people. There is only One God. Do they think Mary is God? I do not know. People I know do not think so.
The Catholic Church - For God Or Against Him?
The Catholic church stands on three pillars
1. Bible
2. The teachings of the RC church
3. The holy traditions
The problems with numbers two and three are that they run afoul of the words of Jesus;
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
The system of hierarchy is also a problem
Matthew 23:11
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
1 Peter 5:3
Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
This human tendency to turn Christianity into a religion and run it like an organizational system can be seen in the Book of Galatians and even in the practices of the Phaisees. The early church embraced the Greek philosophies and rhetoric, the system of the academy, and the elevation of important men long before it was made a wholly owned subsidiary of the Roman Empire.
Even protestant denominations with their sincere desire to have correct doctrine are still stained with the legacy of organizational systems instead of relational ecclesia.
The Catholic church stands on three pillars
1. Bible
2. The teachings of the RC church
3. The holy traditions
The problems with numbers two and three are that they run afoul of the words of Jesus;
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
The system of hierarchy is also a problem
Matthew 23:11
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
1 Peter 5:3
Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
This human tendency to turn Christianity into a religion and run it like an organizational system can be seen in the Book of Galatians and even in the practices of the Phaisees. The early church embraced the Greek philosophies and rhetoric, the system of the academy, and the elevation of important men long before it was made a wholly owned subsidiary of the Roman Empire.
Even protestant denominations with their sincere desire to have correct doctrine are still stained with the legacy of organizational systems instead of relational ecclesia.
The Catholic church is Christian. However there is much syncretism involved. It is an example of a system that denies it's Hebraic roots and tries to re-invent itself to please the masses (pun intended). However, there is nothing new under the sun. The catholic church is out of order....God's order. However God still loves catholics! 
John
adullam,
No, it's not, unless one includes apostate and cultic organizations which claim to be Christian under the rubric, "Christian". But of course God still loves Catholics, just as He still loves Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses - He just doesn't approve of their organizations or beliefs.
QUOTE
The Catholic church is Christian.
No, it's not, unless one includes apostate and cultic organizations which claim to be Christian under the rubric, "Christian". But of course God still loves Catholics, just as He still loves Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses - He just doesn't approve of their organizations or beliefs.
QUOTE (Godsword @ May 14 2008, 12:16 PM)
adullam,
No, it's not, unless one includes apostate and cultic organizations which claim to be Christian under the rubric, "Christian". But of course God still loves Catholics, just as He still loves Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses - He just doesn't approve of their organizations or beliefs.
QUOTE
The Catholic church is Christian.
No, it's not, unless one includes apostate and cultic organizations which claim to be Christian under the rubric, "Christian". But of course God still loves Catholics, just as He still loves Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses - He just doesn't approve of their organizations or beliefs.
A Christian is not an organization. If you want to judge by that standard then all who attend steeple houses of any kind (baptists, pentecostals etc) aren't Christian either. Have you escaped the religious system brother?
John
The Catholic church is for God. The real questions is, are you going to tear apart Jesus Christ's body or support it?
Caneman
Caneman
QUOTE (Caneman @ May 14 2008, 11:42 AM)
The Catholic church is for God. The real questions is, are you going to tear apart Jesus Christ's body or support it?
Caneman
Caneman
That depends if you believe the catholic church and the Body of Christ are synonymous. It isn't wrong to separate a catholic from his mother church through a spiritual weaning unto a greater maturity in Christ. Jesus did come to bring a sword!
Maran atha
John
Does anyone here really want to know Why Catholics do Such and such, or is your real agenda for no other purpose than to tear down the Church and build yourself up in your own minds. LOOK AT ME AT LEAST I AM NOT CATHOLIC. OOOOh that felt so good to puff up my own pride! 
Satan knows just how to tickle one with sweet words doesn't he.
God Bless,
K.D.
Satan knows just how to tickle one with sweet words doesn't he.
God Bless,
K.D.
Goodness sake KD! I haven't been here in a long time an hit the new items....you have had to defend your faith in the first 10, no less than three times.
Love ya dear brother
God Bless,
leia
Love ya dear brother
God Bless,
leia
QUOTE (leia @ May 14 2008, 03:01 PM)
Goodness sake KD! I haven't been here in a long time an hit the new items....you have had to defend your faith in the first 10, no less than three times.
Love ya dear brother
God Bless,
leia
Love ya dear brother
God Bless,
leia
I have noticed that you have not been here. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN YOUNG LADY. And don't tell me your cell phone battery was dead either.
Thanks,
K.D.
I believe the purpose of this thread is to ascertain whether the RC church is for or against the plan of God.
John
John
adullam,
True. But I never said a Christian was. I simply disagreed with your statement: "The Catholic church is Christian." In the context of describing an organization, the term "Christian" is supposed to indicate a group of people who share the fundamentals of the Christian faith, without adulteration or corruption in points with implications for the Gospel. The Catholic Church is therefore not "Christian", because it adulterates the faith by adding to and distorting the Gospel, doing so by means of various of its doctrines, which I shall not list here.
I believe you have confused what I said. I never said the Catholic Church wasn't Christian because it is an organization.
Certainly. But what does that have to do with my comment that the Roman Catholic Church is not a Christian organization?
On the other hand, have you substituted a subtle legalism for genuine fellowship, in seemingly judging all who attend "steeple houses of any kind" as not genuinely following or obeying Christ? Or have I misunderstood you?
QUOTE
A Christian is not an organization.
True. But I never said a Christian was. I simply disagreed with your statement: "The Catholic church is Christian." In the context of describing an organization, the term "Christian" is supposed to indicate a group of people who share the fundamentals of the Christian faith, without adulteration or corruption in points with implications for the Gospel. The Catholic Church is therefore not "Christian", because it adulterates the faith by adding to and distorting the Gospel, doing so by means of various of its doctrines, which I shall not list here.
QUOTE
If you want to judge by that standard then all who attend steeple houses of any kind (baptists, pentecostals etc) aren't Christian either.
I believe you have confused what I said. I never said the Catholic Church wasn't Christian because it is an organization.
QUOTE
Have you escaped the religious system brother?
Certainly. But what does that have to do with my comment that the Roman Catholic Church is not a Christian organization?
On the other hand, have you substituted a subtle legalism for genuine fellowship, in seemingly judging all who attend "steeple houses of any kind" as not genuinely following or obeying Christ? Or have I misunderstood you?
QUOTE (adullam @ May 15 2008, 02:47 AM)
QUOTE (Caneman @ May 14 2008, 11:42 AM)
The Catholic church is for God. The real questions is, are you going to tear apart Jesus Christ's body or support it?
Caneman
Caneman
That depends if you believe the catholic church and the Body of Christ are synonymous. It isn't wrong to separate a catholic from his mother church through a spiritual weaning unto a greater maturity in Christ. Jesus did come to bring a sword!
Maran atha
John
Yes God does send a sword at times to chastise his flock. It was called the protestant reformation. The protestants rebelled against the church because of its excesses. They raged through Europe destroying churches, raping nuns, desecrating sacred things. They sacked Rome, imprisoned the pope and slaughtered and burned for 3 months. Not even the Emporer could restrain them.
In England there is virtually not a single shrine of a Saint left. Even St. Thomas Becket's shrine was destroyed by the iconoclasts.
The church did a lot of soul searching after these events and soon after the Council of Trent introduced a powerful counter-reformation which restored the authority and respect for the church.
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth
A scourge is a particularly severe whip or lash. How could God do that to his own son? But what does God love? His son, or the whip he uses to chastise him with? Shall the whip glory itself over the son?
When God destroyed Israel his son and sent them through sieges, famines and exile at the hands of Assyria and Babylon, who did he love? Israel? Or Assyria and Babylon? They gloated over Israel and mocked the God of Israel. Shall we as protestants do the same when we are just sad remnants of those people who God used to correct his church.
"They feared the Lord, yet served their own gods" -2Kings 17:33
This accurately described the pagan people who re-populated Israel.
And... This accurately describes the spiritual deception and disobedience in so-called "christian" religion today; paying homage outwardly to God and yet, bowing before other shrines. This resembles a mongrel faith...half truth, half error.
This accurately described the pagan people who re-populated Israel.
And... This accurately describes the spiritual deception and disobedience in so-called "christian" religion today; paying homage outwardly to God and yet, bowing before other shrines. This resembles a mongrel faith...half truth, half error.
QUOTE (Here Am I @ May 14 2008, 07:02 PM)
"They feared the Lord, yet served their own gods" -2Kings 17:33
This accurately described the pagan people who re-populated Israel.
And... This accurately describes the spiritual deception and disobedience in so-called "christian" religion today; paying homage outwardly to God and yet, bowing before other shrines. This resembles a mongrel faith...half truth, half error.
This accurately described the pagan people who re-populated Israel.
And... This accurately describes the spiritual deception and disobedience in so-called "christian" religion today; paying homage outwardly to God and yet, bowing before other shrines. This resembles a mongrel faith...half truth, half error.
National Shrine of Mary, Mother of the Church
http://www.mothersshrine.org/
National Shrine of Mary, Help of Christians
http://www.holyhill.com/
Shrine of Mary, Ephesus, Turkey
http://www.sacredsites.com/middle_east/tur...ary_ephesus.htm
Shrines of the two Marys in Zaragoza, Spain
http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/spain/zaragoza.html
Mary, Queen of the Universe Shrine, Orlando, FL
http://www.catholicshrines.net/states/fl1.htm
The Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament
http://www.catholicshrines.net/states/al1.htm
Catholic Shrines-USA
http://www.catholicshrines.net/
Nationl Shrine of Mary, Queen of the Universe
http://www.maryqueenoftheuniverse.org/
The Shrine of Mary Magdalene
http://www.marymagdaleneshrine.org/main.html
Holy Mary Shrine
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/9358/
Holy Hill National Shrine of Mary, Help of Christians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Hill_Nat...p_of_Christians
EDSA Shrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Peace_Quasi-Parish
The Shrine To Mary
http://shrinetomary.com/
http://shrinetomary.com/apparitions.htm
Holy Hill National Shrine of Mary
http://www.pbase.com/rljslick/holy_hill_na..._shrine_of_mary
Holy Hill, National Shrine of Mary Help of Christians, Hubertus, Washington County, WI
http://csumc.wisc.edu/gallery/album25
The Arch of Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary
http://www.archoftriumph.org/message8.html
The Shrine of Mary at Pukekaraka, Otaki, New Zealand
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/s...new_zealand.htm
Marian Shrines in the United States
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/shrines/us.html
What is a visit to a shrine of Mary called?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_visit_..._of_Mary_called
A VIRTUAL PILGRIMAGE TO 10 SHRINES OF MARY
http://www.newsflash.org/2003/05/tl/tl012219.htm
Holy Hill National Shrine of Mary
http://wikimapia.org/510162/
Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception
http://www.nationalshrine.com/site/pp.asp?...TG&b=108035
A Shrine to Mary, Tabernacle of the Most High
http://www.icon.co.za/~host/ngome/
Holy Hill Shrine, Wisconsin
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/usa/wis...n-holy-hill.htm
Shrine of Mary, Queen of Peace
http://www.edsashrine.com/v2/aboutus.php
Catholic Shrines / Statues
http://cgi.ebay.ph/Lot-of-4-Vintage-Cathol...bayphotohosting
Holy Hill National Shrine of Mary
http://www.travelwisconsin.com/item_detail...ne_of_Mary.aspx
Marian Shrine in the Making: Cebu City
http://www.missiomariae.net/
Ailing pope says Mass at French shrine to Mary
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2004/aug/16/ailing_pope_says/
The Shrines of Mary
http://peacecentertours.com/shrines_of_mary.htm
The Subtle Mariolatry of Northwest India
http://www.angelfire.com/ky/dodone/MaryIndia.html
Holy Hill Grotto, National Shrine of Mary, Hubertus
http://www.thebubbler.com/gallery/showphot...o/1205/size/big
Shrine of Mary Queen of Peace revisited
http://www.mb.com.ph/issues/2005/02/27/MTN...5022729554.html
International and National Shrines
http://www.gcatholic.com/churches/data/shrineUS.htm
National Shrine of Mary, Hubertus, WI
http://www.gloria.tv/?video=uxmn0sywjan2hqltnq8i
Holy Hill National Shrine of Mary
http://my-catholic-faith.150m.com/holyhill.html
St. Joseph's Shrine of St. Mary
http://proecclesia.blogspot.com/2008/03/fe...el-3-march.html
St. Mary's Shrine of Our Lady of Fatima
http://www.stmaryonline.com/
The Shrine of Blessed Mary MacKillop, St. Margaret's Church, Roy Bridge
http://www.gaeldom.com/mmk/theshrine.htm
The Miraculous Medal Shrine
http://www.cammonline.org/pagesTours/upper...shrineTour.html
Parish and Shrine Mary Gardens
http://www.mgardens.org/JS-PASMG-MG.html
Our Lady of the Roses,
http://www.roses.org/
QUOTE (Godsword @ May 14 2008, 06:32 PM)
adullam,
True. But I never said a Christian was. I simply disagreed with your statement: "The Catholic church is Christian." In the context of describing an organization, the term "Christian" is supposed to indicate a group of people who share the fundamentals of the Christian faith, without adulteration or corruption in points with implications for the Gospel. The Catholic Church is therefore not "Christian", because it adulterates the faith by adding to and distorting the Gospel, doing so by means of various of its doctrines, which I shall not list here.
I believe you have confused what I said. I never said the Catholic Church wasn't Christian because it is an organization.
Certainly. But what does that have to do with my comment that the Roman Catholic Church is not a Christian organization?
On the other hand, have you substituted a subtle legalism for genuine fellowship, in seemingly judging all who attend "steeple houses of any kind" as not genuinely following or obeying Christ? Or have I misunderstood you?
QUOTE
A Christian is not an organization.
True. But I never said a Christian was. I simply disagreed with your statement: "The Catholic church is Christian." In the context of describing an organization, the term "Christian" is supposed to indicate a group of people who share the fundamentals of the Christian faith, without adulteration or corruption in points with implications for the Gospel. The Catholic Church is therefore not "Christian", because it adulterates the faith by adding to and distorting the Gospel, doing so by means of various of its doctrines, which I shall not list here.
QUOTE
If you want to judge by that standard then all who attend steeple houses of any kind (baptists, pentecostals etc) aren't Christian either.
I believe you have confused what I said. I never said the Catholic Church wasn't Christian because it is an organization.
QUOTE
Have you escaped the religious system brother?
Certainly. But what does that have to do with my comment that the Roman Catholic Church is not a Christian organization?
On the other hand, have you substituted a subtle legalism for genuine fellowship, in seemingly judging all who attend "steeple houses of any kind" as not genuinely following or obeying Christ? Or have I misunderstood you?
What I meant was if you live in a glass house then don't throw stones. It is hypocritical to judge a system as evil if you doing the same under a different flag. A believer who goes to a sunday building church shouldn't condemn another believer who is doing the same.
John
QUOTE (excubitor @ May 14 2008, 07:01 PM)
QUOTE (adullam @ May 15 2008, 02:47 AM)
QUOTE (Caneman @ May 14 2008, 11:42 AM)
The Catholic church is for God. The real questions is, are you going to tear apart Jesus Christ's body or support it?
Caneman
Caneman
That depends if you believe the catholic church and the Body of Christ are synonymous. It isn't wrong to separate a catholic from his mother church through a spiritual weaning unto a greater maturity in Christ. Jesus did come to bring a sword!
Maran atha
John
Yes God does send a sword at times to chastise his flock. It was called the protestant reformation. The protestants rebelled against the church because of its excesses. They raged through Europe destroying churches, raping nuns, desecrating sacred things. They sacked Rome, imprisoned the pope and slaughtered and burned for 3 months. Not even the Emporer could restrain them.
In England there is virtually not a single shrine of a Saint left. Even St. Thomas Becket's shrine was destroyed by the iconoclasts.
The church did a lot of soul searching after these events and soon after the Council of Trent introduced a powerful counter-reformation which restored the authority and respect for the church.
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth
A scourge is a particularly severe whip or lash. How could God do that to his own son? But what does God love? His son, or the whip he uses to chastise him with? Shall the whip glory itself over the son?
When God destroyed Israel his son and sent them through sieges, famines and exile at the hands of Assyria and Babylon, who did he love? Israel? Or Assyria and Babylon? They gloated over Israel and mocked the God of Israel. Shall we as protestants do the same when we are just sad remnants of those people who God used to correct his church.
Hey Caneman, the sword is a spiritual one that divides those who are faithful from those who aren't. I'm never thinking along fleshly lines...and I forget that it can be taken that way. Sorry for the lack of clarity.
John
How do you know that it was not Jesus will to lavish attention upon his mother and the other saints of the Bible in these shrines. You are putting your own value judgement on all of this. You show us a whole list of shrines and the inference is look how evil this all is. However you do not prove or show how or why it is evil. On what authority and basis do you pronounce the shrines evil.
When Jesus hang on the cross he deliberately diverted attention from his own suffering and directed attention to his mother. This was his final act before he died. "Behold your mother" was virtually his last words.
So Christians from then on "Behold their mother" in shrines everywhere according to Jesus's own final words. And YOU say "How evil". I don't see anything evil about it.
What is the difference between reading stories of the virgin birth as recorded in the Bible from seeing them depicted in statues and artwork? Nothing. I could be overcome reading about Mary in my Bible, weeping and emotional and you would NOT conclude that I am worshipping the Mary of the Bible. But when the very same Mary is depicted in Statue, song and story telling you say that it is idolatory. Especially when you see some old Italian grandmothers weeping and emotional because they have travelled on a long pilgrimadge to see the shrine.
Statues and shrines are simply the method of storytelling which was used before people could read and write. You might think that these things are not necessary but then you can read. How heartless to rob the poor and illiterate of one of their beautiful ways of learning about the saints, Mary and the life of Christ by calling all of their shrines "pagan" and idolatorous. What an insult.
When Jesus hang on the cross he deliberately diverted attention from his own suffering and directed attention to his mother. This was his final act before he died. "Behold your mother" was virtually his last words.
So Christians from then on "Behold their mother" in shrines everywhere according to Jesus's own final words. And YOU say "How evil". I don't see anything evil about it.
What is the difference between reading stories of the virgin birth as recorded in the Bible from seeing them depicted in statues and artwork? Nothing. I could be overcome reading about Mary in my Bible, weeping and emotional and you would NOT conclude that I am worshipping the Mary of the Bible. But when the very same Mary is depicted in Statue, song and story telling you say that it is idolatory. Especially when you see some old Italian grandmothers weeping and emotional because they have travelled on a long pilgrimadge to see the shrine.
Statues and shrines are simply the method of storytelling which was used before people could read and write. You might think that these things are not necessary but then you can read. How heartless to rob the poor and illiterate of one of their beautiful ways of learning about the saints, Mary and the life of Christ by calling all of their shrines "pagan" and idolatorous. What an insult.
from what i have seen when it comes to our members who were called out of the catholic church our members have gotten rid of their symbols like picturs of the pope crosses and little statues of mary and jesus
i saw this for my self when i was in the philippines in jan this year for the three weeks i spent my partner has just planted four new bible study groups and these are new converts when i went along with my partner to meet the new converts i saw pictures of jesus and sevral statues of mary the husband said to me that they plan to burn what they have brought
adullam is right to what he said but i am going to say this who are we to judge if god calls a person out do we say to the ones god is calling to him self stay wear you are or do we ecnourage the ones god has called out to denounce everything that has been passed on to them and leave to wear they settle among us who can walk with them support them and encourage them
god called me out a long time a go and he did this with my partner just because we meet in a building does this give the ones who have home churches the right to judge us that meet in a building ? we have a name for our new church its called dunamis living praise
John 13 - 35 by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye have love for one another
with out love for our brethren all the gifts and powers are meaningless and worthless
all our doctrinal orthodxy and understanding of the scriptures are of no value with out love though i understand the great mysteries things like the mystery of the godhead the sovereignty of god or the responsability of man if i dont have love their worthless if i am just getting into peoples faces and working to make them see and believe my side my doctrinal purity profits me nothing its all worthless with out love
what you should be asking is this do i love my brethren who stick to other denominations
i have a lot off catholic friends wear i am living know sometimes we dont see eye to eye but it does not mean it gives me or my catholic friends the right to say your not a true christian i do get into heated debates with my catholic friends but this is just the way we are when we get together but when its time to go to our homes we all get together and forgive each other we hold hands and pray always going to our homes feeling peace full
heck one of my friends is a catholic his wife goes to an anglican church they have 5 daughters and not once has my friend said to his wife you should leave the anglican church my friend supports her this week my friends wife is speaking in sevral churches my mate likes to go to the catholic church near wear he is living his wife takes the car as she has to leave early its an hours drive to wear her church is she is very charasmatic my mate is more traditional
god bless from damo
i saw this for my self when i was in the philippines in jan this year for the three weeks i spent my partner has just planted four new bible study groups and these are new converts when i went along with my partner to meet the new converts i saw pictures of jesus and sevral statues of mary the husband said to me that they plan to burn what they have brought
adullam is right to what he said but i am going to say this who are we to judge if god calls a person out do we say to the ones god is calling to him self stay wear you are or do we ecnourage the ones god has called out to denounce everything that has been passed on to them and leave to wear they settle among us who can walk with them support them and encourage them
god called me out a long time a go and he did this with my partner just because we meet in a building does this give the ones who have home churches the right to judge us that meet in a building ? we have a name for our new church its called dunamis living praise
John 13 - 35 by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye have love for one another
with out love for our brethren all the gifts and powers are meaningless and worthless
all our doctrinal orthodxy and understanding of the scriptures are of no value with out love though i understand the great mysteries things like the mystery of the godhead the sovereignty of god or the responsability of man if i dont have love their worthless if i am just getting into peoples faces and working to make them see and believe my side my doctrinal purity profits me nothing its all worthless with out love
what you should be asking is this do i love my brethren who stick to other denominations
i have a lot off catholic friends wear i am living know sometimes we dont see eye to eye but it does not mean it gives me or my catholic friends the right to say your not a true christian i do get into heated debates with my catholic friends but this is just the way we are when we get together but when its time to go to our homes we all get together and forgive each other we hold hands and pray always going to our homes feeling peace full
heck one of my friends is a catholic his wife goes to an anglican church they have 5 daughters and not once has my friend said to his wife you should leave the anglican church my friend supports her this week my friends wife is speaking in sevral churches my mate likes to go to the catholic church near wear he is living his wife takes the car as she has to leave early its an hours drive to wear her church is she is very charasmatic my mate is more traditional
god bless from damo
adullam,
Many, if not most, Protestant churches, though imperfect, are not apostate or cultic, as is the Roman Catholic Church. I have no idea why you seem to think that attending a "Sunday building church" has anything to do with the anti-Christian, pagan, and apostate doctrines and practices of the Roman Catholic Church. Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist or Seventh-Day Baptist, or someone who believes that the church should gather on Saturday because it is the seventh day of the week, and therefore the true Sabbath?
QUOTE
What I meant was if you live in a glass house then don't throw stones. It is hypocritical to judge a system as evil if you [are] doing the same under a different flag. A believer who goes to a sunday building church shouldn't condemn another believer who is doing the same.
Many, if not most, Protestant churches, though imperfect, are not apostate or cultic, as is the Roman Catholic Church. I have no idea why you seem to think that attending a "Sunday building church" has anything to do with the anti-Christian, pagan, and apostate doctrines and practices of the Roman Catholic Church. Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist or Seventh-Day Baptist, or someone who believes that the church should gather on Saturday because it is the seventh day of the week, and therefore the true Sabbath?
excubitor,
Because that is not consistent with His character, nor God the Father's, as evidenced throughout the Bible. Name ONE place in the Bible where God commands or even condones shrines to any "saint" of the Bible, or to anyone, for that matter. I can name one place where God the Father fairly clearly and powerfully rejected such "shrines" - recall the Mount of Transfiguration, where Peter (the supposed "first Pope") gets all excited at having seen Moses and Elijah with Jesus, and proclaims that they should build three "tabernacles" (which would effectively function as "shrines") - one for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. Peter, supposedly the first "Pope", has the very first brainstorm for building shrines, and proposes that three be built - one in honor of Jesus, one in honor of Moses, and one in honor of Elijah. Now, if shrines were Jesus' will "to lavish attention upon his mother and the other saints of the Bible", surely it would also be God the Father's will as well - but God the Father's response to Peter's suggestion was to quickly and powerfully REJECT that suggestion, by speaking to them out of the cloud in a thundering voice, " 'This is My beloved Son - hear Him!' ", and then having only Jesus appear before them, with Moses and Elijah out of the picture.
It's so obvious it shouldn't require "proof". Shrines to human beings, or even angels, are so obviously contrary to God's character and will that there should be no question that they are evil. But since some people are deluded or self-deluding, my mention of what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration should suffice as proof that shrines are not God's will, and therefore are evil.
So? By that same reasoning, you should accept the Apostle JOHN as the first "Pope", since part of Jesus' "last words" on the cross was to say to John, "Behold your mother", regarding Mary; and to Mary, "Behold your son", regarding John. If Mary is the "Queen of Heaven" (a pagan title, actually), then surely by your reasoning above John is the "prince of Heaven" (whereas Jesus is "King of Kings", of course). It's amazing to me that anyone could actually try to build such a significant teaching out of such flimsy evidence and reasoning. Besides, Jesus didn't "direct attention to His mother" - the "attention diverting" also involved the Apostle John. Attention was "diverted" by Jesus equally to Mary and to the Apostle John, because equal statements were made to and about them by Jesus. But the RCC only focuses on Mary, because it suits their purposes (exalting Mary). And, was Jesus "deliberately diverting attention from His own suffering" when He spoke with the thief on the cross? Or was He merely responding to the situation?
And, this issue of Jesus giving John to Mary as her son, in His place, and Mary to John as John's mother, doesn't necessarily mean Mary had no other children living of her own. Mary, even having other children of her own, would have experienced the loss of Jesus, her firstborn son, deeply, and her relationship with Jesus was likely a bit different than it was with her other children - Jesus being very perceptive, gentle, loving, etc.. John the Apostle was the "disciple whom Jesus loved", and so likely would have shared many of Jesus' characteristics in this regard, and would have made a very good "replacement" to take Jesus' place in Mary's life. And apparently John's mother had died, and so taking care of Mary would heal part of his heart, as well. It would also seem that John was single, or likely had no children, whereas Jesus' brothers and sisters all likely were married and had children, and so it was a mercy on Jesus' part to have John take care of Mary - Mary would not feel she was being a burden to her children's families, and would have a more personal and attentive relationship with John (she would be less of an "afterthought" in the scheme of things in John's house), and John would finally have a mother-figure to care for and be a son to. No more, no less. Certainly Jesus' act of compassion and mercy on the cross in "unitiing" John and Mary as son and mother doesn't suggest that Jesus is exalting either one of them.
Are there also shrines to the Apostle John, where Christians from then on can, "Behold their son"? Since when does Jesus' words to John the Apostle apply to the Church in general? Besides, the effect is evil in shifting the focus from Jesus to another. And the degree to which this has been done for Mary within the Roman Catholic Church bears witness to its evil nature.
Well, those "depictions" in statues and artwork are fine, except when they serve to exalt the wrong person, which they do in the case of shrines which are not to Jesus (which the VAST majority of Roman Catholic shrines are not). If one were to read only the stories of the virgin birth in the Bible, and one were to always, in reading those stories, make the focus Mary, THEN that would be comparable to Marian shrines, and would likewise be evil.
Because it is, and because the "devotion" reflected in erecting multitudes of costly shrines to Mary bears witness to something far closer to worship than does merely being overcome by emotion reading about Mary in the Bible. (For that matter, I find it hard to imagine anyone could be overcome with emotion reading about Mary in the Bible - there is almost nothing written in the Bible about her; and the only possible portion which might stir emotion is the story of her response of faith to being told she will bear the Messiah, and that's impressive, but not something that should move one to tears.) Marian devotion in the Roman Catholic Church, as partially evidenced in Marian shrines, exceeds being emotionally moved by reading about Mary in the Bible like the stars exceed the birds in distance from the ground.
So, why didn't they just stay at home and read about Mary in the Bible?
Let's say that is true. Now explain to me why the VAST majority of shrines in the Roman Catholic Church are to Mary, or to other "saints", rather than to Jesus - are the stories about Mary and the other saints that much more important than the stories about Jesus?
Baloney, and I despise your attempt at pretending to be offended. "What an insult". Why don't you try to explain why it is that those "beautiful ways" of learning about the saints, Mary and the life of Christ almost never deal with THE LIFE OF CHRIST. Maybe you can explain why the VAST majority of shrines, which you propose are "necessary" for the "poor and illiterate" to learn about the saints, Mary, and the life of Christ, almost ALWAYS are shrines to MARY. If what you say about the "necessity" of shrines is true (which I don't grant), then even more it proves that Mary is more important in the Roman Catholic Church than Jesus is. On the other hand, if shrines are not "necessary" in order to teach the poor and illiterate (and don't even help all that much), then shrines can only be idolatrous exaltations of the saints and Mary (considering that shrines to Jesus are so very, very rare). Either way, shrines betray the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is against Jesus and God.
QUOTE
How do you know that it was not Jesus' will to lavish attention upon his mother and the other saints of the Bible in these shrines?
Because that is not consistent with His character, nor God the Father's, as evidenced throughout the Bible. Name ONE place in the Bible where God commands or even condones shrines to any "saint" of the Bible, or to anyone, for that matter. I can name one place where God the Father fairly clearly and powerfully rejected such "shrines" - recall the Mount of Transfiguration, where Peter (the supposed "first Pope") gets all excited at having seen Moses and Elijah with Jesus, and proclaims that they should build three "tabernacles" (which would effectively function as "shrines") - one for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. Peter, supposedly the first "Pope", has the very first brainstorm for building shrines, and proposes that three be built - one in honor of Jesus, one in honor of Moses, and one in honor of Elijah. Now, if shrines were Jesus' will "to lavish attention upon his mother and the other saints of the Bible", surely it would also be God the Father's will as well - but God the Father's response to Peter's suggestion was to quickly and powerfully REJECT that suggestion, by speaking to them out of the cloud in a thundering voice, " 'This is My beloved Son - hear Him!' ", and then having only Jesus appear before them, with Moses and Elijah out of the picture.
QUOTE
You are putting your own value judgement on all of this. You show us a whole list of shrines and the inference is look how evil this all is. However you do not prove or show how or why it is evil. On what authority and basis do you pronounce the shrines evil?
It's so obvious it shouldn't require "proof". Shrines to human beings, or even angels, are so obviously contrary to God's character and will that there should be no question that they are evil. But since some people are deluded or self-deluding, my mention of what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration should suffice as proof that shrines are not God's will, and therefore are evil.
QUOTE
When Jesus hung on the cross he deliberately diverted attention from his own suffering and directed attention to his mother. This was his final act before he died. "Behold your mother" was virtually his last words.
So? By that same reasoning, you should accept the Apostle JOHN as the first "Pope", since part of Jesus' "last words" on the cross was to say to John, "Behold your mother", regarding Mary; and to Mary, "Behold your son", regarding John. If Mary is the "Queen of Heaven" (a pagan title, actually), then surely by your reasoning above John is the "prince of Heaven" (whereas Jesus is "King of Kings", of course). It's amazing to me that anyone could actually try to build such a significant teaching out of such flimsy evidence and reasoning. Besides, Jesus didn't "direct attention to His mother" - the "attention diverting" also involved the Apostle John. Attention was "diverted" by Jesus equally to Mary and to the Apostle John, because equal statements were made to and about them by Jesus. But the RCC only focuses on Mary, because it suits their purposes (exalting Mary). And, was Jesus "deliberately diverting attention from His own suffering" when He spoke with the thief on the cross? Or was He merely responding to the situation?
And, this issue of Jesus giving John to Mary as her son, in His place, and Mary to John as John's mother, doesn't necessarily mean Mary had no other children living of her own. Mary, even having other children of her own, would have experienced the loss of Jesus, her firstborn son, deeply, and her relationship with Jesus was likely a bit different than it was with her other children - Jesus being very perceptive, gentle, loving, etc.. John the Apostle was the "disciple whom Jesus loved", and so likely would have shared many of Jesus' characteristics in this regard, and would have made a very good "replacement" to take Jesus' place in Mary's life. And apparently John's mother had died, and so taking care of Mary would heal part of his heart, as well. It would also seem that John was single, or likely had no children, whereas Jesus' brothers and sisters all likely were married and had children, and so it was a mercy on Jesus' part to have John take care of Mary - Mary would not feel she was being a burden to her children's families, and would have a more personal and attentive relationship with John (she would be less of an "afterthought" in the scheme of things in John's house), and John would finally have a mother-figure to care for and be a son to. No more, no less. Certainly Jesus' act of compassion and mercy on the cross in "unitiing" John and Mary as son and mother doesn't suggest that Jesus is exalting either one of them.
QUOTE
So Christians from then on "Behold their mother" in shrines everywhere according to Jesus's own final words. And YOU say "How evil". I don't see anything evil about it.
Are there also shrines to the Apostle John, where Christians from then on can, "Behold their son"? Since when does Jesus' words to John the Apostle apply to the Church in general? Besides, the effect is evil in shifting the focus from Jesus to another. And the degree to which this has been done for Mary within the Roman Catholic Church bears witness to its evil nature.
QUOTE
What is the difference between reading stories of the virgin birth as recorded in the Bible from seeing them depicted in statues and artwork? Nothing.
Well, those "depictions" in statues and artwork are fine, except when they serve to exalt the wrong person, which they do in the case of shrines which are not to Jesus (which the VAST majority of Roman Catholic shrines are not). If one were to read only the stories of the virgin birth in the Bible, and one were to always, in reading those stories, make the focus Mary, THEN that would be comparable to Marian shrines, and would likewise be evil.
QUOTE
I could be overcome reading about Mary in my Bible, weeping and emotional and you would NOT conclude that I am worshipping the Mary of the Bible. But when the very same Mary is depicted in Statue, song and story telling you say that it is idolatory.
Because it is, and because the "devotion" reflected in erecting multitudes of costly shrines to Mary bears witness to something far closer to worship than does merely being overcome by emotion reading about Mary in the Bible. (For that matter, I find it hard to imagine anyone could be overcome with emotion reading about Mary in the Bible - there is almost nothing written in the Bible about her; and the only possible portion which might stir emotion is the story of her response of faith to being told she will bear the Messiah, and that's impressive, but not something that should move one to tears.) Marian devotion in the Roman Catholic Church, as partially evidenced in Marian shrines, exceeds being emotionally moved by reading about Mary in the Bible like the stars exceed the birds in distance from the ground.
QUOTE
Especially when you see some old Italian grandmothers weeping and emotional because they have travelled on a long pilgrimadge to see the shrine.
So, why didn't they just stay at home and read about Mary in the Bible?
QUOTE
Statues and shrines are simply the method of storytelling which was used before people could read and write.
Let's say that is true. Now explain to me why the VAST majority of shrines in the Roman Catholic Church are to Mary, or to other "saints", rather than to Jesus - are the stories about Mary and the other saints that much more important than the stories about Jesus?
QUOTE
You might think that these things are not necessary but then you can read. How heartless to rob the poor and illiterate of one of their beautiful ways of learning about the saints, Mary and the life of Christ by calling all of their shrines "pagan" and idolatorous. What an insult.
Baloney, and I despise your attempt at pretending to be offended. "What an insult". Why don't you try to explain why it is that those "beautiful ways" of learning about the saints, Mary and the life of Christ almost never deal with THE LIFE OF CHRIST. Maybe you can explain why the VAST majority of shrines, which you propose are "necessary" for the "poor and illiterate" to learn about the saints, Mary, and the life of Christ, almost ALWAYS are shrines to MARY. If what you say about the "necessity" of shrines is true (which I don't grant), then even more it proves that Mary is more important in the Roman Catholic Church than Jesus is. On the other hand, if shrines are not "necessary" in order to teach the poor and illiterate (and don't even help all that much), then shrines can only be idolatrous exaltations of the saints and Mary (considering that shrines to Jesus are so very, very rare). Either way, shrines betray the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is against Jesus and God.
I just want to know why there is a need for middle man, when confessing my wrongs unto God.. He already knows anyway.
seriously... confessing to a priest is definitely not going to happen any day of the week.
The Catholic church .. wow .. an onslaught of power obsessed individuals, with counterfeit ideas and doctrine for entrance into a man made heaven-in-a-box.
P.s. Im not atheist either. Just dont understand the Catholic Church, and unworthy track record
seriously... confessing to a priest is definitely not going to happen any day of the week.
The Catholic church .. wow .. an onslaught of power obsessed individuals, with counterfeit ideas and doctrine for entrance into a man made heaven-in-a-box.
P.s. Im not atheist either. Just dont understand the Catholic Church, and unworthy track record
QUOTE (melloinfinity @ May 15 2008, 02:15 PM)
I just want to know why there is a need for middle man, when confessing my wrongs unto God.. He already knows anyway.
seriously... confessing to a priest is definitely not going to happen any day of the week.
The Catholic church .. wow .. an onslaught of power obsessed individuals, with counterfeit ideas and doctrine for entrance into a man made heaven-in-a-box.
P.s. Im not atheist either. Just dont understand the Catholic Church, and unworthy track record
seriously... confessing to a priest is definitely not going to happen any day of the week.
The Catholic church .. wow .. an onslaught of power obsessed individuals, with counterfeit ideas and doctrine for entrance into a man made heaven-in-a-box.
P.s. Im not atheist either. Just dont understand the Catholic Church, and unworthy track record
Have you ever read the Catholic explanation on the sacrament of penance (confession)
Here is a link http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
I bet you haven't. Most people ignorantly reject Catholic teaching because it doesn's "seem right". In fact this is simply a reaction to biases and prejudices built up over a lifetime.
The sacrament of penance (confession) comes directly from this passage in John
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them (the apostles), and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained
But hang on Jesus. Why do we need a middle man? Why can't the people just go directly to you? Why are you giving this power to the apostles? Errrrrr, Ahhhhh. Hmmmmm. Not sure. Ask Jesus. Don't ask me.
Now the next programmed response from the gainsayer is to explain away the scripture with an "Oh well what this is saying is . . . . " or " in the original greek the word for remit is . . . . "
So you tell me. What does this verse mean if it is not giving support to the catholic and eastern orthodox practice of penance? If normal pattern ensues, the scripture will be rendered to none effect and becomes a meaningless platitude. The protestant will then trumpet about Sola Scriptura. What a joke.
to excubitor
yes that true excubitor and is your mary going to punish us ?
i regect everything that the catholic church teaches i even regect the doctrines you hold onto so is your mary going to beat me sensless should i openly cry for mercy to your mary and tell her how foolish i have been hay i have an extension cord your mary can use what time do i expect a viset from mary excubitor ?
god bless from damo
QUOTE (Godsword @ May 14 2008, 09:59 PM)
[font="Times New Roman"][size=3]excubitor,
Well, those "depictions" in statues and artwork are fine, except when they serve to exalt the wrong person, which they do in the case of shrines which are not to Jesus (which the VAST majority of Roman Catholic shrines are not). If one were to read only the stories of the virgin birth in the Bible, and one were to always, in reading those stories, make the focus Mary, THEN that would be comparable to Marian shrines, and would likewise be evil.
QUOTE
What is the difference between reading stories of the virgin birth as recorded in the Bible from seeing them depicted in statues and artwork? Nothing.
Well, those "depictions" in statues and artwork are fine, except when they serve to exalt the wrong person, which they do in the case of shrines which are not to Jesus (which the VAST majority of Roman Catholic shrines are not). If one were to read only the stories of the virgin birth in the Bible, and one were to always, in reading those stories, make the focus Mary, THEN that would be comparable to Marian shrines, and would likewise be evil.
Here is one of the problems with conversations like this. You make a comment and present it as fact, yet you have absolutely no facts to back up your claim, other than your opinion. Every single Catholic Church has as its central focus in Art, structure, and visual attention towards Jesus. You walk into ANY Catholic Church and the single most prominent figure is Jesus Christ. BAR NONE. In our Cathedral is a wall of art work depicting many of our church fathers and saints. 1000's of the stain glass windows depict the lives of different saints, all telling a story. But the single most re-occurring focus in the Catholic Church through the entire world is Jesus Christ. The number of times Jesus is presented in a Catholic Church is so overwhelming compared to any other figure in History that your claim falls on the absurd. Your implications are quite simply just wrong.
God Bless,
K.D.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
James 5:16
I notice a lot of anti-semitism and anti-Catholic sentiment on here from time to time. Mocking the Virgin Mary as damo 7 did is a bit much to say the very least.
Is there anyone here that thinks Jesus did not love His Mom?
James 5:16
I notice a lot of anti-semitism and anti-Catholic sentiment on here from time to time. Mocking the Virgin Mary as damo 7 did is a bit much to say the very least.
Is there anyone here that thinks Jesus did not love His Mom?
Jack777,
No, but there are many here who think that Jesus considers it an abomination for people to pray to His mother, and to worship her and exalt her to His and God's place.
QUOTE
Is there anyone here that thinks Jesus did not love His Mom?
No, but there are many here who think that Jesus considers it an abomination for people to pray to His mother, and to worship her and exalt her to His and God's place.
Prayer, worship, adoration, praise and veneration are reserved for the One True Living God....
...not to a relic, shrine, dead saint, or Queen of Heaven (See Jeremiah 44 - RCC "Mary".)
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...19108&st=18
Beware of false religions that you may not be deceived.
Read the "whole" Bible to understand why this is an abomination to the Lord God and what He expects of His people.
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/index.htm
...not to a relic, shrine, dead saint, or Queen of Heaven (See Jeremiah 44 - RCC "Mary".)
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...19108&st=18
Beware of false religions that you may not be deceived.
Read the "whole" Bible to understand why this is an abomination to the Lord God and what He expects of His people.
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/index.htm
Thanks, I have read the "whole" Bible. How many posters here claim to worship Mary?
KansasDad,
Ooooo, you're a slippery one, aren't you. Lest your attempted obfuscation obfuscate anyone, I have to point out that I have been dealing with shrines, not with general artwork or whatever in church buildings. If a shrine is located in a church building, then that still "counts" as a shrine. The key point is that a "shrine" is a place specially set apart, whether in a church building or out, for "special adoration" or "special contemplation" of the person to whom the shrine is "devoted". A painting on a wall in, or a statue in a hallway of, a church does not count, as I'm sure you are well aware. A nice attempt at diversion, though.
Here's some evidence in support of my contention that RCC shrines are VASTLY more devoted, in number, to Mary than to Jesus:
Marian Shrines in the United States (I counted 183 in this list alone);
Shrines to the Virgin Mary (Wikipedia);
Marian shrines (Wikipedia).
Now, I've searched, and I've searched, and I've searched some more, but I can't find any reference anywhere to any shrine to Jesus "authorized" or promoted by the Roman Catholic Church. I have seen where some claim that the RCC church buildings themselves are "shrines to Jesus" (specifically, the church tabernacles, I believe), but that's just bogus reasoning, because Marian shrines are of a different nature, where those "poor and illiterate" people can come and learn about the one to whom the shrine is devoted, whereas a church tabernacle is a place of worship. In terms of shrines, in the RCC, Mary by far surpasses Jesus in number and devotion. And that was my claim, which you have failed to refute, while I have provided evidence in support of that claim.
Perhaps you can provide a list of RCC shrines to Jesus, like those 116 listed under "Marian Shrines" in Wikipedia, or like the following which are listed under "Shrines to the Virgin Mary" (only some are repeats of those listed under "Marian Shrines"):
Whew. Them thar's a lot of shrines to Mary, regardless of how many there might be to Jesus. But I am fairly certain you won't be able to find many at all to Jesus, because the whole focus in Catholicism is essentially on Mary, either in conjuction with Jesus, or basically independently of Jesus, as a "stand-alone" goddess.
By the way, I live "right next door" (in a neighboring city) to the University of Notre Dame (located in South Bend, IN). That university itself is named in honor of Mary (the "Dame"). There are two shrines that I know of at ND - one is the football stadium, which is overlooked by the giant mural on the 10-story or more library of Jesus; the other is a shrine to Mary called "The Grotto", which is relatively quite popular, even "famous". Here's a brief description of Notre Dame's "Grotto":
ND is a hotbed of Marian veneration, and it's sickening. I doubt there are many who are "poor and illiterate" at Notre Dame, by the way.
Ooooo, you're a slippery one, aren't you. Lest your attempted obfuscation obfuscate anyone, I have to point out that I have been dealing with shrines, not with general artwork or whatever in church buildings. If a shrine is located in a church building, then that still "counts" as a shrine. The key point is that a "shrine" is a place specially set apart, whether in a church building or out, for "special adoration" or "special contemplation" of the person to whom the shrine is "devoted". A painting on a wall in, or a statue in a hallway of, a church does not count, as I'm sure you are well aware. A nice attempt at diversion, though.
Here's some evidence in support of my contention that RCC shrines are VASTLY more devoted, in number, to Mary than to Jesus:
Marian Shrines in the United States (I counted 183 in this list alone);
Shrines to the Virgin Mary (Wikipedia);
Marian shrines (Wikipedia).
Now, I've searched, and I've searched, and I've searched some more, but I can't find any reference anywhere to any shrine to Jesus "authorized" or promoted by the Roman Catholic Church. I have seen where some claim that the RCC church buildings themselves are "shrines to Jesus" (specifically, the church tabernacles, I believe), but that's just bogus reasoning, because Marian shrines are of a different nature, where those "poor and illiterate" people can come and learn about the one to whom the shrine is devoted, whereas a church tabernacle is a place of worship. In terms of shrines, in the RCC, Mary by far surpasses Jesus in number and devotion. And that was my claim, which you have failed to refute, while I have provided evidence in support of that claim.
Perhaps you can provide a list of RCC shrines to Jesus, like those 116 listed under "Marian Shrines" in Wikipedia, or like the following which are listed under "Shrines to the Virgin Mary" (only some are repeats of those listed under "Marian Shrines"):
QUOTE
An extensive list of shrines by country is provided in the following sections. Some major shrines considered most significant for their apparitions and miracles are listed in this section:
Loreto, Italy
Our Lady of Fatima in Fatima, Portugal
Our Lady of Good Success, Madrid, Spain
Our Lady of Lebanon, Harissa, Lebanon
Our Lady of La Salette in La Salette, France
The Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, Mexico
The Basilica of Our Lady, Queen of Ireland in Knock, Ireland
The Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar, Zaragoza, Aragón, Spain
Black Madonna of Częstochowa in Częstochowa, Poland
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes in Lourdes, France
The Chapel of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal in Paris, France
Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary of Orani, Bataan Philippines
National Shrine of Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary of La Naval, Santo Domingo, Quezon City Philippines
National Shrine of Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary of Manaoag, Manaoag, Pangasinan Philippines
Mary, Queen of Peace Shrine, EDSA, Ortigas, Quezon City Philippines
Shrine of Our Lady of Peace and Good Voyage, Antipolo City Philippines
Our Lady of the Poon Bato, Botolan, Zambales, Philippines
The Minor Basilica of the Immaculate Conception, Manila, Philippines
The Basilica Minore of the Our Lady of Piat, Piat, Cagayan, Philippines
The Minor Basilica of Our Lady of Caysasay, Taal, Batangas, Philippines
Basilica of Our Lady of Good Health in India.
Our Lady of Meritxell, Andorra
Our Lady of San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, Mexico
Our Lady of Montserrat, Catalonia, Spain
Shrine of the Virgin of Ocotlán, Ocotlán, Tlaxcala, Mexico
Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn, Vilnius, Lithuania
Our Lady of the Rosary of Chiquinquirá, Venezuela
Our Lady of Salambao, Obando, Bulacan, Philippines
Basilica of Our Lady of La Vang, La Vang, Vietnam
Our Lady of Walsingham, Norfolk, England.
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Our Lady of Peace (Queen of Peace) in Međugorje, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Brazil
Basilica of the National Shrine of Our Lady of Aparecida, Aparecida. The largest Marian shrine in the world, as well as the most popular pilgrimage site in Latin America. It is dedicated to Our Lady of Aparecida, Brazil's patron saint.
Canada
Our Lady of Combermere in Ontario, Canada
Queen of The Holy Rosary Shrine in Ajax, Ontario, Canada. www.holyrosaryshrine.org
China
Our Lady of China in Donglu, China
The Virgin of Sheshan, Help of Christians in Sheshan, China
Our Lady of Bliss near Guiyang, China
The Church of Our Lady of the Rosary in Longtian, China
The Church of Our Lady of Lourdes in Qingyang, China
Cyprus
Kykkos Monastery
Ecuador
Our Lady of the Swan (Nuestra Señora del Cisne), in El Cisne, Loja, Ecuador.
Egypt
Our Lady of Zeiton, apparitions of Virgin Mary on the Coptic Orthodox Church.
France
Our Lady of La Salette in La Salette, France
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes in Lourdes, France
The Chapel of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal in Paris, France
Greece
Our Lady of Tinos, Tinos Island, Greece's patron saint.
Autonomous Monastic State of the Holy Mountain, Mount Athos, Greece,the garden of the Mother of God being out of bounds to all other women.
Holy Land
The Basilica of the Annunciation, in Nazareth.
The Church of the Dormition of Our Lady on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem.
The Church of the Tomb of the Virgin Mary in the garden of Gethsemane, in Jerusalem
The Milk Grotto Church of Virgin Mary in Bethlehem
India
Malankara Orthodox St. Mary's Church, also known as Cheriapally (Little Church) in Kottayam, Kerala, India; originally built in 1579Basilica of Our Lady of Good Health Vailankanni, Tamil Nadu, India
Poondi Matha Bascillica, Poondi ,Tamil Nadu, India
National Shrine of Our Lady of Ransom, Vallarpadam, Cochin ,Kerala, India
Our Lady of Snows Basilica, Tuticorin,Tamil Nadu, India
Our Lady of Remedies, Vasai,Maharashtra, India
Our Lady of Bandle, Chinsurah, West Bengal, India
Ireland
The Basilica of Our Lady, Queen of Ireland in Knock, Ireland
Italy
Shrine of the Holy House, Loreto
Holy Mary of Third Millennium at Three Fountains, Rome[1]
Sanctuary of Macereto
Our Lady of the Rosary of Pompei, Pompei
Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, Rome, home of the Salus Populi Romani icon.
Japan
Our Lady of Akita Akita, Japan
Lebanon
Our Lady of Bechouat, a Marian sanctuary in the Beqaa Valley of Lebanon.
Our Lady of Bekaa, a Marian shrine located in Zahle, Lebanon with panoramic views of the Beqaa Valley.
Our Lady of the Waterfall, a Marian shrine in Jezzine, Lebanon
Our Lady of Lebanon, a Marian shrine in Harissa, Lebanon
Our Lady of Light, a Marian chapel in Centre Ville, Beirut in Lebanon
Our Lady of Lourdes Monument, Ain Ebel, Lebanon
Our Lady of Mantara, a Marian shrine in Maghdouché, Lebanon
Our Lady of Nourieh, a Marian shrine and monastery atop Theoprosopon in Hamat, Lebanon.
Our Lady of the Wind, Enfeh, Lebanon
Lithuania
Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn in Vilnius, Lithuania
Malta
Our Lady of Consecration, Girgenti, Siġġiewi, Malta
Our Lady of Borg in-Nadur, Borġ in-Nadur, Qajjenza, Birżebbuġa, Malta
Our Lady of Mount Carmel Sanctuary, Valletta,Malta
Old Parish Church of Our Lady of Sorrows, Birżebbuġa, Malta
Parish Church of the Anuciation, Tarxien, Malta
Parish Church of the Anuciation, Balzan, Malta
Parish Church of Maria Regina, Marsa, Malta
Parish Church of Monte Carmele, Fgura, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Fatima, Pietà, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Loreto, Għajnsielem, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Lourdes, Paola, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Sorrows, San Pawl il-Baħar, Malta
Parish Church of the Sacred Heart of Mary, Burmaradd, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Għaxaq, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Gudja, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Mġarr, Malta
Rotonda of St. Mary, Mosta, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Mqabba, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Qrendi, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Birkirkara, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Attard, Malta
Parish Church of the Immaculate Conception, Ħamrun, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Pompey, Marsaxlokk, Malta
Church of Our Lady of Mercy, Bir id-Deheb, Malta
Knisja ta' Santa Marija ta' Bubaqra, Żurrieq, Malta
Knisja ta' Santa Marija ta' Ħal-Muxi, Żebbuġ, Malta
Knisja tal-Madonna tal-Girgenti, Siġġiewi, Malta
Knisja tal-Madonna tal-Karmnu, Mdina, Malta
Knisja tal-Madonna tas-Silġ, Delimara, Malta
Kappella tal-Madonna tal-Midalja Mirakuluża, Blata l-Bajda, Malta
Knisja ta' Santa Marija tal-Ħlas, Żejtun, Malta
Knisja tal-Madonna tal-Ħlas, Qormi, Malta
Santwarju tal-Madonna tal-Ghar, Rabat, Malta
Santwarju tal-Madonna ta' Pinu, Għarb,Gozo
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Mellieħa in Mellieħa, Malta
Knisja ta' Marija Bambina, Senglea, Malta
Knisja ta' Marija Bambina, Naxxar, Malta
The Sanctuary of our Lady of the Immaculate Conception in Cospicua, Malta
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Graces, Żabbar, Malta
Malaysia
Our Lady of Good Health. ( Annaivailankanni ) Kampong Pandan Kuala Lumpur.
Mexico
The Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, Mexico
Netherlands
Our Lady Star of the Sea, Maastricht
Our Lady the Sweet Mother, 's-Hertogenbosch, St. John's Cathedral
Our Lady of Handel, Handel
Lady of all nations, Amsterdam
Our Lady Wealth of Joys, Oirschot
Basilica of Our Lady of the Sacred Heart, Sittard
Our Lady at Peril, Heiloo
Our Lady the Garden Enclosed, Warfhuizen
Our Lady under the Limes, Uden
Our Lady of Ommel, Ommel
Our Lady under the Limes, Thorn
Our Lady of Frieswijk, Schalkhaar
Our Lady of Oud-Zevenaar, Oud Zevenaar
Our Lady of Bolsward, Bolsward
Our Lady of Leeuwarden, Leeuwarden
Our Lady ter Weeghe, Haastrecht
Our Lady of the sand, Roermond
Our Lady of Schilberg, Echt
Our Lady of Haarlem, Haarlem
Our Lady of Eiteren, IJsselstein
Our Lady in the Oak, Meerveldhoven
Our Lady of Aarle-Rixtel, Aarle-Rixtel
Nicaragua
San Francisco de Cuapa
Philippines
Our Lady of Peace, EDSA Shrine, Manila, Philippines.
Mary, Help of Christians, Parañaque
National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, Manila, Philippines
National Shrine of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, Quiapo, Manila, Philippines
National Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes, Quezon City, Philippines
Our Lady of the Visitation of Piat, Piat, Cagayan, Philippines
Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary, Our Lady of Manaoag in Manaoag, Pangasinan, Philippines
Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary, Nuestra Señora de la Naval De Manila in Quezon City, Philippines
Our Lady of Fatima, Nuestra Señora de la Fatima in Valenzuela City, Philippines
Peñafrancia Basilica Minore, Philippines
Our Lady of Peace and Good voyage in Antipolo, Rizal, Philippines.
Nuestra Señora de Peñafrancia de Manila, Paco, Manila
Our Lady of the Pillar, Fort Pilar - Zamboanga City, Philippines
Poland
The Black Madonna of Częstochowa in Częstochowa, Poland
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lichen in Lichen, Poland
Marian Sanctuaries in Poland
Locality Church Cult Object
Bardo Church of the Visitiation of our Lady. Redemptorists Sculpture of our lady from the 12th century ., crowned July 3rd 1966. (abp Bolesław Kominek)
Będków Church of the Immaculate Conception Icon of Our Lady of Będkow from the 15th century.
Biechowo Church of the Immaculate Conception Paulists Icon of Our Lady of Joy MB from the 15th century crowned September 12, 1976. by (cardinal. Stefan Wyszyński)
Błotnica Church of the Immaculate Conception Icon of Our Lady from the 16th century crowned in 1977.
Bochnia Church of St. Nicholas Icon of Our Lady from the 15th-16th century, crowned in 1931.
Borek Stary Monastery of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary obraz MB Borkowskiej z Dzieciątkiem, crowned on the August 15th 1919
Portugal
Our Lady of Fatima in Fatima, Portugal
Puerto Rico
Our Lady of the Well (La Virgen del Pozo) in Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico
Spain
The Sanctuary of the Black Virgin of Montserrat, Montserrat, Catalonia,
Covadonga, Asturias
Santa María de Guadalupe
The Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar, Zaragoza, Aragón
The Shrine of Our Lady of Rocío http:/www.elrocio.net, Andalucia
Valvanera
Sri Lanka
Basilica of Our Lady of Lanka in Tewatte, Ragama
Shrine of Our Lady of Madhu in Mannar district
Shrine of Our Lady of Matara in Matara
Shrine of Our Lady of Remedies, Sillalai
Turkey
House of the Virgin Mary in Ephesus, Turkey, believed to be the place where Mary was taken to by St. John and lived until the Assumption
Church of Mary in Ephesus, Turkey, in which the Council of Ephesus (the Third Ecumenical Council) was held in 431
Ukraine
Pochayiv Lavra in Ukraine
United Kingdom
Our Lady of Ipswich in Ipswich, England
Our Lady of Walsingham in Walsingham, England
Shrine of Our Lady of Egmanton in Egmanton Nottinghamshire, England
Our Lady of the Taper in Cardigan, Wales
Shrine of Our Lady of Caversham, near Reading in Berkshire
Shrine of Our Lady, Bradstowe
Our Lady of Doncaster in Doncaster, England
United States
Basilica of the National Shrine of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Baltimore, Maryland
Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, DC
Basilica and National Shrine of Our Lady of Consolation in Carey, a village in northwest Ohio
Basilica of Holy Hill, National Shrine of Mary, Help of Christians, Erin, Wisconsin
Black Madonna Shrine and Grottos, in Jefferson County, Missouri
National Shrine of Mary, Queen of the Universe in Orlando, Florida
National Shrine of Our Lady of La Salette, in Attleboro, Massachusetts
National Shrine of Our Lady of Lebanon, North Jackson, Ohio
National Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes in Emmitsburg, Maryland
National Shrine of Our Lady of Martyrs, Auriesville, New York
National Shrine of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal, in Perryville, Missouri
National Shrine of Our Lady of the Snows, in Belleville, Illinois
National Shrine to Our Lady of Walsingham for the Episcopal Church, Grace Church, Sheboygan, WI, USA
Our Lady of Loreto in Goliad, Texas
Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto located on the grounds of St. Francis Seminary in St. Francis, Wisconsin
Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto located on the campus of the University of Notre Dame in Notre Dame, Indiana
Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto maintained by the Missionary Association of Mary Immaculate in San Antonio, Texas
Our Lady of Peace Shrine in Santa Clara, California
Our Lady of Prompt Succor in New Orleans, Louisiana
Our Lady of the Roses, Mary Help of Mothers at Bayside, New York
Schoenstatt Marian Shrine in Cottage Grove, Wisconsin
Shrine of Our Lady of Good Help, Brown County, Wisconsin
Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe, in LaCrosse, Wisconsin
Shrine of Our Lady of Sorrows, in Rhineland, Missouri
Shrine of Our Lady of the Island in Eastport, New York
Shrine of the Blessed Virgin Mary, in Holy Name of Jesus Church, San Francisco, California
Cathedral of Saint Mary, in Miami, Florida
Venezuela
The Shrine of Our Lady of Betania, in the State of Miranda, Venezuela
Vietnam
Our Lady of La Vang in La Vang, Vietnam
Loreto, Italy
Our Lady of Fatima in Fatima, Portugal
Our Lady of Good Success, Madrid, Spain
Our Lady of Lebanon, Harissa, Lebanon
Our Lady of La Salette in La Salette, France
The Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, Mexico
The Basilica of Our Lady, Queen of Ireland in Knock, Ireland
The Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar, Zaragoza, Aragón, Spain
Black Madonna of Częstochowa in Częstochowa, Poland
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes in Lourdes, France
The Chapel of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal in Paris, France
Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary of Orani, Bataan Philippines
National Shrine of Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary of La Naval, Santo Domingo, Quezon City Philippines
National Shrine of Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary of Manaoag, Manaoag, Pangasinan Philippines
Mary, Queen of Peace Shrine, EDSA, Ortigas, Quezon City Philippines
Shrine of Our Lady of Peace and Good Voyage, Antipolo City Philippines
Our Lady of the Poon Bato, Botolan, Zambales, Philippines
The Minor Basilica of the Immaculate Conception, Manila, Philippines
The Basilica Minore of the Our Lady of Piat, Piat, Cagayan, Philippines
The Minor Basilica of Our Lady of Caysasay, Taal, Batangas, Philippines
Basilica of Our Lady of Good Health in India.
Our Lady of Meritxell, Andorra
Our Lady of San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco, Mexico
Our Lady of Montserrat, Catalonia, Spain
Shrine of the Virgin of Ocotlán, Ocotlán, Tlaxcala, Mexico
Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn, Vilnius, Lithuania
Our Lady of the Rosary of Chiquinquirá, Venezuela
Our Lady of Salambao, Obando, Bulacan, Philippines
Basilica of Our Lady of La Vang, La Vang, Vietnam
Our Lady of Walsingham, Norfolk, England.
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Our Lady of Peace (Queen of Peace) in Međugorje, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Brazil
Basilica of the National Shrine of Our Lady of Aparecida, Aparecida. The largest Marian shrine in the world, as well as the most popular pilgrimage site in Latin America. It is dedicated to Our Lady of Aparecida, Brazil's patron saint.
Canada
Our Lady of Combermere in Ontario, Canada
Queen of The Holy Rosary Shrine in Ajax, Ontario, Canada. www.holyrosaryshrine.org
China
Our Lady of China in Donglu, China
The Virgin of Sheshan, Help of Christians in Sheshan, China
Our Lady of Bliss near Guiyang, China
The Church of Our Lady of the Rosary in Longtian, China
The Church of Our Lady of Lourdes in Qingyang, China
Cyprus
Kykkos Monastery
Ecuador
Our Lady of the Swan (Nuestra Señora del Cisne), in El Cisne, Loja, Ecuador.
Egypt
Our Lady of Zeiton, apparitions of Virgin Mary on the Coptic Orthodox Church.
France
Our Lady of La Salette in La Salette, France
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes in Lourdes, France
The Chapel of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal in Paris, France
Greece
Our Lady of Tinos, Tinos Island, Greece's patron saint.
Autonomous Monastic State of the Holy Mountain, Mount Athos, Greece,the garden of the Mother of God being out of bounds to all other women.
Holy Land
The Basilica of the Annunciation, in Nazareth.
The Church of the Dormition of Our Lady on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem.
The Church of the Tomb of the Virgin Mary in the garden of Gethsemane, in Jerusalem
The Milk Grotto Church of Virgin Mary in Bethlehem
India
Malankara Orthodox St. Mary's Church, also known as Cheriapally (Little Church) in Kottayam, Kerala, India; originally built in 1579Basilica of Our Lady of Good Health Vailankanni, Tamil Nadu, India
Poondi Matha Bascillica, Poondi ,Tamil Nadu, India
National Shrine of Our Lady of Ransom, Vallarpadam, Cochin ,Kerala, India
Our Lady of Snows Basilica, Tuticorin,Tamil Nadu, India
Our Lady of Remedies, Vasai,Maharashtra, India
Our Lady of Bandle, Chinsurah, West Bengal, India
Ireland
The Basilica of Our Lady, Queen of Ireland in Knock, Ireland
Italy
Shrine of the Holy House, Loreto
Holy Mary of Third Millennium at Three Fountains, Rome[1]
Sanctuary of Macereto
Our Lady of the Rosary of Pompei, Pompei
Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, Rome, home of the Salus Populi Romani icon.
Japan
Our Lady of Akita Akita, Japan
Lebanon
Our Lady of Bechouat, a Marian sanctuary in the Beqaa Valley of Lebanon.
Our Lady of Bekaa, a Marian shrine located in Zahle, Lebanon with panoramic views of the Beqaa Valley.
Our Lady of the Waterfall, a Marian shrine in Jezzine, Lebanon
Our Lady of Lebanon, a Marian shrine in Harissa, Lebanon
Our Lady of Light, a Marian chapel in Centre Ville, Beirut in Lebanon
Our Lady of Lourdes Monument, Ain Ebel, Lebanon
Our Lady of Mantara, a Marian shrine in Maghdouché, Lebanon
Our Lady of Nourieh, a Marian shrine and monastery atop Theoprosopon in Hamat, Lebanon.
Our Lady of the Wind, Enfeh, Lebanon
Lithuania
Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn in Vilnius, Lithuania
Malta
Our Lady of Consecration, Girgenti, Siġġiewi, Malta
Our Lady of Borg in-Nadur, Borġ in-Nadur, Qajjenza, Birżebbuġa, Malta
Our Lady of Mount Carmel Sanctuary, Valletta,Malta
Old Parish Church of Our Lady of Sorrows, Birżebbuġa, Malta
Parish Church of the Anuciation, Tarxien, Malta
Parish Church of the Anuciation, Balzan, Malta
Parish Church of Maria Regina, Marsa, Malta
Parish Church of Monte Carmele, Fgura, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Fatima, Pietà, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Loreto, Għajnsielem, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Lourdes, Paola, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Sorrows, San Pawl il-Baħar, Malta
Parish Church of the Sacred Heart of Mary, Burmaradd, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Għaxaq, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Gudja, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Mġarr, Malta
Rotonda of St. Mary, Mosta, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Mqabba, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Qrendi, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Birkirkara, Malta
Parish Church of St. Mary, Attard, Malta
Parish Church of the Immaculate Conception, Ħamrun, Malta
Parish Church of Our Lady of Pompey, Marsaxlokk, Malta
Church of Our Lady of Mercy, Bir id-Deheb, Malta
Knisja ta' Santa Marija ta' Bubaqra, Żurrieq, Malta
Knisja ta' Santa Marija ta' Ħal-Muxi, Żebbuġ, Malta
Knisja tal-Madonna tal-Girgenti, Siġġiewi, Malta
Knisja tal-Madonna tal-Karmnu, Mdina, Malta
Knisja tal-Madonna tas-Silġ, Delimara, Malta
Kappella tal-Madonna tal-Midalja Mirakuluża, Blata l-Bajda, Malta
Knisja ta' Santa Marija tal-Ħlas, Żejtun, Malta
Knisja tal-Madonna tal-Ħlas, Qormi, Malta
Santwarju tal-Madonna tal-Ghar, Rabat, Malta
Santwarju tal-Madonna ta' Pinu, Għarb,Gozo
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Mellieħa in Mellieħa, Malta
Knisja ta' Marija Bambina, Senglea, Malta
Knisja ta' Marija Bambina, Naxxar, Malta
The Sanctuary of our Lady of the Immaculate Conception in Cospicua, Malta
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Graces, Żabbar, Malta
Malaysia
Our Lady of Good Health. ( Annaivailankanni ) Kampong Pandan Kuala Lumpur.
Mexico
The Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, Mexico
Netherlands
Our Lady Star of the Sea, Maastricht
Our Lady the Sweet Mother, 's-Hertogenbosch, St. John's Cathedral
Our Lady of Handel, Handel
Lady of all nations, Amsterdam
Our Lady Wealth of Joys, Oirschot
Basilica of Our Lady of the Sacred Heart, Sittard
Our Lady at Peril, Heiloo
Our Lady the Garden Enclosed, Warfhuizen
Our Lady under the Limes, Uden
Our Lady of Ommel, Ommel
Our Lady under the Limes, Thorn
Our Lady of Frieswijk, Schalkhaar
Our Lady of Oud-Zevenaar, Oud Zevenaar
Our Lady of Bolsward, Bolsward
Our Lady of Leeuwarden, Leeuwarden
Our Lady ter Weeghe, Haastrecht
Our Lady of the sand, Roermond
Our Lady of Schilberg, Echt
Our Lady of Haarlem, Haarlem
Our Lady of Eiteren, IJsselstein
Our Lady in the Oak, Meerveldhoven
Our Lady of Aarle-Rixtel, Aarle-Rixtel
Nicaragua
San Francisco de Cuapa
Philippines
Our Lady of Peace, EDSA Shrine, Manila, Philippines.
Mary, Help of Christians, Parañaque
National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, Manila, Philippines
National Shrine of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, Quiapo, Manila, Philippines
National Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes, Quezon City, Philippines
Our Lady of the Visitation of Piat, Piat, Cagayan, Philippines
Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary, Our Lady of Manaoag in Manaoag, Pangasinan, Philippines
Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary, Nuestra Señora de la Naval De Manila in Quezon City, Philippines
Our Lady of Fatima, Nuestra Señora de la Fatima in Valenzuela City, Philippines
Peñafrancia Basilica Minore, Philippines
Our Lady of Peace and Good voyage in Antipolo, Rizal, Philippines.
Nuestra Señora de Peñafrancia de Manila, Paco, Manila
Our Lady of the Pillar, Fort Pilar - Zamboanga City, Philippines
Poland
The Black Madonna of Częstochowa in Częstochowa, Poland
The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lichen in Lichen, Poland
Marian Sanctuaries in Poland
Locality Church Cult Object
Bardo Church of the Visitiation of our Lady. Redemptorists Sculpture of our lady from the 12th century ., crowned July 3rd 1966. (abp Bolesław Kominek)
Będków Church of the Immaculate Conception Icon of Our Lady of Będkow from the 15th century.
Biechowo Church of the Immaculate Conception Paulists Icon of Our Lady of Joy MB from the 15th century crowned September 12, 1976. by (cardinal. Stefan Wyszyński)
Błotnica Church of the Immaculate Conception Icon of Our Lady from the 16th century crowned in 1977.
Bochnia Church of St. Nicholas Icon of Our Lady from the 15th-16th century, crowned in 1931.
Borek Stary Monastery of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary obraz MB Borkowskiej z Dzieciątkiem, crowned on the August 15th 1919
Portugal
Our Lady of Fatima in Fatima, Portugal
Puerto Rico
Our Lady of the Well (La Virgen del Pozo) in Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico
Spain
The Sanctuary of the Black Virgin of Montserrat, Montserrat, Catalonia,
Covadonga, Asturias
Santa María de Guadalupe
The Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar, Zaragoza, Aragón
The Shrine of Our Lady of Rocío http:/www.elrocio.net, Andalucia
Valvanera
Sri Lanka
Basilica of Our Lady of Lanka in Tewatte, Ragama
Shrine of Our Lady of Madhu in Mannar district
Shrine of Our Lady of Matara in Matara
Shrine of Our Lady of Remedies, Sillalai
Turkey
House of the Virgin Mary in Ephesus, Turkey, believed to be the place where Mary was taken to by St. John and lived until the Assumption
Church of Mary in Ephesus, Turkey, in which the Council of Ephesus (the Third Ecumenical Council) was held in 431
Ukraine
Pochayiv Lavra in Ukraine
United Kingdom
Our Lady of Ipswich in Ipswich, England
Our Lady of Walsingham in Walsingham, England
Shrine of Our Lady of Egmanton in Egmanton Nottinghamshire, England
Our Lady of the Taper in Cardigan, Wales
Shrine of Our Lady of Caversham, near Reading in Berkshire
Shrine of Our Lady, Bradstowe
Our Lady of Doncaster in Doncaster, England
United States
Basilica of the National Shrine of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Baltimore, Maryland
Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, DC
Basilica and National Shrine of Our Lady of Consolation in Carey, a village in northwest Ohio
Basilica of Holy Hill, National Shrine of Mary, Help of Christians, Erin, Wisconsin
Black Madonna Shrine and Grottos, in Jefferson County, Missouri
National Shrine of Mary, Queen of the Universe in Orlando, Florida
National Shrine of Our Lady of La Salette, in Attleboro, Massachusetts
National Shrine of Our Lady of Lebanon, North Jackson, Ohio
National Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes in Emmitsburg, Maryland
National Shrine of Our Lady of Martyrs, Auriesville, New York
National Shrine of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal, in Perryville, Missouri
National Shrine of Our Lady of the Snows, in Belleville, Illinois
National Shrine to Our Lady of Walsingham for the Episcopal Church, Grace Church, Sheboygan, WI, USA
Our Lady of Loreto in Goliad, Texas
Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto located on the grounds of St. Francis Seminary in St. Francis, Wisconsin
Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto located on the campus of the University of Notre Dame in Notre Dame, Indiana
Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto maintained by the Missionary Association of Mary Immaculate in San Antonio, Texas
Our Lady of Peace Shrine in Santa Clara, California
Our Lady of Prompt Succor in New Orleans, Louisiana
Our Lady of the Roses, Mary Help of Mothers at Bayside, New York
Schoenstatt Marian Shrine in Cottage Grove, Wisconsin
Shrine of Our Lady of Good Help, Brown County, Wisconsin
Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe, in LaCrosse, Wisconsin
Shrine of Our Lady of Sorrows, in Rhineland, Missouri
Shrine of Our Lady of the Island in Eastport, New York
Shrine of the Blessed Virgin Mary, in Holy Name of Jesus Church, San Francisco, California
Cathedral of Saint Mary, in Miami, Florida
Venezuela
The Shrine of Our Lady of Betania, in the State of Miranda, Venezuela
Vietnam
Our Lady of La Vang in La Vang, Vietnam
Whew. Them thar's a lot of shrines to Mary, regardless of how many there might be to Jesus. But I am fairly certain you won't be able to find many at all to Jesus, because the whole focus in Catholicism is essentially on Mary, either in conjuction with Jesus, or basically independently of Jesus, as a "stand-alone" goddess.
By the way, I live "right next door" (in a neighboring city) to the University of Notre Dame (located in South Bend, IN). That university itself is named in honor of Mary (the "Dame"). There are two shrines that I know of at ND - one is the football stadium, which is overlooked by the giant mural on the 10-story or more library of Jesus; the other is a shrine to Mary called "The Grotto", which is relatively quite popular, even "famous". Here's a brief description of Notre Dame's "Grotto":
QUOTE
The Grotto is a one-seventh replica of the famed French shrine where the Blessed Virgin appeared to Saint Bernadette. Thousands visit the Notre Dame shrine each year to pray and light candles.
Visiting Lourdes on one of his many trips abroad, Fr. Sorin vowed to reproduce that Grotto on campus. He did build a small shrine near the Basilica, but the present-day Grotto was built by Rev. William Corby, CSC. A gift in 1896 from alumnus Rev. Thomas Carroll made the construction possible.
Visiting Lourdes on one of his many trips abroad, Fr. Sorin vowed to reproduce that Grotto on campus. He did build a small shrine near the Basilica, but the present-day Grotto was built by Rev. William Corby, CSC. A gift in 1896 from alumnus Rev. Thomas Carroll made the construction possible.
ND is a hotbed of Marian veneration, and it's sickening. I doubt there are many who are "poor and illiterate" at Notre Dame, by the way.
to kansas dad
does it give catholics the right to tell us christians to tremble in fear like your mate excubitor left in another post on the same subject ? should we all beg for mercy kansas dad every time a question is asked you catholics dont answer the question honestly you beat around the bush
now answer my question this is what was left if dad is angry who do you turn to ? i believe mary is angry and us who regect her should tremble in in our boots
know answer the question honestly has mary got this power to punish ?
god bless from damo
QUOTE (Godsword @ May 16 2008, 08:51 AM)
Jack777,
No, but there are many here who think that Jesus considers it an abomination for people to pray to His mother, and to worship her and exalt her to His and God's place.
QUOTE
Is there anyone here that thinks Jesus did not love His Mom?
No, but there are many here who think that Jesus considers it an abomination for people to pray to His mother, and to worship her and exalt her to His and God's place.
Who are these wicked people who worship Mary as the creator of the universe and who exalt her in place of God? Such people should be excommunicated immediately. I know that the Pope would agree with me and would not allow such teachings or statements to be made in his church.
Catholics do not substitute Mary for God. They do not worship her. It is true that they pray to her but as I have explained many times Prayer means to beseech and petition. This is what Catholics do. They ask Mary on our behalf saying "Pray for us sinners. Now and at the hour of our death".
So your statement here is a wicked and hateful accusation against fellow Christians, judging their motives in the most hard hearted fashion imagineable. Surely there is no worse accusation than claiming that someone has denied God and exalted a false god. My heart mourns for catholic families who raise up a young child only to have him seduced by a charismatic or evangelical church which bristles with fundamental hatred for Catholicism. Foaming with rebellion these young people then spew out their vile accusations against their parents, and the priests and nuns who raised them.
How heartbreaking for a parent to be the subject of these wicked accusations from their own children. Surely our hearts mourn because of the wild boar which got loose in the Lord's vineyard.
QUOTE (Jack777 @ May 15 2008, 06:25 PM)
Thanks, I have read the "whole" Bible. How many posters here claim to worship Mary?
Prayer, worship, adoration, praise and veneration are reserved for the One True Living God....
...not to a relic, shrine, dead saint, or Queen of Heaven (See Jeremiah 44 - RCC "Mary".)
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...19108&st=18
I doubt if any Roman Catholic will admit to worshiping Mary because it draws controversy from true Bible-believing, born-from-above Christians and likens their religion to a cult of Mary. But they do admit to all else above. So...yes.. it is worship.
http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_n...mary&type=2
But...no doubt... their leader, the Pope does worship Mary:
Read the articles carefully.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Rel...rships_mary.htm
http://www.remnantofgod.org/godmary.htm
http://www.remnantofgod.org/mry-a6.htm
QUOTE (excubitor @ May 15 2008, 07:42 PM)
QUOTE (Godsword @ May 16 2008, 08:51 AM)
Jack777,
No, but there are many here who think that Jesus considers it an abomination for people to pray to His mother, and to worship her and exalt her to His and God's place.
QUOTE
Is there anyone here that thinks Jesus did not love His Mom?
No, but there are many here who think that Jesus considers it an abomination for people to pray to His mother, and to worship her and exalt her to His and God's place.
Who are these wicked people who worship Mary as the creator of the universe and who exalt her in place of God? Such people should be excommunicated immediately. I know that the Pope would agree with me and would not allow such teachings or statements to be made in his church.
Catholics do not substitute Mary for God. They do not worship her. It is true that they pray to her but as I have explained many times Prayer means to beseech and petition. This is what Catholics do. They ask Mary on our behalf saying "Pray for us sinners. Now and at the hour of our death".
So your statement here is a wicked and hateful accusation against fellow Christians, judging their motives in the most hard hearted fashion imagineable. Surely there is no worse accusation than claiming that someone has denied God and exalted a false god. My heart mourns for catholic families who raise up a young child only to have him seduced by a charismatic or evangelical church which bristles with fundamental hatred for Catholicism. Foaming with rebellion these young people then spew out their vile accusations against their parents, and the priests and nuns who raised them.
How heartbreaking for a parent to be the subject of these wicked accusations from their own children. Surely our hearts mourn because of the wild boar which got loose in the Lord's vineyard.
yes excubitor and are you this wild boar how stupid for you to leave this hear but when it comes to you excubitor you have the mind of a ten year old yes come down on us charasmatics come down on us penticostals and come down on us apostolic christians
so nice of you to leave this in cyber land hay i weighted for mary to turn up had the cane and extension cord ready i guess your mary you up hold did not have the guts to punish me as you left in another thread on the very same subjcet
so typical when it comes to a protestant like your self
god bless from damo
excubitor,
Roman Catholics, especially their leaders.
Such people are already separated from God, because they either do not understand, or have not accepted, the Gospel of Jesus Christ without adulteration.
Not blatantly, at this point, I imagine. But effectively, he and the previous pope are two of the most "Mary exalting" individuals there have been. "Consecrating" entire nations to Mary - blasphemous, and in essence exalting Mary to the place of God.
In many ways, yes, they do.
No, they do worship her, if not in word, in deed. Their actions, and their devotion to her, reveal their worship of her.
Yes, but absolutely NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE is there any suggestion that an individual should pray to anyone other than God. Jesus Himself gave us the pattern to follow, when He gave us the Lord's Prayer - "Our Father, Who is in Heaven,...". We are to pray to God the Father, or to Jesus - NOT to anyone other than God. Besides, only God is omniscient and omnipotent - and we have the right to come boldly before Him, as the Book of Hebrews says, and present our petitions. The Catholic teaching of prayers to Mary and the saints effectively distances God from the hearts of those making those prayers, and that is a very vile, evil, sin. Mary is not omniscient - why should we not think she is overwhelmed by millions of prayers being made to her every day? For her to be able to hear and answer those prayers, she would have to be God, which she is not - thus, prayers to Mary are one means by which the RCC exalts Mary to the place of God.
And there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to do so. Are Christians not forgiven sinners? If so, then why remind Mary that we are sinners? Does she not know this? If Christians are forgiven of their sin, as the Bible says, and if this forgiveness has been accomplished for them by Jesus, not by Mary, then why should Christians pray to Mary rather than to Jesus? And pretending that Mary has any say in what happens "at the hour of our death" is to denigrate Jesus' love for us and His power - Jesus DIED for us, because He loves us ("for God so loved the world"). Mary did not die for us. Why should we seek Mary's favor and intercession at our deaths, if we KNOW that Jesus already loves us and has already died for us, and thus has already accepted us? Looking to Mary "at the hour of our death" is an abomination and a blasphemous insult thrown in Jesus' face.
Hoooey. It is a "judgment" upon the practice and teaching, not upon those who are deluded by trusting those they suppose to be teaching God's truth. Stop trying to muddy and taint the waters, and stick with the issues.
Perhaps. But if that's what they've done, then the accusation has merit, as it does in the case of the accusation that the RCC is exalting Mary to the place of God.
Sniff. And my heart mourns for young children raised by Catholic families in the apostate cult of Roman Catholicism. God Himself hates idolatry, and all things which turn people away from faith in Jesus, and which keep people from simple trust in the Gospel and in Jesus' sacrifice and love. Thus, God hates Roman Catholicism.
They do? The little heathens.
But it's not really "rebellion" if one "rebels" against that which itself is in rebellion against God, as the RCC is in rebellion. And I appreciated your histrionic description of all those young Catholics who are swayed away from Catholicism by Evangelicals - it helps me show how unreasonable and unreasoning many Catholics can be, and that they often have difficulty sticking to the issues, and will quickly try to manipulate the emotions instead.
"Mom, Dad - I love you both, but you're part of an apostate church. You should leave the RCC." Oh, what wickedness!! What disrespect!!
Mooooo.
QUOTE
Who are these wicked people who worship Mary as the creator of the universe and who exalt her in place of God?
Roman Catholics, especially their leaders.
QUOTE
Such people should be excommunicated immediately.
Such people are already separated from God, because they either do not understand, or have not accepted, the Gospel of Jesus Christ without adulteration.
QUOTE
I know that the Pope would agree with me and would not allow such teachings or statements to be made in his church.
Not blatantly, at this point, I imagine. But effectively, he and the previous pope are two of the most "Mary exalting" individuals there have been. "Consecrating" entire nations to Mary - blasphemous, and in essence exalting Mary to the place of God.
QUOTE
Catholics do not substitute Mary for God.
In many ways, yes, they do.
QUOTE
They do not worship her.
No, they do worship her, if not in word, in deed. Their actions, and their devotion to her, reveal their worship of her.
QUOTE
It is true that they pray to her but as I have explained many times Prayer means to beseech and petition.
Yes, but absolutely NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE is there any suggestion that an individual should pray to anyone other than God. Jesus Himself gave us the pattern to follow, when He gave us the Lord's Prayer - "Our Father, Who is in Heaven,...". We are to pray to God the Father, or to Jesus - NOT to anyone other than God. Besides, only God is omniscient and omnipotent - and we have the right to come boldly before Him, as the Book of Hebrews says, and present our petitions. The Catholic teaching of prayers to Mary and the saints effectively distances God from the hearts of those making those prayers, and that is a very vile, evil, sin. Mary is not omniscient - why should we not think she is overwhelmed by millions of prayers being made to her every day? For her to be able to hear and answer those prayers, she would have to be God, which she is not - thus, prayers to Mary are one means by which the RCC exalts Mary to the place of God.
QUOTE
This is what Catholics do. They ask Mary on our behalf saying "Pray for us sinners. Now and at the hour of our death".
And there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to do so. Are Christians not forgiven sinners? If so, then why remind Mary that we are sinners? Does she not know this? If Christians are forgiven of their sin, as the Bible says, and if this forgiveness has been accomplished for them by Jesus, not by Mary, then why should Christians pray to Mary rather than to Jesus? And pretending that Mary has any say in what happens "at the hour of our death" is to denigrate Jesus' love for us and His power - Jesus DIED for us, because He loves us ("for God so loved the world"). Mary did not die for us. Why should we seek Mary's favor and intercession at our deaths, if we KNOW that Jesus already loves us and has already died for us, and thus has already accepted us? Looking to Mary "at the hour of our death" is an abomination and a blasphemous insult thrown in Jesus' face.
QUOTE
So your statement here is a wicked and hateful accusation against fellow Christians, judging their motives in the most hard hearted fashion imagineable.
Hoooey. It is a "judgment" upon the practice and teaching, not upon those who are deluded by trusting those they suppose to be teaching God's truth. Stop trying to muddy and taint the waters, and stick with the issues.
QUOTE
Surely there is no worse accusation than claiming that someone has denied God and exalted a false god.
Perhaps. But if that's what they've done, then the accusation has merit, as it does in the case of the accusation that the RCC is exalting Mary to the place of God.
QUOTE
My heart mourns for catholic families who raise up a young child only to have him seduced by a charismatic or evangelical church which bristles with fundamental hatred for Catholicism.
Sniff. And my heart mourns for young children raised by Catholic families in the apostate cult of Roman Catholicism. God Himself hates idolatry, and all things which turn people away from faith in Jesus, and which keep people from simple trust in the Gospel and in Jesus' sacrifice and love. Thus, God hates Roman Catholicism.
QUOTE
Foaming with rebellion these young people then spew out their vile accusations against their parents, and the priests and nuns who raised them.
They do? The little heathens.
But it's not really "rebellion" if one "rebels" against that which itself is in rebellion against God, as the RCC is in rebellion. And I appreciated your histrionic description of all those young Catholics who are swayed away from Catholicism by Evangelicals - it helps me show how unreasonable and unreasoning many Catholics can be, and that they often have difficulty sticking to the issues, and will quickly try to manipulate the emotions instead.QUOTE
How heartbreaking for a parent to be the subject of these wicked accusations from their own children.
"Mom, Dad - I love you both, but you're part of an apostate church. You should leave the RCC." Oh, what wickedness!! What disrespect!!
QUOTE
Surely our hearts mourn because of the wild boar which got loose in the Lord's vineyard.
Mooooo.
So, according to some here, the Roman Catholic Church is against God? God bless and forgive us all.
QUOTE
So, according to some here, the Roman Catholic Church is against God? God bless and forgive us all.
I believe that the Catholic church has way too much going on. Why should it be so complicated. ?? I dont put that much energy into exploiting the church, I just dont recommend it to anyone that maybe trying to find God/the light.
Its an old church of Old Doctrine where as many went to war. .. Jesus' teaching is the "doctrine" that I base my life. So I would have to say best of luck to you when trying to find truth.
My original posts were to question if talking to a priest is even necessary for my life or more so my spirit?, my mediator with the Almighty is Jesus to whom, fervently I prescribe. What else do I need??
The whole "mary" thing is ridiculous. but to each his own.
QUOTE (melloinfinity @ May 15 2008, 09:09 PM)
QUOTE
So, according to some here, the Roman Catholic Church is against God? God bless and forgive us all.
I believe that the Catholic church has way too much going on. Why should it be so complicated. ?? I dont put that much energy into exploiting the church, I just dont recommend it to anyone that maybe trying to find God/the light.
Its an old church of Old Doctrine where as many went to war. .. Jesus' teaching is the "doctrine" that I base my life. So I would have to say best of luck to you when trying to find truth.
My original posts were to question if talking to a priest is even necessary for my life or more so my spirit?, my mediator with the Almighty is Jesus to whom, fervently I prescribe. What else do I need??
The whole "mary" thing is ridiculous. but to each his own.
All we need is God. Sometimes it is okay to need one another, even preferable. Bottom line is God no doubt.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
James 5:16
[quote name='excubitor' date='May 12 2008, 07:43 AM' post='183452']
Ok here we go:.........................
Confessions are made to the priest who is the vicar of Christ, in other words, his proxy and representative on the earth. The priest is performing the role of Jesus Christ. Therefore when we confess our sins to the priest it is as if we are confessing them to Jesus Christ himself. .............. end quote
Of course a "priest" must be ordained by the RC hierarchy,... all in submission to the pope.
Yet Paul was picked and ordained directly by Jesus Christ.
Peter [presumably the first pope] had nothing to do with the picking and ordaining of Paul.
Paul was not subserviant to Peter. Note Galatians.
Matter of fact, Peter had no special authority over untold millions who were picked and ordained by Jesus to serve Jesus.
Ok here we go:.........................
Confessions are made to the priest who is the vicar of Christ, in other words, his proxy and representative on the earth. The priest is performing the role of Jesus Christ. Therefore when we confess our sins to the priest it is as if we are confessing them to Jesus Christ himself. .............. end quote
Of course a "priest" must be ordained by the RC hierarchy,... all in submission to the pope.
Yet Paul was picked and ordained directly by Jesus Christ.
Peter [presumably the first pope] had nothing to do with the picking and ordaining of Paul.
Paul was not subserviant to Peter. Note Galatians.
Matter of fact, Peter had no special authority over untold millions who were picked and ordained by Jesus to serve Jesus.
QUOTE (Thedoubter @ May 11 2008, 04:14 PM)
Thought I'd put this up just to see everyones opinions on the matter. So your probably wondering what I'm talking about so I'm going to list off my problems with the Catholic church, and then leave it open for anyone to put in their thoughts and views. All ideas are welcome.
Ok here we go:
The Pope, Archbishops, Bishops, Priest etc. - I believe that the Catholic heirarchy is wrong and against what God said. God left instructions as to how he wanted his church to be set up. I ask then how has the most famous of the Christian demonotaions seeming rejected all of this teaching? The Catholic church imposes its own rules rather than listening to God. For example the idea that the Pope is somehow purer than regular people, when he is a sinner as much as any other man. And keeping the poor man from marrying, when the Bible clearly says that marriage is Holy. And the idea that we are to have are sins forgiven and come close to God through men, when the Bible says that only through Jesus can we come to God and be forgiven.
The Saints and Mary - These people have been made into false idols. The bible says "all men who believe are saints", so why place these above the rest? And then people pray to the saints rather than God, when God has said only through Jesus can we come to the Lord. And worryingly worship of mary is starting to overtake worship of God, when the bible says we should not be worshipping her at all, or anyone else! The Bible says that God is the only one deserving of our worship, so how can the Catholic Church justify these false idols?
These are my main points of annoyance, I'm eager to see what everyone elses views are.
God bless
Thedoubter.
Ok here we go:
The Pope, Archbishops, Bishops, Priest etc. - I believe that the Catholic heirarchy is wrong and against what God said. God left instructions as to how he wanted his church to be set up. I ask then how has the most famous of the Christian demonotaions seeming rejected all of this teaching? The Catholic church imposes its own rules rather than listening to God. For example the idea that the Pope is somehow purer than regular people, when he is a sinner as much as any other man. And keeping the poor man from marrying, when the Bible clearly says that marriage is Holy. And the idea that we are to have are sins forgiven and come close to God through men, when the Bible says that only through Jesus can we come to God and be forgiven.
The Saints and Mary - These people have been made into false idols. The bible says "all men who believe are saints", so why place these above the rest? And then people pray to the saints rather than God, when God has said only through Jesus can we come to the Lord. And worryingly worship of mary is starting to overtake worship of God, when the bible says we should not be worshipping her at all, or anyone else! The Bible says that God is the only one deserving of our worship, so how can the Catholic Church justify these false idols?
These are my main points of annoyance, I'm eager to see what everyone elses views are.
God bless
Thedoubter.
The Catholic Church - For God Or Against Him?
Is the sky blue?
Do chickens have lips?
In other words, yes and no...
QUOTE (John Prewett @ May 16 2008, 01:32 PM)
Ok here we go:.........................
Confessions are made to the priest who is the vicar of Christ, in other words, his proxy and representative on the earth. The priest is performing the role of Jesus Christ. Therefore when we confess our sins to the priest it is as if we are confessing them to Jesus Christ himself. .............. end
Of course a "priest" must be ordained by the RC hierarchy,... all in submission to the pope.
Yet Paul was picked and ordained directly by Jesus Christ.
Peter [presumably the first pope] had nothing to do with the picking and ordaining of Paul.
Paul was not subserviant to Peter. Note Galatians.
Matter of fact, Peter had no special authority over untold millions who were picked and ordained by Jesus to serve Jesus.
QUOTE (excubitor @ May 12 2008, 07:43 AM)
Confessions are made to the priest who is the vicar of Christ, in other words, his proxy and representative on the earth. The priest is performing the role of Jesus Christ. Therefore when we confess our sins to the priest it is as if we are confessing them to Jesus Christ himself. .............. end
Of course a "priest" must be ordained by the RC hierarchy,... all in submission to the pope.
Yet Paul was picked and ordained directly by Jesus Christ.
Peter [presumably the first pope] had nothing to do with the picking and ordaining of Paul.
Paul was not subserviant to Peter. Note Galatians.
Matter of fact, Peter had no special authority over untold millions who were picked and ordained by Jesus to serve Jesus.
OK I'm looking at Galations. Paul indeed was called directly by Jesus Christ who taught him directly in Arabia for the space of 3 years Galations 1:18. And who did he go to directly after his tuition from Christ? He went straight to Peter and spent 15 days with him. Now why would he go to see Peter if Peter did not have a special place of authority within the church. Now how far do you think Pauls teachings would have got if in those 15 days he was unable to convince Peter that his visions and experiences were true. He would not have got a look in amongst the church especially after his track record of persecuting the saints. This is clear evidence that visions, experiences and teachings must be approved by the magisterium of the church before they may be spread about. If someone so great as Paul defers to Peter then how much more should we defer to our minister?
We see further evidence of this when Paul and James had a dispute about the circumcision of the gentiles. Where did they go to settle this dispute? To the Council of Jerusalem, presided over by Peter. To this day doctrinal disputes within the church are settled this way, in councils and prenouncements by the Pope.
I wonder how the Church in India, China, and Japan handled things after Thomas established them?
QUOTE
We see further evidence of this when Paul and James had a dispute about the circumcision of the gentiles. Where did they go to settle this dispute? To the Council of Jerusalem, presided over by Peter. To this day doctrinal disputes within the church are settled this way, in councils and prenouncements by the Pope.
Mark 7
1NOW THERE gathered together to [Jesus] the Pharisees and some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem,
2For they had seen that some of His disciples ate with [a]common hands, that is, unwashed [with hands defiled and unhallowed, because they had not given them a [b]ceremonial washing]--
3For the Pharisees and all of the Jews do not eat unless [merely for ceremonial reasons] they wash their hands [diligently [c]up to the elbow] with clenched fist, adhering [carefully and faithfully] to the tradition of [practices and customs handed down to them by] their forefathers [to be observed].
4And [when they come] from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions [oral, man-made laws handed down to them, which they observe faithfully and diligently, such as], the washing of cups and wooden pitchers and widemouthed jugs and utensils of copper and [d]beds--
5And the Pharisees and scribes kept asking [Jesus], Why do Your disciples not order their way of living according to the tradition handed down by the forefathers [to be observed], but eat with hands unwashed and ceremonially not purified?
6But He said to them, Excellently and truly [[e]so that there will be no room for blame] did Isaiah prophesy of you, the pretenders and hypocrites, as it stands written: These people [constantly] honor Me with their lips, but their hearts hold off and are far distant from Me.
7In vain (fruitlessly and without profit) do they worship Me, ordering and teaching [to be obeyed] as doctrines the commandments and precepts of men.(A)
8You disregard and give up and ask to depart from you the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men [keeping it carefully and faithfully].
QUOTE (melloinfinity @ May 16 2008, 07:57 PM)
QUOTE
We see further evidence of this when Paul and James had a dispute about the circumcision of the gentiles. Where did they go to settle this dispute? To the Council of Jerusalem, presided over by Peter. To this day doctrinal disputes within the church are settled this way, in councils and prenouncements by the Pope.
Mark 7
1NOW THERE gathered together to [Jesus] the Pharisees and some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem,
2For they had seen that some of His disciples ate with [a]common hands, that is, unwashed [with hands defiled and unhallowed, because they had not given them a ceremonial washing]--
3For the Pharisees and all of the Jews do not eat unless [merely for ceremonial reasons] they wash their hands [diligently [c]up to the elbow] with clenched fist, adhering [carefully and faithfully] to the tradition of [practices and customs handed down to them by] their forefathers [to be observed].
4And [when they come] from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions [oral, man-made laws handed down to them, which they observe faithfully and diligently, such as], the washing of cups and wooden pitchers and widemouthed jugs and utensils of copper and [d]beds--
5And the Pharisees and scribes kept asking [Jesus], Why do Your disciples not order their way of living according to the tradition handed down by the forefathers [to be observed], but eat with hands unwashed and ceremonially not purified?
6But He said to them, Excellently and truly [[e]so that there will be no room for blame] did Isaiah prophesy of you, the pretenders and hypocrites, as it stands written: These people [constantly] honor Me with their lips, but their hearts hold off and are far distant from Me.
7In vain (fruitlessly and without profit) do they worship Me, ordering and teaching [to be obeyed] as doctrines the commandments and precepts of men.(A)
8You disregard and give up and ask to depart from you the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men [keeping it carefully and faithfully].
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and [b]hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
So how do we know whether we are following the traditions of the apostles or the traditions of worldly men? How shocking to imagine that the church might be of some instance in teaching us the difference.
QU