1st off, how many of you are against pre-marital sex?

Note that today, marriage, we usually think of 'legally' married.

But not many of us think about religiously marriage.

Suppose a man and a woman were stuck on a deserted island, and they wanted to have kids. It could be impossible for them to be 'legally' married, so wouldn't the logical thing be to get 'religiouslly' married?

Or, think back to the Adam and Eve days (before any legal marriage?).

So my question is, religious marriage without legal marriage is enough?

And when you're religiouslly married, you don't have to worry about pre-legally marital sex?

And how does 1 go about getting 'religiouslly' married?

Of course, 99.99% of you would argue that even if you are religiouslly married with your spouse, you *should* still get legally married.

I think a woman can simply get religiouslly married without getting legally married, and then legally change her last name to her husband's last name, and not have to worry about pre-marital sex, or to get legally married even when after she has kids.

Okay?

Neal C.

Ok--I'll take a stab at this!

I'm against pre-marital sex.

God married Adam and Eve, and that's the highest authority you can have. There wasn't any legal authority who had to be satisfied about the validity of their marriage. All that came later. These days, though, people have to be legally married, even if the marriage takes place in a church. There has to be a marriage license for it to be valid.

How do YOU see that people can get religiously married without it being a "legal" marriage? It's an intriguing thought.

I imagine every country has marriage laws, and procedures that have to be followed for a marriage to be legal. As far as the deserted island thing goes, I don't know how to answer that one. It's a tough question. My guess is that they'd need to wait until they were rescued to be legally married.

I should probably stop typing now, because it's late and I'm tired and there's no telling what will appear on the screen next!

if you are talking about defacto relationships were their are no ties or a certificate off marraige i can see why you would put this up hear adam eve had no such certificate as we do today


god gave eve to adam and she became his wife their was no fancy formal wedding with music playing


in defacto relationships a women has the same rights as a married wife does did you know that after 6 months into the relationship a women in a defacto relationship can claim everything the partner has if she does not want to continue in the relationship ?

if you dont believe me talk to a lawyer you will be very supprised how much rights a defacto spouce has when it comes to a women who has a marraige certificate

you said suppose a man and a women were stuck on an island and they wanted to have kids so it would be impossible for them to be lagally married so wouldnt the logical thing be to get religously married

its impossible in a defacto relationship the women can choose if she wants to follow the partners religon

i see this with my friends and i have seen this with in the body were young people just end up in a relationships for one thing with out thinking off the consenquences also when you do this most dont know they have already become joined together


as it says in genesis 2 verse 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall become one flesh

i did not know this until my pastor pointed this out to me in the counsling session i had with him what we did i had to cut the ties off with the women i found my self with not many christians know this and to a non believer no use trying to say what it says in genesis 2 - 24


in muslim cultures a women has to take on her husbands religon other wise she wil be seen as an infedel an out cast

and you said this when you are religouslly married you dont have to worry about pree legally marital sex

well for a non believer this is fine what about christian women who have been brought up and told sex is only for marraige when i say marraige a proper wedding with the marraige certificate

in my partners country christian filapino women hold on to this custom and dont do what the secular women do i am having to weight until i am married as i have a filapino pastor when we met we talked openly and i said i will not put us in a situation were we slip or allow our lust for each other to take over

what you have put out hear are only hypothetical questions like what if questions this is why i said are only hypothetical questions

even though my partner is seen as my wife we are not legally married so she is still a free women and i am a free man but people in our church already see us as a married couple we are only boy friend and girlfriend


no this can not happen were the spouce takes on your last name you have not got the same rights as a legally married couple



god bless from damo

here in america, we have the hmong shamanism who lived among us that are religious married to each other when their cultural customs said it is ok to do so. They are not legally married and when they need a divorce, they go to their elders for such seperations.

Legally married to them only if they need a tax break.

What God has Joined together. It has nothing to do with religion or religious. It has nothing to do with the world and their ways either. Who ever you have sex with you become one flesh with them.

1 Corinthians 6
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!
16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For "the two," He says, "shall become one flesh."
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

Okay, so you guys have brought up the point that God married Adam and Eve.

My question was more about was there a time after that God didn't marry people, and still before the time there were no legal certificate marriages?

I suppose some of you could claim that there was no time, that the moment God stopped marrying people, the concept of legal marriage exists.

I was also going to ask how cavemen and such got married but most of you would probably reject them anyways.

But I thought there was a process 2 people could do to get 'religiouslly married.'

So with pre-marital sex, there would be 2 types of pre-marital sex:

Pre-religious marital sex, and pre-legal marriage sex.

I'm surprised no one has yet argued "It doesn't matter whether you're legally married, only that you're religiously married."

I'm guessing the Bible doesn't talk about marriage specifically, and that it was a man-made invention.


What is that, a definition of marriage?

I don't imagine it includes for cases of rape, does it?

What is a religious marriage? If one is legally married in whatever culture one happens to live in, then they're married. Marriage is not according to the Spirit, so this is not a Church issue. Jesus and His disciples never married people together.

John

So there's only 1 type of marriage, and it's legal marriage?

Then what would be the point of being against pre-marital sex? Not from a religious view, but a legal view, or personal view.

If there is no such thing as a religious marriage because the Bible doesn't talk about them, then there would be no point in being against pre-marital sex except in your own view, or legal view, and not 1 from a religious view.

Are there religious speeding laws? However, stealing, is against the commandments. Fornication is too. Both of these are serious sins. So then sex should only be with a legal spouse. And you should pay for the things you take out of a store. Keep it simple. Do what is right in God's eyes.

John

^^;

<><

Sex before marriage is wrong. Anything sexual before marriage is to much. People can get married in many different ways, as long as God recognizes it. If people have a chance to be legally married it will be helpful in different ways. There is a teaching about obeying the laws of the land. Obeying God's will is always more important that anything else. If someone gets married they are required to be faithful, and stay married. God should be the one leading.

How is it wrong if the Bible doesn't even talk about marriage?

So the only marriage that exists, per the above post, is legal marriage. Which has nothing to do with religion.

Pre-marital sex means you have intention on getting married, so what would be the argument against?


So how do we know if God recognizes a marriage or not? And what marriages are those.

Edit:


And the laws of the land touch nothing about pre-marital sex.

The Bible talks about not having lust, and not letting lust control us. If you are wanting someone before marriage you already sin, that is what Jesus said, if you act on that you sin in your body is what the scripture says. Every other sin is said to be outside of the body, but the sin against the body is said to be in the body. The marriage that God recognizes is the marriage that is true marriage. Pre-marital sex means sex before marriage. There are many different ways to know it is recognized by God. When two people commit themselves, and recognize they are getting married to each other they are required to be faithful to each other, because they really did get married when they made that committment. If someone really does get married likely in many situations they would not have a problem with doing it according to the law of the land. If there is a reason to not do it legally recognize God will require they be faithful to each other, and stay together, as the scriptures say, what God has joined let no man put asunder, or let no man separate. Of course God will not recognize a marriage that is not godly, like two men, or two women together, that is confusion, and sin.

I would only add to this that there should be at least two or three credible witnesses to a commitment of two in marriage. There is a social aspect to marriage that is more than just the two individuals. They take their place in society as a new family unit.

I am not convinced that to desire someone sexually who you want to marry is sin, if the feeling is mutual. I don't think that is what Jesus meant. But they are to keep themselves until marriage, "For it is better to marry then to burn".

Ruth 3:9 And he said, "Who art thou?" And she answered, "I am Ruth thine handmaid: spread therefore thy skirt over thine handmaid; for thou art a near kinsman."

Ezekiel 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread My skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest Mine.


Boaz married Ruth when he "spread therefore thy skirt" over her. God married Jerusalem when He spread "My skirt over thee."



........Whirlwind

No, you should not have sex before you are married. But I will explain what I think marrige is about.

I think your right on actualy with some of this unlike you in the other post where I made a replie you probably won't like. A real marriage is a Union between man, women and God. I personaly beleive you don't truely need any man involved to "marry someone". Since God just handed Eve to Adam you see there was no man involved.

But because we live in a land with laws and have familys its good to show to the world in a cerimonie that you are now bound together and to complie with the laws that we live with. Such as if a women and a man were to bind themselves together before God, that would not allow a spouce to get the same legal rights over the estates of there spouce because they are not legally married. This would be stupid not to do because if you were to die, your spouce would get nothing.


If your impling at all that you could marry a spouce without cerimonie and then have sex I could see that only if you are genuily bound and commited to that person before God. Not some overnight fling garbage then dumb the person a week later.

Jeff

I almost view this in a similar way to baptism... why? Well, because, though baptism is something that believers do once saved (and I agree they should be baptized if possible), I do not believe baptism actually saves anyone. It's good, and important if possible to do so, but what is really required is faith in Jesus Christ; baptism is more a public pronouncement of said faith. (That's my take on it - I do realize many disagree on that point, however...)

-> Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

I agree with a previous poster who basically put it plainly. You are married with the people you have sex with, realizing it or not! This is probably why so much emphasis is put on NOT sleeping around, and so many warnings about abstaining from the loins of harlots! He doesn't want us to be adulterer's either... so prostitutes become a big issue when looking at it this way...

But as far as the 'Legal Marriage' argument - I find it rather weak!

-> Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world: why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?

No, God judges hearts of men, not legal documentation created by men to satisfy our own needs for structure. God gave us enough structure in the Bible to know how to treat marriage via scripture alone.

*read all of 1 Cr 7* The entire chapter is about marriage, and how to deal with it!

Basically, if you are willing to sleep with a woman, you need to realize that you are in many ways marrying her! If you are sleeping with her and don't feel as one with her - that is known as a form of adultery! (If you're not willing to make her your woman, then she's someone else's man!) You are not sleeping with her in that case because she is your love/wife, you are doing it for physical pleasure - which falls in the category of lust. Remember once you cleave unto her, you have become one flesh!

I may not be explaining this correctly, and if not, please don't hate on me! I'm tying my best to explain it as best I can, and please correct my wrongs here.

I do not know the whole Bible yet, but I do study it A LOT. I am not aware of any direct statement which outlaws pre-marital sex in scripture, but I think people who use that as an excuse are in trouble also! If there is such scripture, please let me know so I may learn more correctly.

What we have here is a difference in definitions as to what a marriage is. God's definition doesn't involve legal paperwork, it involves a commitment before Him, and the joining of two into one.
I am not saying that a couple should not be legally married, so don't think that. What I am saying though is that before God, that is not part of what makes it a marriage - that is determined in our hearts and in our commitment before the Lord. I certainly think it is correct for a couple to be legally and publicly married, sure - but it's not the legal part that makes it a marriage, its the commitment before God and to each other which makes it a marriage.

This is hard to swallow, for me at least! I have been legally married once (divorced now) and have been with many women in my lifetime. I am not proud of it, but I am learning to see it for what it really was - a string of failed marriages which primarily never worked because of several major factors God had in fact warned me about. First off, I consider each of those women to be ex-wives of mine in one sort or another. The world will classify them as ex-girlfriends, ect... but with respect to true reality I loved each of them and wanted to stay with them my whole life. Most of those relationships fell apart because I was in a period of my life where I didn't believe God, and was driving my relationships after lust, rather than real commitment. I have always been monogamous so never 'cheated' or anything like that. I would put my legal ex-wife in a differing category, but only because we also got legally married in addition to the other commitments we made to one another. This did make it different in a way, but mainly to man - I don't feel God would put more emphasis on my unhealthy actions in that relationship because of legal documentation, over any of the other failed relationships I've had.

I got divorced on biblical grounds. I became a Christian a couple of years into the marriage - and she was an unbeliever. She committed adultery, and left me for a 'friend' of ours while we were still together. Why am I saying all of this though? Simple fact of the matter is - you really need to analyze what you are doing in your love relationship. If you're having sex with someone and don't love them as a spouse, that's going to be an issue - regardless. It is always better to make a commitment in public also as it brings along with it accountability/public knowledge of said commitment. My whole point is this - if you willing to have sex with her, you better be willing to consider her your wife at any time; and be willing to raise a family at a moment's notice. In other words, if this woman isn't your wife, she deserves the public recognition of that title as per her partnership to you and should be your wife.

Let's say you messed up - and you had sex and aren't married yet. Get married to her if you love her like that, and if not - stop it. Else you will continue to 'burn with passion' as the Bible warns against - and without real commitment you may be driven to lust after other women. Commitment helps solidify your unity as one flesh and makes it harder to break it off for worldly reasons.

I'm a divorcee, and I'm pro-Marriage 100%

If you don't have a burning desire of passion, then cleave to the Lord as the text states; let the opposite sex out of your mind. That 'passion' is going to find some place to go, so it behooves us to listen to God's instruction and be monogamous rather than sleep around.

But if you're one of us 'passion people' - you really benefit from a solid, monogamous relationship as described in the Bible - and a Marriage is for life! The Bible talks in 1 Cr 7 about this also. Anyhow, that's my position at this time - I may be too tired to explain it all correctly, but I hope I at least didn't confuse anyone.

>^.^< -Dio

Dio,

QUOTE

I agree with a previous poster who basically put it plainly. You are married with the people you have sex with, realizing it or not! This is probably why so much emphasis is put on NOT sleeping around, and so many warnings about abstaining from the loins of harlots! He doesn't want us to be adulterer's either... so prostitutes become a big issue when looking at it this way....

If that was correct, then one could never commit adultery or fornication, because as soon as a man slept with a woman (or a woman slept with a man, which implies the other), they are "married", and the Bible says that "the marriage bed is undefiled". So, there must be something more to marriage in God's eyes than merely having sex. And, a couple can be married, without yet having had sex - I don't know of any wedding ceremony where the minister waits while the couple couple before pronouncing them "man and wife".

I think a man and woman are married, in God's eyes, when they make a verbal (or in their hearts, if they are mute, for example) commitment before God and to each other to be husband and wife. In such a case, there are "two witnesses" to the covenant: on the part of the man, the two witnesses are God and the woman; on the part of the woman, the two witnesses are God and the man. However, if the couple are to be part of society, they also need to make their marriage known publicly, else they would be guilty of living a lie, in the eyes of the public (that is, if they never told anyone they had married, then the public would view their living arrangement as adulterous and sinful). Thus, a man and woman can be considered married if they are the only two people on an island, and they make such a commitment before God and each other.

And, while the Bible does not explicitly say that pre-marital sex is wrong, it does IMPLICITLY teach that it is, when it says that "the marriage bed is undefiled". The "marriage bed" being "undefiled" directly implies that the "UNmarried bed" IS defiled. Thus, pre-marital sex is wrong, sinful.

Godsword, Dio argued that you are automatically married to someone if you have sex with them.

And Dio based his argument on a verse of the Bible, which you cutted out when you quoted him.

And you counter-argued against that, using, logic and reason.

Now, I obviously agree with you - that you're not automatically married just because you have sex with someone. Certainly anyone can use logic and reason to figure that out.

But you can't win this argument using logic and reason when someone quoted a Bible verse. You would have to debunk the Bible verse.

You could argue that Dio interpreted the Bible verse wrong, and then you will have to explain how it is the case. But you didn't do that.

But your logic and reason argument doesn't actually disprove his interpretation of the Bible verse.

Now, you also mentioned another Bible verse. Having 1 Bible verse vs. another Bible verse also doesn't resolve a debate. The fact that you can provide contradictions (if that's the case) doesn't resolve an argument.

Godsword, since you already used logic and reason for your argument, you pretty much would have said anything I would have said.

Dio, I obviously imagine you interpreted that Bible verse wrong.

But since it's already been days and you still have not replied, I think I'll stop here, for now.

Neal C.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind I Corinthians 6:9


"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge. Hebrews 13:4

Right, my point was that if you have sex with them and don't have a spousal relationship with them that it falls into the category of lusts/fornications. Does that make my explanation any more clear?

In other words those women whom I've slept with should have been my wife. Does that help you understand better what I was trying to describe? I most likely did misspeak when trying to explain it I hope this helps to make it more understandable. In other words, it was sinful for me to do so because it was lusts/fornications not passion between married persons (which is allowed - and even somewhat encouraged).

Yes.

"Legal" marriage is merely the states way of forming themselves as the third partner and authority in the incorporation. Thus becomming the controlling interest and the arbitrater in the marriage union and any thing that may result from the marriage, children for example.
In some states you will share the same status as sodomites, who have gained recognition from the state partnership and incorporation laws as well.
Religious marriages are recognized by many states. The only differance is that they have chosen to recognize them without having any interest in them. Just as we recognize other nations, but do not bind them to the same legal system that we do our own incorporated citizens.
There are many default mechanisms in place that automatically bring you and your property under the auspices of the state. They are primarily:
Social security applications
Internal revenue returns

The first document, when approved becomes the incorporation and excise contract authorized under congress and Article 10 sect 8 of the Constitution.
A person automatically recieves all of the benefits of being incorporated like student loans, health care, unemployment insurance and 105 other entitlement programs under the welfare program.

The other side of the coin is that you will be required to contribute financially via a myriad of excises, register to be shot at, fill out Censesus, 1040's... ad infinitum. The social security application is the contract that signs you up for all of these.

This is why 14 million Americans have opted out of it.
We can have children and families without all of the chains that go along with the benefits of being a U.S. Citizen. Being an American Citizen is sufficient.

State marriages are ordained at no higher level than itself.

Exactly.

So what happens when the law books use the word "marriage" and the religious text use the same word "marriage?"

Why, people will think they mean the same thing!

The problem is, it is possible to use the same word for different meanings.

When astrophysics talk about God, they mean God as the universal cause. When Muslims talk about God, they mean God from the Qu'ran. When Judaists talk about God, they mean God from their Hebrew word of the Old Testament. When Christians talk about God, they mean God mostly from the New Testament. These Gods are not compatible.

So when a law book mentions the word "marriage" and the word "marriage" is used in a verse of the Bible, every nut has every implication to mean they must be the same thing.

Then they can't differentiate between using the same word to mean different things.

Whether or not what you said anything relevant is another question.

Certainly you can paste a collection of Bible verses and hope they mean something to others.

But you didn't do just that. You quoted my post. Absolutely none of what you said addressed what I said with the possible exception for the last verse.

You have not addressed my question on what a man and a woman can do if they wanted to get married on a deserted island.

You have not addressed my issue on pre-marital sex if there was intent on getting married.

Nor have you given any of your opinion on anything you quoted - but no doubt I'm going to assume that your opinion is whatever the Bible says. Which means you can't possibly have an opinion from your own since you can't differentiate between right from wrong without the Bible.

My point was, pre-marital sex is only if you have intention of getting married.

However, I'm open enough to divide it into 2.

Suppose a boy and a girl have sex with each other, and they are not married to each other.

2 things can happen which we must know:

1.) They either intend on getting married.

Or.

2a.)They have no intention on getting married.

However, 2b.) They may eventually intend on getting married in the future, but not at the time they had sex.

I suppose you, and the majority of the people of Christian-forum, see 1 and 2a as okay, but not 2b. They see 2b as "morally wrong" or "sinful."

Correct?

Neal C.

So anyways, my grandma on my father's side who's Catholic is against pre-marital sex of course, but also from a life experience. She's always against it for as long as my Dad is alive. But she had sex before marriage. Her 1st child died at childbirth so she thought it was punishment from God. My religious sister felt believing that was weird.

Especially, since, as she told me, that according to the Bible, when you have sex with someone for the 1st time, you're technically marrying them. Then I told her no no no, I've seen several Christian statement of faiths on the Internet that said she's wrong. That pre-marital sex is an issue. Which she said they're wrong.

So anyone got any Bible verses that can prove her wrong?

I'll have to re-look at the verses Voice typed and Godsword but they're mostly about the bed shall not be undefiled.

luke 20
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

;p

normally people think about premarital sex is wrong but we cant find in bible,but manymore people not agree for the pre marital sex,and my vote is with them.
david takes bethsheba against god and begot a son but god kills his illegal son, when he married her ofter her husband death only they begot legal sons and daughters but this not like pre marital sex story. ok my friend NEAL