Though some may feel divorce is never an option for Christian couples, others believe infidelity in marriage is grounds for divorce, and still others believe that couples who divorced and remarried must now get a divorce or be guilty of continual adultery.

This was an ongoing discussion in the Bible Versions thread and some of us wanted to get it out of there so we could continue discussing translations of the Bible on that thread.

If there's any more discussion on this, let's do it here, okay?

Love, Libby

I was just about to put this in the other topic, glad you started a thread for just this topic. Anyway, here is something to read over. Just wanted to share it.

– What About Divorce and Remarriage? –

To understand the biblical teaching on divorce and remarriage, we should begin with an overview of marriage. God instituted marriage, we are told in Genesis 2:18, when he made a wife for Adam. He instructed that a man ought to leave the guardianship of his parents and cleave to his wife and become one flesh with her (Genesis 2:24). Of course, the wife should do the same. The married man and woman were then to start a new family.

God's will is for marriage to last for life — with each partner loving, honoring, caring for and cleaving to the other — just as Christ loves and cares for his church (Ephesians 5:22-33). The Bible teaches the sacredness of marital vows. "I hate divorce," the prophet says, speaking God's words (Malachi 2:16). Of course, God hates all sin, including hate, violence and pride. In that sense, divorce is no different from any other sin.

In an ideal world where human beings followed God's ways perfectly, made perfect choices in choosing their marriage partner, understood what marriage was and faithfully kept their vows, there would be no need for divorce. But we live in an imperfect world beset by human weakness, unfaithfulness, irresponsibility, people marrying the wrong person and for the wrong reasons — and other such things. People sin, and they make mistakes when picking a mate. Millions of people have been divorced.

Divorce is a fact of life in human society. (Even God divorced his bride Israel, because she persistently strayed into sin — Jeremiah 3:8.) What does a person do if he or she has been divorced? Must that person stay single and not marry? The answer is no.

Divorce is like any other sinful action. The sin is really in those conditions that created a situation in which reconciliation seemed impossible and divorce the only option. This informs us that we should not focus on the divorce itself as if this were the only sin. Rather, we should see divorce more as the final consequence of a string of sinful and mistaken behaviors that destroyed a relationship.

However, when a person repents and is converted, all his or her past sins and mistakes are forgiven (Acts 2:38; Psalm 103:1-3, 10-12). Any past sins that led to the divorce and the divorce itself would be included. The person would then be free to marry again. There is no sin in the new marriage and the sin of a past divorce is not a continuing one.

What of those who are Christian believers? Paul wrote about divorce and remarriage among Christians. He did so in the form of wise opinion based on biblical understanding regarding situations that are difficult and confused (1 Corinthians 7:12).

Paul stated that those who have been divorced ("loosed") from an unbelieving mate do not sin if they marry (verses 27-28). Paul does not advocate divorce in 1 Corinthians 7 — or anywhere else for that matter! However, Paul does write that in his view a believer who remarries after being "loosed" from an unbelieving mate does not sin. Paul shows that two ways of being "loosed" are by the departure of an unbelieving mate (verse 15) or by the death of one of the partners (verse 39).

Paul admonished the church that a converted person should not leave or divorce a mate who is pleased to continue the marriage (verses 10-13). Those who belong to Christ should obey him, not only in refraining from divorce but also in using all their resources to build a truly loving relationship (Ephesians 5:22-31; 1 Peter 3:1-7). Our earthly marriages ought to picture the great love relationship between Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:32).

However, the reality of life is that converted people also sin and create situations that lead to divorce. Or sometimes converted people made mistakes in picking a husband or wife. At other times, mates claim they want to remain married but abuse the marriage and their spouses. By their actions they demonstrate a lack of love and faithfulness. The point is that divorce, while far from God's intention or desire for humans — especially among Christian believers — does sometimes happen because of the destruction of the marriage by a mate who acts like an unbeliever.

As is true after any tragedy and dislocation of life, we must pick up the pieces and go on. For some divorced people that will mean becoming married again. Is it a sin if they remarry? The answer must be, no. True, it's not what God intended from the beginning. (He didn't intend for people to murder, steal or covet either, but they do.) True, divorce creates confusion — and so can remarriage. It can lead to children that are "hers, his and ours." But human life is that way because of our spiritually fallen and sinful condition.

Having said this in general about divorce and remarriage, how do we understand Jesus' words in Matthew 5:32? There, Jesus said: "Anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulterous, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." Obviously, we cannot apply Jesus' words in a literal manner, because then the apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 7 would contradict Jesus.

We also wouldn't want to take literally many of Jesus' words in the other sayings in this section. We wouldn't, for example, gouge out our right eye if we lust when we see a woman (verse 29).

We should also be cautioned that not everything Jesus commanded people are timeless laws. For example, during his earthly ministry Jesus told the disciples to preach only to "the lost sheep of Israel," and not the Gentiles or Samaritans (Matthew 10:6; 15:24). But after his resurrection he told them to go to Samaria and the rest of the world (Acts 1:8). During his ministry Jesus told people to offer the sacrifices specified in the Mosaic law (Matthew 8:4). But it's clear that after his death and resurrection — and the coming in of the new covenant — such religious regulations are not commanded. The book of Hebrews, for example, makes this clear.

This leads to a conclusion that we should see Jesus' teaching first in the context of his time and the people to whom he was talking. We should also understand that during his life Jesus lived as a Jew within his culture and spoke to those who were under the old covenant law. We should note that Jesus was addressing a male-dominated society, so he spoke from a man's point of view about divorce. We don't know how rampant divorce was in the Jewish society of Jesus' time, but it must have been a problem of large proportions among some groups.

That's why he had to address the divorce issue in Matthew 19:3-12 as well. Here Jesus, speaking to the Pharisees, said that divorce was permissible under the old covenant "because your hearts were hard" (19:8). Jesus made the point that this violated God's real purpose. "It was not this way from the beginning," Jesus insisted (verse 8). But it was legal and was allowed.

Jesus' strong words must be seen against the backdrop of the way many Jews treated women and marriage. William Barclay says the following in his Daily Study Bible Series commentary on Matthew, page 151:

Ideally the Jew abhorred divorce....The tragedy was that the practice fell so far short of the ideal. One thing vitiated the whole marriage relationship. The woman in the eyes of the law was a thing. She was at the absolute disposal of her father or of her husband. She had virtually no legal rights at all. To all intents and purposes a woman could not divorce her husband for any reason, and a man could divorce his wife for any cause at all. "A woman," said the Rabbinic law, "may be divorced with or without her will; but a man only with his will"...

The process of divorce was extremely simple. The bill of divorcement simply ran: "Let this be from me thy writ of divorce and letter of dismissal and deed of liberation, that thou mayest marry whatsoever man thou wilt." All that had to be done was to hand that document to the woman in the presence of two witnesses and she stood divorced.

Let us try to paraphrase the point Jesus may have been making in Matthew 5:32 in regard to such practices. He may have been saying: "You think all you have to do is give a wife you want to get rid of a certificate, and that makes your actions legal even though they are totally unjust. You simply tell her she's no longer your wife and throw her out of your house. But I tell you there's only one legitimate reason you can divorce your wife, that's for marital infidelity. Otherwise, you are nothing but an adulterer and you are causing your wife to be an adulteress."

Jesus was speaking to Jewish men of the time who used the pretext of a "certificate" to get rid of any wife they no longer wanted. That was horribly unjust, and that is what he was concerned with — the unjustness of it all. The same applies to Matthew 19:8-9 — where the Pharisees asked Jesus if the Jewish practice of divorcing their wives for whatever reason they concocted was acceptable to him (verse 3).

So we come back to our main point. The actions that lead to divorce violate God's purpose, as does every other sin, including hate, coveting, killing, lying, stealing, greed — and so on. But the fact of the matter is that we are human beings who are less than perfect, sometimes unspiritual and prone to make terrible decisions. This is why we see the exceptions Paul made in 1 Corinthians 7. That's why Jesus had to get so strong with the Jews of his day who used any pretext to divorce their wives.

Hi lovingHim,

Thank you for posting that! It provides a very balanced view and excellent insight for Christians to follow, especially: Paul admonished the church that a converted person should not leave or divorce a mate who is pleased to continue the marriage (verses 10-13). Those who belong to Christ should obey him, not only in refraining from divorce but also in using all their resources to build a truly loving relationship (Ephesians 5:22-31; 1 Peter 3:1-7). Our earthly marriages ought to picture the great love relationship between Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:32).

The point about how much of a problem divorce was in the Jewish society of Jesus' time is a valid one and we would expect some mention of couples being required to divorce their mates because of having been married before, but as you posted:

Paul stated that those who have been divorced ("loosed") from an unbelieving mate do not sin if they marry (verses 27-28). Paul does not advocate divorce in 1 Corinthians 7 — or anywhere else for that matter! However, Paul does write that in his view a believer who remarries after being "loosed" from an unbelieving mate does not sin.

Love, Libby

You are welcome Libby! God Bless!

Hi Fisher,

We moved over here to continue this discussion so I brought your last post over.

You had said in an earlier post: You folks are endorsing breaking marriages and somehow trying to claim it does not put asunder that which God has joined together!!!

The remarkable thing is, Fisher, that you're the one who is advocating divorce. Don't you see that as kind of ironic or something?

Love, Libby

well put, Libby. Here is a resource that I think is probably the best at describing divorce in the Christian Church:

Divorce and Remarriage in the Church
Biblical Solutions for Pastoral Realities

David Instone-Brewer
(Paternoster, 2003)

click this link to read it- it is available in pdf form for free.


The summary of the book is as follows:

There are actually four biblical grounds for divorce:

- Adultery
- Neglect
- Abuse
- Loss of conjugal rights

Jesus was CLEARLY against the 'any cause' divorce, which the Pharisees whee asking him abount in Matthew:

Mt 5:31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever DIVORCEs his wife, let him give her a certificate of DIVORCE.'
Mt 5:32 "But I say to you that whoever DIVORCEs his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is DIVORCEd commits adultery."

The passage the Pharisees were referring to is Deu 24:1-4:

De 24:1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of DIVORCE, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house,
De 24:3 "if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of DIVORCE, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife,
De 24:4 "then her former husband who DIVORCEd her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

The Jews were interpretting that in many cases as 'any cause', which Jesus corrected and said it was SEXUAL uncleaness, i.e., adultery.

Please read the book - it is very good and really explains a lot. I do not condone divorce, however. Husbands and wives should do ALL they can to meet the needs of the other:

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own HUSBANDS, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own HUSBANDS in everything.
Eph 5:25 HUSBANDS, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
Eph 5:28 So HUSBANDS ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. (Very key - wives need to do the same!)

1peter 3:1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own HUSBANDS, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,
1peter 3:5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own HUSBANDS,
1peter 3:7 HUSBANDS, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

We need to meet each other's needs to make the marriage work. When one side falls down on the job, i.e., needs not being met, neglect, abuse, self abuse, unfaithfulness, then the whole thing breaks.

This is a blatant heresy subtly justifying the putting asunder what God has joined together by virtue of "but we're fallen and can't help it".

As I said earlier, a marriage cannot be forgiven as the above author so adamantly maintains it can. In so doing he is forced to rape the definition of sin and apply it to marriage.

Do I for any reason whatsoever endorse the divorce from a marriage?

Libby?

You think maybe you owe me an apology for implying that I endorse a divorce from the married state? I think you know very well that I do not. Perhaps some of your friends that side with you against me who endorse divorce for adultery will also reprove you for implying that I endorse divorce from the married state.
I could not have made myself any clearer: divorce from the married state is not allowed for ANYTHING. Not for adultery or for things worse than adultery.
And not for anything less worse than adultery.

The above article is NOT balanced. It is turning the grace of God into looseness.
The damnation of those doing so slumbereth not.

But Fisher, you told me my husband and I would have to get a divorce, didn't you? That we had been divorced and remarried and now had to get another divorce -- that's what you said, wasn't it?

Love, Libby

And gr82bsaved that looks like an excellent site. It has a chapter on "Don't re-divorce, because 'two wrongs don't make a right.' Thanks so much for the link.

Love, Libby

Hey Fish,

I know that in your dogmatism you will fail to see the grace of God. But I am here to tell you that God has grace. The dogmatic application of scriptures which Jesus taught before the cross to Jews under law is taken over into the new testament and it pretty much stagnates grace which we know is the order of the day in this dispensation. If one cares to drag this theology of the doctrines of the law over into the new, why can't we draw the tithe along with it? I say because it is a a message of dogmatic convienience.

I know you will either ignore me in future or preach I am a false teacher but I could care less at this juncture, for I am sick and tired of dogmatic word preaching.

I sat in this very room 7 years ago, a defeated and broken man. I was divorced from wife number two. But I had been born of the Spirit and I was led to pray a prayer of relinquishment. I owned my portion of the problem before God, and I went one further and accepted all the responsibility. I was supposed to be the spiritual head of my household and I had failed.

I thought my prayers were going no further than the ceiling. But the Lord showed up here at my place. He spoke to me and said, "Larry, I forgive you of your former marriages as works of the flesh."

I was prepared to spend the remainder of my days alone and with God. But God gave me another lady. A Christian who prayed and was told by God, "Larry will be your husband." There are too many details and I will not bore you with my miracles. Suffice it to say I also recieved an outpouring of love from the Lord so great I nigh melted away to nothing he was so strong upon me as He confirmed my wife's vision with one of my own.

I have been married pushing 7 years now and it has been a blessing beyond belief and I am not afraid of meeting an angry judging God when it is over for me.

Now hear me....

I am not saying that this is God's best and I am not saying go for it to anyone else to divorce...but I am saying there are times when God reaches down, for he would not see us destroyed for our mistakes...I am blessed and God is using both of us. I have everything to live for. I am not under some judgment for covenant breaking.

No one will ever preach to me about dogmatic word interpretation again in this life, and this is just one reason why..

Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Who
Wow, God has give you many gifts that you have shown here. God gave yoou one special gift, your wife.
You are blessed by your gifts. I enjoy them so much and thankful for you on the forum.
kim

I will tell you plainly Kim. I love you and God loves you and I have been sent as a messenger of grace in this time of human created religion and in the misery it spreads. I will be defamed for it and hung on a peg to dry but I will do as I am told by God, for it is a risk of discipleship to be bold enough to take authority over religion which kills by the letter at every turn.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Love you and thank you...

Hi Fisher, I found this at the other thread:




I didn't want to bring over the part where you said I was doomed to the lake of fire for not getting a divorce.

My husband and I have decided that we won't divorce; there are too many people who would be hurt, stumbled, and we feel it would not be a very good witness for Jesus to break up our marriage. But most of all, with all due respect to your belief that God is telling you this, I talk to him all the time and he's never mentioned it.

Love, Libby

Dear Whosoever, what a powerful testimony! I'm so glad to hear others speak out about this; at one point I was afraid this was a wide spread teaching in the churches, Christian couples having to get divorced because they had been married before.... really a shocking thing!

So many have spoken up and given such good counsel and insight. Warms my heart and fills my eyes and renews my soul!

Love, Libby

Libby
Hummmmmm I talk to him also and Jesus told me my sin are as far away as the East is to the West. He also told I'm forgiven. Can I shout now.
What is so great about it is this was the first time God spoke to me in a voice I could hear. The sweetest voice I have ever heard.
kim

[quote=kim48,Sep 26 2005, 11:07 PM]
[quote=Libby,Sep 26 2005, 10:59 PM]Hi Fisher, I found this at the other thread:

[quote="Fisher"]The remarriage has to be brought to an end. The divorced from the lawful marriage must divorce from this unlawful marraige and either be reconciled to their first and lawful spouse or live singly as Paul exhorted the separated wife in 1 Cor. 7

Ignorant cruelty will counsel to continue in the remarriage as if all is forgiven and the adultery of the second marriage is not adultery while as the first spouse lives. Those doing this are better off to hang a millstone aroung their neck and be cast into the sea.

Jesus means exactly what he says. Remarriage is adultery.
Adultery is comdemned. [/quote]

I have to admit I struggled with Matthew 19:9 for years -

Mt 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." (Modern KJV)

Simply because the information presented indicates that outside of sexual immorality, a divorce is not permitted NO MATTER WHAT. I was troubled by this because of two things: 1., my mom has been divorced three times, and 2. what about abuse and neglect? Does the Lord REALLY want people to stay in abusive, horrible marriages? Is divorce the 'unforgivable sin'? I don't think so....

I am not divorced. I have been married for 15 years. I can't say it has always been terrific - money issues, family issues, health issues (my wife has an eating disorder that has caused a great turmoil in our marriage of late, but by the GRACE and MERCY of our LORD JESUS CHRIST - who's GRACE is enough to endure - I have not given in to the temptations that befall me all the time) - but it has been in the top three of the most wonderful parts of my life.

However, what about the idea that marriage is for a lifetime no matter what except for adultery? Should a woman who is subject to abuse by her husband be forced to stay in the marriage until he kills her? What good is that? She can forgive him time and again, but if he keeps harming her, how does that glorify God? No one that I have ever talked to or read about this has EVER answered that question to my satisfaction, biblically.

While I think that scenario is the exception and not the rule, JESUS did say that Moses provided for divorce because of "heart-hardness", meaning that GOD prefers we forgive an erring partner rather than seek a divorce. However, if a partner keeps beating the other, then I believe that the marriage should end. Abuse, neglect, denial of conjugal rights (which leads to adultery) and adultery itself are the only biblical grounds I can find that GOD allows for a divorce to take place, and you have to be careful with those as well, since some would jump and say "My conjugal rights have been denied by my wife" because they did not have sex for three days in a row. Divorce is GOD's last choice for us - but HE will surely not condemn us to an eternal lake of fire because of it. If HE did, that means JESUS got it worng - the UNFORGIVABLE SIN is not blasphemy of the HOLY SPIRIT, but that AND ADULTERY! That is not what JESUS said at all...

Hi gr82bsaved, I love the name you use!!

This whole discussion has caused me to value my husband and our marriage even more and I can't thank you enough for the link you provided. To now divorce the man I love and try to be a wife to someone I don't love and who doesn't love me, to cause this needless and selfish pain to our children and families and friends is too great for us to bear and if that condemns us then we've decided the condemnation will be on us for NOT divorcing rather than for stumbling someone away from Christ Jesus which would condemn them.

Re-divorce truly is a teaching that will tear apart the fabric of the Christian community as surely as it tears apart marriages. I can't even imagine a pastor telling the congregation that remarried couples are to seek divorces from their present mates because God doesn't recognize their marriage as being valid and considers them still married to their former mates. True, there might be those who are looking for a way out of their present marriage anyway so they would welcome the pastor's admonition to get divorced, but overall I believe Christian couples would be mortified [as we were] to be told we had to get a divorce for adultery.

I just realized something, Fisher IS allowing adultery as grounds for divorce......being with my husband is adultery against my ex-husband so we have to get a divorce. This is so weird.

Love, Libby

Whosoever, thank you for sharing your testimony. You have been blessed! God is good!

I have to ask for those of you who are saying divorce is unforgivable. If sin is sin in the eyes of God then why did Jesus say to the the robber who was hung with him that "Truly, I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise" Did not this robber break one of the 10 commandmnets? Jesus must have forgiven him. You imply that Jesus is not able to forgive. I know that my Jesus LOVES and is forgiving. Did Jesus not say to forgive 70X7 in one day. Can Jesus not forgive if we ask him to? Did he also say not to judge? For God knows the hearts of his people. I agree Jesus was not for divorce BUT if someone has been divorced and we seek His forgivness he will forgive. If you read Revalations does he not give all churches he writes to time to repent off the sin they have fallen into? This is the CHURCHES he is talking to. His people. He is telling them to repent, why? So he can forgive them!!

I also say there are many many divorced in church. The battle scars have been piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow...

I will not believe God is not working in and through these people. "Bless God, maybe even me."

I have to wonder if these people who preach condemnation would change their tune if divorce comes nudging into their comfortable pews where they dogmatically sit chewing the cud of respectability...

The Lord will not see us condemened for our past mistakes. Indeed, there is only one unforgiveable sin, and that is open to interpretation somewhat.

To not accept the divorced, is to go into the hen house and to take out all the chickens who are laying good eggs and throw them out like they had avian flu. God is with us even in this. Not his best, but He is a loving God. There are many experiences in marriage which bring suffocation to the spirit, if divorced people are not accepted before God. What a horrible dogmatic teaching to suppose the God of ALL GRACE (I Pet 5:10) will take a word Jesus preached in the context of "before calvary" to Jews He knew would reject Him and therefore be bound to the letter of the law, (for if Christ is dissallowed and rejected you are under law by default) and carry it forward to the exclusion of His precious blood which was shed that we might have redemption. I am not preaching "greasy grace" here, but a realistic grace from God who's love for us is without measure....

These same dogmatic word preachers accept the law of Moses as respecting marriage and bring it into contemporary obedience and fail to acknowledge the necessity of bringing the rest of the law with them, as per tithing as an example. The bible teaches it has to be all law if you go that route. Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

To this day we have to make our choice...blood of Christ, or law of Moses...there are only two plans of salvation and God Himself has shown us that obedience to the letter is impossible..

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Great2bsaved pointed out....


Any cause

Reading various culture commentaries and history books spoke of Jewish culture (the men primarily) divorcing on a whim.... Jesus wasn't for divorce, but he was definitely against divorcing for the heck of it....

two recorded examples mentioned:

burning toast
and better looking woman coming along




Weren't jewish husbands required to satisfy his wife... like on Friday night?

Believing is required for salvation.

Jesus said:

"but when that "light" that is in you is really "darkness"....
how DEEP that darkness is! -Matthew 6:23.


God's Mercy shall triumph victoriously over judgment, fisher.


and you made "the children" cry.... for three days, one cried.....
---one of the precious children CRIED for THREE DAYS, fisher....
---over your words........




as for "believing"? the demons believe and shudder.
and it their judgment that is not slumbering.

Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come! Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

This scripture seems appropriately dogmatic to me...

I always take serious any councel that might encourage or justify another in their sins, however, I cannot but help agreeing with whosoever in this statement: (And if he is wrong may He show me!)




Are we to make remarriage the unpardonable sin?

To me it is better to simply say, "Whatsoever a man shall sow that shall he also reap!" But to say that 'once one is remarried that it is beyond forgiveness unless they divorce,' simply does not make sense to me when taking all of the bible into consideration.

What about king David?

Is he not a testiment to both the mercy and severity of God in this matter?

As far as I can see it, any marriage or divorce before conversion to Christ is not counted against a man at all. "He is to remain in whatever state he finds himself," even if that means he was on his 10th marriage. But if a believer marries and divorces and then remarries--- well, I can only leave that between them and the Lord. It is a serious thing. And they will suffer for it. But to make it the unpardonable sin unless they repent (meaning to divorce) --- even though it means hurting a whole household of kids --- I can't see it! But if I am wrong may our Lord show me, and may He show us! "For God has called us to peace."

Just one of the many broken record types of responses all claiming the same thing: marriage can be looked upon as something that can be held against you.
That makes lawful marriage forgivable which makes it a sin if you so choose to make it a sin. Very convenient.

Now that is blasphemy.

The unstable have found an unstable legalist (falsely interpreted) loophole which will only result in being instrumental in the hanging of themselves.

God's word through the revelation of truth via Jesus in the NT versus the words of emotion and reasons outside of scripture.

You lose.

Divorce and remarriage is adultery.

Anyone out there divorced from a lawful marriage and remarried?
You are committing adultery.

Jesus could not have made it any clearer. And the exception clause, which was in reality a form of emphasising that marriage is for life so that the only way a man can divorce is if he does it before the marriage, has been turned upside down by foolish teachers to be a loophole to allow divorce which is directly against the context and mode of Jesus' words where he made that exception!

So the sermon on the mount is not for Gentiles? Who dares say such ignorance? Must believers bow at your feet and ask permission to what they may believe pertains to them from the sermon on the mount?
How about turn the other cheek?
Also not popular.
Oh well, then go back to what your flesh wants to do and justify an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth by what Moses wrote and in so doing reveal the speaking of lies in hypocracy as you accuse me of pushing obsolete OT laws when in reality it is some of you who are lying about me and who are the ones justifying yourselves from the law contrary to the new and better way revealed by Jesus.

Through the eyes of the unbelieving, to whom Jesus is the stumblingblock, Jesus' way is not better; as evidenced by the opposition his teaching of the sanctity of marriage is receiving on this thread.
Moses allowed it for the hardness of the heart and was not from the beginning; yet it is now favoured as acceptible by the ignorant to the point that lawful marriage can now be regarded as sin in order to justify the remarriage after the divorce!!
Can you not see the demons of hypocracy in what some of you are doing?

Those of you justifying the divorce from the lawful spouse and the subsequent remarriage have departed from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of a devil that speak lies in hypocracy and that turns lawful marriage into sin.

Unlawful marriage, such as some of you are involved in because your first and lawful spouses are still alive?
Well, those marriages are sin and should be repented and turned from. Yes, they can be forgiven for they are sin. But as in any sin, the refusal to acknowledge it as such means there can be no forgiveness as one who continually steals, kills, gets drunk or is an idolater etc.

Adultery is one in that list of sins that if lived in will result in the person not inheriting the kingdom of God. So it is not an issue of remarriage being an unforgiveable sin, it is an issue of maintaining a sin to not be a sin and therefore refusing to repent of a sin that can be forgiven.

Remarriage, after the divorce of the lawful spouse is adultery, as Jesus plainly said.
Adulterers and adulteresses shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Let it be known to all teachers contradicting this basic Christian teaching;
You are offending Jesus' little ones who are being led to damnation by your false teaching. You are offending His little ones. Their blood will be on your hands as being responsible for them not inheriting the kingdom because of your counsel. Some of His people will be destroyed for lack of knowledge and it is those of you responsible for depriving them of knowledge through your ignorance who will be held accountable.

Mark 10:2-12 means exactly what it appears to plainly mean, as written, without need of adding anything thereto.

fisher has pontificated from his eagle's perch...

>>>Just one of the many broken record types of responses all claiming the same thing: marriage can be looked upon as something that can be held against you. That makes lawful marriage forgivable which makes it a sin if you so choose to make it a sin. Very convenient. Now that is blasphemy.<<<

Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, [thou] whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?

Well my mr Fisher, you are going to see these words of yours return upon your own head. Talk about broken record reponses! The words of scripture are a record indeed! Not broken, but kept in testimony of both the grace and severity of God. If you cannot accept the grace principal you will get severity. As a man judges so he will be judged. You are a preacher of the law. I will "err" on the side of grace. I myself am speaking from subjective experience. Others may be wrapping their minds around the interpretation of words, but I am surrounded around and about by the love of God which has visited me in a powerful outflow of grace apart from inquisition.

One thing that annoys me as I look at your profile. You have supplied no information whatsoever about yourself. So people are now supposed to inhabit your decrees of blasphemy against a man, (even the leader of the forum whose quote you have extrapolated ) and meantime, you could be anywhere between the Pope and a teenager who wants to make life hard on others just to see them squirm. Anyone who wants to stand on a platform like you do should be willing to give account of himself also. Believe me, I have seen that in the past from characters. I doubt that is the case with you, but there is room for inquiry.

I have been saved a few years, have studied the word and have had it jump up and minister to me in powerful ways. You are in the Spirit, a doctor of the law unto whom God would say, Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. And indeed, that is precisely what you are doing. Shutting others out of the Kingdom amid decrees that they are unfit for salvation.

I said somewhere in this thread that it would be interesting what kind of sound would come from you if you were entirely smitten by the sociological dysfunction of a divorce. It is easy to be smug in dogmatic theology unless you have been trampled underfoot by sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

>>>Divorce and remarriage is adultery.<<<

And unforgiveable also, LOL...

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

I suppose to you the last verse here, says "a sin" not unto death, so it could be dogmatically interpreted that there is one sin which allows us to escape...wonder which one you would choose...certainly not adultery. I am reminded of the woman taken in adultery, she was given grace from Christ to go and sin no more. Living in a second marriage is not continuing in sin.

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST IS BIGGER THAN ADULTERY

You are a slaughterhouse of venom and it gives me pleasure to announce before all that for all of your head knowledge, you have no heart for people and I will from this point forward and without further ado set you free into the honour roll of ignored users...be loosed from your afliction of cold assurance against the children of God.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

In closing, just got to ask you this..if two sodomites marry and subsequently divorce, of which sin will they be judged?

whosoever.

Hi Shekel,

As I understand the unpardonable sin, there's 'no forgiveness for it now or in the age to come', so in actuality if there's something we can do about the sin to gain forgiveness then it's no longer unpardonable. But to compound one divorce with yet another to 'correct' that divorce doesn't make sense to me either. I agree with you and the others who have come forward in the mercy of God and He is who I look to forgiveness for all my sins.

Dear Fisher, do you realize you're the only one on here so far who has told me I have to get a divorce in order to be forgiven? I know it's because you say my remarriage is not a marriage at all in God's eyes, but that has put you in the position of advocating, almost demanding, the very thing you are so opposed to, and that's divorce. Wouldn't it be better to counsel Christian couples in this situation to NOT seek another divorce but to build up and apply Christian principles in their marriage to make it strong and lasting? To minister to one another as though to the Lord and to draw close to Him, seeking forgiveness for any and all sins? Wouldn't that be a wiser and healthier choice for the Christian community?

You see from scriptures that divorce is allowed for infidelity. To apply that to a premarital committment ONLY when those whom Jesus was speaking to considered the premarital state as strongly as the marriage itself, would, to me be a misapplication of scripture. Nor do I believe separating or divorcing an unfaithful mate shows unforgiveness. I know one can forgive a mate for doing this and yet still separate from them -- I have in fact lived it, just as Whosoever has lived God's truth in his life. I forgave immediately and would have continued in the marriage if my ex-husband had agreed to give her up. But he was unwilling to agree to that so we divorced.

God's hand was in my remarriage in answer to my sister's prayers which to me confirmed His will in this. There are a whole host of confirmations that He has given me throughout these 23 years of marriage that this is the man I'm to spend my life with, and eternity if it comes to that. So if we divorced I would still be committing adultery because this is the man I'd be wanting and to think it is a sin just as much as doing it.

The most powerful confirmation has come from within, from what God has confirmed in my heart that this is His will in my life, and conscience just will not allow me to go against that.

Let there be peace between us.

Love, Libby

Fisher,
I have ask you alot of questions but never any answers.
One of the things I have noticed is your from the the same time zone that I'm from. Yet, you only get on here late at night like 11 or 12 at night. If you are on earlier than that like when we are on the forum, you accuse us of being friends. Fisher, we are friends. We are also a family.
Are we the only one's you have to talk to about your beliefs? I know you have been on other forums addressing the same thing but, do you have family and friends you talk to about your beliefs in marriage?
Sometimes it is a lonely world when know one will listen to you.
Do you feel like you have judge us? Have you ever gone to anyone and said Please forgive me?
Fisher you cant change my belief and I cant change your beliefs so why do you feel the need to attack?
I will pray for you to have comfort and peace today and every day.
Kim

Hi Fisher,
I see your posts and cringe. I can not believe how legaistic you seem to be. Instead of being helpful, you remind me of the the following verse:

Mt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Mt 23:14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

Mt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. "

I have said earlier this week that there are four biblical grounds for divorce, which are:

- Neglect
- Abuse
- Loss of conjugal rights
- Adultery

I presented the evidence in a link I found that was posted earlier this week as well. Did you read it? I think that you are confused, Brother. You are telling people that because they remarry, they are living an adulterous life style and will be condemned. I don't think that JESUS CHRIST our LORD meant that a remarried divorcee is headed to hell because of the remarriage! Please read the online book that I have linked to and THEN come back and tell us your comments.

I believe that the HOLY SPIRIT enables believers to NOT committ adultery. I believe the HOLY SPIRIT enables believers to perfom miracles, talk in tongues, heal the sick, and receive spiritual gifts. I also believe that CHRIST died for ALL of my sins, past, present, future. How about you, Fisher? Is that what you believe? If JESUS died for only our past and present sins when we become believers, than what good is it to be a believer? therefore, if you sin after becoming a believer, you are out of the club, so to speak. But that would be the LAW all over again! No one can go a day without sinning in some way, shape or form. The law is what tells us that we have fallen short of the glory of GOD, but the SALVATION we receive from JESUS CHRIST our LORD upon belief in HIM is what gets us to Eternity. It HAD to be that way - we can not do it ourselves. So, here is the question: If the remarriage was a sin to begin with, and the remarried divorce and then get back together with the original spouse, then the remarried has sinned three times! First, the divorce itself. Second, the divorce from the current spouse. Third, the original spouse committs adultery because they will be married to someone else's spouse. Kinda makes your head spin, don't it?

JESUS sinned against the LAW - look:

Lu 13:16 "So ought not this WOMAN, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound-think of it-for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"

Was he to be stoned to death or killed because he did that? NO! GOD would not allow it because HE is the LORD of the SABBATH!

JESUS talked to the Samaritan woman who had 5 husbands - and did not reject her - look:

Joh 4:7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink."

Joh 4:8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.

Joh 4:9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

Joh 4:11 The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water?

Joh 4:12 "Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?"

Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again,

Joh 4:14 "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

Joh 4:15 The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw."

Joh 4:16 Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here."

Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You have well said, 'I have no husband,'

Joh 4:18 "for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly."

Joh 4:19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.

Joh 4:20 "Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."

Joh 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Joh 4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

Joh 4:23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

Joh 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Joh 4:25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."

Joh 4:26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

Joh 4:27 And at this point His disciples came, and they marveled that He talked with a woman; yet no one said, "What do You seek?" or, "Why are You talking with her?"

Joh 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, went her way into the city, and said to the men,

Joh 4:29 "Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?"

Joh 4:30 Then they went out of the city and came to Him.

Did JESUS reject her because she had 5 husbands? No! HE talked to her EVEN though she as a SAMARITAN, kind of an outcast of the Jews. JESUS was willing to give her the water of everlasting life. If she received it and then sinned again, do you think that JESUS would take it away? I can not find anything (except for the unpardonable sin) that would cause someone to lose the gift of SALVATION.

That why your legalistic opinion falls down. You need to lighten up and take a breath...

[quote=gr82bsaved,Sep 28 2005, 08:19 AM]
[Hi Fisher,

>>>I see your posts and cringe. I can not believe how legaistic you seem to be.

snipped

I also believe that CHRIST died for ALL of my sins, past, present, future.. <<<

snipped

gr82bsaved,

Sorry for taking out the meat you present here but I wanted to focus on this word of scripture to back up your statement I have quoted...

Joshua 3:16 That the waters which came down from above stood [and] rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that [is] beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, [even] the salt sea, failed, [and] were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho

Edited in ("THIS JUST IN") The Lord is showing me to look at John 3:16 as a companion verse to Joshua 3:16...Isn't that just like God?

This has prophetic import from God Almighty...

Note that the waters come down from above (also 1 John 5:6) They ROSE UP (Jesus went to Heaven again)

The waters of the Jordan backed up to a town named Adam...coincidence? NO! The redemptive plan of God went forward into contemporary times but also back to Adam. All men in history fall under the covenant God made with Himself in Christ.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath: Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Heb 6:19 Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Mankind has "passed over" (from law to grace)...bondage to promise and come against Jericho. The walls have come down!!

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

This truly is of God....

Amen & Amen!! I also had posted about the woman with 5 husbands at the well. For some reason Fisher is blinded to this teaching.

Fisher, I'll just say that you do not know much about God's grace. He is such a GOD OF MERCY, and my heart aches when I read your words. My spirit sighs. To know God is to understand how much he LOVES us and wants to be our friend. He is our Abba Father and friend.
I must ask... how was your relationship with your parents??
I know that God, in His wisdom, will reveal this part of Himself to you. We don't understand how much others need mercy until we need it ourselves.

Loving & J,
Thanks for chiming in. I think the very cool point to it all is exactly like J said, and this the mercy of God. JESUS was merciful to the woman whom HE healed on the Sabbath, and he was merciful to the Samaritan woman in offering the water to everlasting life.

Lastly, we ALL need MERCY from our LOVING GOD. Without it, we all perish. We need it everyday. In fact, that reminds me of a few verses:

La 3:22 Through the Lord's mercies we are not consumed, Because His compassions fail not.
La 3:23 They are new every morning; Great is Your faithfulness.
La 3:24 "The Lord is my portion," says my soul, "Therefore I hope in Him!"

and

La 3:25 The Lord is good to those who wait for Him, To the soul who seeks Him.
La 3:26 It is good that one should hope and wait quietly For the salvation of the Lord.

and

Isa 43:18 "Do not remember the former things, Nor consider the things of old.
Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing, Now it shall spring forth; Shall you not know it? I will even make a road in the wilderness And rivers in the desert.

GOD's MERCY and GRACE is as deep as it is wide...

Praise be to the WORD of GOD, our Lord and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST!

All,
I am home sick today, so i have time to post alot this afternoon.
I thank the LORD for the opportunity to be a part of this forum - I LOVE IT! I feel like I could talk to any of you like a friend. GLORY TO GOD!

I pray for you Fisher. May God Himself reveal to you the mercy and forgivness, that is new every monring, that he extends to everyone who believes in his son. For His word says that God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should perish but have eternal life.
He did not say only the sinless or the undivorced would have eternal life but those who believe Jesus is the son of God. If those who are called by My name would humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and heal their land. II Chronicles 7:14 Now these are God's people. God loves His children, and if we ask him to forgive us from our sins he will cleanse us. How can you NOT see this. Do you not believe that God forgives when we ask him to? If not then NOONE would be going to heaven. For we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God!! May God open your spiritual eyes to His TRUE love and mercy.

Sorry your sick. Hope you are better tomorrow.
Yes, its great to be around friends.
kim

Even the devils believe and tremble. What is necessary is not to believe only that He is, but also what he taught. Those of you endorsing putting asunder that which God has joined together simply do not believe Jesus. And your understanding of grace that contradicts believing in His words is not the true grace of God but a grace that changes it to a loose endorsing of sin instead of a force that opposes sin.
Remarriage is sin, but since your concept of grace is messed up you cannot appreciate the opposition to that sin. ---. 2:11-14
I am then the offender for standing with Jesus like John the Baptist who lost his head for also standing for this truth.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend. The most loving thing anyone can do to those remarried from their lawful spouses is to inform them of the wages of living in the sin of adultery. Painful now, yes, but the escape from damnation is well worth it.

Moses chose to not enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

But without faith it cannot be appreciated that decision to abandon adultery as Moses abandoned Egypt. Heb. 11

Fisher,
I dont know what to think now. I have sent you a personal message. No reply. Hummmm
One reason could be you just want to argue just for the sake of an argument.
Two, am I dirty to you because I have remarried?
Three, is this just a place for you to get on and rant?
You know you did this on another forum. Do you not like for me to talk about it?
Are you angry because someone left you? This is a pay back for you
You are cared for on this forum.
I said a prayer for you today.
Kim

Fisher,
Did you read the online book that my post linked to? If not, are you afraid it will change your mind? Why are you so set on this topic anyway? I wonder if someone did something to you and you are hurting. If so, we will all pray that your heart will be healed.

You keep harping on remarriage (adultery in your mind). What about OTHER sexual sins? Paul wrote:

1co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

1co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

1co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Fornicators, homosexuals, sodomites - these are all sexual sins as well.

What if an unmarried believer in Christ gets pregnant due to passion that gets a hold of her and she gives in ( it can happen!)- should she get an abortion so that she is not living in the sin of fornication because of the child she helped create? With your logic and perspective she would have to because the child was conceived in sin! The answer is obviously NO!

So why in the world would you tell someone who is now remarried that they have to leave their current spouse and return to their first spouse because they are living in the sin of adultery? What about THEIR children? What happens to them? Where does it say that ANYWHERE in the BIBLE - OLD or NEW TESTAMENT - that one needs to do that? I can't find it. Perhaps you could whip out your bible and show me. And while you are looking it up, rediscover that the LORD JESUS CHRIST offers a continuous flow of MERCY, GRACE and FORGIVENESS - it does not stop for the believer. Please consider that as you are looking...

Spurgeon's Daily Reading AM
Leviticus 13:13
Behold, if the leprosy have covered all his flesh, he shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague.

Strange enough this regulation appears, yet there was wisdom in it, for the throwing out of the disease proved that the constitution was sound. This morning it may be well for us to see the typical teaching of so singular a rule. We, too, are lepers, and may read the law of leper as applicable to ourselves. When a man sees himself to be altogether lost and ruined, covered all over with the defilement of sin, and no part free from pollution; when he disclaims all righteousness of his own, and pleads guilty before the Lord, then is he clean through the blood of Jesus, and the grace of God. Hidden, unfelt, unconfessed iniquity is the true leprosy, but when sin is seen and felt it has received its death blow, and the Lord looks with eyes of mercy upon the soul afflicted with it. Nothing is more deadly than self-righteousness, or more hopeful than contrition. We must confess that we are "nothing else but sin," for no confession short of this will be the whole truth, and if the Holy Spirit be at work with us, convincing us of sin, there will be no difficulty about making such an acknowledgment--it will spring spontaneously from our lips. What comfort does the text afford to those under a deep sense of sin! Sin mourned and confessed, however black and foul, shall never shut a man out from the Lord Jesus. Whosoever cometh unto Him, He will in no wise cast out. Though dishonest as the thief, though unchaste as the woman who was a sinner, though fierce as Saul of Tarsus, though cruel as Manasseh, though rebellious as the prodigal, the great heart of love will look upon the man who feels himself to have no soundness in him, and will pronounce him clean, when he trusts in Jesus crucified. Come to Him, then, poor heavy-laden sinner, Come needy, come guilty, come loathsome and bare; You can't come too filthy--come just as you are.

gr8.

i knew of this....i wrote of it before on a different forum.

and TODAY.....

today you bring this gift to me.........this, concerning the complete leper.

thank you thankyou....

i am crying...for i know that there is NOTHING GOOD that dwells in my flesh.

it has brought me to tears.

bz

and i am not completely white...

but i am completely RED.

what is black and white and red all over?

a sun burned zebra

a bloody zebra

a newspaper.

and i am am red with anger.
and i am red with passion.

and i despise myself.

Hear this, you fisher!!
Woe unto thee, thou sad Pharisee, for, unless you repent! you will be as welcome as a fart in the queen's bedchamber!

You are welcome, my friend. The LORD showed it to me, and I had to post it this morning. I am glad HE spoke to you.

I hate this subject!!!

People who get divorced put their own happiness first. It's just that simple.
(Unless in abuse cases and sometimes adultery).

They want this life to bring them happiness and they need a spouse to help them.

Now you can all hate me!!!

I've stayed with it and everytime l hear somebody talk about how happily remarried they are it makes me puke.

Hi Miki,

Please stay with it just a little bit longer, okay?

I don't hate you, I don't hate Fisher.

It doesn't sound like you'd counsel those of us who did remarry to get a divorce, though, would you? Fisher is in the unhappy situation of counseling Christians to do what he is as adamantly against as you are: divorce.

What is the solution for someone such as myself who remarried after divorce? Recognize it as a sin, as adultery, ask God for forgiveness -- and then divorce my husband?

That is the solution that Fisher proposes. Do you, too?

Unfortunately if Fisher were in the position of pastoring a church, what would many of the couples in his church find themselves uncompromisingly faced with having to do? It would be to get divorced, wouldn't it?

I'm glad to see that you did make some allowance for abuse and adultery, so I'll hazard a guess that you feel adultery is grounds for divorce permitting remarriage?
Love, Libby

Miki,
I am no fan of it either. I am not divorced, but I do think that GOD allows for only four real reasons to allow it. It was never meant to be done out of "unhappiness" - I hate the word "unhappy" because it is a fickle emotion filled with selfish, greedy motives. Happiness is temporary, while joy, the kind we get from the HOLY SPIRIT, is everlasting. My desire is that people will understand that we need to lean on the HOLY SPIRIT and not on ourselves when our marriages hit a rocky point.

I also want people to know that divorce does not equal hell and damnation! GOD's grace seems so misunderstood. Believers in JESUS CHRIST the LORD do not automatically become sinless super beings that do everything right and follow GOD's will from the start - indeed, most Christians need to learn how to follow the leading of the HOLY SPIRIT as they progress through their walk with JESUS. It takes time. That being said, sometimes they do get divorced, and I think statements about the divorced and remarried being damned to Hell is not true. Why just that sin? I think it is important to discuss that....

None of this needs to fly in the face of those who have "stuck with it." To those who have stuck it out be the greater glory. But "sticking with it" is not an obvious automatic reason for those who have failed in marriage to therefore fall through the cracks into ignominy with God. To believe that is to relegate multiplied thousands to the spiritual slag heap and in so doing, solemnly declare these folks (like me) to be beyond redemption and of no value to God. I find that detestable. There are many marriages which are spawned as works of the flesh, and therefore subject to forgiveness, even as any other work of the flesh (sin)

Has no one noticed that God is in the forgiveness business?

You're right, adultery via remarriage is not the only sin that will put a person in hell.
In 1 Cor. 6:9 Paul mentions a number of sins that if a person is living in as a lifestyle will put that person in hell.
In Gal. 5 Paul makes another long list of things the flesh does that will put those who do those things in hell. Adultery is listed in both of these lists of sins.
Jesus, in establishing the better and new covenant defined adultery as that which is being committed by those who are remarried. The NT reveals that "adultery" has an expanded definition. It is not limited to what it was commonly understood to mean under the OT.

Why is remarriage adultery?
Because the divorce has not dissolved the marriage. If the divorce dissolved the marriage then Jesus would not have said that marrying the divorced is adultery.
It is adultery because the marriage is NOT dissolved by the divorce.
Therefore the divorced couple in God's eyes are still just as married as the day they got married.

But there are those here professing Jesus who do not believe him. They do not believe that whosoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery as Jesus plainly said. They also do not believe that if a wife divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery by so doing. Adultery is having sex with someone other than your rightful spouse.

Those refusing to believe the plain words of Jesus should stop professing to be believers in Him. They are not true believers. If they were they would deny themselves and take up their cross and abandon adultery and the condoning of adultery for the sake of the salvation of their souls in accordance with Jesus' words.

Those of you condoning and committing adultery are lukewarm. He doesn't want you in your present state. Repent of your heresy and unbelief and being friends of the world and His enemies and then come to him and bear his name worthily.
You are not bearing his name worthily therefore he would that you would not bear it; that you would not put forth yourselves as his mouthpiece. You are not fit to be there. That is why he says he will spue the lukewarm out of his mouth.
It is an absolute shame that so many churces have not the knowledge or the guts to stand against the flood of adultery plaguing this country and the world.
Yet the scriptures must be fulfilled. Adultery was also rampant in the days of Noah prior to the flood. It was one of the things prompting God to destroy the world.
Satan is laughing as he has those who are bringing on the destruction of the world by their adultery, professing to be the representatives of the Son of God, but who are in reality an adulterous generation.

Either stop endorsing or committing adultery by remarriage or get his name out of your mouth. He doesn't want it there as your desecration of the sanctity of marriage, as defined by its definition and pattern as found in Adam and Eve's marriage, misrepresents Him.

Grace teaches the denial of self and the submission of our will to His as stated in Titus 2:11-14.
The "grace" referred to above by some that claim that the formal lawful marriage is a sin in order to manufacture forgiveness of the marriage so as to justify the remarriage is by no means "grace" defined by the scriptures. It is Satan's counterfeit grace designed to destroy the simple foolish enough to embrace it.

Who says:

None of this needs to fly in the face of those who have "stuck with it." To those who have stuck it out be the greater glory. But "sticking with it" is not an obvious automatic reason for those who have failed in marriage to therefore fall through the cracks into ignominy with God. To believe that is to relegate multiplied thousands to the spiritual slag heap and in so doing, solemnly declare these folks (like me) to be beyond redemption and of no value to God. I find that detestable. There are many marriages which are spawned as works of the flesh, and therefore subject to forgiveness, even as any other work of the flesh (sin)

Has no one noticed that God is in the forgiveness business?

"Stayed" ....not stuck.

Amazing how my right choice seems to make me the bad guy.

Because l've made that choice doesn't mean l automatically think God doesn't forgive you. I'm not a self righteous person that thinks you can't be redemed. I didn't say it nor do l think it.

I hate divorce! Period. I think people get divorced because their happiness comes first and they rely on their spouse to bring it to them.

It sets a horrible example and has done a hideous work to destroy our children and this nation. I'm declaring it for what it is. Nobody said there wasn't forgivness and redemption.

I've had to sit in Bible study after Bible study and listen to these pathetic bleeding heart stories over and over again. l can remember being pulled off to the side and told how God had blessed their second marriage and how glad they were to be out of the first. If l struggled l was even encouraged to consider this option.

God lets us have our way...We rationalize to think everything's ok. It's human nature and l don't think l'm above it in other areas of my own life.

GR82be....

You said "My desire is that people will understand that we need to lean on the HOLY SPIRIT and not on ourselves when our marriages hit a rocky point".

Rethink what you've said here????? We need to lean on the Holy Spirit and NOT our marriage.

Look friends...It's not about the person you're married to. It never was. That's what we need to be redemed from. This false relying on another person. Thats the adultery.

And anyway, l could never understand why people that went through the nightmare of a divorce would EVER want to turn around and marry again?? But that's just my thing. Many do. But if they didn't it would sure settle all the questions about remarriage.