There is no need to add comments, unless you want to. I just am curious where everyone stands on this. The more I read, the more confused I get. This is my greatest search in the Bible (along with trying to understand the book of Revelation). Thank you in advance for voting. I did not realize that this topic was so controversial.

Please, if someone does add comments below, be kind and respectful to each other.

I added my vote to the poll but it truly doesn't matter what I think. This is a decision you must make for it is your soul.


Should anyone die before the time of the end then believing in the rapture or not doesn't matter. The problem with the rapture doctrine, the danger of this doctrine, is that folks are told they will be flown away before the tribulation. As shown in God's Word....that ISN'T TRUE. But, they aren't taught that and consequently will be unprepared for the deception of Satan standing there pretending to be Christ. They will willingly follow him because they will believe he is the Saviour.....they have then taken the mark of the beast!


.........Whirlwind

I went after trib. Most scholars are going post trib. Including John McCarther. thank you patrick

Wow.....I am the only one out of eight voters who thinks its pre-trib?

The bible should be our only guide. Right? The Rapture is found in the Old Testament as a type. I like to only use scripture as my source because everyone has an opinion, but God's Word is True.

Look very carefully at the New Testament description of the rapture and see how it lines up with Joshua 6.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
1Th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We see a great "shout" -----the "Trump of God"---and the people of God "going up".

Compare this to these verses.

Jos 6:3 And ye shall compass the city, all the men of war, going about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.
Jos 6:4 And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets.
Jos 6:5 And it shall be, that, when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall go up every man straight before him.

This all happens at the 7 day and not the first day as the pre-trib teaches. We are to go thru the 7 years of tribulation and only then will we hear the Trump of God because that will be the LAST Trump.

Happens at the 7th and last Trumpet blast.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the Dead shall be Raised incorruptible, and We shall be Changed.

And the Seventh (last) Trumpet sounds right after the Two Olive Trees (two prophets) are raised from the dead and ascend into heaven (3 1/2 days after they are killed) That's after the Tribulation, and, right before the Wrath.

Rev 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man desireth to hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devoureth their enemies; and if any man shall desire to hurt them, in this manner must he be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have the power to shut the heaven, that it rain not during the days of their prophecy: and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they shall desire.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that cometh up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do men look upon their dead bodies three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell on the earth rejoice over them, and make merry; and they shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that beheld them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand persons: and the rest were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Dead are raised at that Trumpet, living born-again Christians are changed, and then the Wrath of God happens.

And here's the beginning of the Wrath right after the 7th Trumpet. The earthquake and great hail should be the same as the ones that destroy all of the cities.

Rev 11:19 And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail. Ref: Rev 16:16-21 for the earthquake and hail

Earthquake, and great hail
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-Magedon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done:
Rev 16:18 and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since there were men upon the earth, so great an earthquake, so mighty.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

(The two candlesticks apparently are some of the ones who are changed as it seems only the two olive trees (prophets) are killed.)

Until recently, I too had been unsure of just exactly when the rapture would occur. That is to say that yes, I've always believed that there would be a rapture. Or as scripture would most closely resemble the rapture with the words "being caught up to meet in the air". But when? Pre? Post?

That question seems to have been put to rest for me just last Friday while watching Hal Lindsey who explained his view as follows.

As in the days of Noah, so will be the coming (approaching) of the Son of man. Mat 24:37-42.


In Noah's days sin and immorality abounded just as we see it around us everyday. This is the obvious equation. But also just as in the days of Noah, God brought the only righteous people into the Ark and saved them from the judgement he was bringing upon the earth.

The righteous Lot and his family were also brought out from Sodom & Gomorah before judgement came down upon it.

What these two examples proves to me that God will remove his people, the righteous, BEFORE his judgements come, and in our case, during the tribulation.

Good points. One could also say, though, that Noah and his family were protected through and during the tribulation by being told to be in the ark while the tribulation was going on around them. They weren't removed from the flood, but protected from it while it was going on all around them. They were brought through the storm to the other side.

Whether it's looked at one way or the other seems to be a matter of personal interpretation. Personally I stand on the side of the fence that does not see Noah being removed from the tribulation. He was divinely protected during it, but still in a mortal life and his mortal life went on after the flood waters receded. In other words, I'm post-trib. But I don't argue about it, and I don't look down on pre-tribbers, because there are plenty of scriptures that seem to imply pre-trib.

The meaning of "The catching up to meet the Lord in the air at His return to earth" has been so perverted by the term rapture and those who have fleeced the Lords sheep, using made up doctrine and lies for monetary gain, that the term rapture being born of sin, shouldn't be used at all.

But the Resurrection and catching up of the saints into the air of earth will happen at the coming of Christ at the beginning of the Kingdom of God.

Confusion? This "Rapture" thing has caused the greatest "confusion" in the Body of Christ. And the Scriptures tell us who is the "god of confusion"... Yes, Satan.

But now the "Ressurection of the First Fruits"... now that is another thing... strive to be an "Overcomer" in the "Barley and Flax Harvest", being the Resurrection of the First Fruits, for believe me, you do not want to be of the five Virgins left behind and miss the Groom, the Thief in the night, when He comes in SECRET "before" His later physical arrival.

Blessings...

-7

I have another answer. It's up to each and every one. Just don't think that your corporeal bodies will disappear. Then it will make sense.

"beast wages war on the saints" Rev 13 [and more in Rev]

Sorry but there is No rapture....

What Tribulation?

I would hate to have any other view than watching the Lord loom larger and larger in my eyes as I rise to meet Him.

Peace,

John

yes to bad God is against those that teach his people to fly away from there problems.....

OOPS FORGOT THE PROOF MY BAD ADULLAM

Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly."

Have you ever wondered what God thinks of your fly-away doctrine? Here it is.

God said, Behold, wake up, I am against your false doctrines [pillows], wherewith ye hunt the souls to make them fly. Did you get that, God is against it when you go out to teach the souls of men and women and tell they they are going to fly out of here.

Those that you have hunted with your whitewashed religion, and told them that they will fly out and not see the time of the end. You have told them not to prepare for the Antichrist, and that the signs of the times of the entire Bible were not important. IT IS A LIE, brother, and God will judge you severely for that lie. wake up.

NM,

Your interpretation of the Lord's stand against Israelite mediums in the ancient past is taken totally out of context. You better do some indepth study of this one. "Fly" in this passage has nothing to do with the Lord's "harpazo" action [a scriptural fact] and He is watching you trash His Word. Beware. The false prophets of Israel used divination and induced sensual experiences [trances] into their followers [they charged money for their services like many false prophets do today] for the purpose of authenticating their position as a prophet. This practice of shamanism was satanically induced hallucination in conjunction with drug use. The inducment caused the users to experience delusional mind aberations and altered states of consciousness. Learned students of the scriptures and history know that you are blowing a crooked horn on this one. Better take it back to where ever you picked it up.

Stephen....you are wrong.

Prove it by the scriptures. You prove what you are teaching about this issue, and I only want scriptures .....no conjured up speculation. The context of Exekiel's warning to the false prophets of Israel has nothing to do with end time prophecy. It was for the diviners of the time. We have the same behiavor today by those of professing christianity who are involved in fake and extreme spiritual experiences like the latter rain crowd .... and what they bring has nothing to with how one interprets the event and timing of the Lord's "harpazo" action for the Church. In fact most of them say what you imply on the subject. I know where this teaching is coming from and other things that you have acquired like the "serpant's seed" junk. All of this comes from one source and lurking on the dark side of the street.

I got it from the word of God, can I put it back???? These is just another scriputre to indicate that God does not participate in this fly away doctrine(rapture) I already know you dont agree with my truths, but if you are going to oppose them you need to post some scripture.....

I have already studied, see the thing you dont understand is that some things take talent, you can practice and practice hitting a baseball everyday and you still might not have the God gifted talent to play in the MLB...

same thing with the bible some can read and read and they still will not understand things others might on one shot..... Well you should know what im saying I dont need any practice swings to knock one out the park, but you better get back in them batting cages friend....

Eze 34:1 And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying,

Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, even to the shepherds, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Woe unto the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the sheep?

Eze 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill the fatlings; but ye feed not the sheep.

Eze 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought back that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with rigor have ye ruled over them.

Eze 34:5 And they were scattered, because there was no shepherd; and they became food to all the beasts of the field, and were scattered.

Eze 34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my sheep were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and there was none that did search or seek after them.

Eze 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah:

Eze 34:8 As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, surely forasmuch as my sheep became a prey, and my sheep became food to all the beasts of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my sheep, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my sheep;

Eze 34:9 therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah:

Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my sheep at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the sheep; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; and I will deliver my sheep from their mouth, that they may not be food for them.

Eze 34:11 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I myself, even I, will search for my sheep, and will seek them out.

Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered abroad, so will I seek out my sheep; and I will deliver them out of all places whither they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the peoples, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land; and I will feed them upon the mountains of Israel, by the watercourses, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Eze 34:14 I will feed them with good pasture; and upon the mountains of the height of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie down in a good fold; and on fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

Eze 34:15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Eze 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and will bring back that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but the fat and the strong I will destroy; I will feed them in justice.

Eze 34:17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, the rams and the he-goats.

Eze 34:18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have fed upon the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture? and to have drunk of the clear waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

Eze 34:19 And as for my sheep, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet, and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

Eze 34:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto them: Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep.

Eze 34:21 Because ye thrust with side and with shoulder, and push all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

Eze 34:22 therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep.

Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

Eze 34:24 And I, Jehovah, will be their God, and my servant David prince among them; I, Jehovah, have spoken it.

Eze 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause evil beasts to cease out of the land; and they shall dwell securely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

Eze 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in its season; there shall be showers of blessing.

Eze 34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield its fruit, and the earth shall yield its increase, and they shall be secure in their land; and they shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have broken the bars of their yoke, and have delivered them out of the hand of those that made bondmen of them.

Eze 34:28 And they shall no more be a prey to the nations, neither shall the beasts of the earth devour them; but they shall dwell securely, and none shall make them afraid.

Eze 34:29 And I will raise up unto them a plantation for renown, and they shall be no more consumed with famine in the land, neither bear the shame of the nations any more.

Eze 34:30 And they shall know that I, Jehovah, their God am with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord Jehovah.

Eze 34:31 And ye my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord Jehovah.

I grovel before you both in awe and mortification. I am ashamed before such blatant humility. Words cannot express. Please, put in a good word for us here in the minor leagues. Thanking you in advance,

John

Hobgoblin

"I already know you dont agree with my truths"

>Your truths? Why would I agree with your truths?

>You know where the scriptures are and I do not have to post them for you. You post them and then explain them to me. Otherwise I consider your "truth" way off course on this subject. Buck up with your stuff. I will wait for your documented response.

Well if you think your going to escape the 5 months by flying away your not in the minor leagues (better get out the T-ball bat.....

God has already explained this in matthew do you want to be the one who the master finds working when he returns or do you want to leave your post..... Does a watchman leave his post?????

I tell you this if the Lord comes back and finds you giving sup your in a heap of trouble

Hi Researcher,


I just read over those scriptures this morning. It sounds as if the false shepherds are in for a time. They're out fleecing the sheep when they should be feeding them.



.....Whirlwind

Hobgoblin??? Goblinhob --- I already posted the scripture and then put a little of what I believe behind it... I already did what you are asking now...

O I get it you want me to do what you do--- go on the internet find some 30 page article written by someone else and post it.... No thanks

Yeah, there are a lot of them. Lol. We have no need of a teacher. He teaches us Himself.

That is not what I asked you. I want you to demonstrate your "truth" regarding the comparative of Ezekiel's passage that includes the "flying" action with the N.T. description of the Lord's "harpazo" action. Let me see it. Show me. If you cannot do this then you have a problem.

isnt this what the harpazo is ----Harpazo: The Scriptural Concept of Rapture
Well I cant do what your asking because there is no such thing as a "harpazo" hey if you want to be one of those takin from the field or takin from the mill be my guest, What kind of a watchman are you????

but dont tell me I have a problem because you dont understand the book of Ezekiel....
Basically your telling me if I dont do what you say I have a problem, who do you think you are....

I know who you are. One who cannot back up your ideas [most likely someone else's ideas] with scripture.

The following is what you are refuting and calling the same as the "flying" caused by the false prophets of Israel recorded in Ezekiel 13. You are refuting the Lord's own Words. You have the "flying" and the "caught up" confused. And you use it to trash Biblical truths.

1Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

English Strong's Greek (Root form)

shall be caught up

[726] harpazo

Lexicon Results for harpazō (Strong's G726)
Greek for G726
ἁρπάζω
Transliteration
harpazō Pronunciation
här-pä'-zō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb Root Word (Etymology)
from a derivative of G138

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 13
AV — catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1

Here is my rapture view: when Jesus comes then I go.

Caneman

Technically my view is Pre Day of Wrath, which I believe happens on the last day of this age. The Two Witnesses are Raptured along with all the surviving Believers at the same time as the First Resurrection of all the Saints. Then an earthquake ocurrs starting 24 hours of Hell on Earth. Jesus returns at the end of the Day. Many Jewish and Gentile survivors, who have not taken the Mark, convert when they see their Messiah appear in the clouds. These are the ones who are the sheep who will be separated from the unbelieving survivors and live in the Millennial Kingdom in their physical bodies. The Resurrected and Raptured Saints return with Jesus for 1000 years. After the Millennium, there will be a 2nd Resurrection of the damned, when the lost of all ages stand again on earth in their unglorified bodies to do battle with the Saints around Jerusalem. They are destroyed right away and stand in judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment. Then God creates a New Heaven and New Earth for us for eternity.

Orates

Where could you go when Christ returns????? can you not simply think this out?????

If Christ is going to return and set foot on ground, meaning yes he will be here on earth....
So where are you going????? have you forgotten so quickly that when Christ returns the elect must help Christ spread the word to all?????? You guys wanna start playing air tag.....

Stephen -- your err to prove wrong why????? I do not read the way you do!!! Let me explain

How dare anyone to start plucking scriptures out the bible without knowing the subject!!!! from time to time my age will show but this is something I learned in grade school---YOU SEEM NOT TO KNOW HOW TO DO THIS SO IM GOING TO EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.....

----This is what you posted to try to prove your rapture theory OOPS IM SORRY YOUR HARPAZO

1Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

COME ON STEPHEN ---Dude you got like a million post you cant take the time to start from the beginning, it will only take a second... ready OK lets get a topic, a subject if you will..

heres the topic and subject:

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Do you understand Stephen???? We arent talking about some harpazo here --the topic is were the dead are --GET IT????
Probley not...

So understand WE-ARE-ABOUT-TO- TALK-ABOUT-DEAD-PEOPLE---WHERE-THERE-AT-SO-NONE-OF-US-ARE-SAD....

did you get that??? now when you want to talk about where the dead are hey im all for it...

O yeah Stephen im reading that "Stephen concerning your pre-tribe rapture" thread I think you should be more concerned about whats being brung to light over there than me....

Nonsense. This means that your response makes no sense at all. Are you a christian .... or something else? You seem to have very little regard for the Bible and the truths that are presented in the scriptures. Your views are not Biblically based at all in many cases .... actually a Nightmare of confusion. You need help.

I have time for only an ultra-short summary now, but later I'll give more details with more verses.

It looks like God's people will be persecuted, (killed), by the beast power for refusing the Mark of the Beast. They are reduced down to the 144,000. Those are protected by God, separated somewhat from the wicked and camp in the wilderness. They will witness the plagues, but not suffer. They are able to stand during the time when Jesus steps out of the Sanctuary and man-kind is left without an Intercessor. By this time, it is too late for the wicked who where apathetic about prophecy and getting right with God to prepare for the Second Coming of Christ. They can't repent anymore because there is no more High Priest to make Atonement for them.



After the span of a Prophetic half hour, then comes the 7 last plagues. Then Jesus comes in the Glory of His Father, with all His holy angels, and whoever among the wicked survived the plagues are killed. The dead are physically resurrected, and experience a wonderful reunion and everyone is happy that the wicked will no longer be persecuting them and bothering them anymore. The 144,000 will go together with the resurrected saints, "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air.

I hate to say, but I think the Star Trek idea of people disappearing, however sensational and popular it may be, is not a reality. If that where true, people could just have a party with the Devil and enjoy the pleasures of sin until the Secret Rapture, then they have 7 more years until Jesus comes. That's what people want to believe, but I'm sure it's a deception. Get right with God now. God's people will be removed, but not to Heaven during this "trib", but to the wilderness.

when I give a idea I always back it up with scripture, where do you think I get my ideas from???? the bible

See there you go again saying I need help --why??? is it because I dont believe the things you believe actually I probley believe just about everything you believe concerning most... The problem is since you dont understand what really happen happen in the garden you cannot understand my speech.....

Someone else ideas huh???? Is there not nothing new under the sun???? We all have been schooled by someone concerning the bible..... 1000 of years ago people thought the same way I did how can my ideas be my own if they were thought of before I was born???? Your in the same boat buddy no matter what you post I can find someone who believes the same thing and believed it before you, does that mean your ideas are not your own??? We must all come to a conclusion using the knowledge that is set before us.... Or will you tell Paul his ideas are not his own???? and they come from Jesus

The way I figure it, He is coming and I am leaving with Him.

When Christ comes, the dead will be raised and He will take His people to Heaven. Everyone who is not saved will die. There will be no second chance. There will be no righteous ruling over the wicked for 1000 years. God's people will be eternally secure from Papists who will burn heretics and every other kind of wickedness which has shed the blood of God's children since Cain killed Abel.

Eternally secure! No more dealing with wickedness. If you love wickedness and love this world, remember this world murdered God's son and continued to murder His followers. This world is not being converted, but will once again shed the blood of the saints to show itself a murderer one more time so people will have one more chance to listen the the cry of the blood.



They probably will not listen to the cry for they will believe the media which says they where "heretics", or they where molesting children or whatever, like in the case of Waco. IMO Waco was a test run for the Vatican to test her control over US military force to destroy heretics.

When people are too far gone, too apathetic, to hear the cry of innocent blood, then there's no more hope for them. They will be ripe for judgment, and then Christ will come and bring it to an end.

Nice friendly way to figure it ---- but the problem is Christ is coming to build His kingdom on earth.....
How can you leave with Him when He is coming, not leaving????? and when He gets here Hes not leaving



Do you know were the dead are????

I believe what's taught at:
truthaboutdeath.com and helltruth.com

It's popular to believe man has an immortal soul, but there is no phrase: "immortal soul" anywhere in the bible. The Immortal Soul doctrine actually comes from many Pagan sources, like Confucius, Buddha, the Hindus, Plato, Socrates, etc, etc. Immortal soul is taught in all pagan religions, but Jesus said:



Otherwise spiritualism would be a legitimate practice. Spiritualism is condemned in the bible, but it's getting popular today, and unfortunately, ministers are not able to explain the dangers to people, because they teach the same thing as spiritualists.

I'm here to tell you, those who think they are communicating with the dead are communicating with demons. No one has ever communicated with the dead. Never get involved in EVP, or ghost hunting, or Ouija boards, or séances, or psychics, or mediums. Don't even watch them on TV. It's demonic. They get their information from "familiar spirits", (devils).

If you see a ghost, rebuke it in the name of Jesus. It's a Devil.
This is a horror ---> http://aaevp.com/resources/no_dead_reviews.htm

I believe the first sermon preached on the immortal soul was in the Garden of Eden when Satan said: "Ye shall not surely die." Now he can either admit he was wrong, or convince people that when they die, they don't "surely" die.

The dead are just dead. As soon as you die, the next thing you will know is being in the presence of God in the resurrection. The wicked will immediately wake up in the second resurrection at the end of the 1000 years. You are warped through time to whichever resurrection you belong in. You go to sleep and wake right back up, not perceiving a second of time passing, though thousands of years may have passed.

The resurrection will be a glorious reunion of saints throughout all ages. The apostles and prophets you read about in the bible will be there. Perhaps saved loved ones who have passed on. Martyrs you may have read about. No one will ever kill each other after that. No liars, slanderers, gossipers, hate-mongers.





So when do the rest of the dead live again? After the thousand years. Then Satan goes to gather them to try and take the Holy City which came down from heaven. The righteous spend that thousand years with Christ in the city, not on this earth. During this time the saints go over God's judgment in determining who gets to be there and who has to face the Second Death, as well as how much each deserves as punishment.





I know people will vehemently oppose this, but it's ok.

The holy city, New Jerusalem is us. That's what's descending out of heaven. We're the bride of Christ, same thing as new Jerusalem.

You'll see.

Alot of interesting discussion here. I really try to avoid using terminologies absent from scripture itself. Terms like "rapture", and "millenieum", as well as phrases like "going to heaven" have caused alot of schisms over the years. I understand that "rapture" is the greek word for caught up. But without qualification of the event the word could mean anything. The greek word for the Lord's return where we "meet" him in the air is "apantesis" It is the same word used in acts where Paul was "met" at the three taverns by the ones comming as far as "appi forum" Acts 28:15. This was a greeting party. Somewhat like going to the airport to greet and recieve a friend or relative comming to visit. Do we get on the plane and go back with them? Why bother? Neither did they go back with Paul to where he came from. Neither will we go back to "heaven" with the Lord. Why? Because he is not going back! Thy kingdom come....where? Thy will be done....Where? In earth or heaven? I would venture to say that ever since the rebellion of Lucifer God's will was done in heaven much to the chagrin of principalities or men who would have it otherwise.
The other scripture I would like to refer to is Matthew 24:29-31 where a chain of chronological events begin to transpire beginning with "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


I could also cite Luke 12:36 which places the wedding prior to the comming of Jesus Christ and the servants waiting on earth. By this text there is no "7 year wedding feast in heaven" (another non-scriptural leaven) and he is already hitched before he comes back!

So are we just a pack of whores waiting for some magical washing at the last minute? Or will we take care of that business ourselves as we were commanded?

Should be, we go up as He is coming down, get changed, fire and destruction wipe out the beast etc, we come back down. Anyone?

Along those lines. I agree.

I do not see in the Bible that Believers of the Gathering are whores or a pack of whores. I do not think we will have everything all perfect and Jesus is coming to approve of the perfect job we did either.

Who suggested some of us think we are a pack of whores? I have never gotten that from the Bible.

You're right. God's people are a city, but I think New Jerusalem is a literal city as well. There's really no need to suppose otherwise. Jesus said:



If you say "And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]", (Is 65:21), that's after the 1000 years in the new earth. The saints will have a city and a country home. Why not?

And this city is described in great detail in revelation;:


Literal city! Literal tree of life! Literal river! All of these things will be there. The saints will not be spirits flying around in some nebulous spirit world. They will be real people with real cities and everything else real people have. I believe I will get as much college as I want for free, educated by angels with crazy technology, such as can't be imagined in this world.

I believe the city is also where everyone will go to church every Sabbath, where Jesus will preach.