Is Hell eternal torment as has been taught for centuries? According to one passage in the Bible, it is the destruction of both body and soul in the Lake of Fire, whose effect lasts forever.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

To believe that God would torture a lost soul in flaming fire for eternity is hard to reconcile with a loving God. It keeps many unbelievers from ever accepting Christiantity. I was once burned on the arm by super heated water from a radiator. The pain was intense enough to ellicit screams of agony. This lasted a few seconds, so the thought of bodily torment in flames for eternity is unbearable. Maybe you are saying I am wimpy and that tough Christians can accept the concept that God can torment Aunt May for eternity because she had a bad experience with religion growing up. She deserves the punishment that is coming to her, you might say. She will die both soul and body for her rejection of Salvation from her Savior, but will she live on for eternity in torment? Is doubting this belief heresy or cultic philosophy? Let's look at the Scriptures pertaining to hell.

How Long is Everlasting?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
The demonic angels, which lost their first estate in Heaven, are being reserved in everlasting chains in darkness until Judgment Day. The concept of everlasting as being eternal is contradicted here in this passage where demons are reserved in chains until they are judged.

Hell Fire = The Lake of Fire

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. I believe this passage is referring to being cast into the Lake of Fire of Revelation Chapter 20.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Why is being cast into the Lake of Fire called the Second Death?

The second death is when the lost appear before the judgment seat of Christ and are judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire experiencing a "second" death. It is interesting that hell and death are also cast into the Lake as if they were actual beings. If Hell is the Lake of Fire, how could Hell be cast into Hell? I think the anwer is that the word Hell is actually Hades- the dwelling place of the lost where the souls of the lost reside until judgment. Hades and Death are eliminated from creation in this judgment. It makes no sense for Hell/Hades and Death to be tormented in the Lake of Fire, but rather destroyed out of existence along with the souls of all the lost.

Satan's Demise

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It would seem from this passage that the beast and false prophet had been thrown into the Lake of Fire previously and are still there when Satan is cast after the Millennium. But in the phrase, "where the beast and the false prophet are", the word "are" has been added to the text. It could have easily read- where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. The phrase "and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" is only one of a few passage in scripture where the concept of eternal torment is insinuated. Maybe the beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only ones who experience eternal torment. But maybe the passage means they experience torment upon being thrown in the Lake and the effects of their fate lasts forever. Another passage which appears to suggest torment is from Matthew Chapter 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? The time this passage refers to is not clear, and therefore not proof of eternal torment.

A Place of Torments

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell (or Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
It is possible that this parable is not stictly based on reality and is a story emphasizing the different destinies of the rich man and Lazarus. Maybe Jesus wanted to put the fear of God into His listeners through this story. If it is real, then it appears there are two places to go in the afterlife. Abraham' Bosom or paradise for the righteous and torments or Hades for the unjust. From the story, it does appear that the rich man is being tormented by flames and would have nothing else, but to have a drop of cool water from Lazarus's finger. What we do know is that Hades is the holding cell for lost souls who will one day be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Whether Hades is a place of torment in the meantime can be inferred from this parable.

It would seem that rationally a loving God would not keep "Hell" as a place of eternal torment for lost souls, but rather destroy both body and soul in the Lake of Fire once and for all. I don't think I could enjoy Heaven if I knew people I loved were burning in Hell forever. Can we truly love a God with plan like that?

I know this is an uncomfortable subject for many, but what do you think?

O

I believe the parable of Lazarus and the rich man tells us a great deal.


Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24.And he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

26.And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.'


I believe there is a literal gulf between souls during the millennium that cannot be crossed (there is an exception but it would take this off subject.) When Christ comes at His 7th trump, He comes to judge and make war. He will judge on which side of the gulf one will spend the millennium. Those on the side with Him (those of the first resurrection) will teach. Those on the other side will be instructed and tested at the conclusion of the 1,000 years when Satan is "loosed for a short time."


The rich man is on the side that will be taught. If he can see, literally see Abraham, then he knows that he didn't pass the first test. He knows God is real and that his soul is liable to die. I would be in constant torment, as he was, to see the other side and know I couldn't cross over. The "water" he wanted to dip his finger in is the Living Water. He is tormented not to have it, not to be part of it.


God is a consuming fire. That fire will warm some and purify others. Perhaps that is the "flame" he is in. He is being purified.




I believe it will be as is written and that their smoke will go up for ever and ever. They die and nothing is left, just as smoke that continues into nothingness....At least, that is what I believe.


........Whirlwind

23 Minutes in Hell, a fascinating video... (also on youtube, I think.)
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWie...InHell_Text.htm

Joseph Herrin, however, argues that it's not forever, but a cleansing till the end of the age when ALL things will be purified and worship God. I believe his main argument is that the original Greek uses aeon, age, rather than the Greek forever...

http://www.heart4god.ws/id207.htm

Personally, I don't know if it's forever or not, I'd rather be purified here than there...

This debate is not new here on the forum. It has proven to be a destructive debate here in the past, resulting in the loss of a moderator and several members. There was much hurt and pain.

Orates, you said "I think...", and "It would seem...". God said through the prophet Isaiah Chapter 55 verse 9 - "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Also, you refer to the second death. That is fine but don't you know that even the wicked will be ressurected? Is the second death difficult to understand? Perhaps it speaks of 1st body, 1st death. 2nd body, 2nd death. I grant that this may be a stretch, without scriptural proof text offered to support, but maybe since we'll be resurrected to a body immortal, those resurrected who are wicked will have those immortal worms and unending flames. Just a thought.

Also, you refered to 'tough' Christians who can accept eternal torment for Aunt May. We 'tough' ones don't particularily like the idea. We all deserve her fate. But for God's grace... We're don't however have any input in what happens to the wicked, even when we don't think that they're so bad.

I too struggled with this idea or concept of Hell being eternal and so far in my studies I have come to the place where I search things out now in the original texts.

Here are a couple of scriptures that do not fit in with hell being eternal.
Romans 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Colossians 1:18-20
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

Philippians 2:9-11
9  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

A good study of what aion and aionios.

Matthew 5:43-48
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Would eternally tormenting some in hell fit somewhere in this context? Would God ask us to do something that He, Himself would not do?

To begin to understand this subject you must first realize that the soul is not immortal, except that we accept Christ and believe on him. Adam brought death to all men, Christ came to bring life, if we accept him, and live according to his word. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. With all that being said, as Chiro39 said it's a controversal subject, with several threads running in the Debates section, and would probably do better there. Blessings to you all, Mouser

God is just, therefore His judgement is just. And because His judgment is just, I believe there are degrees of punishment in hell just like there are degrees of punishment here on earth, all according to the sins we have committed, if we did not accept Jesus to bear our sins for us on the cross during our lifetime.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is how perfect God's judgment is.
And yes, there is a hell! I have been there!

In a way, man's denial of hell is healthy, because we were not meant for hell, nor does Jesus want us to go there; He paid a high enough price for that...

I have watched this debate for years, and I will be honest....it cannot be solved conclusively.

I have found some very interesting support for both assertions, and to be even MORE honest....

I don't have any idea what THE truth is.

I am persuaded by the NT that hell and the LOF is eternal (you are alive and aware forever).

But here is an interesting scripture I found that might persuade me otherwise, and it is precisely the verse that Jesus is basically quoting in many places:

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

now this might seem to indicate that these men are NOT alive and aware, but are simply dead carcasses that burn continually as a constant (eternal) warning to them that see them.

Honestly, I have no idea. All I know, is that even if it is an eternal death where there is no awareness, obviously eternal life is to be preferred.

So who cares??

Actually i never seen any debates been successfully. They just bring on more and more. Well the only defination of debate i know is it is a bottomless pit, Never ending, time waste, worthless, it can kill a person and so on. Debate is bad.

I always wonder who invented debate.

It is quite strange and funny and serious when it comes to Lord. He is the one who created us. He is everything and yet they question the bible, his creations and everything that belongs to him.

All i say is hell is real and what hell does is already mentioned in the bible. What more is needed?..

Once, I asked the LORD to show me Hell, I thought I could be more convincing describing it if I saw it...Now if what I was shown was symbolic so I could understand Hell better, or if it was actually a part of Hell, I don't know but this is what I experienced...

I was walking through a old small town that looked like it was from the 1940's. All the buildings were in very bad condition, crumbling, covered in spider webs and thick dust...there was only darkness..electric light didn't even work here...I saw a couple of men dressed in overalls who appeared to work at the empty gas station... which was crumbling and covered in dust, and the 2 men just sat on buckets, their eyes were open and lifeless. They were alive, but for all enternity, they sat on the buckets, staring at nothing, with absolutely lifeless eyes, for they had no hope, it was taken from them. They, too, were covered in spider webs and dust and dirt. The imagination was taken away from people in Hell, so they couldn't even have relief in a fantasy of the mind. In the center of town is where most of the souls were. I saw a molten lake, it had the appearance of molten steel at a steel mill. People there were working on forging steel beams...the work was never ending, and got harder and harder the more time had passed, and they were burdened with a debt that they were trying to pay off, but was so great, that working harder and harder at heavy and punishing labor in extreme heat of molten steel for all enternity would never be enough to pay it off. It was their punishment, forced, hard, oppressive labor for all enternity.

(note: I am orginally from a steel town where the steel mills used to be main source of the economy, but now the mills are empty dead, rotting places....I don't know if this has anything to do with what I was shown or not)

The truth is an end to all debate. But sometime the journey to find it requires that we discuss the different viepoints. This is healthy, and has gleened much truth for the saints.




Agreed - see, that was easy......

Maybe I'm wrong but I think the question was is hell eternal, I don't think anyone who posted so far has denied hell's existance, the debate is whether it is eternal or just for an age or limited time. I find that many make the mistake (I know I sure have) of trusting translations to be perfect, but they are not. Going back to the orignal texts (which requires some studying) sheds some light on what is hell and what God's purpose is for it. But it not a week-end kind of study, more like weeks and possibly months.

Not at all Jiggy, the matter can be settled in the time it takes to read the following verse:

Revelation 20:14

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire, ergo hell is not eternal. QED.

I agree, but thats really an oversimplification of the issue. Is there an escape from the punishment that hell represents. They do experience a ressurrection, but are they then simply "killed" again and their lifeless ressurrected corpses cast into the flames as a constant reminder? Or are they aware eternally?

Those are the questions that are really difficult to answer.

[edit to add] There is little doubt that there is awareness in hell.

The question really then becomes if that continues in the LOF.

Are you kidding me? Do you think that if Hell is real and eternal that it means that God will hang out there and like Sadam Hussein perversly enjoy tormenting souls for eternity. Give us all a break! Hell is real. God is not and never will be tormenting any souls there. He is not there!

The context says that we are to forgive even as He does. You've been forgiven haven't you? But not all are, though God extends his offer of grace and mercy and salvation to all that call on Him. But if we reject so great a salvation, what hope have we? No, God won't torment us in hell, but the flames, worms and demons not to mention the utter absence of God's comforting presence and knowledge that he hears our prayers will result in utter hopeless and despair along with the torment.

Many will say that if hell is temporary and then destruction of the soul follows, then they'll endure it for a while in order not to have to live for God, and live life on their own terms. Do any of you reading this want to face those who you helped send to hell because your writings helped persuade them that it is worth the risk?

Boy, I am amazed at what you assume I believe by what little I posted. So are you saying that God is not in control of hell???

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

What more do you need to know than this about hell? It has an end...but if I were to suggest that the lake of fire is God I would get a lot of abusive rhetoric...but there is scripture to suggest the case...Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The beginning and the end is not a place it is a person ... Christ...There was a judgment by water and there will be a judgment by fire...as there was one flood, there will only be one fire...the universal fire..all things consumed...works of hay and stubble and wood burn but men wil be saved as though it were by fire...the lake of fire...the thing is everything begins and ends with God and in God...our God is a consuming fire...His fire refines and purifies and it destroys also...it depends upon your makeup if you survive the fire...Moses went up the mount but other men not sanctified, even their beasts died if they touched the mount.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Scripture makes reference to the flood of Noah being a baptism...

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


I am ducking for cover now....I know I am onto something but it will take prayer and fasting...I think the fasting will be how fast I can run....

I have always believed that hell was just a holding place for the lost until the final judgment of the lost at "The Great White Throne Judgment." Rev 20:11 and Rev 7:9

The "Judgment Seat of Christ" is only for Believers--it determines our rewards and perhaps our position in the coming Kingdom on Earth. Rom 14:10 and 2Cr 5:10

We are born once, and by the mercy and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we can be born again. For the lost, they are born of the flesh, and they will die in the flesh--this is the first death; but their soul continues on until the final judgment of the lost at the end of the Kingdom Age--they will suffer the second death, but their soul will continue on. Did the Father breathe into Adam a "living soul?" If so, it will continue on for eternity...

Hell is currently still in place...At the right time, Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire...The Lake of Fire is eternal...

At the White Throne Judgment seat all unrighteous will be judged and cast along with the devil and false prophet into the Lake of fire forever...

Who is the unrighteous????

Then you my friend are guilty of the same thing you accuse me of; assumption. Your post does imply that a loving God would not torment people in hell. I say that he's not there, and does not torment the wicked dead. I never said or implied that he's not in absolute control of hell or anything else. I am explicitly saying that hell is a place of torment and that God is not there pushing the torment buttons. He created hell just as he created the destroyer to destroy. He created the tormentors. He created hell for the fallen angels, but most of mankind will end up there as well.

Fervent, you know that I love you but I must say that you saying that Jesus being the first and the last means that as the last, hell and its inhabitants are snuffed out by Jesus is quite a stretch. Also, why do you think 2nd death means of the spirit and soul ceasing to exist? What about the ressurected body of the wicked?

We can take other scriptures to build a case to support any theory that we postulate but that does not mean that we're at all right. If Jesus spoke about destruction of the soul don't you think that the biblical writers would have been inspired by the Holy Spirit to write it for our benefit?

For those who wonder I am taking my time to write these responses because as I stated before, if ceasing to exist is a viable alternative then why get saved and have to walk the narrow path and have to die to self? Suicide now becomes a reasonable way out because after all, we'll just cease to exist at some point and it will be welcome to so many. I think that this is a damnable heresy.

eom

Ps.1:1-6 Blessed is te man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in te way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so; but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgement, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. I don't see how it could be much plainer than that, ungodly people perish, and are gone. Christ said if the person didn't get born again he couldn't enter into the kingdom. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. There is not eternal life outside of God. Yes there will be a judgement, of just and unjust, but the ungodly will not be there. They have been condemned by not accepting Jesus Christ as stated in John 3:18. After the sinners are judged they will be done away with. The fear of the Lord is the begining of knowledge, but we don't serve him out of fear, but Love. That is the reason I personally serve the Lord, not the fear of being burned for eternity. Said with all respect, to those who disagree or see it differently.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

...men die once, and only once because "once" does not mean twice.

Scripture cannot be plainer than what is being said here.

I will also add this

Did Christ say that if someone denies him before others that Christ will deny that person before the Father?

Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Now then, who is the unrighteous? Would you agree that such a person deserves hell and is undeserving of Christ's forgiveness?

But, be careful if you answer. This is like a trick question. Your answer may judge others and thereby become judged yourself.

So with this in mind what is your point concerning hell, eternal or not?

I have only posted that Hell is not eternal and that eventually all thing are restored to Father through Christ.

Bottom line is we are Christians...Christians are not destined for hell...Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Preaching hell has limited merit...Few realize that is not the gospel message the message is the good news of salvation and how to attain it and how to walk in it. You cannot look at sin and see Christ for there is no sin in Him. If you look at sin you are looking the wrong way.

Just last night I watched the Billy Graham special about his wife Ruth Graham...a song was sang and the words in that song rose up in me in a way they never before rose up..."He bore all my sins." That is a great sufficiency for which I am eternally grateful. All is all, not part...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

We can sing another song and we can approach issues that have little to do with the eternal outcome...up page chrio said that he believes many people will go to hell...I beg to differ and I say most people will go to heaven. Otherwise God so loved the world? The church did what for centuries?

In a forum like this who is reading about hell? Christians who are not going that route...how many unbelievers do you reach in a Christian forum? It is like preaching in church when th eworld is outside the door...the message gets recycled time and again to those who already have it...and the ones who do not don't hear it...canned and labelled and placed in the cupboard...

This is actually the transcript of a lecture I wrote years ago.
It is lengthy but I thought it might help here.

The Punishment of the Wicked
Are the wicked dead burning in hell now?
Absolutely not! The Bible says clearly that the wicked, are being kept for their punishment. 2 Peter 3:7 says the heavens and earth are “reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” Jesus, in Matt. 25:31,41, said they will be punished when He comes in judgment. In Rev. 20, we are told they will be cast into the fire of punishment at the end of the millennium. No, the wicked are not being punished now. They are waiting in their graves for the day of judgment and destruction. Jesus Himself said in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” According to Jesus’ words, evildoers are not in hell, but in their graves, awaiting judgment.

What will their punishment be?
Is it going to be everlasting life in hell? Is God going to give eternal life to both the wicked and the righteous? No, He is going to resurrect them to receive their punishment. It will be a punishing that will result in their annihilation. Revelation 20:6 calls it “The second death.” The wicked are going to die again. Romans 6:23 say, “For the wages of sin is death.” Notice the contrast, “but the gift of God is eternal life. The Bible contrasts death and life – not life in heaven or life in hell. John 3:16 does not say, “For God so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not have everlasting life in hell.” That is what it should say if the popular belief was true. But the text says they “perish” – die – and that is in contrast to those who receive “eternal life.” The Bible teaches; the righteous have life, but the wicked perish. The popular teaching is that they both have everlasting life, only in different places.

Malachi 4:1 confirms this, “Behold the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” The wicked are going to be burned up. They’re going to be destroyed completely. They’ll suffer the second death. There will be a hell – don’t misunderstand that! The Bible teaches us that the wicked will be punished in flames – tormented, the Bible says, for their wickedness. God is just, and He will not clear the guilty. Jesus made it clear that each would be punished according to his guilt (Luke 12:47,48). It’s an awful tragedy to be lost. But that suffering will end in death, not everlasting life in flames. Psalms 37:20 says, “Into smoke shall they consume away.” Verse 10 says, “the wicked shall not be.” That means the time is coming when they will not even “be” in hell. They will burn up.

The Meaning of Forever
“But doesn’t the Bible say that the wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire and there they will be tormented day and night forever and ever? Yes, the Bible does say that. How are we going to resolve this? It depends on the meaning of the word “forever.” What does the Bible mean when it says they will be tormented forever? The Bible itself describes the meaning of this word and uses it in other senses than “without end.” Exodus 21 describes the custom that was followed if a man wanted to remain a slave after his commitment was up. It says that he should have a hole drilled through his ear and this would be the sign that he would serve as a slave “forever” (Exodus 21:6). But how long is “forever” in this case? It says in another translation: “for the rest of his life.” That’s as long as the slave could serve, of course. But it says “forever.” “Forever” in this case simply means as long as he lives.

There are other instances where time involved is even shorter than this. In Jonah 1:17, we are told that Jonah was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights. Jesus confirms this also (Matthew 12:40). But when Jonah prayed from the whale’s belly, how long did he say he was there? “I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever” (Jonah 2: 5,6). Forever can be as short as three days and nights.

Then how long is forever? It can mean as short a period as three days and three nights, and as long a period as many generations, and sometimes it means “without end” - undoubtedly when it refers to the righteous who will never die, or to God who is life. The word “forever” found in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word OLAM and in the New Testament, the Greek word AION. The Hebrew dictionary defines the word OLAM as lasting “as long as the nature of the subject allows.” (See H.C.A. Moule The Cambridge Bible for Schools & Colleges on Philemon 15.) This could mean without end or it could be a very short period of time. AION means exactly the same thing.

Let’s illustrate this by using the word “area.” How big is an area? That depends on the nature of the subject you are talking about. That’s the way it is with the word “forever.” You have to know what you’re talking about first. It’s as long as the nature of the subject allows. If I am talking about my thumb, that’s about a square inch. If I’m talking about the building here, and I say that’s an area of several square feet. If I’m talking about the area of a city, that’s an area of several square miles. If we were talking about the United States, the area of the Northwest would be thousands of square miles; and if we are talking about the area of Australia, that would be the area of an entire continent. If we are talking about the area of the solar system, we would speak in terms of billions of square miles. If we’re talking about the area of Nebula Andromeda, we’re talking about billions of light years. How big is an area? Just as big as the nature of the subject allows. And the Bible says “forever” is used in the same way - it’s as long as the nature of the subject allows. It can be a short time, or it can be without end.

Jesus used the Greek word AION to describe the age in which we lived. He said this age will end when He comes in glory. In this case this word definitely describes a time period that will end. But the same word (AION) is sometimes translated as the word “eternal.” Both of these words mean the same thing: as long as the nature of the subject allows. The Bible gives us many plain examples of how we should understand it.

Jude 9 says, “Sodom and Gomorrah… serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” But they’re not burning now. They are under the Dead Sea. They didn’t burn very long. But it says “eternal fire” burned them. And what’s more, it says they were an example to all who live ungodly. Notice what Peter says about them. “He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly” (2Peter 2:6). Peter says they were turned to ashes, they are extinct, and they are an example to all who are ungodly. In conclusion I would say, dear friends, that the Bible makes it abundantly clear that the wicked are going to be burned up, they are going to become extinct, they will be turned to ashes. I believe that’s too clear to be misunderstood. Obadiah 16 says they “will be as if they had never been.” What a wonderful thing to believe what God says. The wicked will receive their just punishment, but then they will be destroyed; they will be forgotten.
Here is the picture that Jesus gave us in Revelation, the last book of the Bible. I love this text, for it tells me in clear language that there will not be a place of torture that will never end. “And I saw a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away….And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away” (Rev. 21:1,4). This text tells us that in all God’s new heavens and new earth, after sin has been punished, when the lake of fire has done its work, tears will be wiped away. After that, nowhere in the heavens or earth will there be any more pain or crying; that will be a thing of the past. The results of sin will be forgotten. Aren’t you glad for that? The whole universe will be in perfect harmony and beauty. There won’t be any more reminders of sin. There won’t be any more anguish and torture going on. To believe that hell is eternal and never ends, is to say that God cannot totally remove every rudiment of sin from the universe. He can, and he will.

I want to leave it the way God says it, don’t you? That’s so much better than to think that God will receive some sadistic pleasure throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity by tormenting those who’ve done wrong. The Bible doesn’t teach that. The Bible says God wants to forget it. He must in justice carry out “His strange act,” the Bible calls it (Isaiah 28:21), of destroying the wicked, but He longs to bring peace and beauty and holiness to the whole universe once more without any reminder of sin, without anything to mar that beauty and that harmony.

Some object that if the wicked just burn up, then some might say, “I may as well live it up now. A little punishment at the end won’t be too bad and then it will be done.” But that kind of thinking results from the failure to understand hell. The purpose of hell is not to scare us into heaven. If God wanted to do that, he would have destroyed Lucifer in heaven the moment he sinned. If fear was his purpose, then why did he wait all these years to let sin demonstrate it’s sinfulness. No, the purpose of hell is not to frighten us into heaven, but to dispose of sin so we can live in a universe of perfect peace and happiness. God looks down on this planet and sees the wicked beating and battering his people. He sees the faithful suffering from heartache, disease, war, natural disasters and the consequences of sin. He finally says, “that is enough!” And he removes sin from the presence of the universe forever.

God wants to give life to all those who will believe, who will be fit citizens of His eternal kingdom. I want to experience that life. I don’t want to experience that lake of fire. By the grace of God, we can all be there in that beautiful home where pain, death, and sorrow will be past. I am looking forward to that day; and I am glad that the truth about death makes God’s plan more beautiful than ever before.

3am

3am

Sometimes people are puzzled about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. (Luke 16: 19-31) They say, “Doesn’t this prove that the wicked go to hell and the righteous go to heaven immediately when they die?” In the first place, the story is obviously a parable – it can’t be talking about reality. If that parable describes what really happens at death, there would be several very difficult things to explain.

First, according to the parable the wicked and the righteous are within shouting distance of each other. Could Lazarus reach that far, and without getting burned? Would a drop of cool water survive reaching across the flames without evaporating? Would it help? Do we really believe that heaven and hell are that close together? I don’t think we do!

Second, it literally says that the righteous go to Abraham’s bosom. Abraham would need to have a pretty big bosom if all the righteous went there!

And third, according to the parable, the dead are in hell in body as well as spirit, because the rich man asks for Lazarus to “dip his finger in water and cool my tongue.” No one believes the dead go to heaven bodily. If that were true, then the body goes to heaven, the spirit goes to heaven the soul goes to heaven “What died?” And if nothing died, then Jesus would not have died and we would have no atonement for our sins. If we make it a literal description, the absurdities involved make it impossible to accept. Rather, the purpose and teaching of the parable is plainly stated there. Christ used this parable to teach that those who will not believe Moses and the prophets, wouldn’t believe, even if somebody rose from the dead. He also wanted to teach that when we die, our destiny is fixed and cannot be changed. These truths are taught by this parable, but it certainly isn’t intended as a literal picture of what happens to the wicked or the righteous at death.

3am

Well, Jiggy, I made my point about hell being eternal or not in the earlier post and it seems to me by Revelation 20:14 hell is not eternal.

But, my point here is that scripture also says man will die only once, while I am challenging others here to tell me if those who deny Christ are unrighteous and if they deny Christ before others are they unforgivable and will go to hell.

With all due respect, the scripture says the way of the wicked shall perish, and I wait for the day when their way is no more. I do fear God, but I don't fear hell because the righteous are not appointed to wrath. I do hope that you do develope the fear of the Lord. The early church feared God, as do some of us.

I don't see it as a trick question. I deserve hell and don't deserve Christ's forgiveness. As for your other question, I am righteous. Though I didn't merit it, I am washed in the blood of Jesus and am made righteous by him, it is Christ;s righteousness that I have.

Jesus preached about hell quite a lot. He also said that broad is the road that leads to destruction and many are on it, and narrow the path that leads to life and few there be that find it.

Paul told that scripture is profitable for reproof, rebuke, and correction among other things. Recycled forum teachings certainly have their place except when they contradict the teachings of our Lord

I don't agree that it is a parable. It is inconsistant with the parables. Jesus called the man by his name, Lazarus. In the parables no one was caled by a name. It is a historical truth with real people.

Jesus preached about hell under the law.

Paul was the main man when it came to the post cross grace revelation...spent 14 years in the learning mode...

Do you know that the Apostle Paul only mentioned hell one time in writing two thirds of the new testament it is translated grave in 1 Cor.15:55 and it has no victory

Good for you, Chrio.

But yes, it was a trick question; you just did not fall for the trick. The trick is in condemning the unrighteous, which is the power and sovereign right of Christ's alone to do.

I judge no man that he is beyond redemption, for it makes a mockery of the victory of Christ.

I am not aware of any rule which says that a parable cannot use a name.
Were it not a parable, there would be many more inconsistencies, like; going into Abraham's literal bosom, bodies with tongues and fingers after death, shouting distance between heaven and hell, reaching across etc.
One other point, the story of the rich man and Lazarus was found on ancient Babylonian tablets from before he time of Christ, indicating it was a popular story handed down, which Jesus used as an illustration.
3am

Should we deny the truth that Jesus conveys in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, simply because it is a parable??

Did Jesus lie in any of the parables??

The suffering of hell, and the ability to communicate with Abraham himself is parabolic of what truth exactly??

It is NOT a parable, but even if should it be proven to be one, the truth of the story cannot be disputed.

agreed. Why would Jesus Christ LIE in a parable? i thought the whole point was to tell truth through the parable? Why would He say the rich man could see and feel in torments? If this doesn't happen....why would Jesus say it did? Where's the truth He's trying to convey?

God's wrath is eternal.

The flames are eternal...the torment is eternal...forever and ever.

This subject may not be new, but I am finding it very imformative. It seems obvious that Christians are divided on the subject of eternal punishment. I think it is important because we should know what we are being saved from, and that non-believers may ask some tough questions about this subject.

I have a few more points I would like to share. In Genesis, God said that in the day Adam ate of the forbidden fruit he would surely die. He didn't. Satan told Eve she should would not die from eating the fruit and she didn't- physically. But I believe they died spiritually and that if not atoned for, they would eventually suffer the penalty of their disobedience- death in the Lake of Fire.

I think part of the problem is the confusion between the torment of the rich man in Hell/Hades in Jesus' parable, and the knashing of the teeth kind of torment being cast in the lake of Fire. I believe that the torment of the Lake of Fire is temporary after realizing that Christians were right about the afterlife and judgment and that the chance at eternal life in Heaven is too late. It was as close as a decision away.

I don't think that believing in the second death of the soul or eternal torment in flames should devide the body. But I would like to have a clear base in Scriptures for my beliefs. It doesn't pay to ignore this difficult subject and I think we will one day find out all the details. I am really glad I am now on the right side of eternity no matter how it pans out for those who don't believe.

O

In reality, Adam was created mortal. The only thing that kept him alive eternally was eating daily (or at least regularly) from the tree of life (Gen 3:22). And so separated from it, he began to die. But when they ate "their eyes were open" which is an indication of the spiritual death (which is really only separation from God) which they suffered immediately upon disobedience.

The spirit cannot actually "die" in the same way the body dies. If it did, the body could not live (James 2:26).

Which might be said to answer the question of this thread.

This is an awsome article regarding the topic:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2...g-you-shall-die

"So, from all this we conclude that the construction “dying you shall die” and beyom in Genesis 2:17 do not require us to conclude that God was warning that “the very day you eat from the tree is the exact same day that you will die physically.” The Hebrew wording of Genesis 2:17 allows for a time lapse between the instantaneous spiritual death on that sad day of disobedience and the later physical death (which certainly did happen, just as God said, but for Adam it was 930 years later). As Scripture consistently teaches, both kinds of death (spiritual and physical) are the consequence of Adam’s rebellion."

Quoting you- "In reality, Adam was created mortal. The only thing that kept him alive eternally was eating daily (or at least regularly) from the tree of life (Gen 3:22). And so separated from it, he began to die. But when they ate "their eyes were open" which is an indication of the spiritual death (which is really only separation from God) which they suffered immediately upon disobedience."

There is no where is Scripture that says Adam ate of the Tree of Life. His separation from God came from eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and he died that second- not "begin to die".
Saying that eating from the tree of life kept him alive eternally makes no sense.

2:16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

In fact, God prevented Adam from partaking of the tree of life

3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Adam did eat of the tree of knowledge, but not the tree of life as you incorrectly stated.

You may be a superfundamentalist, but not too careful with your facts.

O

I think thats a silly objection. It was among the trees he was allowed to eat from.



Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.



Ok.



Yes, by driving him out of the garden. You fail to realize that this happened after the fall.

That's my point, he could have lived eternally (physically) even then, had he continued to have access to the tree of life. That's why God drove him out.

SF is God a liar? No, if he said he would die that day, maybe it was another kind of death. I purpose it is a spiritual death, and that's why we have to be born again.

Notice that a "day" is as 1000 years to God. How long did Adam live?

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Adam died "that day"........yes, he died spiritually and physically.

Yes Bro. Jon, I've heard that take before, however I prefer to believe that he spiritually died that day, and was separated from God's presence, booted out of the garden.

I never denied the spiritual death aspect.

But the fact that it is physical death that Adam passes on to us (as in Romans 5) is evident in the death of innocent children who die physically in spite of their innocence. It is evident in the fact that "death reigned from Adam to Moses" even without God imputing sin to them that lived during that time. And it is not that Adam changed physically, it is simply that he and all his descendants have been separated from the tree of life. What changed was indeed the result of a spiritual death (their eyes were openned), but "spiritual death" (so called) is simply being separated from God because of personal sin, not because of what Adam did.

Do you see what I'm saying here?

Children are not born spiritually dead (Mat 19:14), but they do die physically. And so do Christians. You see, if what you say is true, and the death passed to us from Adam was only spiritual, then born again Christians would not die physically, but they do because of Adams sin which physically separated him and all of us from that tree that would have kept us alive perpetually.

So many deal with this topic from a traditional framework that has failed to take into account everything that the bible actually says about death, sin, and the fall.

Hello fervent

You said,

"...Jesus preached about hell under the law.

Paul was the main man when it came to the post cross grace revelation...spent 14 years in the learning mode...

Do you know that the Apostle Paul only mentioned hell one time in writing two thirds of the new testament it is translated grave in 1 Cor.15:55 and it has no victory"

In the New Testament we also have John speaking in the Book of Revelation about the horrors of hell, and we read verses where Paul said that God comes in flaming fire taking vengence and that Sodom was an example suffering the vengence of eternal fire and in Hebrews we read of hell fire, etc etc, i can find more verses if you want, they are all over the New Testament.

And the hell and lake of fire are forever everlasting damnation eternal punishemnet , their fire shall not be quenched. Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.


In Christ

Bruce

No, I don't see what your saying. Yes a natural death was passed to us as well, because of the curse. As far as us dying spiritually because of our sins, that's not true we are born with a dead soul, children are not born perfect. David the psalmist said that they come from speaking lies. I'm a work and can't give you all the references, but it's pretty easy to prove that Adam brought death to us, both spiritually, and naturally. Alot of the scriptures that I like to use on this subject are in Roms.