One thing that I like about this forum is that there are some that believe in the post-trib resurrection. And most who do believe in the post-trib resurrection know that a flood of persecution of the Great Tribulation in our future. This flood will last for 3 ½ years under the rule of the Anti-Christ who will execute anyone who refuses to take the mark of the beast. And you can be sure, given the technological advances, that within the 3 ½ years they will find everyone who does not take the mark.

Yes, if you are martyred and do not take the mark, then you will be spiritually saved and be in the first resurrection. And it seems that many look forward to being martyred. However, the scriptures do provide us with clues that Mt Zion in Jerusalem is a modern day ark.

My question to you is: Why do you prefer to be martyred than to be alive at Christ’s advent?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
http://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000

Anyone going to Mt Zion to insure their safety, will be terribly disappointed.
Our safety/destiny does not depend on geographical location.

People prepared by Jesus and His Revelation will have a WONDERFUL opportunity for service that will not come to them again. Like a "first impression", it can only happen once.

When the "amazing" day [Rev 13:3,17:8] finally comes, those prepared by Jesus will IMMEDIATELY know the true identity of the "beast". Those prepared will immediately begin making known the truth regarding the "beast".

The prepared will immediately begin warning the world to NOT "worship the beast", to NOT worship his "image" and to NOT take the "mark". [Rev 14]

Naturally Satan is preparing people to argue on behalf of the "beast" [of course they won't refer to the "beast" as the "beast"].

Jesus did not look forward to his coming crucifixtion like it was a "walk in the park". Those who expect to be on earth serving Jesus during the reign of the "beast" don't look forward to being killed as though it were a pleasant event. But this is our "time to shine". Our time to live the faith we proclaim.

Rev 20:4 "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Heb. 11:35 ..... and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

2Cor. 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

Rev, 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:


We are to enter into the sufferings of Christ...the "fellowship" of His sufferings.

This is a privilege.

1Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Amen!!!!

That depends on what you mean by Mt. Zion.
If one views Mt. Zion as a literal place in Jerusalem where the temple stood, you are correct. There is no safety there.

If however one allows the NT writers to define Mt. Zion:

Heb 12:8 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched ... 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. ... 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God... 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant,
There is safety there.
There is perfect safety in Jesus/
3am

No one would "choose" persecution. We believe in the post trib ressurrection and the prophesied persecution of the Church, because that is what the scriptures teach. Jesus commanded the disciples to flee persecution:

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Only a nut "desires" it. But like BrotherJon posted, when confronted with it we have certain promises and graces that are given us, and so we need not fear it either.

I disagree that all men will recieve the mark of the beast too. Considering all the differeing political and social motivations for resisting such control, I feel certain there will be MANY who escape the directive, who are not necessarily doing so because they believe the gospel. Not to mention the scriptures indicate that millions of gentiles will enter the MK in their mortal bodies....this would not be true if one had to be saved to resist the mark of the beast, for anyone then who didn;t take the mark would be raptured, and anyone who did, would be sent to hell. So there must be a group (the sheep nations of Mat 25 I believe) who do not participate in the anti-christ system, but are also not raptured.

As a result, they get to serve Jesus in his temple in the MK, as born again people in their mortal bodies. (Rev 7, the great multitude).

Super,
Not all men, only those who names are not written in the Lamb's book of life. I believe the Bible teaches that all the rest of living humanity at that time will take the mark.

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."Angel means messenger and symbolizes the church proclaiming the Gospel to the entire world, every person on earth will hear the truth about God and be warned about the errors of Babylon (vs 8) and not to worship the beast. This happens before Jesus comes in Judgment (vs13ff).
When Jesus comes, there will be no excuses, everyone will have heard and have been forced to worship the beast under a boycott and death decree. In other words, God never forces us to serve him, but the time is coming when he will force every one to decide. That is what the mark of the beast is all about.

Does that mean every one will have to go to the beast's tattoo shop and get a mark? I believe the mark of the beast is just as symbolic as the beast who enforces it. In the OT God's laws were to be on the hand and forehead. The beast's mark is a counterfeit of God's mark,those who obey the beast will be worshiping the beast, those who obey God are the ones who worship God.
Rev 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

3am

Your premise is in error. Most that believe that the gathering of the elect happens at the end do not hold futurist doctrine, so there would be no 7 year period of tribulation for it to preceed.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 1:9 | egw <1473> {I} iwannhV <2491> {JOHN,} o <3588> {WHO} kai <2532> {ALSO} adelfoV <80> {BROTHER} umwn <5216> {YOUR} kai <2532> {AND} sugkoinwnoV <4791> {FELLOW PARTAKER} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} qliyei <2347> {TRIBULATION} kai <2532> {AND} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} basileia <932> {KINGDOM} kai <2532> {AND} upomonh <5281> {ENDURANCE} ihsou <2424> {OF JESUS} cristou <5547> {CHRIST,}....

Those "the"s are definite articles.

Agreed.



Well, now wait, do they take the mark because they are not written in the book of life, or do they take the mark because they are given a choice between that and God. The latter requires a revelation (that they truely understand the choice they are making), the other requires none at all.

Do ya get my drift here?



Perhaps. I have found that scripture tends to be totally fulfilled, both physically and spiritually. I believe your right, but I also believe they will recieve a physical mark. Otherwise how do they use a spiritual (unseen) mark to control commerce??

Not sure I really understand your point, but rapture timing does not rest upon the particular millenial stance one holds to. There are many post trib believers who are pre-millenial. In fact, the closest known disciples of John himself (Polycarp, Iraeneus, and Hippolytus) were post-tribulational and pre-millenial.

So am I.

First can I be so bold as to recommend a smaller font in your signature so that pages you are involved in don't require as much scrolling? Thanks.

Since I am my brother John's fellow partaker in THE tribulation, I believe it began at least with the beginning of the Christian era, or perhaps back when Cain slew Able. So for any gathering of the elect to be "pre" the tribulation it would have had to preceed at least when John was writing that I was his fellow partaker in it.

Your majority is a minority. Only those that hold John Darby's futurist doctrine measure a 7 year period of tribulation for the "rapture" to be "pre". Not Catholics, preterists, or those that hold a traditional linear historic understanding such as myself. Nor do I hold a millennial reign doctrine.

Yes, you may suggest it.....



That's an odd belief. This is the first I've heard it. Can you support it with scripture?



The truth is usually not held in the majority, but it is seldom a minority either (2 Pet 1:20).



I don't hold to a 7 year tribulation. I believe that, just as the 69 weeks of Daniel were perfectly fulfilled, so the 70th will be as well. The tribulation period lasts 42 months. Whether it is a part of the 70th week is yet to be seen. But the 70th week is a 7 year period like all the rest. It may have past, but the tribulation period is yet future:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I should think this alone should be enough to tell you, your doctrine is in error.



Understood. Thanks.

I agree with you. Many post tribs believe the 70 weeks were continuous time and are completed. Marked by, but not including the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD. I believe that.
But it almost sounds like you are saying that the great tribulation has been going on for a while, perhaps even since Cain and Able. I believe Cain and Able were a type of the end time, and the church has endured much tribulation as the Seals and Trumpets unfolded. However, the 7 last plagues, when God's wrath is completed has not happened yet. The 144000 have to be sealed, and they will emerge from the Great Tribulation victorious, I believe as the uncountable multitude. I have written extensively about that else where. Then the 7 angels leave the sanctuary in heaven filled with smoke (Rev 15). That is the place where Christ administers the blood of His sacrifice and His grace on behalf of repentant sinners. At that point, no one can enter. Every destiny is fixed. Then God pours out the bowls of His wrath on those who worship the beast and have his mark.

Before that time, The church preaches the Gospel to every living person on earth (Rev 14:1-12), they are forced to choose between the beast or God. That is the purpose of the Mark of the Beast. Once every decision is made, then smoke fills the temple and the final cup of god's wrath is poured out. That will be different from the tribulation the church suffers. Many lost their lives throughout history, but none will lose their lives in the great tribulation. God promised to keep us from the hour of trial. That is why we are sealed. But protection or keeping us from the plagues, does not mean a rapture from the earth as dispensationalists believe. It is God's effort to bring every soul to repentance first and then to destroy those who refuse to obey him and cause suffering to his people, that causes the entire universe to shout, "Just and true are your ways, Lord God Almighty." Revelation is about the vindication of God's government in the face of severe attacks by Satanic agencies, the beast, etc. That was the purpose of the cross (Romans 3:25f). Revelation consummates what was done on the cross in the vindication of God. He is the one who is Just and Justifies those who have sinned. Revelation is the place where soteriology and eschatology meet. The Lamb is the hero not the beast!

The key is to recognize the church in the symbols through out the book of Revelation.
Dispensationalists cannot do that because they are locked in by a hermeneutic of "literalism" which does not allow Israel to be a type of the church. That is their biggest problem. They ignore the NT writers interpretation of the Scriptures.
You and Super are bring up good stuff.
I am enjoying the dialog immensely. It is fun to discuss the Bible with out all of the insults, put downs and name calling.
But Need more time more will be forthcoming.
Problem is that you guys keep adding to the posts and it gets confusing as to who is saying what.
I try to pick out the elements I am referring to in a quote, and leave out the rest. Just a suggestion.
3am

Preterists (and partial) believe the 70 weeks were completed in 70 AD. I don't believe that. The question for those who believe it was over is, how were the "times of the Gentiles" fulfilled, referenced in the Olivet Discourse? Who could claim the Old Testament saints didn't suffer persecution? Indeed throughout their dispersion.
[edit add] I believe that tribulation has been going on since Cain slew Able, but a particularly intense period is discussed by Jesus that He characterizes as being in his future (shall be). I believe this is the tribulation of the Christian era.
A million Jews were killed in 70 AD and an already long since desolate temple was torn down. Just a number of decades later another 750 thousand Jews were killed again at Roman hands. It would seem the "teims of the Gentiles" weren't fulfilled in 70 AD. Indeed Gentiles ruled Jerusalem until 1967. The end of the "times of the Gentiles". While they lay claim to a literal hermeneutic I don't know of any that believe that there will be a literal scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns and a harlot on it's back roaming the earth. What they seem to mean is that they take things literally when it suits their/Darby's doctrine, and those things that don't are not literal and can be interpretated in any fashion that suits their doctrine. Certainly the hallmark of those who have difficulty in the scriptures.Here is a book that is absolutely free that presents a very cohesive eschatology and discusses FULFILLED prophecy, not speculation about the future or a state of denial regarding the prophecies in regard to the restoration of the Jews to our land. Enjoy: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_great_detective.htm