Yes, yesterday Monday 12-4-2007, driving down the road, between
1:30-2:00 pm . . . the clear message was :

Obedience is better than sacrifice . . .


Here is the inside interp ....
I have listed the excerpt about Saul, regarding the obedience better than sacrifice. I am seeking
other Biblical stories, that mirror this theme. Thank you . . .

This excerpt, is what I believe about the message . . .

http://www.chucksmoot.net/sermons-obedience.html
To know that when the Lord tells you to give of your time, your talent, and your possessions, that is not just so you will have to make a sacrifice. By giving of those things, and being obedient, your spirit will grow, your walk with God comes closer because you are submitting to the ultimate power and the ultimate authority, that you acknowledge your creator in all your ways and that you do everything for the glory and honor of God.


Click here: Obedience
http://www.torahbytes.org/59-20.htm

But it is to this that Samuel replies, "To obey is better than sacrifice" (1 Samuel 15:22).


http://www.chucksmoot.net/sermons-obedience.html
Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah! "The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.



Is Obedience is better than Sacrifice?

To sacrifice means to give up. In order to sacrifice, you must relieve yourself of something, be it money, possessions, or maybe even a part of yourself. But when you make a sacrifice to God, you are just returning to Him what was His in the first place. And not to say that sacrifices are not important, because they are. However, sacrifices only represent that you acknowledge God, not that you are necessarily following what God is telling you to do.

But obedience is another thing all together. Until recently, I did not like the statement "Obedience is better than sacrifice." And mostly it was because I did not fully understand the concept. I did not truly understand what the difference was. I thought that if you sacrificed what you had for the good of the Lord, then you were fulfilling your commitment to God and fulfilling His commandments. It seems that while I was not entirely wrong, I was not entirely wrong.

According to Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, the definition of obey is as follows: 1. To give ear to; to execute the commands of; to yield submission to; to comply with the orders of; 2. To submit to the authority of; to be ruled by; 3. To yield to the impulse, power, or operation of; as, a ship obeys her helm.

So we see, that obey has meaning meanings, several of which we have problems with. According to the definition I just read, a synonym of obey is submit. And we all have a problem with the whole act of submission. Somehow the notion of submission is something that we just can't accept. Sure, racially and historically speaking, there is reason to get uncomfortable with the act of submission and that's fine. But when we inject gender issues into the word of God, then we have problems.

To know that when the Lord tells you to give of your time, your talent, and your possessions, that is not just so you will have to make a sacrifice. By giving of those things, and being obedient, your spirit will grow, your walk with God comes closer because you are submitting to the ultimate power and the ultimate authority, that you acknowledge your creator in all your ways and that you do everything for the glory and honor of God.

Hey CSA,

The Bible is very clear about this. If your kids are disobedient you beat them, if they have the nerve to talk back to you, you should kill them. Scripture gives us very specific instructions on this subject.
For us adults the message is basically the same: You either accept the message from Jesus and love him and do as you are told or you will be punished with everlasting pain.

So it is basically: "Love me or else......."

What a fine and wholesome doctrine.

I am all for it, if you as an unbeliever wants to discuss on things this forum, but you have to understand that it will not be a free to insult session. If you are going to interject just with posts like this, then it will not last long.
This is the debate forum and you will see many heated discussions and people who differ vastly. Even this is in the Bible, (the very fact that many will disagree) but even so: Please be respectful.
Some of these people on this forum might seem to you to be enemies, but believe me, when they meet , they still have coffee together and love each other.
We have some from all walks of life and from many denominations, so agreement is rare.

C

I think you will find the spirit of rebellion very prevalent. Obedience and submission is not something people do very well. Pride and arrogance always get in the way.

Good message !

God Bless,
K.D.

Yea like KD here. I love him a lot, but we lock horns on many issues and to outsiders it might seem that we dislike each other, but truth be told, he has been on this forum a long time and I know him as a person of patience and love.
I disagree with him, but I really love him too. But then again Christians ARE a peculiar people.

C

ouch, Pride and arrogance, do indeed plague us all, me none the least. I was less than gracious on a different post. I apologize for any offence.

God Bless,
K.D.

No offence taken

C

Yeah, KD...you really hurt my feelings!

C,

It does warn people in the heading of this section that you should not dwell here if you are " easily offended".
Respect is something I extend to people who deserve it. Ridicule and sarcasm are far too dear to me to abandon all together. Especially when I am faced with gratuitous nonsense. I am sure most of you here are all fine ladies and fellows and we would get along fine at Starbucks or over a pint in the pub.

But I am still waiting for your argument.
Does, or does it not say in your precious book that you have to kill your children if they talk back to you ?
And if so, what bizarre morality and wisdom is the All Mighty bestowing on us here ?

As you know, all Christians are childless, because we kill them the first time they talk back to us. We have a Christian adoption center, well its more like a replacement center for the parents in need of a new victim.

C

Funny C,

Now how about answering my question ?

Contrary to what you might have been told about Christians, who are all out to get everybody saved, I am not one of them. I know that you have no real interest in what we call truth. To you its foolishness. Me on the other hand, do have better things to do than to waste time playing games with you. But you most probably will find somebody willing to do so.

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.

COMMENTARY via crownsevenalphabet:

Visarion:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21, might be the scripture you are asking about ?

Similar laws of Lakota and/or Hopi Tribal rituals of law, are also common. The scripture seems to be
reflecting ; he is a glutton and a drunkard.

I would think that most children are not engaged in drunkard behavior, although we may have some
obesity gluttonous American bad habit's. Look's like either I need to call Jenny Craig, or have
a good seamstress let out some garments of my own . . . ( ha ! )

My studies regarding the civilizations of Mayan, also had barbaric notions as did my ancestry
of the 'Celts'. Which by no means, could the British underground tunnel's of London, have
dreamed of torture ' racks ' without the direct cultural contributions of the Roman Empire.

I think in my opinion, just as Jesus Christ, our Messiah, the Son of the Almighty God (IHVH),
directly stood against marriage to more than one wife . . .

. . . Which was not the law of Moses . . .

And Jesus, told the established hierarchy the law of divorce was manmade, not God (IHVH) made.

Jesus clearly instructed that one man/one woman as the Garden of Eden microcosm, was the perfect
example of proper law of marriage.

Using this metaphor, I think many laws used in the example of marriage I just
referenced, versus the kill your children if they talk back to you . . . that you Visarion, are
bringing to ' light ' . . . are manmade law.

As I described in the example of civilization's listed above, we are to use discernment
about prophecy, the commandments of Mount Sinai and New Testament Teaching's of Jesus.

In my opinon, the Hebrew law to : ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ (21) Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) . . .

. . . is not a Ten commandment law. And I put many laws under manmade, as Christ
demonstrated and instructed . . . not the law of the Father God (IHVH) . . . but due to
the HARDNESS of your heart's . . . you broke the one man / one woman law of God (IHVH).

That is my answer to your question.

And here is a neat web link of many scriptures about parents/children.

Blessings !






Click here: Bible Verses About Parents, Children, Mothers & Fathers
http://ministry-to-children.com/christian-...others-fathers/
Ephesians 6:1-4 ESV Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. (2) “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), (3) “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.” (4) Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.


Deuteronomy 6:4-9 ESV “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (5) You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (6) And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. (7) You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. (8) You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. (9) You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

Luke 2:48-52 ESV And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” (49) And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” (50) And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. (51) And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart. (52) And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.

Luke 18:28-30 ESV And Peter said, “See, we have left our homes and followed you.” (29) And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, (30) who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

John 9:3-5 ESV Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. (4) We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. (5) As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

2 Corinthians 12:13-15 ESV For in what were you less favored than the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not burden you? Forgive me this wrong! (14) Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you. For children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. (15) I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less?

Colossians 3:20 ESV Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

1 Timothy 5:3-4 ESV Honor widows who are truly widows. (4) But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 ESV But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. (2) For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, (3) heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, (4) treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, (5) having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Colossians 3:20-24 ESV Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. (21) Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. (22) Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. (23) Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, (24) knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Proverbs 1:8-9 ESV Hear, my son, your father’s instruction, and forsake not your mother’s teaching, (9) for they are a graceful garland for your head and pendants for your neck.

Proverbs 30:17 ESV The eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out by the ravens of the valley and eaten by the vultures.

Proverbs 7:1-3 ESV My son, keep my words and treasure up my commandments with you; (2) keep my commandments and live; keep my teaching as the apple of your eye; (3) bind them on your fingers; write them on the tablet of your heart.

Leviticus 19:3 ESV Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, (19) then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, (20) and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ (21) Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Exodus 20:12 ESV “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

Exodus 21:15-17 ESV “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death. (16) “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death. (17) “Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Titus 2:3-5 ESV Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, (4) and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, (5) to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Deuteronomy 4:9-10 ESV “Only take care, and keep your soul diligently, lest you forget the things that your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. Make them known to your children and your children’s children– (10) how on the day that you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, the LORD said to me, ‘Gather the people to me, that I may let them hear my words, so that they may learn to fear me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children so.’

Deuteronomy 11:19 ESV You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Joel 1:2-3 ESV Hear this, you elders; give ear, all inhabitants of the land! Has such a thing happened in your days, or in the days of your fathers? (3) Tell your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children to another generation.

Psalms 78:2-8 ESV I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings from of old, (3) things that we have heard and known, that our fathers have told us. (4) We will not hide them from their children, but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the LORD, and his might, and the wonders that he has done. (5) He established a testimony in Jacob and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers to teach to their children, (6) that the next generation might know them, the children yet unborn, and arise and tell them to their children, (7) so that they should set their hope in God and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments; (8) and that they should not be like their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation, a generation whose heart was not steadfast, whose spirit was not faithful to God.

Psalms 103:13 ESV As a father shows compassion to his children, so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear him.

Proverbs 10:1 ESV The proverbs of Solomon. A wise son makes a glad father, but a foolish son is a sorrow to his mother.

Psalms 112:1-2 ESV Praise the LORD! Blessed is the man who fears the LORD, who greatly delights in his commandments! (2) His offspring will be mighty in the land; the generation of the upright will be blessed.

Visarion, the law inwhich you speak of is a Mosaic law, meant to govern a very special people with a very special mission. I, as a gentile, was never held to this law. Abraham commited his decsendants to the priesthood of humanity, and through the ages a line of patriarchs re-itterated this agreement. The Bible tells us, even if it is pretty much common sense, that the more that is given to us, then the more that is expected in return. Some pretty powerful events took place in behalf of the Israelites. Indeed, in return for their highly esteemed position in the universe they had to walk a hard line.

I have learned not to question God's wisdom.

sojourner

'Learning not to question' is an oxymoron.

V.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psalm 51:17





Micah 6:6-8

6 With what shall I come before the LORD
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?

7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly

and to love mercy

and to walk humbly

with your God.

My wife and I have 8 children. We disciplined them with a wooden spoon only if they refused to listen. We taught them from the bible. Our children are models of good behavior. They are loving people. They thank us for caring for them and giving them a godly upbringing. I see that in our society, people have taken to pussy-footing around with rebelliousness and ignore sound teaching from the bible. Et voila, lawlessness abounds! I challenge any atheist to bring his children and compare them to ours. The proof is in the pudding

Shalom in the home

John

RAPTURE VERSUS OBEDIENCE 'WHY 8 PEOPLE IN THE ARK'?

8 people were saved on the ark of Noah.

And . . . although Moses lead Israel out of Egypt, Moses could not enter the promised
land.

The wandering of the Hebrew for 40 years, was to chastize them, to purify the
elect amongst them. By the end of 40 years, the idol Egypt worshipers were about
dead and sorted out . . .

And then Moses dies.

Joshua, re-circumcizes @Gil-Gal . . . and they cross Jordan, in flood season . . .
a miracle like the parting of the Red Sea for Moses.

The re-circumcizing is a symbol of santification to enter across to Promised Land.

So look what it took to get the idolatry out of Israel, the blood of Moses and Joshua
lived to 110 years old.

FEW WILL MAKE THE RAPTURE IN THE EQUATION OF THE WORLD NUMBERS
OF SIN AND PEOPLE.

That's just fascinating John.

Now, how about answering my question....... does it or does it not say in the bible that you should kill your child if it talks back to you?

It is very telling that the 'ahum' bible scholars here seem very uncomfortable with this question.

It seems to me to that there is only a yes or no answer to this.

This utterly lame explanation that for the Israelites 'special' rules applied is obscurantism of the most uncouth kind.

So, get on with it.

Does god say you should kill your own child if it talks back to you or not?
And if so, why aren't you murdering your own children when they hit puberty and start rebelling as most of them do?
After all, it is the Word of your Lord.

Just so you know, I have on my desk a very fine copy of the KJ bible and I know what it says.

Have the courage of your convictions for once and stop beating around the bush.

As always I wait in vain for just that a hint of intellectual (or biblical) honesty.

V.

Sacrifices were of two kinds: 1. Unbloody, such as (1) first-fruits and tithes; (2) meat and drink-offerings; and (3) incense. 2. Bloody, such as (1) burnt-offerings; (2) peace-offerings; and (3) sin and trespass offerings. (See OFFERINGS .)



http://www.studylight.org/dic/ebd/view.cgi?number=T3179

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...ience&t=KJV


(obedience)
occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the KJV
Page 1 / 1 (Rom 1:5 - 1Pe 1:2)


2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


2Cr 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

~

I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.

The thing is Visarion.

If you ask God for His Spirit and mean it. You will understand.

But while you are hating Him, you will never understand.







~

Good Morning Endtime :


http://dnascienceconstructspathtogod.blogs...reignty-of.html

Sovereignty is the exclusive right to have control over an area of governance, people, or oneself. A sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority.


The above is my belief.

It is not V's belief.

However, I find that Visarion is a loving man, with a heart of gold, I like him and I admire
many of his personal attributes.

As an infidel, Visarion has been a helpful insider @forum.


Seems many days, I can read Christian responses to one another and they are neither
any more hateful or disgusting than when V, is on his intellectual role !

And this is for you V :

Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?


Thank you, you made me laugh this morning Endtime, and laughter is great and a healer !



I laughed at thinking of V, reading your response ! Did you know he is atheist ?


p.s.
I am sending him this thread, I like to be open ( up front ) when I print someones
name, I feel they should know I did.


I hope to learn many things from you Endtime, as I have been learning also many things
from V . . .


PEACE !