The events of the Lord's hour of trial will take place between these two passages of scripture,

Beginning - Revelation 6:12-17
The beginning of the tribulation of those days
earthquake [note 8:5]
darkness: caused by the destruction on the earth [note 8:7-13]
stars [fallen angelics] falling to the earth [note 9:1-21, 12:4,9]
humans intransigent attitude and their hiding from the Lord's coming wrath [note 8:7-13, 9:1-21, 16:1-21]
no sign of the Son of Man
earth dwellers do not see Him
no gatherings

Ending - Matthew:29-30
after the tribulation of those days
no earthquake [note Rev 16:18. This quake at Armageddon will occur before the end of the tribulation]
darkness: caused by the cosmic disturbances.
stars [cosmic] falling [cosmic disturbances], not to the earth [just one would obliterate the earth]
sign of the Son of Man
earth dwellers see Him
humans mourn when they see Him
gatherings of the mortals of Israel and the nations that are left

You're going to make me work for this aren't you... I'll have to go to those scripture and piece it together. But you're telling me the tribulation (great tribulation) starts with a massive earthquake...

Yes. [Revelation 6:12, 8:5] Another will occur at the end of the period during the battle of Armageddon ..... the biggest one of all time [Ezekiel 38:19, Revelation 16:18]

So then it is a possibilty the sun will be darkened twice...

Yes. At the beginning of the period (and during the period of tribulation) and at the end. The first "darkening" will most likely be caused by the debris from the destruction that will take place on the earth. The atmosphere will be filled with smoke and burning. If one is on the earth and near the areas destroyed, the sun's rays will be obscured ..... and so will the moon's reflection. Quakes can cause this condition and so will the destruction of MBG's "great city" for example. The destructions of the period will be massive.

The ending "darkening" will be caused by cosmic disturbances that the Lord will invoke in relation to His appearance to the world. The Lord will mark His hour of trial with these two beginning and ending events. The great quakes mentioned also separate the time frame. There is another quake mentioned in relation to the resurrection of the Lord's two prophets in Revelation 11. These two will serve during the last 1,260 days of the period so this quake is most likely a different one than the great ending Armageddon quake in Revelation 16. The battle of Armageddon will take place in the next 30 days just after the end of the second 1,260 and the last and greatest quake will occur during the battle.

Thanks...a terrible time to be alive...

It will be a terrible time to fall into the hands of an angry God His wrath is pent up against unbelief.

Miki,
Since your are going to work by going into the Scripture to pice it together, let me give you a little more to work on.
Here is some food for thought. It is very brief, I could write tons more but I hope it makes the point.

There is another way to look at this.
Most scholars with the exception of dispensationalists, believe that Revelation assumes the literary structure of a chiasmus. That is, a literary device common to Hebrew writers, where words or concepts are repeated in a reverse order for emphasis.

That means there are correlations or counterparts between the early portion of the book and the later part. For Instance, there is a prologue (1:1-11) which indicates the purpose of the book, “show things shortly to pass,” Christ as Alpha and Omega, Christ’s parousia, the blessing on those who read the messages and etc. These very same items are repeated in the epilogue (22: 6-21)

The prologue is followed by seven promises to seven churches in chapters 2 & 3. Their counterpart is found in the seven end time visions of Rev 19:11 - 22:1. They can be identified by the introductory words “I saw.” They relate to each other as divine promises and fulfillment, the church embattled and the church victorious. Both units begin with a splendid “Christ appearance” (1:12-18 and 19:11-16). One can easily see the 7 letters are written to 7 local congregations, but on deeper study, one can trace a movement from the church in John’s time to the eventful Christian age until she safely enters the City of God in Paradise restored on earth. The promises of Christ in the 7 letters show a significant progressiveness, pointing increasingly to His second coming.

Next comes the Victorious Vision, the throne room and the Lamb deemed worthy to open the seals (4:1 - 5:14). It’s counterpart, Christ receives the kingdom of the world, the 24 elders (for 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles) praise and worship God, the Judgment, the temple in heaven is open and the ark of the covenant revealed (11:15-19).

This section is followed by the seven seals, with her counterpart, the seven plagues in Chapter 16. Especially noteworthy is that both the seals and the plagues end with an earthquake and the destruction of all of the cities of the nations. The seals are a promise of Gods deliverance with the sealing, the plagues, the fulfillment of that promise on those who worship the beast and take his mark. The 144000 are present in both. The 6th seal promises the “great day of the wrath of God.” The seven plagues are the climax, the completeness of God’s wrath (15:1).

I hope you will check these things out. I dont have time to list all of the verses and comparisons here. However it is not that difficult to see. Revelation, like it’s OT counterpart, Daniel is not a chronological, sequential book. Like Daniel with it’s parallel layers (Ch 2, 7,8 and 11) Revelation too consists of parallel layers moving from promise to fulfillment.

This is just a very brief sketch, I hope not too brief that it isn't as clear as it should be. Volumes have been written on the literary structure of the book. But my point is, this arrangement of literary patterns emphasizes the unity of the book of Revelation. Such a composition forbids us from isolating any one verse or portion from the totality of the book. That would mean it is not legitimate to separate the Seven letters to the Seven Churches from the rest of the book by arbitrarily dividing it between the Church and Israel. If there was ever a book that needs to be studied in a Christ centered way, it would be “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Furthermore, any attempt to portray Jesus’ Olivet Discourse on the end time in Mat 24 as anything other than an answer to the Disciple’s (church) question about the destruction and the end of the world does violence to the structure of Revelation. It is interesting to note that unlike the other Gospels, there is no Olivet discourse in the Gospel of John. The Apocalypse is his Olivet Discourse or John’s equivalent to Mat 24. The disciples could not in their minds distinguish between the end of the age and the destruction of the temple. Jesus carefully worded his answer to include both. He saw in the destruction of Jerusalem, a promise of the fulfillment in the end of the age. Jesus said to His fledgling church, “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear (Jn 16:12-13). He gave them only what they can bear. The entire Olivet discourse was given to the disciples, after Jesus had told the leaders of national Israel that the kingdom of God would be taken away from them and given to a nation that would produce fruit, and after he told the fledgling church, “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom (Lk 12:32). Jesus spoke to them, to expect all of the things he mentioned he consistently used the words, you, your. They, would see the abomination of desolation standing in standing in the holy place. Separation of the church from the Olivet discourse is a tragic failure to apply good gramatical- historical principles of exegesis.

Follow the Lamb
3am

3AM's theology is anti-semitic and it does not recognize the first followers of the Lord as national Israelites .... and the generation of national Israel that will be living in the Land of Israel at the time of the end ..... the believing remnant of national Israel who will flee into the wilderness. These are those who will be living in Israel only ..... not Gentile believers in the nations. No Gentile of the nations will ever experience this event [Zechariah 14:4-5]. How absurd to believe that the Church will move to "Judea" at the time of the end and then escape into the eastern wilderness from the beast and his followers. [Revelation 12:4,6]

Anti-semitic?
I am saying that every Jew can have every promise fulfilled to them now in Christ and forever with Him when he comes for his church.
I am saying that instead of settling for a piece of real estate that they are constantly having to fight for,
they can have Jesus now.
I am telling them that instead of feeling the brunt of the wrath of God, they can be protected through the tribulation if they are "In Christ."
If that is anti-Semitic, so be it. But I stand with Jesus and Paul and all of the other NT writers.
As far as not recoginzing the first followers of the Lord as national Israelites.
That is blatantly false. I have always acknowledged that Paul himself was an Israelite.
What I did say is that that he was already at that time a part of the remnant of Israel in fulfillment of OT promises, not because he is a physical Jew but like us, because he is a believer.
You are not being honest in saying what I believe.

How privileged the Jews are!

Here you go again!
You know good and well that I have never said that, have written to you over and over that that is not what I am saying.
The prophecies are being fulfilled in Jesus and the church. I have shown over and over that the NT writers, when talking about fulfilled OT prophecies, disregard ethnic and geographic boundaries. James saw Gentiles coming into he church as a fulfillment of the restoration of Jerusalem to possess the remnant of Edom. He was obviously not talking about Gentiles going to Jerusalem from Edom. Was he being absurd? The church is universal and global not limited to geography. If Israel is now Spiritual Israel, the church, then the boundaries no longer apply. If you disagree with that, then show scripture that refute what James and others taught. Yet you keep making it look like I believe we all have to go to Judea or Jerusalem, setting up a straw man shooting it down and trying to make me look absurd. Was the writer of Hebrews absurd when he said, "You have come to Mt. Zion, a Mt. that cannot be touched?" You are bearing false witness when you do that. It is not an honest approach to Scripture.
3am

Agreed. I won't waste my time trying to share this simple truth with someone who is unable/unwilling to see things through the Spirit. How frustrating. The time is coming when these things will be evident for all to see. Many will be offended when they realize the pre-trib rapture was an incorrect understanding of end times events.

They will still be here while all the trumpet judgments sound. Massive death all over the world...pestilence, war..famine...and they will still be here.

But before the BOWLS (Rev. 15 ) that are filled with the Wrath of God are poured out....the sun and moon will be darkened and Jesus will descend to raise the dead in Christ and take those who are alive and REMAIN home.

LOL, Oh dear brother, in all my years on the forum I have never read the truth in such profound simple terms. I must admit that I am laughing, because it is funny, but at the same time so incredibly , incredibly true.

The "promised Land" is available to each and everyone. Praise God !

C

Some of you just talk in tongues all the time...

The only ones that can follow along are the other teachers.

Here's a clue...

Be ready NOW then you don't have to worry about it.

Hi Miki,
Not sure what you mean by talking in tongues unless you mean that some things that some
people write are hard to understand. But at Pentecost everyone who heard them speak in tongues understood.
Oh well, I haven't received the gift of tongues yet.
But I have been used by God to lead thousands to Christ through the years.
Sometimes it helps to keep your "sword" sharp by dialoging with people who like
to probe the deeper things of God's word. The deeper your understanding, the easier it is
to skim the cream off the top.
Having said that, I always want to be able to
break down even the deep things so that everyone can understand. So if some of my stuff
is not clear then I would appreciate questions that would help me clarify it.
Thanks for the gentle reminder
You are so right! That is the danger of an over emphasis on being perfect. I am not judging anyone this forum. I am aware of the discussions taking place. I fully believe we should strive to perfect every aspect of our walk with Christ. But if over emphasized, it can reach the point that people lose the assurance of their present walk with God. That is what concerns me. We see that so often.

But there is another side to it all.
We are not only responsible for maintaining our own salvation and walk, we are all commissioned to preach the Gospel to others. And the Bible has a lot to say about making sure your doctrine is sound. It has a lot of warnings against false doctrine. If the pre-trib rapture is not sound doctrine but false, then millions of people mistakenly believe they will have a second chance after the rapture. Even Jews are being taught that there will be a special evangelistic outreach for them. True they will have to endure the tribulation, but what is 7 years compared to eternity? This is not pipe dreaming, it is human nature to put off and procrastinate. I have been at this long enough to have seen for myself this attitude. Now we could blow it off, and say that they are just not sincere people. Who knows that, besides God? And are we really giving them a fair chance by teaching things that are not true.
But the bottom line is, that we have no assurance of being alive until Jesus comes anyway.
Yes, we need to be ready now.
Thanks Miki,
3am

I've put off the old nature...

Believe this 3am:

People who are really saved and have had a born again experience have a driving force with in them to know God...walk in faith and continually put off the old nature...Not procrastinating like those still looking to religion and worldly ways to save them.

My new nature is clothed in grace, mercy, hope and love and l regularly have to cleanse myself.

What some don't seem to understand on this forum is that l'm not lying about my salvation and my desire to live for the Lord. I'm not secretly this lukewarm person that needs to come out of pretrib theory to be saved...nonsense...just nonsense and a grasping at straws. I'm not mad at you...just frustrated that you like others on this forum have classified groups of people and defined them according to your cookie cutter understanding. I'm just telling you it's not so. Blessings to you anyway...let the Lord be the judge.

Whoa!
Who said I was talking about you?
I looked back at my post and cant find any indication that I said "you" tend to procrastinate.
Look again. I was talking about preaching the Gospel to others, now I didn't say it explicitly, but my thought was to those who are not yet saved, but are procrastinating making their decision.
I wasnt talking about you until I came to the agreement with you that we need to be ready now.
That includes you and me and assumes we are ready and need to stay ready.
I never said that you were. My! You are really being defensive this morning
My understanding is that you have not even decided it the pre-trib is correct. i did read that in one of your posts. But I do not believe we are saved by our knowledge of the truth. I was simply pointing out the dangers of teaching others something that is not true. In that sense 'Doctrine" does matter and is especially important.
If I have written in a way that does judge you that was totally not my intent and I ask forgiveness.
3am

2Cor. 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Perfecting holiness in the FEAR of God.

This is VERY important.

Most of the "church" ignores this commandment....I don't.

This should be preached with passion to the Laodicean Church of these days.

Forgive me brother, but I have to say something. If you say "strive to be perfect" you might as well still be walking under the law, because they also strived to keep it perfectly.

If you will hear me today, you will be free.

I do not know it all, but this I do know: Perfection (like salvation) is a gift .You cannot strive for a GIFT.
That gift has another name:Christ

So , this is ALL LINKED with: Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest

I do NOT walk in perfection, YET I CLAIM perfection, because it is not me,but I claim the perfection of HIM that live IN ME.

If you sold your house and moved out, and a Russian moved in: Who is living in your house"
A Russian.

If you died and Christ now lives in you: Who lives in you?
Christ.

Is Christ imperfect?

No.

Which eyes do I use to see this truth: The eyes of FAITH, which makes me REST (Hebrews 4) and now its up to God to bring me into that which I believe.
He WILL also look at me and judge me according to my faith: SO????? He already sees me perfect, because HE says: Let it be to you according to your faith.

Why must I strive , if I have it?
Who lives in YOUR house? You or Christ?

(We all know that we are not perfect in manifestation yet, but we all must be found to be in faith. )

C

I understand the Gospel. My perfection is Jesus Christ and the perfect life he lived for me. Christ is my righteousness.
"I am not walking under the law."
"Striving to keep the law perfectly as "they" did is not "walking under the law".
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it (Jas 2:10).

"They" were striving to keep the law perfectly in order to be saved." That is walking under the law"".
Christ is our perfection. He kept the law perfectly for us.

But that does not mean there are no battles to fight.
It does not happen automatically.
Paul had to strive, "So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man" (Ac 24:16).

"Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus (Php 3:12-14).

"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry (Col 3:1-5).

We had died..... therefore put to death...
Our salvation is safe in Christ as long as we remain in him.
But those who are in him will allow him to work out his life in us.
That process is not finished until we receive our new glorified bodies.

Miki got it right!
Even though we have put to death the old nature, and Christ is in us, we still have battles to fight. We still stumble and cry out with Paul, "O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
We still have a need to be cleansed daily.

We still have a need to pray David's prayer:
Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults. 13 Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then will I be blameless, innocent of great transgression (Ps 19:12-13). Perfection comes with Christ, confessing even our hidden sins we are not even aware of and striving to let God keep us from willful sin.
If you are saying that, I agree.
If you are saying that perfection means we no longer make mistakes, we no longer have to confess and receive forgiveness, I have a problem with that.
3am

3am.... Generalizations....

l'm not just speaking here to you...but to anybody who wants to hear it.

Like Christian Television. It's all wicked and evil...That's all l ever hear and it's simply not true.

It's insulting and condescending just as admonishing people who are pre trib that they are in need of your enlightening. It won't save them 3am. Only Christs blood will do that. No l'm not set in stone on the rapture but l know condescension when l see it. Grouping people into cookie cutter molds gets really tiring.

I am saying that.

I think, the point where we all miss each other, is when I say: Its done.
Also - I agree with you totally about this - we need to stay in Christ. For me, "in Christ" means to walk in agreement with the Word, as well as having faith that He is indeed in me. So if I stay in Christ (in the Word) regarding my "perfection" or maturity, then that is a position that I do not compromise on: Thus: If somebody asks me: Are you perfect? Then I must agree with the Word and say "Yes", and add like Paul" Not that I have obtained it yet.

As a Christian I am speaking the truth, although to the world I am saying two opposites ! That is what faith is !

So the same when I get sick. I first take the promise: Through His stripes we WERE healed.
I then pray for healing.
Then I keep that confession of faith on my lips. (This is being found IN Christ)
I can still see and feel sick
When I stay in faith, God brings the manifestation of the healing.
(Sometimes He heals immediately and not according to the above, but this is my experience and the way that God works with me )
But God wants me to only look at the promise: Through His stripes we were healed.
He does not want me to look at the 'reality' but I must look at the reality of the Word, above the reality of my circumstances.
Its Moses and the copper snake: Look at the snake on the pole (Jesus on the cross) and get healed , but if you look at the snakes (sickness and curses) on the ground, you will get bitten and not get well.

So in perfection: we also look in faith and call it DONE, then we will have it.
If we ONLY see the fact that we are struggling and the fact that we are not yet perfect, we will stay immature.

Faith brings results
C

Worrying isn't the issue.

Jesus didn't tell us these things just to be telling us. He wants us to know, so that we CAN watch and be ready. It often amazes me that pre-tribbers say they want everyone to be saved, and say that God wants the same, yet he is going to sneak up and close the door at a rapture that will leave men in a hell on earth for 7 years, and that without the aid of the Holy Spirit. Talk about anti-semetic!

Lets read the scriptures to see if those things are so, shall we?



Right away we know he's ignoring the teachings of Jesus Christ:

All of the following happen at generally the same time. Please note the obvious similarities which are so often being ignored or explained away simply for the sake of an escape.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


It is clear that chapter 8-11 is a recapping of the events which begin with the AOD as described by Jesus.

And at Chapter 10 he tells us when it will end:

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Note that one of the signs of the sixth seal, are shown again just prior to the 7th trumpet:

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

This refers to Jerusalem and is an event that is repeated again in Rev 16:19 (see below).

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.

Note too the order. Just as Jesus teaching in Mat 24, and Rev 6, and now here.

1. GREAT cosmic and terrestrial signs
2. The leaders mourn
2. The Trumpet sounds
3. The elect are gathered

The events of Rev 12:1-13 obviously happened prior to, and just after Christs death and ressurrection. It is again, just a recapitulation. Revelation has several of them. All one need do is read it, without any interpretation except that which history, and scripture provides.

Look at the events of chp 16:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

He "gathered" them. This is clearly at the END of the tribulation just before the day of the Lord.

See Joel 3:9-17 for the OT prophecy regarding this event. See especially the order of that prophecy. The day of the Lord begins AFTER the cosmic signs, which are, as our Lord has said, AFTER the tribulation, not before. I suggest a search on "day of the Lord" (especially in the KJV) for the same order of events in each passage that discusses the cosmic signs.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Again, a GREAT earthquake. Not just AN earthquake, but a GREAT one.

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

See Rev 11:13 above.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

See Rev 6:14.

Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

In chp 16 he is gathering them to Armageddon. Then we must skip the next two chapters, as they are a look at what happens right after Armageddon. Then he jumps back to the same point again in chp 19.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

HERE is where we see the day of the Lord, and Armageddon begin. AFTER the signs of chp 16 have passed. And just as Jesus said in Mat 24, this occurs AFTER the tribulation.

As I have made clear here, the claim that these are different events cannot be supported except by simply claiming it. It is quite obvious when one reads it that they ALL occur at the same general time, and at the end of the tribulation.

Also, Armageddon is part of the day of the Lord. And I have proven in other posts, the day of the Lord cannot be a part of the tribulation (nor the 70th week) at all (See Isa 2 regarding who ALONE will be exalted in that day). Even Jesus places that event after the tribulation (all the tribes of the earth mourn). These events happen in the same order throughout the bible. These cosmic signs are our means of understanding the order of events, and how to place them. Each set of 7's in Revelation is a recapitulating of the events of the tribulation, which occurs during the last 3-1/2 years of the 70th week. It may be that the trumpets and vials come toward the end, but we can place the great earthquake, the cosmic signs of the 6th seal and Mat 24, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh vial at the very end of the tribulation, that much is certain. In this way, we can know the time of his coming for them that are looking for him by watching the signs. The rest will be crying out for peace and safety, and looking to the anti-christ to get it. But those that are looking at the signs which the Lord and Paul, and John warned us about, will be the ones to inherit all things at his coming.

Hi super fun...Is this what all pre-tribbers really think?

Well, I hate to paint them all with the same brush, but as a general rule, the answer is "Yes".



I am sure there are some small variations on those particulars, but they are a very close knit group doctrinally speaking. They also tend to "circle the wagons" - right or wrong. I know, I was once a pre-tribber myself. And I was in a group that ousted me for pointing out the errors of the doctrine. They also tend to use rapture timing issues as a test of orthodoxy, which is really silly.

Miki,
I agree with super fun. It seems like you might think he is mis-characterizing pre-tribbers a little.
Am I understanding you right.
If so, I wonder what he said that you might disagree with as a description of the pre-trib view? I am sure they would not choose the language that super used, but the points seem accurate to me.
One might argue the part about "without the aid of the Holy Spirit," but if one believes as most of them do, that the Holy Spirit is the "restrainer" that is taken out of the way, and taken to heaven with the church, then to some degree those left behind would be at a disadvantage. Even if you qualify it as most do by saying that the Holy Spirit is not totally removed, but only as the indwelling of the individual. So many today are just barely hanging on, even with the indwelling of the HS, I can't imagine going through the great tribulation with out His indwelling.
That seems to me it would be a huge disadvantage.
Anyway just wondering more about what you thought.
3am