This is my discussion with one who believes the Lord will not come for the Church before He executes His hour of trial. My responses are at the >

Jesus will not return as most of the church today believes, instead the antichrist will appear and viciously attack the church.

>Wrong. The Lord will return as promised to keep the living believers at the time from His hour of trial. The "antichrist" will not fool any true believer who knows the truth recorded in the Scriptures. Even those who will become believers during the 70th week will not be fooled and this is precisely why they will be martyred because they will not give up their faith. You refute the Lord's return here for the Church and you refute the Lord's promise to keep living believers from His hour of trial. This is the position of the scoffer of the last days. You have been fooled by Satan.

Because the church actually believes that the bible teaches that Christ must come before the antichrist and the tribulation, they will be filled with dispair when Christ does not appear, it will appear to many to have been a pipe dream.

>Yes they do because the Bible teaches this very truth. This is precisely why Paul explains to the Thessalonians that they need not be troubled about missing the Lord's return for them before His hour of trial. The Day of the Lord's judgment had not begun (which will include Satan's unrestrained presence) and was not present as some were teaching. The believer who understands this truth will never be filled with dispair because the Lord will make good on His promise. You need to listen to Paul. You show me the Scriptures that support "your" pipe dream. You cannot.

It will appear to many that Jesus has betrayed them! During the tribulation it will appear that satan has won, and because of the pre-trib teaching this will verify it.

>Wrong. The Lord will never betray the true believer and even those who will choose to become believers after the Lord's "harpazo" will not be deceived by Satan during the 70th week. They will not give up their faith to the extent of being martyred and they will know that Satan will not win in the end. [Revelation 20:4]

The pre-trib rapture is a set up by Satan so that the church will be blown away when the antichrist and the tribulation occurs and there is no sign of Jesus in the sky.

>Wrong. Your view is the one set up by Satan so that when the Lord does execute His "harpazo" Satan can delude you into the tribulations and deceptions of the 70th week and then you had better be prepared to be martyred if you choose to seek the Lord in those days. Many professing Christians will not and they will die without hope as Satan will kill billions in his quest to rule the earth.

Remember when Jesus said that many would given up the faith and betray one another?

>Wrong. You are manipulating Matthew 24:10-13. This discourse is a focus upon national Israel during the 70th week, not the Church. Two thirds of national Israel will be killed because they will not turn to the Lord .... but a remnant part of the nation will become believers during the 70th week and they will be saved as mortals and will enter the Lord's millennial Kingdom on the earth.

The pre-trib rapture will set this up.

>Wrong. The Lord's "harpazo" will set nothing up, but will keep living believers from His hour of trial which will play out during the 70th week. The "set up" is the belief that the Lord is not going to execute His "harpazo" without warning before the tribulation events of His hour of trial begin. Those who believe this lie refute the Lord's promise given in Revelation 3:10 and they ignore the text-proof views in Revelation of the Church in heaven while the tribulation is in progress on the earth.

As it stands now most of the body of Christ will enter the tribulation totally unprepared and in a state of shock, feeling betrayed by Christ because he did not return.

>Show me the Scriptures that support your statement here. You cannot. Those who will be in a state of shock will be the professing Christians who rejected the promise of His "harpazo" to keep them from His hour of trial. Those who refute His promise will not be ready and the Lord will leave them on the earth and just as He states in Matthew 25:1-13 and Revelation 3:16.

The pre-trib rapture is not a test of orthodoxy.

You must be ready ..... the Lord has said so and there is a reason for it. Why? Are you ready? Or are you a tribulation seeker? [Revelation 3:16]

i don't know when the rapture will be

there are many scriptures which say:
Saints can lose their salvation.
Paul was afraid that he might become a CASTAWAY REPROBATE
1 Cor 9;27

so, at any time that i choose, i can turn from Christ to satan.........(in this life)..........i have free-will in THAT matter

no Saint is safe from APOSTACY, until he is WITH GOD IN HEAVEN............(generally speaking)


at any time, a persecution could break out........BEFORE the rapture, and i could be tortured and martyred..........so, i'm not safe from dis-comfort



Staying saved is fairly simple.
Noah was saved, as long as he stayed IN THE ARK
i'm saved, as long as i stay IN CHRIST

so, i hope to stay IN CHRIST