SEEKING RESEARCH ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE URIM AND THUMMIM AND THE SHEKINAH,
IN REFERENCE TO THE 3RD TEMPLE REBUILDING . . .




http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...mp;letter=U#217

The characteristic feature of the Shekinah was radiance; and Josephus, who believed that God was present at every sacrifice, even when offered by Gentiles, states that the oracles were revealed through rays of light:

Relation to the Shekinah.("Ant." iii. 8, § 9, Whiston's transl.).

"But as to those stones, which we told you before, the high priest bare on his shoulders . . . the one of them shined out when God was present at their sacrifices . . . bright rays darting out thence; and being seen even by those that were most remote; which splendor yet was not before natural to the stone. . . . Yet will I mention what is still more wonderful than this; for God declared beforehand, by those twelve stones which the high priest bare on his breast, and which were inserted into his breastplate, when they should be victorious in battle; for so great a splendor shone forth from them before the army began to march, that all the people were sensible of God's being present for their assistance. Whence it came to pass that those Greeks who had a veneration for our laws, because they could not possibly contradict this, called that breastplate the Oracle"

The Talmudic concept seems to have been identical with the view of Josephus, holding that the reply of the Urim and Thummim was conveyed by rays of light. Two scholars of the third century, however, who had lost the vividness of the earlier concept, gave the explanation that those stones of the breastplate which contained the answer of the oracle either stood out from the others or formed themselves into groups (Yoma 73b).

The division of the country was made according to the Urim and Thummim, since the high priest, "filled with the Holy Spirit," proclaimed the tribe to which each division should belong. After this, lots were drawn from two urns, one containing the name of the tribe and the other that of the territory, and these were found to harmonize with the high priest's announcement (B. B. 122a; Sanh. 16a; comp. Yer. Yoma 41b, below). To enlarge the Holy City or the Temple court the orders of the king, of a prophet, and of the Urim and Thummim were necessary (Sheb. 2, 3, 16a; Yer. Sheb. 33d, below). In Yer. Sanh. 19b the question is propounded why the Urim and Thummim are needed when a prophet is present.

Bibliography: Winer, B. R. ii. 644-645;
Hamburger, R. B. T. i. 1002-1004;
Herzog-Plitt, Real-Encyc. xvi. 226-233;
Hastings, Dict. Bible, iv. 840-841;
M. Duschak, Josephus Flavius und die Tradition, pp. 5-7, Vienna, 1864.W. B

Christ is the Urim & Thummim (Light and Perfection) who came in the flesh and showed you how to create the Third Temple. The Third and Final Temple made without Human hands. The Temple of the Body filled with the Urim & Thummim (Light and Perfection) from God in Heaven.



1 Corinthians 6
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.


2 Corinthians 6
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."
17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."

No other temple will be built that has anything to do with God the Father and Christ

John 2
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Acts 7
48 However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49 'Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?'

Thank you for the information.

I believe in the personal temple you have referenced.
And also:

http://templemount2008.blogspot.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim
[] History of Use
1 Samuel 28:6 states that God refused to answer Saul by dreams, by Urim, or by prophets. Saul was a Benjamite; his 'yes' was Thummim. A priest is a Levite; his 'yes' is Urim. Six tribes were on one stone, and six tribes were on the other.[citation needed] Exo 28:9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel: Exo 28:10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth. Exo 28:11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.


A passage of the Books of Samuel mentions three methods of divine communication - dreams, prophets, and the Urim and Thummim[33]; the first two of these are also mentioned copiously in Assyrian and Babylonian literature, and such literature also mentions Tablets of Destiny, which are similar in some ways to the Urim and Thummim[34]. The Tablets of Destiny had to rest on the breast of deities mediating between the other gods and mankind in order to function[35], while the Urim and Thummim had to rest within the breastplate of the priest mediating between Yahweh and mankind[36]. Marduk was said to have put his seal on the Tablets of Destiny[37], while the Israelite breastplate had a jewelled stone upon it for each of the Israelite tribes, which may derive from the same principle[38]. Like the Urim and Thummim, the Tablets of Destiny came into use when the fate of king and nation was concerned[39]. According to a minority of archaeologists, the Israelites emerged as a subculture from within Canaanite society, and not as an invading force from outside, and therefore it would be natural for them to have used similar religious practices to other Semitic nations[40], and scholars suspect that the concept of Urim and Thummim was originally derived from the Tablets of Destiny[41].

Weren't the Urim and Turmmin the stones on the breast plate of the ephod? There is an incident when David was on the run and borrowed it from the high priest to ask God a question. The two stones were of onyx on the shoulders with 6 tribes on one and 6 tribes on the other shoulder stone.

I always got the impression that it was the breastplate stones that lit up. They were 12 different stones:



Exd 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, [even] four rows of stones: [the first] row [shall be] a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: [this shall be] the first row.


Exd 28:18 And the second row [shall be] an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.


Exd 28:19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.


Exd 28:20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.


Exd 28:21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, [like] the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.


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1Sa 23:6 ¶ And it came to pass, when Abiathar the son of Ahimelech fled to David to Keilah, [that] he came down [with] an ephod in his hand.


1Sa 23:7 And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.


1Sa 23:8 And Saul called all the people together to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men.


1Sa 23:9 ¶ And David knew that Saul secretly practised mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod.


1Sa 23:10 Then said David, O LORD God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.


1Sa 23:11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the LORD said, He will come down.


1Sa 23:12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the LORD said, They will deliver [thee] up.


1Sa 23:13 Then David and his men, [which were] about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.


This event shows David using the Ephod but doesn't say how it works. So really don't know. I had always surmised it was all 12 stones but the 2 on the shoulders might make more sense regarding yes no answers.

It says they were both onyx.



This study has been useful to me because Jesus is quoted as saying that Abiathar gave David and his men shewbread. An orthodox jew claims this means Jesus doesn't know what He's talking about because it says in Scriptures that the high priest was Ahimelech at that time and Abiathar was not the high priest but one in waiting.

Of course the Lord knows everything, so I am now thinking Jesus was referring to this event above that was at a later date and although it does not say David got shewbread again, it seems likely that the event may have repeated itself because he and his men were probably hungry running around in the desert to get away from Saul.

The first event cited by Eliyahu is this one:

And what about the leading figure of the New Testament, Jesus, how reliable are his statements? Look at a statement by him from Mark 2:26. Here he says that David entered the Temple (Tabernacle) in the days of Abiathar the high priest and ate the showbreads. This event is recorded in I Samuel 21:1; "Then came David to Nob, to Achimelech the priest, …" During this incident Achimelech was high priest, and not his son Abiathar. A high priest functions until the day he dies, and then his son takes over. So only after the death of Achimelech, recorded in I Samuel 22:18, did his son Abiathar succeed him, as we can see in I Samuel 30:7; "And David said to Abiathar the priest, Achimelech's son, …"


Anyway. Hard to say about either one but ran into this and found it interesting.


The bottom line is, the use of the ephod is no longer needed since the veil has been pierced and we can go boldly to the throne and He will speak to us in a still quiet voice.

Pulled out something from my files . . .


Patmos:


Yes, I agree . . . the direct throne room experience. Did you know that the octave 8
musical note, is the Paradise and 3rd Heaven Hz(frequency) ?

Although the gulf between Paradise (Abraham/Lazarus) and Rich Man (Hell) is
sealed.

The veil is open between Paul's experience from earth unto Paradise & 3rd Heaven realms.

Thank you, for sharing !



This may answer a question . . .


[EXCERPT, FROM LINK BELOW]
The Talmudic concept seems to have been identical with the view of
Josephus, holding that the reply of the Urim and Thummim was conveyed
by rays of light. Two scholars of the third century, however, who had
lost the vividness of the earlier concept, gave the explanation that
those stones of the breastplate which contained the answer of the
oracle either stood out from the others or formed themselves into
groups (Yoma 73b).




http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...88&letter=S
(i.e., the Shekinah).

Mode of Consultation.

The oracle was consulted in the following manner: The high priest
donned his eight garments, and the person for whom he sought an
answer stood facing him, while he himself turned toward God (i.e.,
the Shekinah). It was necessary that the question should be brief and
that it should be pronounced, but not aloud; while the answer was a
repetition of the query, either in the affirmative or in the
negative. Only one question might be asked at a time; if more than
one were put, the first alone received a reply. The answer was given
by the letters of the names of the tribes which were engraved upon
the high priest's breastplate (Yoma 73a, b; Yer. Yoma 44c; Sifre,
Num. 141). If the question was not distinctly worded, the reply might
be misunderstood, as in Judges xx. 18 et seq. (Sheb. 35b; Yoma 73b).
A decision by the oracle might be demanded only by the king, or by
the chief of the highest court, or by a prominent man within the
community, such as a general of the army, and it might be sought only
for the common weal (Yoma 7, end, 73a: "one anointed for war"; Targ.
pseudo-Jonathan to Ex. xxviii. 30: "in case of need"). According to
Targ. pseudo-Jonathan to Ex. xxviii., the breastplate was used to
proclaim victory in battle. It was necessary that the high priest who
questioned the oracle should be a man upon whom the Shekinah rested
(Yoma 73b).

The characteristic feature of the Shekinah was radiance; and
Josephus, who believed that God was present at every sacrifice, even
when offered by Gentiles, states that the oracles were revealed
through rays of light:

Relation to the Shekinah.("Ant." iii. 8, § 9, Whiston's transl.).

"But as to those stones, which we told you before, the high priest
bare on his shoulders . . . the one of them shined out when God was
present at their sacrifices . . . bright rays darting out thence; and
being seen even by those that were most remote; which splendor yet
was not before natural to the stone. . . . Yet will I mention what is
still more wonderful than this; for God declared beforehand, by those
twelve stones which the high priest bare on his breast, and which
were inserted into his breastplate, when they should be victorious in
battle; for so great a splendor shone forth from them before the army
began to march, that all the people were sensible of God's being
present for their assistance. Whence it came to pass that those
Greeks who had a veneration for our laws, because they could not
possibly contradict this, called that breastplate the Oracle"

The Talmudic concept seems to have been identical with the view of
Josephus, holding that the reply of the Urim and Thummim was conveyed
by rays of light. Two scholars of the third century, however, who had
lost the vividness of the earlier concept, gave the explanation that
those stones of the breastplate which contained the answer of the
oracle either stood out from the others or formed themselves into
groups (Yoma 73b).

The division of the country was made according to the Urim and
Thummim, since the high priest, "filled with the Holy Spirit,"
proclaimed the tribe to which each division should belong. After
this, lots were drawn from two urns, one containing the name of the
tribe and the other that of the territory, and these were found to
harmonize with the high priest's announcement (B. B. 122a; Sanh. 16a;
comp. Yer. Yoma 41b, below). To enlarge the Holy City or the Temple
court the orders of the king, of a prophet, and of the Urim and
Thummim were necessary (Sheb. 2, 3, 16a; Yer. Sheb. 33d, below). In
Yer. Sanh. 19b the question is propounded why the Urim and Thummim
are needed when a prophet is present.

Very interesting. Thanks Crown..