In another thread a poster accused the Catholic church of excommunicating everyone who did not agree with them. The case of Galileo was cited as evidence of this claim. I would like to refute this claim and show that the church excommunicates those who rebelliously continue to teach false doctrines to the church members despite having been told to cease. They are excommunicated not because of the false doctrine but by their rebellious insistance on demanding to teach others in opposition to the authorities of the church.

Evidence of this is that Copernicus who was the first European to advance the notion of a heliocentric solar system did so 75 years before Galileo came on the scene. There were nine popes between Copernicus and Galileo and not one was alarmed by Copernicus ideas. Even Galileo when he came on the scene was a popular figure and people flocked to hear his ideas. Many ridiculed him but this could hardly be construed as persecution, except perhaps by C'Jon.

So what went wrong. Why did Galileo fall foul of the church. The problem was that the church accepted his system as a useful model to understand the motions of the planets but Galileo started to insist that his hypothesis was not simply a model of the solar system but was ACTUALLY what happened in reality. At that time it is regularly agreed that Galileo lacked scientific proof that his hypothesis was true. Nevertheless despite the churches teaching that the scriptures taught that the sun goes about the earth Galileo continued to insist upon the truth of his model even though he had no evidence. As a result Galileo was imprisoned on the claim of heresy. And not in a prison with bars like you might assume, but rather in the luxury apartment of one of the church officials. A grand total of 22 days was spent in this "confinement". His other "excruciating punishment" was that he was required to recite penitential psalms for three years.

A whole host of urban myths on the horrific treatment of Galileo have sprung up, all of them untrue. Quite frankly I am at a loss why JP II came out with the apology for Galileo. There is a lot of debate about this apology with claims that JP II overly influenced the investigating committee and that he had a preconceived message that he wanted to issue. The apology seems to be like an overture of reconciliation between science and faith. This capitulation in my view has severely weakened the faith and the respect of the Bible. I feel that it is utterly disgraceful that the pope has compromised on evolution and I contend that his apology toward Galileo should be considered in the same light. I believe that future papacies will correct these errors of JP II with a dogmatic statement against evolution and the claims of science which contradict the Bible.

In fact what people do not realise is that the heliocentric model is just as much a hypothesis today as it was in Galileo's day. Einsteins theory of relativity shows that any object in the universe can be marked as the centre of the universe and that all objects have a motion relative to that object. Einsteins teaching is also that the only way we can prove what the absolute motion of an object is, is if we are outside the moving frame of reference, in other words completely outside the solar system. The only being who is outside the solar system is God.

Therefore the evidence that the sun is the centre of the solar system relies entirely upon the theory that the sun is the motive power of the solar system. ie. that it is the gigantic mass of the sun that causes all the planets to revolve around it. Not only is this a completely unproven theory, it is also virtually impossible to imagine how such a thing could occur. I defy anybody to understand how a massive gravitational pull can cause objects to revolve around it. I know that there are a lot of people who pretend that they understand it, but to me it is utterly ludicrous and impossible. Its not for want of trying either. I have spent at least a hundred hours trying to understand it. One thing is without dispute and that is, despite the fact that it is universally accepted, gravity as a cause for the orbit of planetary bodies is NOT scientifically proven. There is a difference.

As far as the relative motion between the earth, sun, moon and planets, the geocentric model of Tycho Brahe is identical to that of the heliocentric model of Keplar. In fact Keplar used Tycho Brahe's measurements of the solar system to prove his heliocentric model. Galileo really didn't come up with the heliocentric model at all, he basically just repackaged the ideas of men before him such as Copernicus and Keplar. Today students of astronomy are never taught about Tycho Brahes geocentric model and are always shown Ptolemys geocentric model which has obvious defects. Tycho Brahes geocentric model however perfectly reconciles with the motion of the planets. Students of astronomy are never taught this either. Why not? If science is open and honest. In fact Tycho Brahe was a giant in the field of astronomy. It is doubtful whether a greater astronomer ever lived. Keplar was his apprentice and basically just ripped off most of his work and yet he gets all the credit and accolades.

I don't know. But the Lord excommunicated the church because they disagree with Him and have lied and changed the everlasting covenant.


1 Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish.
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.
7 The new wine fails, the vine languishes, All the merry-hearted sigh.
8 The mirth of the tambourine ceases, The noise of the jubilant ends, The joy of the harp ceases.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; Strong drink is bitter to those who drink it.
10 The city of confusion is broken down; Every house is shut up, so that none may go in.
11 There is a cry for wine in the streets, All joy is darkened, The mirth of the land is gone.
12 In the city desolation is left, And the gate is stricken with destruction.


30 "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: 'The Lord will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth-- For the Lord has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the Lord."
32 Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Behold, disaster shall go forth From nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the farthest parts of the earth.
33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.
34 "Wail, shepherds, and cry! Roll about in the ashes, You leaders of the flock! For the days of your slaughter and your dispersions are fulfilled; You shall fall like a precious vessel.
35 And the shepherds will have no way to flee, Nor the leaders of the flock to escape.
36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, And a wailing of the leaders to the flock will be heard. For the Lord has plundered their pasture,
37 And the peaceful dwellings are cut down Because of the fierce anger of the Lord.
38 He has left His lair like the lion; For their land is desolate Because of the fierceness of the Oppressor, And because of His fierce anger."

36 "For the Lord will judge His people And have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their power is gone, And they have none shut up or left.
37 He will say: 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?
38 Who ate the fat of their sacrifices, And drank the wine of their drink offering? Let them rise and help you, And be your refuge.
39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

Greetings:

I am hesistant to even think about responsing but this statement just blows me away, once again:

A whole host of urban myths on the horrific treatment of Galileo have sprung up, all of them untrue. Quite frankly I am at a loss why JP II came out with the apology for Galileo. There is a lot of debate about this apology with claims that JP II overly influenced the investigating committee and that he had a preconceived message that he wanted to issue. The apology seems to be like an overture of reconciliation between science and faith. This capitulation in my view has severely weakened the faith and the respect of the Bible. I feel that it is utterly disgraceful that the pope has compromised on evolution and I contend that his apology toward Galileo should be considered in the same light. I believe that future papacies will correct these errors of JP II with a dogmatic statement against evolution and the claims of science which contradict the Bible.

Excubitor, are you not the same gentleman that have been telling people all over the forum to go back to their churches and listen to their bishops/pastors and be obedient unto them, regardless of their misgivings? And yet, here you are, disagreeing with JP 11. Are you not being a tad hyprocritical?

On the point of evolution, I agree that it is science's misguided attempt to do away with the solid ground of Creationism. However, science, as you quite know, is an observational method that has been quite useful to humanity. As for your point about Galileo's beef with the Catholic church, it's old news and quite moot to me now. He has made significant contributions to society as a whole and not really someone that I care to go to for spiritual growth anyway.

Sincerely yours,

Wendy

Truly you cannot win, If you agree with everything the Pope and the church says then you unthinking and blindly following a blind leader. But then if you don't agree with the Pope and the church on some point then you are a hypocrite. Of course I do not agree with everything which every Pope says. As many of you have pointed out, Popes and Councils disagree with one another at various times. I came out in support of a Pope I think it was Pope Urban who censured Galileo and did not support JP II on this one point. Nowhere does the church forbid debate and many heated exchanges occur in Catholic circles on this issue of Evolution and also many of the innovations of Vatican II. Does that make all those people rebellious? No of course not. Its one thing to appeal to the council about something which you feel is wrong about church teaching, it is altogether another thing when you are causing division and continue to push your barrow against the directive of the church.

Catholics are expected to believe and confess the dogmas of the church. A dogmatic belief in a heliocentric solar system is not required, nor is a dogmatic belief in either evolution or young earth creation required to be a member of the church. Debate is allowed, but disobedience is not. This is the whole thrust of my thread, so if you want to make me the example thats fine by me. I happily debate with the church on various issues, but in the end I respect that the decision is the Popes and if he says, or the bishop or priest says, "put a sock in it", then I will go quiet for the sake of obedience and unity, no matter how much it rankles me. Galileo was allowed to debate the church, but when he started to dabble in the scriptures to try to prove that the sun was the centre of the solar system, the church said "back off". He refused and so he was censured.

Indeed Wendy,

I take it that if the paramedics pull you out of your car after a collision you will be quite willing to put your faith in the scientific method. Or perhaps I am wrong, and you would rather pray and hope that Jesus will fix your ruptured spleen.
But when science doesn't match Jewish lore you reject it.
I say that this is dishonest (and also mind numbingly ignorant ).
You either accept the scientific method or you do not.

It is amazing to me that presumably well educated people in 2007 will not accept one of the most tested and reliable theories.
And I can not wait to debate evolution with you.

Please, please, please reply !

I can not tell you how much I look forward to this.

Greetings all:

(sighing)

Visarion:

I'm not much of a debater, so I'm sorry to disappoint you in that light. There are plenty of people on this forum that are far more suited in that area than I am.

However, I do detect an angry bias toward what you call "jewish lore". What exactly do you mean by that and why the anger?

Sincerely yours,

Wendy

Hi Wendy,

Fair enough.
It is no fun debating with folks who don't like to get into a bit of an on-line tussle.
I was really hoping to entice any of you into a debate on evolution.
There ! The Gauntlet has been properly thrown down.

By Jewish lore I meant the Bible.
As for the anger part, well, I have an abrasive personality and I thoroughly dislike bad ideas, especially if said ideas motivate people to set me on fire, fly planes into buildings or teach nonsense to our kids in school.

Cheers.

Man I cannot tell you how much you bless me by this "CJon" for indeed I am one with my brother in Christ. We speak with one voice, because we both believe the Word is the only authority. We have reached the point where we are in agreement and it is such a blessing. Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Praise God, this is indeed possible, but only when we leave our opinions out and submit to the Word. That is the only place where agreement is possible.

BroJon, I praise God for you brother and I truly love you in the Lord. You are my brother in the truest sense of the Word and word
in Christ
C

Even thieves have a brotherhood of sorts even though they are vagabonds from regular society.
Even the heathen love their friends even though they hate and misrepresent their enemies.

True Christian brotherhood may only be found IN the communion of the church, the sharing of the Eucharist and in the partaking together of the divine nature. As Christians we work together through the week to solve all of our differences and divisions, our disputations with doctrine, our angst at the wrongs of church officials and other brothers. This shared work of unification finds its fulfillment at the taking of the Eucharist where we set aside all of those differences and become one together in perfect unity and brotherhood.

Abandoning the church to form rebellious bands which hurl abuse at the mother church is not brotherhood. These men thrust out their chests at the church, their tongues wave and their teeth glisten as they retort "We shall not reconcile" "We shall not be united with you" "We shall not have fellowship or communion with you" "We hate your ways and love our ways" These outlaws spurn the sacrament and set up communions and sacraments of their own in opposition to the blessed sacrament of the church. They bring in strange fire into the temple of God. Surely this is the essence of fornication and whoredom. Shall we be brothers in harlotry? Or brothers in the Christian church.

I noticed that in another Christian forum the moderators have clamped down on this "Come out of her my people" line of addressing the church. There were just too many morons who know nothing of scripture who just label everyone with a view they disagree with as a daughter of the harlot Babylonian system. Of particular target were those Christians who uphold the doctrines and teachings of the church and belong to mainline denominations. Such slow witted and brutish people who parrot this "Come out of her my people" line need to be censured and held back as they sow discord amongst brothers. They are not actively trying to build unity in the church, they are trying to break up fellowships and get people out of their brotherhoods into bible clubs that believe who knows what.

Let us seek brotherhood not just with our mates on the Internet, but with the dear folk in our local church, and with our religious leaders in the church, and with the general assembly of the saints throughout the generations, and with the doctors of the church who have given us our Christian doctrine, and with the early church fathers who struggled in the catacombs suffering persecution and martyrdom for the faith. This is true brotherhood. Anything which C'Jon have to offer is a hollow shell in comparison.