I am at a lost as to why you waste your breath trying to convince prebies that they are wrong. First of all, you’re not going to do it because this is their escape mechanism. And secondly they will find out once the Tribulation period begins.

There are other more important issues to discuss. As a postie you already know that we are slated to see the GT. With this in mind we are given time to prepare. God has provided a way to physically escape the GT but there is a certain amount of preparation, and it seems that most of you are more interested in arguing whether there is a pre-trib rapture or not instead of preparing.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

What have you done or are you doing to prepare ..... and how much time do you think you have? What doyou recommend others do to prepare .... what preparations can be made?

The reason is that I don't want others who are undecided to be swept along by false teaching. I hope that these innocent ones will read the words of truth and reject the pretrib argument. How do you suggest that we prepare for the Great Tribulation if we are not convinced that we need to go through it.
I take your point though. The work of preparing is an urgent task which must not be delayed. Perhaps you could give us some ideas on how we should prepare for the GT.

Just what I asked ....tell us. And since He will intervene at a time you cannot know ..... how do you know you have any time at all? How much time do you have from today and what scriptures do you use to measure it?

You are right, most will not be convinced.
But there are many others on this forum who are reading but not writing.
They see the foolishness offered by those trying to defend an untenable position.
And they are especially turned off by the name calling and personal attacks of those defending it.
Not that we are guiltless, sometimes the flesh raises it's ugly head and gets the best of us and we retalliate. But we just need to ask God to let us stay as Christlike as we can.

They learn to see through the "Left Behind" novel series and movies to discover the real Jesus.
Several have written words of appreciation, on the forum and privately.
So keep the chin up. It still does good to proclaim the truth about Jesus.
3am

"They see the foolishness offered by those trying to defend an untenable position."

Do you not do the same? And what are you doing to prepare since you must also know how much time you have?

Stephen,

You stated: Just what I asked ....tell us. And since He will intervene at a time you cannot know ..... how do you know you have any time at all? How much time do you have from today and what scriptures do you use to measure it?

My response:Presently we do not know the day or the hour of Christ’s return. However, the minute the Tribulation period begins (for those who watch) we will know that His return will take place exactly Seven years later. We will also know (for those who watch) that 3 ½ years after the start of the Tribulation period the persecution of the GT will begin. So God has given us this elaborate time table so that (those who watch) will know when the GT will start and if they are prepared they will be able to escape its grasp.

Excubitor,

You stated: I take your point though. The work of preparing is an urgent task which must not be delayed. Perhaps you could give us some ideas on how we should prepare for the GT.

My response: http://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

But the Lord has said; at a time you think not the Son of Man will come ..... you do not [cannot] know when your Lord will come ..... so how can you possibly know the time? You could know if you measure the bench marks of the tribulation period ..... if you are there ..... to the ending time of the period, but He said you cannot know the time. The "Thief" has not told you when He will come. How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction? Are you going to wait until you see the bench marks of the tribulation before you begin your preparation? And what will you do?

well i talk about that stuff because i was also once pretrib, not because i needed an escape mechanism( although that is what it is) but because i was not well learned at prophesy and the spiritual understandings of the bible along with the purposes for tribulation. i know that many will refuse to see the truth, and others will find out when trib begins, but there are some, few and far between that love the truth and just dont know better yet

You have not really addressed anything at all related to the subject under discussion except what you use to be. So since you have an interest in this I will ask you the same questions given to GS. Please respond.

Stephen,

You stated: The "Thief" has not told you when He will come.

My response: 2 Peter 3:10 (King James Version) 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This verse states that “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night” when the heavens and earth will be burned up. When, in your opinion, will this prophecy be fulfilled, at the beginning of the tribulation period or at the end at Christ’s advent?

You stated: How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction?

My response: Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

According to Revelation 3:3 if you do not watch you will not know the time. This is a double negative. In other words, If you do watch, then you will know the time.

Presently we do not know the day or hour, however, If you believe Daniel’s prophecy concerning the 70 weeks is accurate, then there remains seven years of prophecy which end with the advent of Christ.

You stated: Are you going to wait until you see the bench marks of the tribulation before you begin your preparation?

My response: My preparations have past begun. And an important part of the preparation is being found worthy.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You stated: And what will you do?

My response: http://www.geocities.com/guysmith123/144000

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

"This verse states that “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night” when the heavens and earth will be burned up. When, in your opinion, will this prophecy be fulfilled, at the beginning of the tribulation period or at the end at Christ’s advent?'

Peter's view includes a considerable amount of time. He just gives the beginning intervention of the "Thief" [the Lord] ........ and the conflageration of the earth and universe at the end of the Lord's millennial reign ..... not the end of the tribulation period. This present earth and heavens will still exist for another 1,000 years after the tribulation period. He says "in which" ...... meaning "will conclude" with. Many events will take place during this period of the day of the Lord ...... His hour of trial and His millennial rule ..... then the conflageration will take place and eternity will begin ...... all the "day of the Lord".

There are two times [dates] described differently. One you cannot know and one that you can. The first will be the beginning of the Lord's wrath and judgments ..... no one knows this date and can or will know it. The one you could know if involved in His judgment period against an unbelieving world is the second and at the end of the tribulation. These dates will be 7 years apart.

You say that your preparation will be something to make yourself "worthy". Just what would these things be. How do you make yourself worthy? Are you worthy enough to be saved now ..... or does it take more action on your part? Just what are these things that you need to do to be found worthy ..... to be saved for eternity? What can you do? Are you saved now? What if you die before the time ..... do you need to be found worthy before your death? Are you? Don't you think it would be important to prepare now rather than delay until you see the events of the tribulation unfolding?

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Clearly, "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" would not be a pretribulational eschatology. There are NO records of the church teaching that prior to the 1700's.

It is one thing to agree to disagree on the topic, it is another to have false statements made in lue of scriptural responses. The more scripture we quote that clearly shows (at the very least) that we will see signs prior to the rapture (i.e. the AOD etc.) the more likely it is that others will see it, investigate themselves, and find the truth.

This is not a salvation issue (even though pre-tribbers like to make it that), but it is an issue that effects the way all of prophecy is viewed, and that makes it rather important to understand. TBH I am not so concerned about those who insist on arguing, but I am concerned for them that lurk here, who are looking for a simple statement of truth regarding these issues.

I believe that the post trib view (while not always worked out completely) is the most scripturally correct view, as evidenced by the incredible amount of scripture which confirms it.

Scripture interprets scripture. Therefore the fact that the rapture occurs (at the very least) after the AOD is very clearly stated throughout the NT, means we have to earnestly contend for what many in the early Church (such as Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus) called "the teaching". They taught the same thing, and passionatly believed it was important to understand.

Stephen,

I guess that you do not see the Lord will "come as a thief in the night" on "the Day of the Lord" as Peter states?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

So you believe Jesus was contradicting himself?

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Do you see the difference??

He says you will see the signs of His coming, but you still wont know the exact hour. If you study closely you will find that the tribulation may be cut short. So in such an hour as ye think not, he will come. But Jesus did say that we would see the AOD....do you deny this??

Paul said the exact same thing and spoke of the church seeing the exact same signs.

In fact he explains to whom the rapture will come "as a thief":

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Jesus taught him this:
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now look at how Paul agrees:
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

It would be uncanny for Paul to say such things apart from knowing about Jesus Olivette Discourse.

It is WAY to clear to ignore.

"So you believe Jesus was contradicting himself?'

The Lord does not contradict Himself. What is the answer to the question? The time you cannot know will not be preceded by any tribulation events, signs or anything else ..... otherwise you would know. This date will be the beginning of the period ...... not the end of it.

Superfundy,

There is a flood coming. Not a flood of water, but a flood of persecution. Now Noah's could have spent more time trying to convince people that the flood was coming and less time building the ark, but he didn't. The ark spoke volumes about his belief. We can spend more time trying to convince people that the flood is coming and less time preparing. I believe the preparation speeks volumes.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Have you started your ark yet? How do you know when the flood is coming? Give me a date.

Apparently Jesus and you have a disagreement. You should take it up with him.

Because your argument is not with me, he said both things, so you need to figure out what he meant. I showed you already where to look for the answer. You just don't want to see it, but it is there nevertheless.

No disagreement for sure .... just correct understanding.

You do have a point. I don't disagree, but I like to give people as much time as Jesus wants me to, and he hasn't released from this as yet. I have been released from another pre-trib board (and no, I was not banned). I left when I realized that all who were going to accept my words, had done so up to that point. I may be called back, but for now my work is here.

Believe me, I have already been asking to leave here, but God keeps bringing me back for some reason.

No one knows how much time they have. We could die any time. Jesus could come a lot sooner than we think.

All you can do to prepare is stay close to Jesus.
Study His Word.
Commune with Him.
Share your faith

And be nice to each other. Even when they are pre-tribers or post-tribers

3am

Apparently not. I don't see how you reconcile the verses I quoted and maintain the opinion you have without simply ignoring the issue.

But as I say, that is between you, and your Lord.

Huh?
Does that verse become null and void after the rapure and during the tribulation.
You are the one who always applies the coming of the 'Son of Man" to the Glorious appearing after a so called rapture. In the verse you just cited, Jesus said we cannot know when the son of Man will come.
So why cant they just count 7 years, as you say and then they can know.
But Jesus said they cant know. something is not squaring up here.

3am

Not sure why you are answering a question put to one who follows the manchild cult about preparing for the tribulation. Study the cult and you may see why I am asking the question.

The time [date] you cannot know and the one you can know are obviously not the same date. They are two different dates and are separated by 7 years. The cult members and the post tribulationalists that I am discussing this issue with think that both dates are the same ..... and at the end of the tribulation period. They have a contradiction that they must deal with here from their point of view. The scriptures are not in contradiction at all.

Superfundy,

You stated:Believe me, I have already been asking to leave here, but God keeps bringing me back for some reason.

My response: I would like to encourage you to stay. I like this forum because there are some posties. Being in a prebie forum has been, well let's say dis-heartening.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Let me try again.
You wrote:
The verse which says no one knows the time is referring to the coming of the Son of Man.
You always apply the coming of the 'Son of Man" to the Glorious appearing after a 7 year tribulation.
In the verse you just cited, Jesus said no man knows when the son of Man will come.
If the tribulation lasts 7 years after the rapture, why cant they just count 7 years, as you say and then they can know when the Son of Man will come.
But Jesus said no one can know when the Son of Man will come.
something is not squaring up here.

3am

Already addressed this issue on another post. You were there.

Haha! Yup, you see it. That's all I need to know.

This is an appalling use of scripture.
Christ DID NOT say you cannot know the day or the hour. He said you DO NOT know the day or the hour. Let's read it.

Matt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Notice that this was in response to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins who were sleeping. Basically Jesus is saying to sleeping Christians. You don't know what is going on so wake up and watch. So notice what is the problem. You dont know the day or the hour. Solution: Watch.

Now what is the point of watching if there is nothing to watch. No signs, no seasons, no indicators. That would be futile. Christ already rebuked the people because they could not read the signs

Matt 16:When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.

So whats he saying here. He is saying, you've already been given so many signs of my coming and yet you still can't see my coming and here you are asking for even more signs. Hypocrites, you won't get any more signs except for the sign of Jonah.

So we are hyprocrites like the Pharisees if we say that there is no sign of his coming when Jesus gave lots of signs. In fact this is the very hypocrisy which Christ warning us to avoid, the leaven of the Pharisees described in the very next verse as the leaven of the pharisees.

Here's a few of the signs Jesus gives us that I can think of off the top of my head.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The four horsemen of the apocalypse ride with a serious escalation or war, disease, famine and false religion. These are the first four seals, then the 5th seal which is the Great Tribulation heralded by the abom desolation, the revealing of the antichrist with his name numbered at 666, the trumpet plagues. There are a great many signs. That's just scratching the surface. There is all the intrigue relating to how the antichrist comes to power outlined in Daniel. You could write a book on all the signs. It only comes as a thief in the night to a darkened world or a sleeping Christian. A watching Christian has no excuse if he is caught out napping.

So getting back to the original scripture in Matt 25:13. Lets imagine the following instruction. You do not know the way to my house therefore get a map. You would understand that the intention was that you learn and examine so that you do know the way to my house. If I fail to buy a map then I will not get to the destination. In the same way, Jesus gave us this command to watch so that in studying the signs of the times we would come to know the day and the hour. There are some very exact days given in Daniel which we can be confident will take on exact meaning in the last days. Now if we watch and follow the signs and we still don't know the day and the hour, then the Lord's instruction is in vain.

Pretribbers misconstrue this command and teach that we must all be on tenterhooks constantly, never sure when Damoclese sword will fall. This is a false teaching which even Paul warned against.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [1] 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Therefore it is clear that the coming of the Lord IS NOT IMMINENT. Certain events MUST OCCUR FIRST. What are they?
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So before Christ can return there must be
1. A great falling away
2. The antichrist must be revealed to the world
3. The antichrist must set himself up as God
4. The antichrist must be worshipped.

So these things also become signs to warn us of the impending return of Christ.

As in the Days of Noah so shall it be in the Coming of the Son of Man.


Did Noah know when the wrath of God was coming? Did Noah know before hand when the ark would lift off?

Yes, he did. And so will those who are watching.

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground.

God told Noah 7 days BEFORE the wrath of God hit. He was NOT taken unawares as certain people are trying to say. We won't know UNTIL the 7 years begins. We will be able to count days as in Daniel at that point.


I agree that we can't help certain people. They are in deception due to a lack of love for the truth. The only real preparation we can make is the same as Joseph in the 7 years of plenty. He stored up the "grain" which is a type of the Word of God. If you store up physical provision only, you run the risk of relying on that more than walking by faith which is the whole point of going in to the wilderness. The Israelites took gold and silver with them into the desert but they made an IDOL out of it......and still had to simply rely on the provision of God. Manna out of the sky and water out of the Rock. This is Christ.

Well, Jesus did tell us to watch because we do not know the day or the hour. In other words, be on guard to be found doing the will of God. But your right, we will know the season to be looking just as we know when summer is near. What is frightening is that there will be a strong delusion....I am concerned for many who are not aware of the truth.

this is all not that complicated.right this moment we do not know the day or hour but we will see all the signs leading to it if we walk in the light and that day does NOT come as a thief to those who are of the light. we are told not to let that day overtake us like a thief.

and we prepare now by learning now how to seperate from the world in all things and trust in God for all things. in other words we learn how to walk by faith in everything, every situation, for every need and truly rest in christ now instead of waiting until we are forced into tribulation ( wilderness) and having to learn it then. If we walk in faith now in all the promises and walk holy we will be ready for that time when so many other christians especically the " miracles dont happen anymore" and the " pre trib" believers will need help and an example of what to do in this time they are not prepared for

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

Dan 12:10 and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand.

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

There it is.

Wow guysmith, this is good stuff.
I agree 100%.
Every one should prepare.
But that does not include storing anything up for the end. It does not include digging a hole or a bomb shelter and hiding in it.
This requires diligent prayer and asking the Lord daily for His Spirit.
If none of that works then cut off your hair and cast it from you, put on sackcloth and go into the wilderness for forty days fasting and drinking nothing and crying to the lord for His Spirit. Show Him that you are willing to give up the beast permanently for Him.
Then when His witnesses come and strike the beasts of the earth down. You will have been living by faith and will not be harmed.

Right, but if there is indeed a strong delusion, where those who loved not the truth, are decieved, then our example will be useless to them that fall under it.

I get your point though.

I agree with you in spirit. But isn't it interesting that such actions (as storing up for the end, of digging a bomb shelter) are even now being characterized as "radical" and "over-reactionary"??

Have you ever considered that there might be a reason why?

Just a thought to consider.

Just a note: Post trib must remember that pretrib cannot see the "day of the Lord" as separate from the Tribulation. They HAVE to mix this up, in order for them to hold on to what they believe.

They do NOT read scripture as it is, but read into it , that, which only seems to support their theory.

.................

Asking about being and getting ready:
Joseph is the type and shadow, for getting ready: He stored up grain (Word). So he could feed the masses.
We are only required to "stock up" on the Word. Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly;

We are not going to get away from the Gospel message of death to self.It IS the message.
Those who deny and ignore this, are not following Jesus, so everything else is a useless effort and a waist of time.

Luk 14:26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luk 14:27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luk 14:33 So therefore whosoever he be of you that renounceth not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

SO its easy:

In preparation : How much Word is stored up in you?
How are you doing in the following of the "death to self" scriptures above?
Are you dead, so that Christ is now living in you?

C

LOL, I only read yours now BroJon, I was still reading the thread form the start and answering as I go along I see that you and I agree.

in Christ
C

Maybe a new thread on "Tribulation Preparation" would be a good thing. Seriously, there are many threads here that prove the Pre-Trib" to be at best "escapism" and pitiful scriptural exegesis...and at worse an attempt of Satan to deceive the Body of Christ by teaching a fable that disarms them as they enter the tribulation.

Those who hold to it in the face of so many witnesses and scriptures to the contrary are blind and more than likely will remain in that condition out of pride.

Our time may very well be best served by ignoring further futile wrangling about the timing and simply get on with "storing the grain". if you believe in Pre-trib "I'll fly away" fables, fine. Believe away. I'm not looking for an escape...I'm looking to endure by the grace of God. I'm looking to be fruitful...I'm looking to help those around me.....I'm looking for the fourth man in the fire.

Amen, Brother, and believe me He will be there !
Praise God
C

Guy...How can we know the difference between tribulation, chastisement and the great tribulation?

And the Sermon on the MOUNT...oh how precious HIS WORD is to us all.

Hi Miki,

You stated: Guy...How can we know the difference between tribulation, chastisement and the great tribulation?

My response: Tribulation and chastisement is something that God allows to happen to the ones God loves and wants to grow. It is a refining process.

Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The Great tribulation is a period of prophetic time in which refining will be taking place.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

REPLY: Mt 24:21,22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Note: It is the days of the great tribulation that is shortened, and not the seven years.

Mt 24:29,30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The sixth seal has just been opened and the worlds greatest earthquake up to that time has just occurred, and at that time the cosmic disturbance will occur, and the church will be caught up to be with Christ in the air. The buzzards will gather to eat the bodies that are left behind by the raptured saints.

Immediately after the rapture the 144,000 thousand will be sealed to protect them from the wrath of God that is about to begin. There will be a short silence and then the wrath of God will begin with the blowing of the first trumpet. When the seventieth trumpet sounds Christ will come out of heaven on a white horse.
No one knows when the time when the sixth seal will be opened but when the earthquake shakes the earth the Christians will know that the rapture is imminent and will be watching for the lights to go out in heaven.

What I have written is backed up be every end time prophecy passage in the bible. The rapture is post trib but not at the end of the seven years.

The trumpet that is blown at the rapture is God’s trumpet and it is sounded as Christ descends in the clouds. This will be the last trumpet call to gather to Christ, and not a war trumpet sounded by an angel standing before the throne of God.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In the context of the 70th week tribulation and great tribulation are one and the same (i.e. the last 3-1/2 years of the 70th week, marked by the abomination of desolation at it's beginning).

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

So the tribulation is marked by signs such as the abomination of desolation. And chastisement is what ever believer must endure. Once again, the scriptures ids our guide to telling the difference.

the scriptures may be YOUR guide, super. But not for those who follow men....like the bible says, "old women's fables"...you can show them the scriptures but THEY believe in a pre-trib rapture NO matter what you show them. Stiff necked and stubborn in heart........

Attempting to dispell the rapture doctrine is never a "waste of breath." Others hear and also God tells us that those that are most dogmatic may have a change of heart.


Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.

13.And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14.Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15.For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.


When the Holy Spirit speaks through the elect, minds and hearts will be changed. The seeds that are planted now will germinate. Those that are mistakenly following anti-christ, believing he is our Saviour, will have their eyes opened.


It is my firm belief that rapture is the biggest lie of end times. It will lead more of God's people away than any other lie. Something causes the great apostasy. Something makes Christians that have loved God all their lives to suddenly follow Satan. What could do that? Nothing knowingly....it has to be done with deceit. They won't know they are following the fake. To me, rapture belief fits that bill.


So....teaching against it isn't a waste of time. I believe He requires us to warn everyone we can:


Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

7.So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at My mouth, and warn them from Me.


Also, please consider when you say, "they'll find out when the tribulation begins," that the tribulation of Satan is not a bloody, horrid, frightening time. It is a tribulation of lies and deceit....such as the world has never seen. He comes pretending to be Christ and must act that part.


I do believe that we should prepare for that time. The best way, as has already been mentioned, is to know the Word of God.....have the gospel armor on. Being out of debt, some food laid aside, etc. is also a good idea. We cannot buy or sell when Satan is here.


We stand on the Rock and we will be protected.


.........Whirlwind

Patience brother. It is only our job to show, not to convince.

Amen?