God's Purpose for Israel
by 3am

I believe that the heart of all misunderstanding concering Israel can be found in the understanding of God's Covenants. This is a topic so broad and deep that volumes can be written on it. And it is deserving of more that bantering back and forth trying to prove one point and disprove another. I certainly do not profess to be able to do much more than simply scratch the surface in this post. However, since it is so important and central to all of the discussions on this board, I would hope that we can prayerfully and respectfully, as brothers and sisters in Christ use this paper as a spring board to discuss the topic in a Christian way for it's merits or weaknesses avoiding any personal attacks, judging motives put downs (myself included, unfortunately, I have been guilty). That is my prayer before I clicked the "Post New Topic" button.

God's Purpose for Israel is found in His Covenant with her.
The basic covenant God made with Abraham:
"I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you (Gen 12:2,3)."
The basic purpose of God's original covenant with Abraham was to bless all people on earth.
Paul actually revealed that this was God's announcement of the Gospel to the Gentiles in Gal 3:8.
Israel was to function as a channel for God's universal purpose of salvation.
Every interpretation of Israel's covenant with God must be viewed through the lens of the covenant purpose for Israel.

Even when God added the law, 1000 years after the covenant with Abraham, it did not change this basic covenant.
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise (Ga 3:16-17).

It was at Mt. Sinai, after the exodus experience that God made His covenant with national Israel to include them in the Abrahamic covenant.
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” (Ex 19:5-6).
The "holy nation" and "kingdom of priests" confirms Israel's universal purpose of salvation which was a part of the Abrahamic covenant. She was called to be a holy nation, holy to God, as a priestly nation for God, among the nations. Israel's holy nation status means her particular ethnic and geographic promises are subordinated to the purpose of saving mankind and not relegated to a different and independent goal.

David's prayer for his son, king Solomon hundreds of years later:
May his name endure forever; may it continue as long as the sun. All nations will be blessed through him, and they will call him blessed (Ps 72:17). It was in this sense that Solomon was a type of Christ. Solomon as well as every other king failed miserably in this goal. Only through King Jesus will David's prayer ever be answered.

After Israel had been dispersed from the land and taken captive, the prophets echoed the same universal purpose for Israel's election
“If you will return, O Israel, return to me,” declares the Lord. “If you put your detestable idols out of my sight and no longer go astray, 2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way you swear, ‘As surely as the Lord lives,’ then the nations will be blessed by him and in him they will glory.” (Je 4:1-2).

“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.” (Is 49:6).
Jesus Himself confirms that "Salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22)

Isaiah saw God's plan of universal blessing and peace by means of Israel's election, brought to fruition in his prophecy for the "last days;"
"In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore (Is 2:2-4).

This prediction does not in the least eliminate or diminish the moral condition of loving obedience to God and His law.
In the name of God, Jeremiah confronted a backsliding Israel in Jeusalem with the original condition: I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you (Je 7:23).

Israel's election did not imply the rejection of the other nations, but rather their inclusion. Israel was not chosen for their own salvation, but to lead the whole world to share in her saving knowledge and blessing.
In short, Israel was chosen to represent the attractive character and saving will of the Lord to the Gentiles.

H. H. Rowley captured it beautifully,
The purpose of the election is service, and when the service is withheld the election loses its meaning, and therefore fails...If Israel ceased to acknowledge Yahweh to be her God, then she declared that she no longer wished to be His people. This is well brought out in Jeremiah's parable of the potter (Jer 18:1f). The vessel that fails to realize the intention fo the potter is refashioned into another vessel... Her high calling to be the Chosen People was not the mark of the Divine indulgence or favoritism, but a summons to a task exacting and unceasing, and election and task were so closely bound together that she could not have the one without the other." H. H. Rowley, The Biblical doctrine of Election, pp 52, 51, 59.

Conditional Element of Israel's Covenant
As Rowley mentioned above, Jeremiah clarified the conditional nature of Israel's original covenant made with God at Mt Sinai;
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession.... a holy nation. (Ex 19:5-6).
Obedience to God was a condition from the beginning for national Israel to be included in the Abrahamic covenant.
Jeremiah was simply reviewing that condition in Chapter 18, showing it was still valid.

Finally Isaiah brings us to the climax of Israel's mission in the four prophetic "Songs concerning the Servant of the Lord." (Isaiah 42:1-4; 49:1-6; 50:4-9; and 52:13 - 53:12). For the sake of saving space, I will not include full text of the passages here. However, I would hope that those who are sincerely looking to understand the real mission of Israel, would read each one. You will be blessed.

The Servant stands for both the collective Israel (49:3) and the individual representative Israelite in whom the people of Israel were embodied. Israel as a whole was called to be a collective missionary community of individuals who would channel God's blessing of salvation to the gentiles. But ultimately, only one would prove to fulfill Israel's mission as Isaiah had outlined.

The Servant would serve the Lord, not only in spreading the knowledge of the true God to the ends of the earth (Isa 42:1-4) but also serve God in gathering Israel back to God (49:5, 6) along with the Gentiles.

Now read Isaiah 52:13- 53:12).
Can there be any doubt that Jesus is the fulfillment of Isaiah's Servant?
Just in case there is lingering doubt, Matthew confirms it in Matt 8:17.
This is so profound. By now it should be becoming clear, that only one person could ever be the Servant, Jesus Christ our Lord. He is the only one who could fulfill both the national mission and Individual mission of Israel and Israelites.

It is no accident or coincidence that the king in Israel is called the "son" of God (Psalm 2:6, 7), while Hosea also calls the nation of Israel "son" of God, "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son (Ho 11:1). This is a common Hebrew concept of "corporate personality."

The nation Israel was to be a missionary nation to Serve the world by sharing God's Salvation.
"The Servant" is called Israel (Isaiah 49:1).
But "The Servant." is a type of Christ.
Christ would be the only one to fullfill Israel's mission.
Is Christ the new covenant Israel (Isaiah 49:1)?

Read my post on the "Nation" of Israel ..... all related scripture. You are operating in the SDA theology mindset. Bring your understanding up to date.

Alas, my prayer was not answered.
Nor the issues raised in the paper.
Stephen, I dont know how to make peace with you, short of agreeing with everything you write.
If I have offended, hurt your feelings or what ever,
If I have misinterpreted any Scripture in that post. I would appreciate your input.
You seem to have taken it as your mission to discredit everything I write by puting down me or my faith.
If you really want to discredit me or my post then I challenge you to go through it and point out the errors.
I will go through your paper you mentioned above. If I believe it is consistent with Scripture I will say so. If not I will point out where I believe you are mis-interpreting Scripture. I would hope you would do the same.
If all you want to do is put down my faith, I can take it. And I assure you, it will not prevent me from posting what I believe is truth.

The readers can decide for themselves.
3am

On and on you go. I point out your faulty foundation for no other reason than to help you correct the path, but you continue to charge forwarded with SDA theology and you would most likely go further with additional doctrines once you think you have convinced others on the issue of national Israel.

Do you hurt my feelings .... in no way .... there is no motive on my part for this reason as a basis for my responses to you. I have several friends who are of both hardcore SDA and reformed. You seem to be a good guy, but you must understand that I post for the purpose of presenting sound comprehensive exegesis of the visions of the Bible prophets only. It does not bother me if others do not agree, but I will say why I believe they are on the wrong path ..... especially if I detect matters that may be undermining one's salvation. Other than that I have no addtional purpose.

If I am attacked personally in a caustic and repugnant way regarding what I write by some, I will respond in like manner at times because most who behave like this have ulterior motives and deep seated compulsions that need to be exposed for a number of reasons for themselves and for others who look on. You are not of this brand for the most part as I see it, but your unwillingness to discover the truth about the Lord's people national Israel as presented in the scriptures related to Bible prophecy is a real stumbling block in your path in my opinion.

On this issue, you cannot, and would never be able to convince me differently. You may be able to do it with others, but not me ..... and you have a right to express your position on the matter just as I do. This does not bother me by the way as you may suspect. My beliefs and views do not depend upon what others may think of me or my understanding. So let's agree to disagree on the matter of Israel and move on. I will tell you that there are other SDA views that I do not agree with and I believe that they are not scripturally based. So I cannot tell you that the subject of national Israel is the only one.

3am, you said:
God's Purpose for Israel is found in His Covenant with her.
The basic covenant God made with Abraham:
"I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you (Gen 12:2,3)."
The basic purpose of God's original covenant with Abraham was to bless all people on earth.


my thoughts:

the jews who were wicked and went to the Hell-Fire,.............how were they blessed through Abraham?

and the wicked gentiles also,...........how were they blessed through Abraham?

GALATIANS 3;16
AMPLIFIED BIBLE is easier to understand

14To the end that through [their receiving] Christ Jesus, the blessing [promised] to Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, so that we through faith might [all] receive [the realization of] the promise of the [Holy] Spirit.

15To speak in terms of human relations, brethren, [if] even a man makes a last will and testament (a merely human covenant), no one sets it aside or makes it void or adds to it when once it has been drawn up and signed (ratified, confirmed).

16Now the promises (covenants, agreements) were decreed and made to Abraham and his Seed (his Offspring, his Heir). He [God] does not say, And to seeds (descendants, heirs), as if referring to many persons, but, And to your Seed (your Descendant, your Heir), obviously referring to one individual, Who is [none other than] Christ (the Messiah).(G)

17This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void.(H)

18For if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise.

19What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man].






notice, verse 17...........the Mosiac law did not put any conditions on the un-conditional Promises to Abraham

Dennis,
I am not sure exactly what you are asking.
Are you doubting that Gen 12:3 is true that "all peoples on earth" will be blessed?
Or or you thinking that every Jew who ever lived, will in the end be blessed somehow?

Paul clarified that statement "all nations on earth will be blessed" in Galatians 3:8 where he said that phrase was God announcing the Gospel in advance to Abraham. That means salvation is the blessing that would come through faith in Jesus Christ.
While it is true, not all will accept Christ, all will have the opportunity. They must simply choose to do so.
And I doubt any Christian would deny that the cross of Christ has bee a blessing to all nations, whether they accept it or not.
I mean, the world has got to be a better place because there are true believers present. At least I would hope so.
Sometimes you might wonder. But that is what Revelation is all about, sifting out the true from the false.

I believe that God never forces anyone to follow Him.
He is a God of love and love involves choice.
Those who do not trust him and want to go their own way will be destroyed.
God is merciful, he does not want anyone to perish, but he is also just, not willing to allow anyone into his Kingdom who does not trust him enough to obey. Since disobedience brings suffering and despair.
3am

i'm guessing that ,,, maybe,,, the answer would be that
SOME (not every individual person) of each nation, family, tribe.......would be blessed THROUGH ABRAHAM


Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;



GALATIANS 3;16
AMPLIFIED BIBLE is easier to understand

14To the end that through [their receiving] Christ Jesus, the blessing [promised] to Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, so that we through faith might [all] receive [the realization of] the promise of the [Holy] Spirit.

15To speak in terms of human relations, brethren, [if] even a man makes a last will and testament (a merely human covenant), no one sets it aside or makes it void or adds to it when once it has been drawn up and signed (ratified, confirmed).

16Now the promises (covenants, agreements) were decreed and made to Abraham and his Seed (his Offspring, his Heir). He [God] does not say, And to seeds (descendants, heirs), as if referring to many persons, but, And to your Seed (your Descendant, your Heir), obviously referring to one individual, Who is [none other than] Christ (the Messiah).(G)

17This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void.(H)

18For if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise.

19What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man].






notice, verse 17...........the Mosiac law did not put any conditions on the un-conditional Promises to Abraham

Dennis,
That is true. Abraham's covenant was and still is unconditional. That is because it was made to one seed, Christ. No matter what happens, Jesus was going to come through the line of Abraham.

However, when God made his covenant with Israel as a nation, He offered to include them into his covenant with Abraham, but the only way they could enter into the Abrahamic covenant as a nation was to obey God.
Here is the covenant made at Sinai:
‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites. (Ex 19:4-6).
We cannot deny that covenant was conditional on their obedience.
So when Paul says that the covenant at Sinai which was conditional, does not change the covenant with Abraham which was unconditional, it almost seems like a contradiction. How can it be conditional but not change Abraham's covenant. At first it seems like a problem. But it is not.

When God gave Moses the Law, and he read it to the people saying do this and you will live, the people said, all you have said we will do. The problem is that they had already broken that law. Golden Calf, etc.

But God also gave Moses, not only the Law, but the sanctuary (See Heb 8:1ff).
They should have said, "We have already sinned. What can we do?"
Then he would have said, "go to the sanctuary, there you will receive forgiveness for your sins by my Grace."
Because the sanctuary was built around the sacrifices, the Law in the ark of the covenant, the Shikina Glory [the presence of God] and the mercy seat, between the law and God.
They instead entered into a covenant of works.
The fault was not with God's covenant, it was with the people.

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord (Heb 8:7-9).

In summarizing:

• God made an unconditional promise to Abraham that Jesus would come through his line and through him, all nations on earth would be blessed.
• One Thousand years later God made another covenant with Israel conditional upon her obedience to God.
• This conditional covenant did not change the promise to Abraham. Jesus came through his line.
• But If Israel wanted to be included in Abraham's covenant, they needed to obey God.
• However, they could not obey God's laws.
• That is why God gave them the Sacntuary to show them they become rightous or obedient to God by Grace through Faith in Jesus who was at that time, yet to come. The sacrifices pointed to the Lamb of God.
• So God's original promise, "Through you all nations of the earth will be blessed" which was the announcement of the Gospel, is unchanged and unconditional. Salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

God's purpose and mission for Israel was to establish His kingdom on earth.
The only way Israel could do that was to be obedient to God.
3am

All of the Antichrists will be removed from the land mass that the Lord has chosen. It is for His Israel of faith in Christ to posses into His Kingdom. They will all gather before Mount Zion on the farthest sides of the north.

God promised the PROMISED LAND to Abe and his descendants FOREVER............that was un-conditional..........Abe never agreed to it, or dis-agreed ti it..........He simply believed it.

so, Abe (AND HIS DESCENDANTS) still owns the PROMISED LAND...........FOREVER

That's right and all of Abe (AND HIS DESCENDANTS) are those who love the Lord Jesus Christ out of every nation tribe and tongue. At least until the new heaven and the new earth are created then God owns them and they own that to.

Interesting. I but I have to disagree again.
God said, ‘and go to the land I will show you.’ 4 “So he left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. After the death of his father, God sent him to this land where you are now living. 5 He gave him no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land (Ac 7:3-5). The NT says Abraham got not even a foot of the land God promised. Did God's promise fail? Of course not. Why not?

"By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God....

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth...
16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
(Heb 11:10. 13, 16, 39, 40).

The only way, in my opinion, to get the full picture is to look at how the NT writers interpret the promises.
To me, that is the only safe way to keep from being deceived.

Oops! One more:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel (Heb 12:22-24).

Now that was the clincher for me.
Abraham did not receive his inheritance yet, he was looking forward to a Heavenly Land, and Now, we have come to the Heavenly Jerusalem!
Sounds good to me!

Hey
Where are you.
it is 1:00AM on the west coast USA.
time for me to get to bed.
no more answers tonight.
God Bless
3am

i believe that abe's ELECT NATION (ISRAEL) lived in the LAND.......and they were exiled to Babylon (for their wickedness),,,,,,,,,and they returned.........and a few of them (later) became chistians.........many of the ELECT NATION ISRAEL rejected JESUS , and were scattered again,, out of the LAND.........and after the PROPHESIED long time of being scattered among the nations,,,,,,,,,they (the ELECT NATION ISRAEL, AT THIS TIME THEY ARE ELECT BUT. UN-SAVED) are returning to the LAND as PROPHESIED in the bible

THE ELECT NATION ISRAEL (in the church age) are loved by god, (not because they're good or strong or numerous,,,,,,,,they're not), but because they are Abe's descendants.

just like, .........my children (i have 2 teen girls) are loved, (even though they're not believers), because they are MINE (i'm a believer)

god loves the children of a believer to a 1000 generations...........and curses the children of an un-believer to 3 generations.


it's hard to believe that you reject all this fulfilled prophecy

i'm on the east coast, USA

I agree.

Here is where I see a problem.
What do we do with all of the texts I posted above that clearly say, After Israel Returns to God, then will he gather them into the land? Moses wrote it, Jeremiah wrote it, Isaiah. What do we do we do with those texts. Can we just ignore them?

We are not talking about who God loves. He loves us all. It breaks his heart for one person to be lost. That isnt the question. The question is what do we do with all of the "conditional texts?"

Where does the Bible say that Un-Saved Israelites are the Elect?
Paul shows that Those who are saved by grace [church- Jew and Gentile] are the elect and Israel who pursued it by works has not obtained it. (Romans 11:5-7)

The NT clearly says that the church is the elect!
Paul speaking to the churches at Colosse and Thessalonica:
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.

1 Thessalonians 1:1, 4
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians....
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

But my main question is:
What do we do with all of the texts in the OT that clearly say, After Israel Returns to God, then will he gather them into the land?
God Himself told Moses when he first made the covenant with Israel that Israel's covenant promise was conditional on her obedience to him (Exo 19:5, 6).
What do we do with that?
3am

Who would deny the Lord?

Jeremiah
30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck[the "Assyrian ..... satan's beast], and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.

30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.

30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.

30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.

30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.

30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.

30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.

30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.

30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.

30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Here is what I mean by missing the context of the passage.
The larger context of this passage is the Book of Jeremiah. He had already said,
If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it (Je 18:7-10).

In the passage you quoted, God promised to bring them back into the land.
The larger context says that if God promises to do so, and they do not obey him he will reconsider [KJV repent of] his promise.
Now, does God have to bring them back into the land even if they do not obey? No.
So can God not bring the literal nation into the land, and still be faithful to his covenant? Yes!
Can God make the church into a new Spiritual Israel and fulfill his promises to them, in an even larger way?


Here is what I mean by disregarding the NT interpretation of the promises.
Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy (1 Pe 2:10).
I believe we have to take the entire Bible, both OT and NT and not discard any part of either.
Not even the conditional nature of God's promises to Israel.

Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.
The NT interprets the last days to be now!
Can we agree to take the entire Bible into consideration!
3am

Do you actually think your are an ethinc Israelite 3AM? Your forefathers the prophets? Come on get real. I do not buy your story at all. You are miss-interpreting Jeremiah's writings and are refuting the Lord's very own intentions regarding national Israel. One must take the entire Word of the Lord into the picture and this is exactly what you are not doing. You are arbitrarily applying the Lord's conditions regarding Israel across the board ..... but He does not do this. You have eliminated His continued intentions for Him ..... by your selective interpretations. Caution. The broader context of the scriptures on the subject state otherwise ..... big time. For example, do you really think that Zechariah's visions of 12,13, and 14 apply to your church and not national Israel during the time of the end?

I am Italian/ Spanish. I was just quoting the Bible text.
But God reckons me as a descendant of Abraham so he must be my forefather. You too!!!

Not "my" church. You keep putting words in my mouth.
They will be fulfilled to the true seed of Abraham. Those who have put on Christ! Gal 3:28
All of the promises are Yes in Christ!!! Through Him, the "Amen" is spoken. 2 Cor 2:20
That is it.
God said it, So be it. Amen!
3am

Do you want me to post Zecharia's visions and then have you tell me that the events involve the church? These visions have nothing to do with the church. Where will the visions take place ..... geographical location please? What nation will be attacked? Are you going there for your participation? Will the SDA organization relocate?

You still dont get it.
It isn't about geographical location, it is about Jesus.
The veil in reading the OT only comes off, through Jesus (2 Cor 3)!

OK. Lets go back to Prophecy 101.

First, we have to take off the Veil and look at the prophecies through the eyes of the NT.
How does the NT interpret the geographical prophecies of The OT?
Amos 9, foresees the repairing of David's fallen tent and ruins so they would possess the remnant of Edom. This is a literal geographic place and a last days, unfulfilled visionary prophecy.

How does James interpret it in Acts 15?
After hearing from Paul and Peter how God brought Gentiles into the church, James declares that "God has taken from the Gentiles a people for himself." James used a phrase that had been reserved for Israel as the covenant people of the Lord. Christ believing Gentiles are thus included in God's covenant people. James is not declaring a new arrangement of salvation for the Gentiles. He simply said, "the words of the prophets are in agreement with this. The plural instead of singular "prophets" expands the principle to other prophets and prophecies of the OT. The church has taken up Israel's covenant mission and purpose to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. James is not advocating a "replacement theology." He simply shows the Gentiles taking their place alongside Jewish believers in the Remnant of Israel.

James disregards the territorial and ethnic limitations and declares the Gentiles coming into the church is fulfilling Amos' prophecy of the restoration of Israel and it's ruins being repaired.
He goes further by applying it to the other prophets.
Now dispensationalism comes along and says "no, you cant do that." God has to literally fulfill every word of his promises to literal Israel, even the conditional promises.

The original question was about Zechariah's prophecies and whether I or my church was going to go there.
Use James principle of interpretation and we are there.
OT Israel is fulfilled in Christ and the NT church.
The OT remenant of Edom is fulfilled in The NT Gentiles.
The enemies of OT Israel are now enemies of the church, Babylon etc.
The OT Land is the NT world (According to Jesus, Matt 5:5; and Paul Romans 4:13)

We dont have to go to a place, we go to Jesus.
We are now "Citizens in Israel" (Eph 2).
We have come to Mt Zion
We are in "Jerusalem" of course spiritually, not literally(Heb 12:22).
We are descendants of Abraham (Gal 3:28)


Since you like to ask questions about my ethnicity and location,
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God (Heb 12:22).
Are you on Mt Zion?
Are you a descendant of Abraham?

3am

Mixing the Body of Christ with national Israel as presented in scripture is your problem. Zechariah's visions bear this out as well as many others. The locations and events are literal, not allegorical as you must make them in order to reconcile you position. Neither you or myself are ethnic descendents of Abraham, but only in matters of salvation ..... and not national identity. They are the Israelites and those of Abraham's other primary descendants like Ishamel and Esau. And neither are you and I on mount Zion .... Jerusalem in the Middle East ..... unless you live there. Your spiritual/allegorical applications discard the literal when it suits you. The evnts of the visions of the time of the end in scripture are centered primarily in the Middle East .... not in your town, or in some spiritual non-literal dimension. Literal in the ancient past ..... and just as literal in the future.

Stephen, We are getting to the heart of the matter. It is a hermeneutical issue. I hope we can keep this discussion going. I will continue to overlook the little inuendos and jabs about my motives if we can keep the discussion going because I think it can be worthwhile. The is nothing wrong with clearly delineating the differences between two approaches. Much can be learned from that especially for others looking on.I am puzzled Stephen. You accuse me of making locations allegorical in order to reconcile my position. Forget my position for a moment and interpret Acts 15. JAMES is the one who interpreted the the literal, geographic prophecy of Amos 9 as being fulfilled by Gentiles coming into the church!!! James is the one who disregarded the geographic location and applied it spiritually. I am not the one who did it. I am just observing and learning from him.
Can you accept the fact that James did that?

I never said we were ethnic descendants. Please don't put words into my mouth. I have specifically denied that several times, so let's leave that out of the picture. We do agree on something!

You agree that we are descendents of Abraham only in matters of salvation. I would expand that to matters of the covenant. We are now included in the covenants God made with Abraham and Israel.
Eph 2:11 says as much: "You who are Gentiles by birth... were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people

1. He is talking to Gentiles by birth [ethnic].
2. They were excluded from citizenship in Israel and from her covenants [plural].
3. Now the blood of Christ has changed all of that.
4. The cross changed the fact that Gentiles who were not citizens in Israel are now fellow citizens in Israel.
5. Even though they lived in Ephesus (1:1,2), Paul calls them citizens in Israel.
6. They are not ethnic, or local Middle East, Israelites but they are spiritually citizens in Israel, through His blood.
7. They are even included in the covenants which the had be excluded from.


The Bible does not separate salvation promises from the land promises.
All who are saved in the church are reckoned by God as being on Mt Zion and in Jerusalem.
Heb 12:22 "But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God."
I am not allegorizing this, I am quoting from the Bible. I never said anything about "you and I on mount Zion .... Jerusalem in the Middle East." You added those words, "in the Middle East." Look at the post again, I even said, "of course spiritually, not literally." You put words into my mouth and then shoot them down. This tactic of making it look like I am the wacky one dreaming up all kinds of spiritualization doesnt fly. I would expect that from worldly people, but you are a Christian, one would expect Christians to be fair and honest.
Forgive my righteous indignation, but it would be wrong for me to let that slide.

The Bible does not separate salvation promises from the land promises.
All who are saved in the church are reckoned by God as being on Mt Zion.
The Bible says we "have come to Mt Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem... to God... to Jesus!"
Either we believe that or we dont believe the Bible.
I am not interpreting anything here, just quoting the Bible.

Paul and Jesus both saw the land as a type of the world. (Romans 4:17)
"the meek will inherit the earth." (Mat 5:5)
3am

What do you think of the fact that he uses the word "near"?

"Stephen, We are getting to the heart of the matter. It is a hermeneutical issue. I hope we can keep this discussion going"

I really see no benefit in any additional discussion on the subject. It is a "Biblical" issue and quite obvious to me. The line between us appears to be distinctly drawn. This is not a "jab", but a fact ..... your background and what you have been taught by the SDA church is you nemesis in my opinion. I understand exactly what you believe on the Issue of Israel and most of the organization's other exclusive doctrines. So my reference to your organization is a summary statement for those who know, or can look up the information. You express the same views exactly in your posts. Like I said, I have acquaintences who are members of your church and have known some of them for years. I just do not agree with SDA teaching related to Bible prophecy and some other things ..... I see a far different picture in the scriptures. So that is just the way it is. I read the scriptures for my own understanding and present my views for others to read ..... and not to engage in contests over who is right and who is wrong on Biblical subjects.

Miki, good question, in fact a vital one.
I think the answer is found in the passage itself.
I know it sounds obvious, but the word "near" is used as the opposite of "far away" in the same verse.
The reason I said that is because he had just explained what he means by "far away" in verse 11.
Far away means they were Gentiles... separate from Christ... excluded from citizenship in Israel... foreigners to the covenants.
Then when he said the Blood of Christ brought them near, he described them as just the opposite.
Not separate from Christ (far) but in Christ (near)
Not excluded from citizenship in Israel (far), but citizens in Israel (near).
No longer foreigners to the covenant (far) but members of God's household, even included in the temple (near).

It seems so clear to me that the blood of Christ changed things.
Things that were physical and became barriers are now changed.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

I think it is important to remember this passage began with a favorite text, Eph 2:8,9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.... Therefore your who were once Gentiles....

In the OT, the people of Israel entered into a covenant of works with God. They failed (Heb 8)
And "the law" which means, salvation by law or works, was abolished at the cross!!!
And in so doing, the two, Jew and Gentile, became one, both citizens in Israel and People of the covenants.
When we consider the price Jesus paid for this to take place, can we even fathom rebuilding the wall of separation again and going back to an Old covenant of works after the church is raptured?
For the life of me, I can't believe that some get so hostile against this.

In my thinking, those who insist on a national Israel, going back to the separation between Jew and Gentile are undoing what Jesus paid so dearly to do. I am not judging motives or churches or anything like that. I just think the are somehow unaware of what they are really doing.
Keep in mind the thought that Jesus abolished salvation by works (the law) in Eph 2, to break down the barrier as you read this one:

2 Cor 2: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, (Salvation by keeping the law) came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit (the cross) be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness (Grace)!...
13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The only way to understand the OT covenant is to read it "in Christ."
Jesus did something at the cross that changes the way we read the OT.
Why do so many want to read it through the eyes of those rabbis who read it as though the cross never happened?

The "unsearchable riches" of what Jesus has done to abolish the barrier and gather "all mankind" to himself, cant begin to compare to gathering people into a land when all they have to do, by grace through faith is be gathered into Jesus and be heirs of all the promises.

God Bless you Miki
3am

Stephen,
You are so predictable it is almost funny were it not so pathetic.
Whenever you are confronted with a point or passage which contradicts your view, you refuse to answer.
You ignore all of the carefully worked our Scriptural reasons and insert your own ridiculous words, making them seem to have said something which was never said. Then you vehemently attack those words, (your own) attempting to make the other person look foolish, ignorant, unspiritual and uneducated and lump them in as a cult.
Then you start attacking the person and/ or their church.
You should know that this approach is bearing false witness.
Then you claim you do not "engage in contests over who is right and who is wrong on Biblical subjects."
You are a child of God. He expects more that that from you.

I stand by what I have written until someone shows me otherwise from Scripture.
Hopefully, those who read this thread will judge for themselves from Scripture whether or not it is true and not from your dishonest attacks.
I would think most people will realize that anyone who goes to that extent to discredit people trying to discuss Scriptures must be standing on pretty shaky ground in terms of their understanding of the issue.
3am

I won't comment as my thoughts are just that...my thoughts..But thanks for answering.