Full Version: Jesus Said "call No Man Father"
And now heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's DENNIS!
QUOTE(Father Onesimus @ Nov 23 2007, 01:21 PM) [snapback]132133[/snapback]
And now heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's DENNIS!
you're doing exactly what Jesus told you not to do.
"you're doing exactly what Jesus told you not to do."--Dennis Mann
Thank you Dennis. Your premise has been succinctly and clearly stated.
Jesus said "Call no man on earth 'father'."
Let me ask you first Dennis: Do you believe all the Scriptures are inspired? Are they in essence the writings of God, and inerrant, and non-contradictory? Or do you believe the Scriptures can contradict themselves?
I'm certain you and I both agree that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves, as they were inspired by God, and God WAS NOT confused as to His meaning!
Am I correct in that assumption?
Thank you Dennis. Your premise has been succinctly and clearly stated.
Jesus said "Call no man on earth 'father'."
Let me ask you first Dennis: Do you believe all the Scriptures are inspired? Are they in essence the writings of God, and inerrant, and non-contradictory? Or do you believe the Scriptures can contradict themselves?
I'm certain you and I both agree that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves, as they were inspired by God, and God WAS NOT confused as to His meaning!
Am I correct in that assumption?
why do you call yourself father?
who are you the father of?
who are you the father of?
QUOTE(Father Onesimus @ Nov 23 2007, 05:21 AM) [snapback]132133[/snapback]
And now heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's DENNIS!
ROFLMBO!!!!
Wait... FO, are you going to start a new thread stage for one of the all time classic topics: "Who is Bloody Mary"?
LOL!
Caneman
QUOTE(dennis mann @ Nov 23 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]132231[/snapback]
why do you call yourself father?
who are you the father of?
Quid pro quo please. I let you express your opinion, then I asked a couple of questions. Please answer, then ask your own questions which I will answer.
GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT Revelation 20:11-15 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
King James Bible
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:9
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
23:1-12 The scribes and Pharisees explained the law of Moses, and enforced obedience to it. Pride was the darling, reigning sin of the Pharisees, the sin that most easily beset them, and which our Lord Jesus takes all occasions to speak against. For him that is taught in the word to give respect to him that teaches, is commendable; but for him that teaches, to demand it, to be puffed up with it, is sinful. How much is all this against the spirit of Christianity! The consistent disciple of Christ is pained by being put into chief places. But who that looks around on the visible church, would think this was the spirit required? It is plain that some measure of this antichristian spirit prevails in every religious society, and in every one of our hearts.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven, &c.—To construe these injunctions into a condemnation of every title by which Church rulers may be distinguished from the flock which they rule, is virtually to condemn that rule itself; and accordingly the same persons do both—but against the whole strain of the New Testament and sound Christian judgment. But when we have guarded ourselves against these extremes, let us see to it that we retain the full spirit of this warning against that itch for ecclesiastical superiority which has been the bane and the scandal of Christ's ministers in every age.
Wesley's Notes
23:8-10 The Jewish rabbis were also called father and master, by their several disciples, whom they required, To believe implicitly what they affirmed, without asking any farther reason; To obey implicitly what they enjoined, without seeking farther authority. Our Lord, therefore, by forbidding us either to give or receive the title of rabbi, master, or father, forbids us either to receive any such reverence, or to pay any such to any but God.
People's New Testament
23:9 Call no man your father upon earth. Another honorary title. The scribes delighted to be called Abba, father. So the priests of the Roman Catholic Church. So do all who welcome such honorary titles as Rev. Right Rev. Lord Bishop, etc. These are all forbidden. No apostle was ever so called.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.call. 2Ki 2:12 6:21 13:14 Job 32:21,22 Ac 22:1 1Co 4:15 1Ti 5:1,2 Heb 12:9
for. 6:8,9,32 Mal 1:6 Ro 8:14-17 2Co 6:18 1Jo 3:1
Isaiah 9:6
King James Bible with Strong's Numbers
For unto us a child is born unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor The mighty God The everlasting FATHER The Prince of Peace
כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשרה על־שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שר־שלום׃
Onesimus ........ you call yourself 'father' on other forums.
King James Bible with Strong's Numbers
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death
יש דרך ישר לפני־איש ואחריתה דרכי־מות׃
Change the 'father' .................. to 'brother' .................. brother?
[url="http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/7965.htm"]
[/url]
[url="http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/7965.htm"]
[/url]
King James Bible
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:9
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
23:1-12 The scribes and Pharisees explained the law of Moses, and enforced obedience to it. Pride was the darling, reigning sin of the Pharisees, the sin that most easily beset them, and which our Lord Jesus takes all occasions to speak against. For him that is taught in the word to give respect to him that teaches, is commendable; but for him that teaches, to demand it, to be puffed up with it, is sinful. How much is all this against the spirit of Christianity! The consistent disciple of Christ is pained by being put into chief places. But who that looks around on the visible church, would think this was the spirit required? It is plain that some measure of this antichristian spirit prevails in every religious society, and in every one of our hearts.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven, &c.—To construe these injunctions into a condemnation of every title by which Church rulers may be distinguished from the flock which they rule, is virtually to condemn that rule itself; and accordingly the same persons do both—but against the whole strain of the New Testament and sound Christian judgment. But when we have guarded ourselves against these extremes, let us see to it that we retain the full spirit of this warning against that itch for ecclesiastical superiority which has been the bane and the scandal of Christ's ministers in every age.
Wesley's Notes
23:8-10 The Jewish rabbis were also called father and master, by their several disciples, whom they required, To believe implicitly what they affirmed, without asking any farther reason; To obey implicitly what they enjoined, without seeking farther authority. Our Lord, therefore, by forbidding us either to give or receive the title of rabbi, master, or father, forbids us either to receive any such reverence, or to pay any such to any but God.
People's New Testament
23:9 Call no man your father upon earth. Another honorary title. The scribes delighted to be called Abba, father. So the priests of the Roman Catholic Church. So do all who welcome such honorary titles as Rev. Right Rev. Lord Bishop, etc. These are all forbidden. No apostle was ever so called.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.call. 2Ki 2:12 6:21 13:14 Job 32:21,22 Ac 22:1 1Co 4:15 1Ti 5:1,2 Heb 12:9
for. 6:8,9,32 Mal 1:6 Ro 8:14-17 2Co 6:18 1Jo 3:1
Isaiah 9:6
King James Bible with Strong's Numbers
For unto us a child is born unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor The mighty God The everlasting FATHER The Prince of Peace
כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשרה על־שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שר־שלום׃
Onesimus ........ you call yourself 'father' on other forums.
King James Bible with Strong's Numbers
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death
יש דרך ישר לפני־איש ואחריתה דרכי־מות׃
Change the 'father' .................. to 'brother' .................. brother?
[url="http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/7965.htm"]
[/url]
[url="http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/7965.htm"]
[/url]
GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT Revelation 20:11-15 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
King James Bible
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:9
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
23:1-12 The scribes and Pharisees explained the law of Moses, and enforced obedience to it. Pride was the darling, reigning sin of the Pharisees, the sin that most easily beset them, and which our Lord Jesus takes all occasions to speak against. For him that is taught in the word to give respect to him that teaches, is commendable; but for him that teaches, to demand it, to be puffed up with it, is sinful. How much is all this against the spirit of Christianity! The consistent disciple of Christ is pained by being put into chief places. But who that looks around on the visible church, would think this was the spirit required? It is plain that some measure of this antichristian spirit prevails in every religious society, and in every one of our hearts.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven, &c.—To construe these injunctions into a condemnation of every title by which Church rulers may be distinguished from the flock which they rule, is virtually to condemn that rule itself; and accordingly the same persons do both—but against the whole strain of the New Testament and sound Christian judgment. But when we have guarded ourselves against these extremes, let us see to it that we retain the full spirit of this warning against that itch for ecclesiastical superiority which has been the bane and the scandal of Christ's ministers in every age.
Wesley's Notes
23:8-10 The Jewish rabbis were also called father and master, by their several disciples, whom they required, To believe implicitly what they affirmed, without asking any farther reason; To obey implicitly what they enjoined, without seeking farther authority. Our Lord, therefore, by forbidding us either to give or receive the title of rabbi, master, or father, forbids us either to receive any such reverence, or to pay any such to any but God.
People's New Testament
23:9 Call no man your father upon earth. Another honorary title. The scribes delighted to be called Abba, father. So the priests of the Roman Catholic Church. So do all who welcome such honorary titles as Rev. Right Rev. Lord Bishop, etc. These are all forbidden. No apostle was ever so called.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.call. 2Ki 2:12 6:21 13:14 Job 32:21,22 Ac 22:1 1Co 4:15 1Ti 5:1,2 Heb 12:9
for. 6:8,9,32 Mal 1:6 Ro 8:14-17 2Co 6:18 1Jo 3:1
Isaiah 9:6
King James Bible with Strong's Numbers
For unto us a child is born unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor The mighty God The everlasting FATHER The Prince of Peace
כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשרה על־שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שר־שלום׃
Onesimus ........ you call yourself 'father' on other forums.
Change the 'Father' ............ to 'brother' ........... if you 'are able' at this point ..........
brother?
King James Bible with Strong's Numbers
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death
יש דרך ישר לפני־איש ואחריתה דרכי־מות׃
King James Bible
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:9
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
23:1-12 The scribes and Pharisees explained the law of Moses, and enforced obedience to it. Pride was the darling, reigning sin of the Pharisees, the sin that most easily beset them, and which our Lord Jesus takes all occasions to speak against. For him that is taught in the word to give respect to him that teaches, is commendable; but for him that teaches, to demand it, to be puffed up with it, is sinful. How much is all this against the spirit of Christianity! The consistent disciple of Christ is pained by being put into chief places. But who that looks around on the visible church, would think this was the spirit required? It is plain that some measure of this antichristian spirit prevails in every religious society, and in every one of our hearts.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven, &c.—To construe these injunctions into a condemnation of every title by which Church rulers may be distinguished from the flock which they rule, is virtually to condemn that rule itself; and accordingly the same persons do both—but against the whole strain of the New Testament and sound Christian judgment. But when we have guarded ourselves against these extremes, let us see to it that we retain the full spirit of this warning against that itch for ecclesiastical superiority which has been the bane and the scandal of Christ's ministers in every age.
Wesley's Notes
23:8-10 The Jewish rabbis were also called father and master, by their several disciples, whom they required, To believe implicitly what they affirmed, without asking any farther reason; To obey implicitly what they enjoined, without seeking farther authority. Our Lord, therefore, by forbidding us either to give or receive the title of rabbi, master, or father, forbids us either to receive any such reverence, or to pay any such to any but God.
People's New Testament
23:9 Call no man your father upon earth. Another honorary title. The scribes delighted to be called Abba, father. So the priests of the Roman Catholic Church. So do all who welcome such honorary titles as Rev. Right Rev. Lord Bishop, etc. These are all forbidden. No apostle was ever so called.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.call. 2Ki 2:12 6:21 13:14 Job 32:21,22 Ac 22:1 1Co 4:15 1Ti 5:1,2 Heb 12:9
for. 6:8,9,32 Mal 1:6 Ro 8:14-17 2Co 6:18 1Jo 3:1
Isaiah 9:6
King James Bible with Strong's Numbers
For unto us a child is born unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor The mighty God The everlasting FATHER The Prince of Peace
כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשרה על־שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שר־שלום׃
Onesimus ........ you call yourself 'father' on other forums.
Change the 'Father' ............ to 'brother' ........... if you 'are able' at this point ..........
brother?
King James Bible with Strong's Numbers
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death
יש דרך ישר לפני־איש ואחריתה דרכי־מות׃
I am touched that you have a genuine concern for my soul. I truly am. I can be sardonic in my humor at times, so I want to be very clear here, that I am entirely serious.
It is admirable that you would take your time to share with me that which you deem so important for my benefit.
Metatron, I will ask you first, the same question I asked Dennis: "Do you believe THE WHOLE BIBLE is the Word of God, inerrant and non-contradictory?
It may seem a silly question to even ask of strong believers, but I pray you will both bear with me a little, and indulge my seemingly superfluous question.
It is admirable that you would take your time to share with me that which you deem so important for my benefit.
Metatron, I will ask you first, the same question I asked Dennis: "Do you believe THE WHOLE BIBLE is the Word of God, inerrant and non-contradictory?
It may seem a silly question to even ask of strong believers, but I pray you will both bear with me a little, and indulge my seemingly superfluous question.
Father is the translated word the original word is pathvr. If you call your dad a pathvr you might get slapped. I know for a fact that if you call your mother a mhvthr you will get slapped. So don't call anyone on earth pathvr. And remember who your father in heaven is and give the proper reverence that is due Him.
By the way, most folks still just call me 'Leonard'!
QUOTE(Father Onesimus @ Nov 25 2007, 06:14 AM) [snapback]132612[/snapback]
By the way, most folks still just call me 'Leonard'!
Leonard
Why is it Dennis will never answer a question?
My father passed away a few years ago from cancer. He was a wonderful father. He had flaws just like all humans do, but he was my father and I was proud to be called his son. I miss my father especially when my sons are playing sports. My father just loved to watch them. My father would have had so much enjoyment watching his grandchildren grow up. I think I will say a prayer for him. Thanks Dennis for reminding me of the memories I have of my father.
Does my reference to my Father go against what scripture tells us Dennis?
God Bless,
K.D.
My father passed away a few years ago from cancer. He was a wonderful father. He had flaws just like all humans do, but he was my father and I was proud to be called his son. I miss my father especially when my sons are playing sports. My father just loved to watch them. My father would have had so much enjoyment watching his grandchildren grow up. I think I will say a prayer for him. Thanks Dennis for reminding me of the memories I have of my father.
Does my reference to my Father go against what scripture tells us Dennis?
God Bless,
K.D.
why do you call yourself father?
why did you call me boy?
why did you call me boy?
QUOTE(dennis mann @ Nov 28 2007, 05:02 PM) [snapback]133513[/snapback]
why do you call yourself father?
why did you call me boy?
I already told you, that if you prefer 'old chap' to 'old boy', I'll use 'old chap'. Is your ego so fragile as all that dear fellow?
Secondly I am called "Father" because it is biblical.
Now I've answered; it's time for you to answer my question: Do you believe the WHOLE BIBLE TO BE INERRANT? Or do you ONLY believe that verse that says "Call no man father"?
call no man father..........that is biblical
Answer the simple question: DO YOU BELIEVE THE WHOLE BIBLE TO BE INERRANT?
Why does this question scare you?
I've asked it now at least 4 times, and you've danced around it. I can only conclude that you do NOT believe the Bible, and that any Scripture you cite means less to you than it does to ME!
I do not think it is a very hard question to answer; but then again, maybe it's an "IQ thing."
STOP PLAYING THE IDLE FOOL, and answer: DO YOU BELIEVE THE ENTIRE BIBLE?
Why does this question scare you?
I've asked it now at least 4 times, and you've danced around it. I can only conclude that you do NOT believe the Bible, and that any Scripture you cite means less to you than it does to ME!
I do not think it is a very hard question to answer; but then again, maybe it's an "IQ thing."
STOP PLAYING THE IDLE FOOL, and answer: DO YOU BELIEVE THE ENTIRE BIBLE?
Dennis, what are you afraid of. These are very simple questions. Are you not capable of just answering these very simple questions?
I understand you have a rage against the Catholic Church, you have made that very clear. But lets deal with this one topic just by itself, on its own merit.
Please answer the questions.
God Bless,
K.D.
I understand you have a rage against the Catholic Church, you have made that very clear. But lets deal with this one topic just by itself, on its own merit.
Please answer the questions.
God Bless,
K.D.
you're not my father.
i'm not your boy or fool
you're not the FATHER GOD IN HEAVEN.
you're doing exactly what Jesus told you not to do.
i'm not your boy or fool
you're not the FATHER GOD IN HEAVEN.
you're doing exactly what Jesus told you not to do.
QUOTE(dennis mann @ Nov 29 2007, 09:19 AM) [snapback]133659[/snapback]
you're not my father.
i'm not your boy or fool
you're not the FATHER GOD IN HEAVEN.
you're doing exactly what Jesus told you not to do.
Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Did Paul disobey Jesus by calling Isaac Father?
QUOTE(dennis mann @ Nov 29 2007, 08:19 AM) [snapback]133659[/snapback]
you're not my father.
i'm not your boy or fool
you're not the FATHER GOD IN HEAVEN.
you're doing exactly what Jesus told you not to do.
Brother, you've got MAJOR ego issues! I never said you were my boy, or a fool. I called you 'dear boy' once, and said--I will repeat it since you seem not to have understood the sentence the first time--I will call you 'old chap' if you prefer. And I asked you not to 'play the fool.' I think you only PRETEND to be too stupid to understand and answer the simple question! So stop PLAYING the fool, and simply answer (one word will suffice, and your posts indicate the ability to spell 'yes' or 'no'): DO YOU BELIEVE THE WHOLE BIBLE TO BE INERRANT?
THIS IS THE FIFTH TIME (AT LEAST) I HAVE ASKED YOU.
Further, I give you perfect permission simply to call me Leonard. I require NO ONE to address me with any title at all. I answered your question, it's time for you to stop being a coward, grow some 'you know whats,' and answer the question I have asked you repeatedly.
Just in case you've missed all the other times:
6. DO YOU BELIEVE THE WHOLE BIBLE TO BE INERRANT?
7. DO YOU BELIEVE THE WHOLE BIBLE TO BE INERRANT?
8. DO YOU BELIEVE THE WHOLE BIBLE TO BE INERRANT?
9. DO YOU BELIEVE THE WHOLE BIBLE TO BE INERRANT?
10. DO YOU BELIEVE THE WHOLE BIBLE TO BE INERRANT?
Will you answer or is simple honesty and integrity something that is beyond your ken?
P.S. If you need me to, I will explain the 'big words.'
you're not the FATHER GOD IN HEAVEN
you can't boss me around
i'm not your boy
you're not my father
if you're father, who are your children?
you can't boss me around
i'm not your boy
you're not my father
if you're father, who are your children?
Dear Mr. Mann,
You poor fellow, that Onerous man has upset you. I'm nice though and I'm only little. Could you please tell me whether you believe the Bible is inerrant?
Kind Regards,
excubitor (with cherries and sugar on top)
You poor fellow, that Onerous man has upset you. I'm nice though and I'm only little. Could you please tell me whether you believe the Bible is inerrant?
Kind Regards,
excubitor (with cherries and sugar on top)
the pope is not god.
mary is not the MOST HOLY
transubstantiation is a lie.........Jesus never was a LAWBREAKER.
mary is not the MOST HOLY
transubstantiation is a lie.........Jesus never was a LAWBREAKER.
Dennis . . . read this web link and answer the question please.
Click here: Can You Believe in Inerrancy AND Equality By Dan Gentry Kent - Issue 000 p. 13
http://www.christianethicstoday.com/Issue/...0is%20Inerrancy?
What is Inerrancy?
Inerrancy is a somewhat difficult concept, easier to claim and/or defend than to define. People have taken three approaches in dealing with the difficulty posed by the frequently used term.
1. There are broad, general definitions. Inerrancy has been called "a metaphor for the determination to trust God's Word completely."[iii] That certainly qualifies as a broad, general definition. Thus, inerrancy can be applied to the Bible in the sense of its being an authentic, dependable record of God's self-disclosure. This seems to be what many lay people mean who use the term. To them "I believe in inerrancy" means "I believe the Bible." Clark Pinnock said this of Bernhard Ramm: "For him inerrancy always meant something quite simple. It signaled one's commitment to trust the Bible and to take it seriously."[iv]
2. There are more specific, detailed definitions. David Dockery is a Southern Baptist leader with unquestioned conservative credentials. He has a fine basic definition: "The Bible in its original autographs, properly interpreted, will be found to be truthful and faithful in all that it affirms concerning all areas of life, faith, and practice."[v]
This definition is attractive for several reasons. It is a positive statement. It says that the Bible has to be properly interpreted. It argues that the Bible is true in what it affirms, in what it teaches, not merely in what it records or reports. Dockery calls this critical inerrancy, not naive inerrancy (see below).
3. Still, a more precise, technical definition is sought by many people. In fact, Dockery himself has a longer and much more involved definition.[vi] The most famous such definition is of course that of the Chicago Council on Biblical Inerrancy in 1978.[vii] It is certainly not simple. There is a preface, a five-part summary, and then nineteen explanatory or qualifying articles, plus four pages of exposition.
Click here: Can You Believe in Inerrancy AND Equality By Dan Gentry Kent - Issue 000 p. 13
http://www.christianethicstoday.com/Issue/...0is%20Inerrancy?
What is Inerrancy?
Inerrancy is a somewhat difficult concept, easier to claim and/or defend than to define. People have taken three approaches in dealing with the difficulty posed by the frequently used term.
1. There are broad, general definitions. Inerrancy has been called "a metaphor for the determination to trust God's Word completely."[iii] That certainly qualifies as a broad, general definition. Thus, inerrancy can be applied to the Bible in the sense of its being an authentic, dependable record of God's self-disclosure. This seems to be what many lay people mean who use the term. To them "I believe in inerrancy" means "I believe the Bible." Clark Pinnock said this of Bernhard Ramm: "For him inerrancy always meant something quite simple. It signaled one's commitment to trust the Bible and to take it seriously."[iv]
2. There are more specific, detailed definitions. David Dockery is a Southern Baptist leader with unquestioned conservative credentials. He has a fine basic definition: "The Bible in its original autographs, properly interpreted, will be found to be truthful and faithful in all that it affirms concerning all areas of life, faith, and practice."[v]
This definition is attractive for several reasons. It is a positive statement. It says that the Bible has to be properly interpreted. It argues that the Bible is true in what it affirms, in what it teaches, not merely in what it records or reports. Dockery calls this critical inerrancy, not naive inerrancy (see below).
3. Still, a more precise, technical definition is sought by many people. In fact, Dockery himself has a longer and much more involved definition.[vi] The most famous such definition is of course that of the Chicago Council on Biblical Inerrancy in 1978.[vii] It is certainly not simple. There is a preface, a five-part summary, and then nineteen explanatory or qualifying articles, plus four pages of exposition.
I'm bowing out. No sense trying to carry on an intelligent conversation with Dennis. I hope Dennis starts taking the medication he desparately needs. Such medication may be of 'comfort' to him; I Thes. 5:14.
Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Did Paul disobey Jesus by calling Isaac Father?
Did Paul disobey Jesus by calling Isaac Father?
Father's question is brutal but fair IMO.
I can see why Dennis is so reluctant to answer it because he has no good alternatives.
Being the nice guy that I am I will describe the two scenarios that will inevitably unfold when the answer is yes or no.
1/ Yes, the Bible is the inerrant word of God.
OK, so people lived to be 900 years and giants used to roam the Earth, we should kill people if they get it into their heads to worship other Gods. Sorry, that is not correct. We should kill them and everybody in their town and if we are too soft to undertake this gruesome venture we should be killed also. ( Not exactly the best guideline for our foreign policy I suppose.)
We should not wear clothes made out of different fabrics, we should not covet livestock (?), we should denounce all our current knowledge about biology, astronomy, physics and a whole host of other scientific fields because they contradict the Bible and we should not suffer witches to live. I haven't seen many lately, but just to be on the safe side, let's set fire to old women gathering herbs anyway as our friendly Christians ancestors were so inclined to do for five straight centuries.
I want you to ponder this for a minute. Good, God fearing Christians, much like yourselves burned people alive for imaginary crimes, by the thousands. And they found their justification for it in the Bible.
2/ No, but oh well, it is all a bit of a metaphor really.
That won't fly brothers and sisters. Either the Bible is an ordinary book, written by ordinary men or it is not.
Do you put your faith in people who claimed to be 'inspired' and will you tumble down that rabbit hole and land on your fanny in reality or do you stick to the idea that this is a dictate from the All Mighty.
Make up thou mind and be ready for the consequences.
I can see why Dennis is so reluctant to answer it because he has no good alternatives.
Being the nice guy that I am I will describe the two scenarios that will inevitably unfold when the answer is yes or no.
1/ Yes, the Bible is the inerrant word of God.
OK, so people lived to be 900 years and giants used to roam the Earth, we should kill people if they get it into their heads to worship other Gods. Sorry, that is not correct. We should kill them and everybody in their town and if we are too soft to undertake this gruesome venture we should be killed also. ( Not exactly the best guideline for our foreign policy I suppose.)
We should not wear clothes made out of different fabrics, we should not covet livestock (?), we should denounce all our current knowledge about biology, astronomy, physics and a whole host of other scientific fields because they contradict the Bible and we should not suffer witches to live. I haven't seen many lately, but just to be on the safe side, let's set fire to old women gathering herbs anyway as our friendly Christians ancestors were so inclined to do for five straight centuries.
I want you to ponder this for a minute. Good, God fearing Christians, much like yourselves burned people alive for imaginary crimes, by the thousands. And they found their justification for it in the Bible.
2/ No, but oh well, it is all a bit of a metaphor really.
That won't fly brothers and sisters. Either the Bible is an ordinary book, written by ordinary men or it is not.
Do you put your faith in people who claimed to be 'inspired' and will you tumble down that rabbit hole and land on your fanny in reality or do you stick to the idea that this is a dictate from the All Mighty.
Make up thou mind and be ready for the consequences.
Thanks Visarion, but I think you miss the point of the argument. I believe the entire Bible to be Divinely Inspired. If you would like to talk about these other issues, start a thread on them; I think it would be FUN!
QUOTE(Father Onesimus @ Dec 9 2007, 04:53 PM) [snapback]135784[/snapback]
Thanks Visarion, but I think you miss the point of the argument. I believe the entire Bible to be Divinely Inspired. If you would like to talk about these other issues, start a thread on them; I think it would be FUN!
It is on Father !
Let the verbal jousting begin and let Bible quotations be thrown about with reckless abandon.
"In this corner, weighing 170 pounds and in black trunks (of course) Satan's minion......VISARION !"
(Crowd boos loudly)
I'll start a thread today called; The Big Bible Battle Round 1
See you there and thanks for playing.
QUOTE(Visarion @ Dec 9 2007, 06:25 PM) [snapback]135790[/snapback]
QUOTE(Father Onesimus @ Dec 9 2007, 04:53 PM) [snapback]135784[/snapback]
Thanks Visarion, but I think you miss the point of the argument. I believe the entire Bible to be Divinely Inspired. If you would like to talk about these other issues, start a thread on them; I think it would be FUN!
It is on Father !
Let the verbal jousting begin and let Bible quotations be thrown about with reckless abandon.
"In this corner, weighing 170 pounds and in black trunks (of course) Satan's minion......VISARION !"
(Crowd boos loudly)
I'll start a thread today called; The Big Bible Battle Round 1
See you there and thanks for playing.
Well, I peaked in on that thread, and frankly it deteriorated into a much nonsense within the first page, although one fellow did quite well in citing the academic material which is used for textual criticism, and shows the text of the New Testament as we have it today to be quite reliable.
Still, it is a very different thing merely to prove the text is reliable, than it is to garner evidences for divine inspiration.
By the way, one fellow presented the idea that the New Testament texts were originally in Aramaic. This was a theory which gained a little traction 20 years ago or so, but subsequent discoveries have led to it's abandonment by almost every credible scholar laboring in this area of research. This person also said we don't have any of the originals, and with recent discoveries at the Sorbonne and at Toledo, this may no longer be true. We have now got a complete copy of the Matthean Gospel (approximately half found in an old archive at the Sorbonne, and about 1/2 found at Toledo), dated to A.D. 62-65! This is so early, that it is not out of line to wonder if it is not indeed the Mathean autograph.
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