The day of the Lord is a future time frame with time lapse including many events and not just one day.

Luke 21:31 "So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

Luke 21:35 "For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Isaiah 2:12 . For the day of the LORD of hosts [Shall come] upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up -- And it shall be brought low --

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD [is] at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

Isaiah 34:8 For [it is] the day of the LORD's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.

Jeremiah 46:10 For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries. The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood; For the Lord GOD of hosts has a sacrifice In the north country by the River Euphrates.

Lamentations 2:22 "You have invited as to a feast day The terrors that surround me. In the day of the LORD's anger There was no refugee or survivor. Those whom I have borne and brought up My enemies have destroyed."

Ezekiel 13:5 "You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the LORD.

Ezekiel 30:3 For the day [is] near, Even the day of the LORD [is] near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.

Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD [is] at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.

Joel 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand:

Joel 2:11 The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong [is the One] who executes His word. For the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision.

Amos 5:18 . Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! For what good [is] the day of the LORD to you? It [will be] darkness, and not light.

Amos 5:20 [Is] not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light? [Is it not] very dark, with no brightness in it?

Obadiah 1:15 " For the day of the LORD upon all the nations [is] near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.

Zephaniah 1:7 Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD; For the day of the LORD [is] at hand, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests.

Zephaniah 1:8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.

Zephaniah 1:14 . The great day of the LORD [is] near; [It is] near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out.

Zephaniah 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the LORD's wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy, For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land.

Zephaniah 2:2 Before the decree is issued, [Or] the day passes like chaff, Before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD's anger comes upon you!

Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.

1 Cor 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Cor 1:14 (as also you have understood us in part), that we are your boast as you also [are] ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thess 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 . But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Matthew 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jeremiah 3:16 "Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days," says the LORD, "that they will say no more, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit [it,] nor shall it be made anymore.

Jeremiah 3:18 "In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

Jeremiah 5:18 . " Nevertheless in those days," says the LORD, "I will not make a complete end of you.

Jeremiah 31:29 "In those days they shall say no more: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.'

Jeremiah 33:15 'In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David A Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

Jeremiah 33:16 In those days Judah will be saved, And Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this [is the name] by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

Jeremiah 50:4 " In those days and in that time," says the LORD, "The children of Israel shall come, They and the children of Judah together; With continual weeping they shall come, And seek the LORD their God.

Jeremiah 50:20 In those days and in that time," says the LORD, "The iniquity of Israel shall be sought, but [there shall be] none; And the sins of Judah, but they shall not be found; For I will pardon those whom I preserve.

Ezekiel 38:17 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Are [you] he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them?

Joel 3:1 "For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,

Zechariah 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard [that] God [is] with you." ' "

Mark 13:17 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Mark 13:24 " But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

Revelation 9:6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

Ezekiel 30:3 For the day [is] near, Even the day of the LORD [is] near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.

Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD [is] at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.

Joel 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand:

Joel 2:11 The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong [is the One] who executes His word. For the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision.

Amos 5:18 . Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! For what good [is] the day of the LORD to you? It [will be] darkness, and not light.

Amos 5:20 [Is] not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light? [Is it not] very dark, with no brightness in it?

Obadiah 1:15 " For the day of the LORD upon all the nations [is] near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.

Zephaniah 1:7 Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD; For the day of the LORD [is] at hand, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests.

Zephaniah 1:8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.

Zephaniah 1:14 . The great day of the LORD [is] near; [It is] near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out.

Zephaniah 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the LORD's wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy, For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land.

Zephaniah 2:2 Before the decree is issued, [Or] the day passes like chaff, Before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD's anger comes upon you!

Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

1 Cor 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Cor 1:14 (as also you have understood us in part), that we are your boast as you also [are] ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thess 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 . But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

What, did you hear someone say it was just one day did you?

Many who push all of the resurrections and the Lord's wrath to the far end of the tribulation period do this. Have you not heard? Most are post-tribulationalists and some are amillennialists (no millennium) .... just one big bang and it will be over in one day. Preterists even claim that the day has come and gone. It is essential to identify time valuations like the "Day of the Lord" ..... a period of extended time in which many things will take place.

I push the Day of the Lord which you described in the above scriptures to commence after the tribulation with good reason. Because the SCRIPTURE SAITH that the Day of The Lord starts after the tribulation.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now when does this occur. At the sixth seal which is the heavenly signs which are AFTER the Great Tribulation.

This scripture is further supported by
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

Notice what must happen BEFORE the awesome Day of the Lord? The heavenly signs must occur. You even quoted this yourself in your scriptures but obviously you did not read it thoroughly. So the heavenly signs are a massive unparallelled miracle of power and might of God, never seen on the earth. These are given so that we may clearly know when the wrath of the Lamb and the day of the Lord commences. What do you suppose marks the commencement of the Day of the Lord Stephen?

I have no problem agreeing that the day of the Lord is not a single day but a period of time but don't try to tell me that the day of the Lord occurs any time before the heavenly signs which are AFTER the great tribulation. The Day of the Lord, grim though it be, is actually a salvation of man, because if we read about the Great Tribulation it says that if those days were not shortened there would be no flesh saved. Who shortens that day? God himself for the sake of the elect. Does God shorten his own day. Clearly he intervenes in mans affairs by shortening the days. It is his intent to save mankind. The fact that the Great Tribulation would have wiped out man proves that the Great Tribulation was not instigated by God but by evil beings.

I have no doubt Stephen, that despite this evidence you will continue to reject every single argument no how well presented or excellent it may be. I have seen this before. Prophecy think tanks start to produce reams of prophecy buff material which all revolves around the pretrib rapture. When a new argument comes in in support of the post trib rapture it brings a kind of mini crisis to the pretribber, but what does he do. He has so much vested in his old belief ie. web pages written, bold statements made, that it is easier to just concoct a spurious solution to the new argument than it is to clean away the mountain of incorrect material and lose face.

I call it the mountain of dung syndrome. A man started shovelling dung into his backyard thinking it would nourish his vegetables but then one day he realised that he had too much dung and that his backyard was in fact a mountain of dung. But it was too hard then to dispose of all the dung, the personal cost of digging it up and carting it away was too great. So he just left it there, and when more dung came his way from his neighbours it was easier to just pile the mountain a little bit higher than it was to come clean and cart it all away.

Evolutionists do that all the time. A false theory is presented. Everybody starts to write about it in books and journals, they set up a course to teach it. In fact there is a whole department devoted to teaching it. But then when evidence which contradicts the theory starts to come in, it is easier to concoct a spurious explanation that the gullible public will swallow than it is to dismantle all the courses and departments and have all the scientists eat humble pie.

Come clean and admit you are wrong Stephen. Surely you can see that it is too hard to kick against the pricks.

Please do not generalise. It is not true that ALL people who believe in the correct timing for the wrath and rapture, believe it will be ONE DAY. It is time period, as in the days on Noah.

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days (TRIBULATION) , and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground.

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after the seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

THAT was the tribulation:



Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Mat 24:37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

AS WE KNOW THIS IS AFTER SEVEN DAYS!Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.
RAPTURE


Now we have moved BEYOND the seven days tribulation and the rapture has occurred, now THE WRATH

Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.

Gen 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dried.

It took some time for the wrath of God, it was not just A DAY.
We also see that the Ark did not lift off the earth BEFORE the seven days (tribulation) but AFTER the seven days tribulation.

C

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened

So its very clear in the Bible WHEN the day of the Lord will be. Just read it!!
The sun is darkened BEFORE the day of the Lord , which is AFTER the tribulation.

Everybody who does not believe this, what is written clearly in the Bible, is just working to promote their own doctrines.

C

C, do you view the scriptures that you quoted as literal? The Sun being darkened, and the moon turned to blood? Just curious, Mouser

Michael, the words "turned into blood" points to a type and shadow, (because the moon will not turn into blood) but I think that it has both a literal (red moon maybe, and the sun will be covered , maybe with smoke? ) and spiritual fulfillment. I have not asked about this , so I cannot tell you. My opinion will be just that: An opinion and man.
But if we ask the Holy Spirit , He WILL lead us into all truth., That is why He came !


C

Thanks for adding emphasis to my post C, by quoting exactly the same scriptures as I did in exactly the same way I did. We must be on the same wavelength or else you are ripping off my ideas without giving me some credit. Sorry if I'm being petty or barking up the wrong tree but this not giving original authors credit really bugs me.

I must have missed that post of your Ex, I did see this however posted by (I think I am correct, but do not shoot me if I am wrong ) Superfundy. It struck me as so very clear and now (with all of your permission) I will add this to my scripture knowledge.

Thank you , even though I missed it, for your truthful post.

in Christ
C

The day of the Lord begins with His hour of trial ..... the tribulation period. Not after it. Matthew 24:29 tells what will happen just after the tribulation period. So does Revelation 20. The time then extends with His millennial kingdon on the earth for 1,000 years. Many judgment events will take place during the Lord's period of wrath against an unbelieving world .... His day of vengence against those who refuse to believe the truth about Him. Zechariah 12,13, and 14 exemplifies this truth as well as all of Revelation's account of the same. He will open the seals and command all of the judgments on the earth Himself. This is very apparent as Revelation's account of the period unfolds. The judgments are coming from the Lord. This how the day of the Lord will begin. His day will begin with His wrath and then He will establish His millennial kingdon on the earth.

Matthew
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

No worries C, Maybe I ripped it off superfundy without realising it. We all learn from one another

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This sounds like the holding tank is in heaven not on earth...

Maybe you should look at
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

I don't think there is any wind in heaven. This passage is talking about terrestial wind and the terrestial sky. In the KJV heaven is another word for sky. It expresses that God's people will be gathered from the farthest extremities of the earth and the sea. That there is no corner of the earth where God's people shall not be gathered from. The four winds of the heaven is just another way of saying the four corners of the earth as this next passage in Revelation shows.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Good try!

Stephen, we can read it for ourselves that it is not as you say. Its very clear in the Bible:


Act 2:20[b] The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before [/color] the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days [color=#FF0000]the sun shall be darkened

So , if we listen to you, these Scriptures are lying, but we know that they do not. SO read them:

The sun gets darkened BEFORE the day of the Lord, which is AFTER the tribulation.

Its very clear.

C

I've always felt it was to do with the understanding that people would have of God that reject him, the Sun referencing the NT understanding, and the Moon, referencing the OT understanding, but I could be mistaken. Also another thing to consider, is that we operate in a heavenly condition, so everytime it talks of Heaven, it doesn't mean where God is, of course he's omnipresent, so he's everywhere, but I think you understand what I mean. There is a reference to this in Rev. about the Heavens being rolled together as a scroll, meaning the religious element that was working, I believe it says as a fig casteth her untimely leaves. If anyone has tried to even pull off one you will know it's not easy, which leads me to believe they did something to cut themselves off prematurely from God. Just food for thought.

Miki, the Bible here says: The angels will gather together the elect from the four winds (North East , South , West) The elect is obviously NOT in heaven ( a place) , but on earth when they are collected. So this "heaven" speaks of where the elect are seated.

It will be useless collecting the elect in heaven to go to heaven.

This proves that the Bible teaches that heaven is here as well: Its "one end"
People get confused because they see heaven ONLY as a place in the sky

C

Yes: When we read Revelation, we see that God speaks of the unsaved as those "in the earth" (flesh) .
If we do not understand that, we see that there is a problem, because then it would mean that some scriptures speaks of judgement against ALL who live in the earth, and seeing that , that includes Christians, it cannot be correct.

Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

So this obviously does not include Christians, if that meant physical dwelling on this planet.
No: It means the opposite of : seated in heavenly places.

C

C-

Since the "woman" stands on the moon...maybe the moon turning to blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord is a representation of the saints being killed by the beast. Martyrdom...all over the world. This would seems to connect quite well with what's about to happen.

When does the BIBLE say the Day of the Lord starts?


Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.


Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

It truly blows my mind how someone can be so in love with their own doctrine that they will willingly suppress the truth in order to maintain their pride. Pride goeth before destruction.

Then they attack those who are actually sharing the truth and calls them false-cultists.....man oh man.....no fear of God at all, it seems.

After the tribulation- the wrath comes. The sun and moon are darkened and the heavens are rolled away as a scroll.....this CANNOT happen 7 years BEFORE....there would be no tribulation, there would be no mark of the Beast...there would be no trial for the body of Christ in earth...if there was no sky. LOL!

Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance,

Undeniable to those who love the truth.

Excellent.

[edit to add] Many like to use most any passage in the OT that refers to "that day" as referring to the day of the Lord. While there are a few passages where we can make that connection, it is most informative to limit it to only those passages that refer specifically to "the day of the Lord" or some such phrase.

In this way, you will find the connection (almost in every passage) to the cosmic signs of the 6th seal. It is, as BrotherJon has said, inescapable.

C, you very well may be right about the blood part, being persecution of the overcomers. Again another very good post by you also Bro. Jon, through out the Bible, the day of the Lord has always referenced a day of wrath, sometimes on different time periods.

"Maybe you should look at
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

I don't think there is any wind in heaven. This passage is talking about terrestial wind and the terrestial sky. In the KJV heaven is another word for sky. It expresses that God's people will be gathered from the farthest extremities of the earth and the sea. That there is no corner of the earth where God's people shall not be gathered from. The four winds of the heaven is just another way of saying the four corners of the earth as this next passage in Revelation shows.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."


The geography is on the earth as stated above. This is the correct rendering of the gathering of the mortal "elect" of national Israel [the Lord's brethren] just after the tribulation period as noted in Matthew 24. This is not a resurrection, but a gathering on the earth of those mortals who survive the tribulation period and they will re-populate the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth.

The next gathering in Matthew 25 will be of the mortals of the nations who survive the tribulation period. These will be separated and the believing sheep will enter the kingdom [they will re-populate the nations during the Lord's millennial kingdom] ..... the unbelieving goats will not.

Are you suggesting that the Church isn't on earth when the rapture occurs?? Where are we then (IYO)??

The Body of Christ will be immortalized at the time ..... those living believers who are ready and all of the dead in Christ just before the Lord's hour of trial begins ..... and next those who will turn during the tribulation perod who will be martyred will be resurrected at the end of the period.

The first group will consist of the 24 elders (leaders) and the great multitude from every nation [both the living and the dead in Christ]. The living believers not appointed to the Lord's wrath will not enter the tribulation period and the dead in Christ obviously will not either. These will "come out" just before the first destruction event on the earth takes place. MBG's "great city". This coming out is noted in Revelation 18:4 and is the same as the Lord's "harpazo" action described by Paul and associated with His promise in Revelation 3:10. These are already around the throne in heaven before the Lord's judgments begin on the earth [chapter 8] and they are noted several times as Revelation unfolds. They will observe the Lord's hour of trial and judgments taking place on the earth and will return with Him to engage in the battle of Armageddon at the end of the period.

Those martyred for their faith and who become believers during the tribulation are seen waiting under the alter ..... not around the throne. These will all be resurrectred at the end of the tribulation period and added to the Body of Christ. The Lord will not withdraw His offer of salvation during the tribulation period ..... in fact much truth will be spread on the earth in parallel with the deceptions, vexation, killing, and destruction ..... so these will turn to the Lord during the period and most will be beheaded for their faith because they will not worship satan's beast. These will be few in number. Most during the period will not repent and turn to the Lord and these will be killed in unbelief and lost forever ..... billions. The Lord said that this gospel of the kingdom will be preached unto all of the world and then the end of the period will come. He is speaking of the time of the end in His discourse ..... not a time frame of the last 2,000+ years. His discourse is all about the time of the end of which the beginning is still pending. Not all humans will be killed during the tribulation period and those who survive will be gathered and separated by the Lord at the end of it. The believers will enter His millennial kingdom and the unbelievers will not.

The immortal Body of Christ (the Church) will exist in parallel with the Lord's millennial kingdom of mortals on the earth. They will have access to the earth during the period, but will also inhabit His entire creation just as all who are eventually saved to inhabit eternity with a new earth and a new universe. The Body of Christ will be made immortal sooner and the rest will follow after His earthly millennial kingdom. All of the spirits of the unbelieving dead from the beginning of human existence will be resurrected to the second death at the end of His millennial reign. These (the tares) will be burned in His lake of fire and destroyed forever. All of the believing immortals (the wheat) from all ages will then enter eternity and time will be no more.

At what time? (I will assume you mean at the end of the tribulation).



Right, at the end of the tribulation, I'm with ya.



Oh yeah, I forgot, you assume (without scriptural backing) that believers in the tribulation aren't "ekklesia".

And since no one can prove a negative, I guess your stuck with the error.



The 24 elders aren't even human as far as we know. They cannot "represent" the church in a literal interpretation of the scriptures.

The thinking has sprung up as a result of such assumptions as this from Thomas Ice, quoting Charles Ryrie:
[i]"The 24 elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are best understood as representative of the church. Dr. Charles Ryrie explains:

"In the New Testament, elders as the highest officials in the church do represent the whole church (cf. Acts 15:6; 20:28), and in the Old Testament, twenty-four elders were appointed by King David to represent the entire Levitical priesthood (I Chron. 24). When those twenty-four elders met together in the temple precincts in Jerusalem, the entire priestly house was represented. Thus it seems more likely that the elders represent redeemed human beings, . . . the church is included and is thus in heaven before the tribulation begins."

If these elders refer to the church, then it would mean at least two things: 1) It would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the tribulation and would require a chronological gap for them to perform their heavenly duties during the seven-year tribulation. 2) It would also show that the completed church was already in heaven before events of the tribulation begin."

Anyway....

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This is the KJV which is unfortunately messed up on the greek tense here. It uses the first person plural, when actually the third person plural is used. The NASB (among others) reflects this fact.

Rev 5:8-10
8 And when He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 "And Thou hast made THEM to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and THEY will reign upon the earth."

Now, lest that be to doubtful for you, let me have you take note of who else is singing this song in vs. 8.

Would you think that the four living creatures would sing the song in the first person plural as well?

I think not. They are ALL angelic beings, not even human.

Whoops, there goes another pre-trib prop.



Your right, but your timing is wrong. Thats why this deception is so deep. It is simply ignoring the verses of scripture which clearly place the rapture after the tribulation which bring you to your error.

Look beyond chapt 18, and see that the rapture is......WHEN??

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is clearly at the END of the tribulation, when the day of the Lord begins.

So yes I agree, the rapture is (likely) in chapter 18, just as the day of the Lord begins,



Yeah, I agree, except they are awaiting the martyrs of the Church during that period.



No question.



Well, that's a kind of silly statement. He is simply speaking of the end of time. I don't know what other "end" we would apply there. If your trying to say that the "gospel of the kingdom" isn't being preached now, well, that's another topic, and probably another thread.



If you mean that Mat 24 refers to the 70th week, and that we are still awaiting the beginning of that time, I agree.



In their mortal bodies, agreed.



Will Abraham be included in this assumption?

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Assertions such as the one you just made always amaze me. You deny even the Fathers their rightful inheritance. And for what? Just to keep the timing of the rapture ahead of the 70th week.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.



Scripture??



Agreed.



Oh that's convenient. So after the MK will be considered "the kingdom of God" too??

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

I think ya need to study that passage a little closer...don't you? It is not a parable of what happens AFTER the MK, but it is actually happening NOW and will happen at the end of the tribulation.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

By the end of the MK the harvest will have been over for 1000 years.

Know how I know?

Because Jesus explains the parable:
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The word for world here is aion, or "age" in case you feel that the "end of the world" refers to the white throne judgement. It does not.

We do agree on some issues, but certainly not all of them. Study on.

Revelation
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire [These are the tares. This will take place at the end of the Lord's millennium ..... the end of this present earth and universe ..... the world].

Revelation
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [These are the wheat]

21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new . And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


I believe you have the "end of the world" in the Lord's parable in the wrong place. This present earth and universe will still be functioning during the Lord's millennium.

Not suprising.



If your trying to convince me that the parable of the wheat and tares occurs here in Rev 20, I have already shown you why that cannot be. It is not "the end of the world" but the end of the age. Which is the end of the 70th week. The same "end" to which Jesus refers in Mat 24:6. Remember, the disciples asked about the end of the age. Jesus refers to the passing away of heaven and earth, but tells us that (at that time) no man knew when that would happen. It is mentioned in Revelation and we now know that it will happen after the MK.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The MK is another age, another dispensation.

There is nothing about the burning of the tares at the end of the tribulation period. Only the beast and false prophet get burned in the Lord's lake of fire at the time. The bodies of those you speak of will become bird food at Armageddon ..... but their spirits will not be burned in the lake of fire until after the Lord's millennial kingdom. This is made quit clear in Revelation 19 and 20. You are placing the burning of the tares in the wrong time frame. This will not happen until this present earth and universe are destroyed ..... the end of the world. The world will not end after the tribulations of those days, but will continue on for another 1,000 years. The Lord is looking longer than you are in His parable and Revelation confirms this fact.

There is nothing about it in Rev 20 either, yet you say there is. I know it is a convenient interpretation for you, but it just doesn't wash. Sorry.



Hell is also on fire too ya know? Your pressing this really hard because if your wrong, much of your pet doctrine is shown wrong too. I am sorry to tell you, it is shown wrong by allot more than just this.



So what?? All that is clear is that they are cast into hell:
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is simply hell. Yes, they will be cast into the lake of fire along with death and hell, but that happens allot later. The lake of fire contains ressurrected beings.

When does this happen in the MK?
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The end of this "aion".That is "the end of THIS age".

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Same here. There is this age, and there is an age to come. See??





It is made clear that this interpretation is being forced upon it. But there is no reason to believe the interpretation is correct unless you don't want to acknowledge what it will mean to the pretrib rapture. You know as well as I do, that those parables place the ressurrection of the just at the end of "the age".

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.



No, you are.



Sure, you just keep telling yourself that.

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So we will shine in the kingdom of our Father AFTER the kingdom of our Father has ended.

Nice try, but your plain ol' wrong here.



Exactly. This is the time that Jesus was teaching about (sheesh):

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:




Only in your imagination I'm afraid brother.

"There is nothing about it in Rev 20 either, yet you say there is. I know it is a convenient interpretation for you, but it just doesn't wash. Sorry."

Can you read? Just what does Revelation 20:15 state about those who will be sent to the lake of fire ..... and when will it happen? Obvious to me that you are unwilling to learn the truth and choose to stay in your post mortum theology.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Your being obtuse. And your not answering my points. To keep insisting that the Lords parables refer to the end of the MK is patently false. You harp on and on about false teachings, yet you spout them regularly.

This is the worst I have seen from you thus far.

Lets just look at all these parables in order, and see if your correct:

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Surely you don't see this as post millenial?? I certainly hope not.

This is obviously present age doctrine.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

We've already proven you wrong here, so lets move on.

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

So the kingdom of God here, starts off small, and grows. Sounds like the Church to me, but maybe I'm not as spiritual as you are?

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Again, small to large. This certainly does not resemble the MK. It will start off quite large.

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

This is what Jesus did, right?

Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Again, a small thing that is worth a great deal. Not the MK, certainly.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Oh that's the Church, no doubt.

Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Severing the wicked from among the just. Yeah, I can see why you need to twist these scriptures to refer to something other than what they obviously refer to.

Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Mmmhmm.

Some people are disrespectful and nasty...

But outside of that comment...a thought.. Why couldn't the sun and moon be affected twice. One at the beginning and once at the end?

Also concerning the gathering from the four winds that you say isn't from heaven since there's no wind there.. (l'm not sure how anyone knows that) but if this is the judging of the sheep and goats and the Christians have already been raptured what will we be doing at that time? And since nobody alive has a new body how will the angels do the gathering?

Because to say that would indicate that we think that God could be shortsighted NOT to have told us that.
Like God saying: Oh My, I forgot to tell them there will be TWO, now they will get all mixed up with My prophecies!! Why was I so forgetful !!!!! I do not blame them for their confusion, because there is no clear time-line anymore!. I should have been more careful !!!! "

Sorry Miks, God is all powerful and He knows all, He also wrote the Bible and it is PERFECT. Every . and every i .....they are all in the place they must be.


There will be only the one darkening of the sun AFTER the tribulation BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Read it for yourself.

Your gentle friend Stephen does not see this.

C

You don't have to be sarcastic and cutting...

If he states it "twice" why would he have to say. "I said it twice? It's just a thought. Perhaps it's darkened twice. It's not unfeasible considering what's going on.

We have no indication of this happening twice. The Bible says that the sun will be darkened after the tribulation and before the day of the Lord. Why I know this is true, is that even in the story of Noah, you have seven days "tribulation" , BEFORE the "day of the Lord" And we know we are told " As in the days of Noah"

2) In the type and shadow of Jericho there are "six days" (6000 from Adam) walking around the city and on the seventh day (where we are now) they then walk seven times (tribulation 7 years) around the city before the day of the Lord (Walls fall down and the city is destroyed) and then we also see the words:(rapture)
Jos 6:5 .......and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall go up every man straight before him.

The Jewish boys are in the furnace that was heated up seven times hotter (tribulation ) and a fourth "man" was with them (Jesus in His people)

You can follow the story of Esther in types and shadows, I am almost there where the Beast is revealed and the Bride goes into battle .

Gen 41:53 And the seven years of plenty, that was in the land of Egypt, came to an end. ( I have a feeling we are about here now )


Gen 41:54 And the seven years of famine began to come, according as Joseph had said: and there was famine in all lands; but in all the land of Egypt there was bread. (Tribulation )
Gen 41:55 And when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread: and Pharaoh said unto all the Egyptians, Go unto Joseph; what he saith to you, do.
Gen 41:56 And the famine was over all the face of the earth (The whole planet is going into the tribulation this time, like in Esther: "all the provinces of the king" ) : and Joseph opened all the store-houses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine was sore in the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:57 And all countries came into Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was sore in all the earth.

Grain = Word . Much as people do not want to hear this, but Joseph is a type and shadow of the firstfruit company that will feed the Word to his brethren that sold him out. (Some will repent of this and turn again to God):Gen 42:3 And Joseph's ten brethren went down to buy grain from Egypt.

I just realised: Ten coming from the ten kings. (the ten magma regions of earth as in the Earth Charter)

Also Agab (Beast) and the Harlot (Jezebel) ruled over the 10 tribes of Israel.

Miki there are just too many types and shadow, combined with scriptures that relate to the timing of the tribulation. All tell us that we must go through it, because this is the plan of God for His people.

You know that every time that Israel (a type and shadow for the church) went astray, then God sent them to Babylon (The beast kingdom) What happened there: They repented. They ALWAYS repented and then God restored them.




We need that now and no matter how hard we howl, we are going into Babylon. For seven years, and there we will repent. AFTER the seven years,and AFTER our repentance, the sun will be darkened and God will stand up in His wrath and put an end to this world, because this world would have done what it needed to do: They were designed as a vessel of dishonour, that will persecute the people of God into repentance. After that: They have fulfilled their purpose and they will be destroyed, but seeing that God's people is not destined for wrath (just tribulation) He will rapture us and keep us safe, when the heavens flee and the earth burn

C

You speak in circular references. First one way and then the other.

Maybe you would be kind enough to lift them out.

C

A labyrinth of truth and error. I have already detcted this in your posts. You need to do the lifting yourself.

I will then take that as a "No , I cannot, I will only insult you"
That is also OK Stephen, I do not hate you for it, I am also not upset with you brother, I don't want to say I pray for you (that would only anger you ) even if I do.

in Christ
C

"But outside of that comment...a thought.. Why couldn't the sun and moon be affected twice. One at the beginning and once at the end?"

You are correct about this truth. The passage in Revelation 6:12-17 is the first and Matthew 24:29-30 is the second. These views are 7 years apart. The carefull reader will notice the differences:

Beginning - Revelation 6:12-17
The beginning of the tribulation of those days
earthquake [note 8:5]
darkness: caused by the destruction on the earth [note 8:7-13]
stars [fallen angelics] falling to the earth [note 9:1-21, 12:4,9]
humans intransigent attitude and their hiding from the Lord's coming wrath [note 8:7-13, 9:1-21, 16:1-21]
no sign of the Son of Man
earth dwellers do not see Him
no gatherings

Ending - Matthew:29-30
after the tribulation of those days
no earthquake [note Rev 16:18. This quake at Armageddon will occur before the end of the tribulation]
darkness: caused by the cosmic disturbances.
stars [cosmic] falling [cosmic disturbances], not to the earth [just one would obliterate the earth]
sign of the Son of Man
earth dwellers see Him
humans mourn when they see Him
gatherings of the mortals of Israel and the nations that are left

Your post is a great comfort to Miki

C

This is a stretch but plausible....The Moon into blood - did that happen when man stood on the moon? Flesh, or blood, was on the moon.


........Whirlwind

When the sun does not shine upon the earth things get dark. This can be caused by thick overcast clouds and from debris in the atmosphere [especially from destruction on the easth including earthquakes and volcanic eruptions]. When the sun is blocked the moon does not reflect and this can be partial with a red appearance and even total obscurity. These will be the conditions that will cause the descriptions of the sun and the moon in scripture at the time of the end. There will be no physical changes in either body.

QUOTE(' post='132057 @ Nov 22 2007, 06:43 PM) [snapback]132057[/snapback]

The day of the Lord is a future time frame with time lapse including many events and not just one day.

To be absolutely precise Stephen.

The "day of the Lord" is "His millennial reign" . A day to the Lord is a thousand years.

It is the three and a half year lead up to that millennial reign that will destroy the world and get everyone who survives ready for His coming.

When the end time "son of man" is revealed then it will begin and will get underway.

IT will begin sometime in July. When the Lords prophets shut up heaven and turn all the water supplies on earth to blood. Then it is on.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night.


1 And He said to me, "Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you."

17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.


6 "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

Much more than just His millennial reign is presented. He is coming to judge the world for unbelief. He is coming to send strong delusion upon those who refuse to believe the truth about Him. He is coming to destroy MBG's "great city" in one day. He is coming to send grave destruction upon the earth. He will send fire upon the earth. He will cause the earth to quake with devastating results. He is coming to destroy the beast and his followers at Armageddon. Need I say more .....I could you know. Have you ever heard of these things .... is part of your Bible missing. The day of the Lord will begin and will involve much wrath against unbelieving humanity ..... just before His millennial reign. Read much more about the day of the Lord in the O.T.. Do you have a copy of the O.T.? If so, how could you possibly miss the descriptions of the day of the Lord's wrath and judgments? There is more written about His coming judgment than there is about His millennial kingdom which will be established just after. I think you had better check out the "lie" pile that you describe to find out just where the lies are coming from.

Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

In 1335 days the world will be destroyed and removed and will never rise again.

The day of the Lord is still His millennial reign. Those who are not aware will be swept away by the "birth pains" of His millennial reign coming. The birth Pain only last 1335 days.

3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

The day of the Lord will begin with 2,550 days of his wrath and judgments and then continue on including His millennial reign for 1,000 years .... and beyond. Man's day [rule over the earth] will come to an end. The Lord will take back the earth, rule it Himself .... and then create a new earth that will last forever.

Before tribulation:

1) He raises up the First-fruits in His image.

Rev 14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.


In tribulation:

2) He uses them to bring a remnant out of a harlot system.

Joshua 6:22 And Joshua (Jesus) said unto the two men that had spied out the land, (2 witnesses) Go into the harlot's house, (Harlot Church System) and bring out thence the woman, (Christian Remnant) and all that she hath,

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

In great tribulation:

3) He uses the harlot to purify or crucify the remnant.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder.

In the day of the Lord’s wrath:

4) He preserves a remnant of the remnant alive.

5) He uses the beast system to destroy the harlot.

6) He destroys the beast system.



The first thing that happens in the day of the Lord’s wrath is He gathers His people into the ark. (as in the days of Noah) During this period He uses the world beast to destroy both the religious and secular harlots. When the wrath of God will be poured out for a year on the world beast system that has persecuted His people. (Isa.34:8) For the Lord hath a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. (63:4) For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. (6) And I trod down the peoples in mine anger, and made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.